Debunked: 9/11: Flight 77 "suspicious" Passenger list

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Oxymoron

Banned
Banned
Flight 77.. this is truly a bizarre passenger list.

All four flights have extremely low occupancy rates and those passengers that are on there are like a 'who's who' of military and technical.

Also where is the passenger list showing the hijackers?

http://911review.org/Wiki/Flight77Passengers.shtml
 

captfitch

Senior Member.
Remember, the hijackers specifically chose low pax count flights. And this was at a time in the airline industry when loads were typically fairly low for some flights, higher others.
 

JonJson

Active Member
Well, if you look at the occupations of the passengers of Flight 77, you get a strange feeling that something is wrong with this picture:

For a random collection of passengers, this is a very impressive manifest. We use the results of Killtown's work on the passenger list, which was drawn from the canonical sources of 9/11 victims biographical information on the Internet: the numbers in square brackets are the numbers in Killtown's listing .

  • a senior scientist with the US Navy, retired Army. [12] A third-generation physicist whose work at the Navy was so classified that his family knew very little about what he did each day. They don't even know exactly why he was headed to Los Angeles on the doomed American Airlines Flight 77.
  • a Boeing engineer in Integrated Defense Systems; he served in the US Air Force for four years, and for the National Security Agency for 14 years. [36]
  • a director of program management at Raytheon, US Army (ret.) [28] who helped develop and build anti-radar technology for electronic warfare. Raytheon's website notes that they are leaders in every phase of the Precision Strike kill chain; are the world's leading organization at Missile Defense; provides state-of-the-art technology to detect, protect and respond to terrorism and provide Homeland Defense; and that their technology forms the eyes, ears and brains of Intelligence, Surveillance and Reconnaissance systems, from the Predator to the Global Hawk.
  • a retired naval aviator who worked for Veridian Corp., a defense contractor, who was working with military aircraft and weapons systems [56] A Navy test pilot who worked on the development of the F18. "He had done a number of black programs -- which means top-secret," said his son. "We were given no details."
  • an electrical engineer with defense contractor BAE Systems. [41] largest technical support supplier to the US Navy. BAE Systems is an industry leader in flight control systems, which are present on nearly every US military aircraft. BAE electronic warfare systems such as their jamming system are vital to the US Navy operations.
  • 2 Boeing propulsion engineers: a lead Propulsion Engineer and a Project Manager with Boeing Satellite Systems, [32] and a lead engineer for Boeing Satellite Systems. [40]
  • a software architect with Lockheed Martin Corp., US Army (ret.). [42] A manager in the systems and software architecture department.
  • a Vice President for software development, EMSolutions and retired Lieutenant Commander, Navy. [18] He spent 20 years in the US Navy, where he developed high capacity signal processors, multi-processor application software and innovative signal processing algorithms. EMSolutions maintains a facility security clearance, and has contracts with Ballistic Missile Defense Organization (BMDO) and BAE Systems.
  • a technical group manager at Xon Tech, a defense-related research and development firm [46] He previously worked as an engineer at the Naval Research Lab. Also a technical manager of Xon Tech [53].
  • a retired Navy Rear Admiral, former Navy pilot, and retired American Airlines pilot. [24]
  • a senior executive at the Defense Department. [29] A budget analyst/director of the programming and fiscal economics division who worked at the Pentagon.
  • a former Navy electronics technician worked as a Department of Defense contractor with Vrendenburg Co. in Washington [57]
  • managing partner and co-founder of Stratin Consulting. and retired Marine Corps Lieutenant and Vietnam War veteran [26]
  • a lawyer who had worked with the Navy Judge Advocate General's Corps. [49]
  • and of course, there was Barbara Olson, attorney, CNN Commentator and wife of the United States Solicitor General. [39]
The odds against this being a random group of 53 American Airlines passengers are simply astronomical! There are more top secret security clearances here than in most medium-sized cities in America.

[/EX]
I am not much of a 9/11 buff but when I saw this list my first thought was that it looks like a list of my friends and neighbors. Then I looked it up and saw it was the flight out of Dulles and I realized that I was right. I work right across from Dulles Airport off of Route 28. Nothing really odd looking to me about any of these people flying out of this airport. It is minutes away from one of the nations major hubs for the defense industry. We have a very high percentage of retired military personnel in this area as well.
 

Cairenn

Senior Member.
It was a mid week flight to DC, right after the school year had started. Not a time for families to be traveling. The folks traveling would either be someone with business in DC or someone traveling back home to DC.

My Brother In Law was on his way to DC that morning. He has been appointed to deputy Sec of the Interior and his hearing before Congress was the next day.

I wonder what sort of a mix there would be on any Sep morning
 

Jazzy

Closed Account
"Odds" again... How come someone always wins the lottery, when the odds against them winning are always so great?

Early morning flights being sparsely-populated and only part-full of go-getters? How likely is that? LOL.
 

MikeC

Closed Account
I vaguely remember reading somewhere that the odds of getting any random poker hand are about 52 million:1 (I think...)

And yet Millions of people get them every day!!
 

JonJson

Active Member
It was a mid week flight to DC, right after the school year had started. Not a time for families to be traveling. The folks traveling would either be someone with business in DC or someone traveling back home to DC.

My Brother In Law was on his way to DC that morning. He has been appointed to deputy Sec of the Interior and his hearing before Congress was the next day.

I wonder what sort of a mix there would be on any Sep morning

The flight originated at Dulles and was headed for Los Angeles. Barbara Olson the last person on the list was flying to Los Angeles for the taping of the show "Politically Incorrect" nothing odd about that really just a bit of bad luck.
 

Mick West

Administrator
Staff member
One can only say this is unusual if you compare it to other passenger lists for the same flight on the same day of the week.
 

JonJson

Active Member
One can only say this is unusual if you compare it to other passenger lists for the same flight on the same day of the week.

The airline reported that the plane going out on a Tuesday morning with only 1/3 of the seats full is consistent with their flights on previous Tuesdays. I would say for a Tuesday flight it was probably made up mostly of business travelers and because the Defense industry is such a major factor here in the DC area most business travelers would work for the Defense industry.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Airlines_Flight_77

The capacity of the aircraft was 188 passengers, but with 58 passengers on September 11, the load factor was 33 percent. American Airlines said that Tuesdays were the least-traveled day of the week, with the same load factor seen on Tuesdays in the previous three months for Flight 77.
 

TWCobra

Senior Member.
Of the other three flights, two were from Boston and one was from Newark. The passenger lists were probably representative of an early morning business flight from those two cities as well. If so, Flight 77 is unremarkable, particularly when you consider the number of times "Retired" appears after those names.
 

JRBids

Senior Member.
The capacity of the aircraft was 188 passengers, but with 58 passengers on September 11, the load factor was 33 percent. American Airlines said that Tuesdays were the least-traveled day of the week, with the same load factor seen on Tuesdays in the previous three months for Flight 77.

I wonder if the terrorists picked Tuesday because of that reason. Fewer passengers to contend with if they tried to stop them.
 

Jazzy

Closed Account
I wonder if the terrorists picked Tuesday because of that reason. Fewer passengers to contend with if they tried to stop them.
Or maybe OBL was aware of the exercises planned for that day. He moved in those circles, and had a network of his own. A happy coincidence?
 

lotek

Active Member
this is prolly the 8th time ive viewed this thread and tried to think of something witty to say that will add to the content of the thread, but alas I have failed and honestly all ive got is that to see this as anything BUT logical for the location and time of the flights does nothing but raise questions about the sanity of the one asking the questions... its sorta just that simple.

who flies early? people with somewhere to go.
who shells out money for plane tickets? people with something to do.
who works in the area? members of the largest local industries.

id perhaps be suspicious if the planes were packed to the seams with stoned masturbaters/homeless/canon fodder.....

Edit: Jazzy, as a pilot, do they calc the weight at time of loading and load less fuel if there is less weight/people or do they fill it up the same regardless? this is purely speculation(red pill time) and drawing up a conspiracy of my own but perhaps it could be planned on a tues to have less passengers to contend with and more fuel to explode due to less having been burned from hauling fewer fat asses across the sky... sweet i just made my own conspiracy doodle, time to post it to youtube before he answers my question!

Editedit: it really bothers me that engineers and technical people get treated like nazis by ct followers regularly pretty much across the board. i bet you all like your iphones, this forum(maybe not this one...infowars perhaps), and the computer you posted to it via....... ya know what i mean. gps in your phone was made by a team of evil airforce engineers. ditto for the internet, hell most all digital technology wouldnt exist were it not for the initial push from nasa, a division of the USAF....

propulsion engineer is not a nefarious title. nor is one who works with satellites or navigation software. these are rightfully heros... examples of prospering human ingenuity. people worthy of being looked up to by children, unlike shit stain athletes etc.
 

Jazzy

Closed Account
as a pilot, do they calc the weight at time of loading and load less fuel if there is less weight/people or do they fill it up the same regardless?
The former. Less load, less fuel. Plus a variable amount extra depending on traffic and weather, but I'm not a pilot*. :)

* I built, flew, and crashed a bamboo and polythene rogallo hang glider once. Does that count?
Bamboo that fails in compression makes a good shock absorber as it makes chinese lampshades. Did you know that?
 

Pete Tar

Senior Member.
Flight 77.. this is truly a bizarre passenger list.

All four flights have extremely low occupancy rates and those passengers that are on there are like a 'who's who' of military and technical.

Why is it suspicious and what is the suspicion?
Is it that they must have had incriminating knowledge that the government had to engineer a major national disaster to kill them for? Did they all receive flight tickets saying they'd won a prize and they were on there way to a special award ceremony, or was this just part of their normal daily routine?

Was any research done into justifying the claim of suspicion, or was it just enough to say 'it's suspicious'?
 

lotek

Active Member
oh im sorry jazzy i must have got you mixed up with another regular, you always stick out in my mind because you look damn identical to my girlfriends father. but yea had i figured they would fill less pre take off, i just wanted to stretch the truth a bit because ya know makes for a good sounding story, it feels good, and you get that sweet ct rush everyone is lookin for in back allies.
 

JRBids

Senior Member.
Why is it suspicious and what is the suspicion?
Is it that they must have had incriminating knowledge that the government had to engineer a major national disaster to kill them for? Did they all receive flight tickets saying they'd won a prize and they were on there way to a special award ceremony, or was this just part of their normal daily routine?

Was any research done into justifying the claim of suspicion, or was it just enough to say 'it's suspicious'?

I vote for "flight tickets to get to special award ceremony". Isn't that what the cops have done when they want to bring in people with arrest warrants or outstanding tickets? "please come to 000 Main Street to collect your prize"?
 

captfitch

Senior Member.
There's actually a few circumstances where they may actually put more fuel on board in the case of a light pax load. Generally you would prefer to be as lights as possible but what if fuel was relatively cheap in Boston compared to the west coast? Not likely though. In reality there's no way of knowing fuel load computations without having been in ops that morning. They make all the calls. But less people does not mean less fuel. They would start with a baseline minimum and add to that amount if able or necessary. The effect of light pax loads would have little effect on fuel burn. Speed might be adjusted also. Less people equals less weight which means they can fly faster for a given fuel burn.
 

Grieves

Senior Member
id perhaps be suspicious if the planes were packed to the seams with stoned masturbaters/homeless/canon fodder.....
Cannon fodder. Nice. Rather succinct demonstration of an entirely fucked up world-view.

Editedit: it really bothers me that engineers and technical people get treated like nazis by ct followers regularly pretty much across the board.
I haven't seen a single ill word spoken about any of the people on that list. What are you talking about?

Why is it suspicious and what is the suspicion?
Is it that they must have had incriminating knowledge that the government had to engineer a major national disaster to kill them for? Did they all receive flight tickets saying they'd won a prize and they were on there way to a special award ceremony, or was this just part of their normal daily routine?

Was any research done into justifying the claim of suspicion, or was it just enough to say 'it's suspicious'?
It's against the odds, but not necessarily suspicious, that so many people in similar fields involving intelligence, national security, and Boeing all happen to be on the same commercial, non-military flight at the same time. The mix on any given commercial flight is typically a little more broad. It's suspicious that this particular plane with its uncommon compliment happened to be hijacked and used as a weapon in an event to which all of their separate careers pertain on some level. What's not suspicious, or at least incredibly strange/unlikely, about employees of Boeing in the field of security, Army/Navy officers in the fields of American intelligence/national security, and employees of major defense contractors in the fields of programming/anti-radar technology- all dieing in the same Boeing plane, in an attack that thwarted American intelligence/national security, in which radar technologies failed to perform properly, and which led to the massive enrichment of major defense contractors?

It's not a smoking gun, but if its true, it's at least a little odd, isn't it? The baseless incredulity being expressed in this thread is a little weird.

I've not done any research confirming the list myself, so I can't speak too much on it either way with authority, but I believe the implication is likely that these, along perhaps with other persons listed as having been on the other flights, could have been those who posed a potential threat/irritant to the operation, and were perhaps 'disappeared' prior to the events, with their names included on the passenger lists for the sake of convenience.
 

Cairenn

Senior Member.
Someone else posed this question. If there was some plot to get rid of these folks, then HOW were they all convinced to take THAT flight? Did someone offer them discount tickets or ???.

Disappeared before hand, and NO ONE noticed that they were missing? Then who was on the plane? and why haven't their families been screaming.

One would need to look at other passenger lists to see if anything was unusual.
 

Grieves

Senior Member
Disappeared before hand, and NO ONE noticed that they were missing?
Presumably many of these careers required relatively frequent travel, and some required an obvious level of secrecy.
Then who was on the plane?
who knows?
and why haven't their families been screaming.
This is one of the gravest misconceptions people have about the '9/11 truth movement', that it's just a bunch of conspiracy theorists ranting in spite of the families of victims who according to the media feel further victimized by these loons. The fact of the matter is that the 9/11 truth movement' has at its very foundation the victims of families who found the official account unbelievable and the investigation highly inadequate. There likely wouldn't even be a 9/11 Commission report if it hadn't been for pressure from them, who later decried the Commission for the absolute sham it wound up being.
 

Mick West

Administrator
Staff member
Presumably many of these careers required relatively frequent travel, and some required an obvious level of secrecy. who knows? This is one of the gravest misconceptions people have about the '9/11 truth movement', that it's just a bunch of conspiracy theorists ranting in spite of the families of victims who according to the media feel further victimized by these loons. The fact of the matter is that the 9/11 truth movement' has at its very foundation the victims of families who found the official account unbelievable and the investigation highly inadequate. There likely wouldn't even be a 9/11 Commission report if it hadn't been for pressure from them, who later decried the Commission for the absolute sham it wound up being.

The families of the victims represent a cross-section of the American populace (and a few other countries too), so it's quite natural to expect that they would have pretty much the same range of beliefs about 9/11 as the general population does. They simply have more of a voice.
 

Oxymoron

Banned
Banned
Cannon fodder. Nice. Rather succinct demonstration of an entirely fucked up world-view.

Yes I was going to comment on that. The other thing is comments such as:

My Brother In Law was on his way to DC that morning. He has been appointed to deputy Sec of the Interior and his hearing before Congress was the next day.

I am not much of a 9/11 buff but when I saw this list my first thought was that it looks like a list of my friends and neighbors.

Coming from typical 'Debunkers', sounds more like a press release from the Pentagon.

"THERE IS NOTHING SUSPICIOUS, WE DIDN'T WANT TO BUT WE HAD TO INVADE... THE TALIBAN AND HUSSEIN DID IT... IT HAD NOTHING TO DO WITH US AND WAS NOT AN INSIDE JOB. WE PLANNED NOTHING AND KNEW NOTHING, IT WAS A TOTAL SURPRISE"
 

Oxymoron

Banned
Banned
"Odds" again... How come someone always wins the lottery, when the odds against them winning are always so great?

Early morning flights being sparsely-populated and only part-full of go-getters? How likely is that? LOL.
Yes 'odds' again.

I think 'someone' 'won the lottery' very many times on that day...Now that is unusual is it not?
 

Mick West

Administrator
Staff member
Yes 'odds' again.

I think 'someone' 'won the lottery' very many times on that day...Now that is unusual is it not?

Unusually if it happened by accident, perhaps. But it was part of a plan, that mostly worked, the precise outcome of which was uncertain.
 

Mick West

Administrator
Staff member
Coming from typical 'Debunkers', sounds more like a press release from the Pentagon.

"THERE IS NOTHING SUSPICIOUS, WE DIDN'T WANT TO BUT WE HAD TO INVADE... THE TALIBAN AND HUSSEIN DID IT... IT HAD NOTHING TO DO WITH US AND WAS NOT AN INSIDE JOB. WE PLANNED NOTHING AND KNEW NOTHING, IT WAS A TOTAL SURPRISE"

Typical debunkers? Cairenn was just saying that the passenger list did not look suspicious, and offered her personal perspective on it. What exactly is wrong with that? And in what way is it like your hypothetical example?
 

Cairenn

Senior Member.
Who would you expect to be on an early Tues morning flight from DC in early Sep ? This is not a time one would expect pleasure travelers. Business travelers, of course.

What is the major business in the DC area--government and defense. I would expect that a similar flight from Dallas would be heavy on folks involved in oil/gas. Dallas is more diversified however. DC is not.
 

SR1419

Senior Member.
It's against the odds, but not necessarily suspicious, that so many people in similar fields involving intelligence, national security, and Boeing all happen to be on the same commercial, non-military flight at the same time. The mix on any given commercial flight is typically a little more broad.

But given the context of time and place...is it "against the odds"?

As has been pointed out- its a mid-week, early morning flight from the hub of intelligence, national security, and defense industries.

Who would you expect to be on the plane?

Wouldn't it be more odd if none of those fields were represented on the flight?



...and how do these specific passengers add credence to the idea that it was an inside job?

if it was an inside job wouldn't it be likely that they would NOT be on the plane?


Also- the mix on the flight WAS more broad- the cherry picked list of Oxy's original post is but a subset of the whole- look at the entire list to see a broad sampling of all types- including teachers, tourists and children:

http://killtown.911review.org/flight77/passengers.html
 

JonJson

Active Member
Yes I was going to comment on that. The other thing is comments such as:

I am not much of a 9/11 buff but when I saw this list my first thought was that it looks like a list of my friends and neighbors.

This was my quote and what I was trying to say with it is that what seems odd to you seems rather ordinary and mundane to me because I live and work in the immediate area where this flight originated. As an example here is something that might seem odd to you but doesn't seem so to me. We have janitors in the area who have higher security clearances than my Top Secret clearance. It is just not that odd to me and neither are the descriptions of the people on the flight.
 

lotek

Active Member
yea you guys really missed the point of my comment there.... as in those are the people you would fill up a plane with if you were planning to kill them all. people who wont be missed... it was a sarcastic joke at you if anything.. a rather obvious one. Just so you dont take it to heart i fall into the category of not to be missed masturbater/canon fodder.

"It's against the odds"

Oh yea? what are the odds C3PO? you have no idea what the odds are. neither do i. but im not quoting them. and given the location and time id say they lean in our favor.

"
Coming from typical 'Debunkers', sounds more like a press release from the Pentagon."

im not a "typical debunker", im just here to personally attack you and get my paycheck from the cia.


"
I haven't seen a single ill word spoken about any of the people on that list. What are you talking about?"

Followed immediately by you accusing them of all being capable of being active participants or at least complicit in the murder of thousands of people, because of their area of study/work/expertise. you just did it again.

im not going to argue about whether or not that is exactly what you said or not, its fairly obvious that you feel an ill will towards members of the engineering community based off your desire to find this list of passengers suspicious and your readiness to accuse them of apathy.


"about employees of Boeing in the field of security, Army/Navy officers in the fields of Americanintelligence/national security, and employees of major defense contractors in the fields of programming/anti-radar technology- all dieing in the same Boeing plane, in an attack that thwarted American intelligence/national security"

Would it have rustled your jimmies less if it had been an Airbus plane?
 

Grieves

Senior Member
How so? I think perhaps you missed the meaning of lotek's comment. He was just saying that the passenger list did not seem atypical.
Naw. What he was saying was:
as in those are the people you would fill up a plane with if you were planning to kill them all. people who wont be missed... it was a sarcastic joke at you if anything.. a rather obvious one.
and I got it. I just didn't find it funny.
Followed immediately by you accusing them of all being capable of being active participants or at least complicit in the murder of thousands of people, because of their area of study/work/expertise. you just did it again.
Actually, I suggested one of the possible reasons why a group of conspirators might arrange the deaths of these individuals and then include their names on the passenger lists would be because they are 'those who posed a potential threat/irritant to the operation', as in people who might have gotten in the way/blown the whistle/tried to stop it. How in the world you got 'the people on this list are all terrorists' out of whats been said in this thread so far is beyond me. It makes me hope you're some paid shill, as I don't want to believe your average American has such a thick wall of nonsensical prejudice and predetermined bias built up against 'CT'ers, as you label them.

The families of the victims represent a cross-section of the American populace (and a few other countries too), so it's quite natural to expect that they would have pretty much the same range of beliefs about 9/11 as the general population does. They simply have more of a voice.
and aren't they also the most deserving of getting answers?
 

Mick West

Administrator
Staff member
and aren't they also the most deserving of getting answers?

Yes, which is why they have more of a voice.

The point is that they are normal people, and so have a normal range of ideas about what the think happened, and a normal range of suspicions.
 

Grieves

Senior Member
The point to me is that they haven't gotten answers to a good 70% of the questions they asked, from a Government and security organizations who performed the most piss-poor investigation, when measured against the scale of the crime, perhaps in the history of all Mankind, seemingly out of deliberate intent. There was certainly nothing preventing them from investing the adequate time and resources. A choice was made along the line. That has always been one of the most highly suspicious aspects of the events following 9/11, to me and to everyone who questions the official account: Why was the investigation and its follow-up such a deliberate miscarriage?
 

Mick West

Administrator
Staff member
The point to me is that they haven't gotten answers to a good 70% of the questions they asked

Really, do you have a list of all the questions they asked? What were some of the 30% that they got answers to? What are the remaining 70%

You know one can always keep asking questions if one is convinced there is a conspiracy, look at rainbowsally. A bulk of unanswered questions is evidence of someone asking a lot of questions.

Let's be specific here. What are three unanswered questions asked by 9/11 victims families? And please check they really are unanswered and not just "I don't like the answer".
 
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