David Grusch, Whistleblower, Claims U.S. Has Retrieved Craft and Bodies of Non-Human Origin

[qrdl]

No, it doesn't at all mean it's a lie. It only means that he thought these claims were nuts until he was converted by more senior ufologists who convinced him oherwise. Rigorous analysis of incontrovertible evidence is far less likely to have led him to convert.

OK, well we'll have to agree to disagree on this one. I do want to express gratitude for at least inspiring this line of inquiry.

 

[LilWabbit]

OK, well we'll have to agree to disagree on this one. I do want to express gratitude for at least inspiring this line of inquiry.

No worries. You're a polite, lucid and rational conversationalist albeit seeing (unreasonably imo) the alien hypothesis as equal/close in merit to the argument of a credentialed and influential ufologist lobby reinforcing each other's narratives, and getting themselves hired in fancy-sounding but ultimately modest gov't fringe entities of their own creation, and thereby successfully keeping the popular fiction of UFOs alive and kicking through media.

 

[Ravi]

I remember that years ago there was a hacker that found lots of top secret cables. I think he always claimed to not have seen any evidence of say, Grusch story or any ufo evidence for that matter.
I cannot believe a secret this big can be kept secret, even to hackers.

 

[qrdl]

No worries. You're a polite, lucid and rational conversationalist albeit seeing (unreasonably imo) the alien hypothesis as equal/close in merit to the argument of a credentialed and influential ufologist lobby reinforcing each other's narratives, and getting themselves hired in fancy-sounding but ultimately modest gov't fringe entities of their own creation, and thereby successfully keeping the popular fiction of UFOs alive and kicking through media.

That's a fascinating assertion, but is there proof?

Looking at my list, however, I see no proof for anyone that fits that bill. Elizondo and Nolan, perhaps, but I demoted them to a secondary list.

https://github.com/qrdlgit/misc/blob/main/vouch.md

We have to be careful when we make claims that we have proof to back it up. You might be right, but it's still just noise without proof.

 

[Ravi]

Just watched this video, where mr Kaku is interviewed. Interesting watch. I am not with mr Kaku though, he seems to be almost already convinced.

 

[LilWabbit]

That's a fascinating assertion, but is there proof?

Looking at my list, however, I see no proof for anyone that fits that bill. Elizondo and Nolan, perhaps, but I demoted them to a secondary list.

https://github.com/qrdlgit/misc/blob/main/vouch.md

We have to be careful when we make claims that we have proof to back it up. You might be right, but it's still just noise without proof.

@NorCal Dave already provided you the basic proof and links to threads containing more. I encourage you to study them before arguing there's none.

The alternate hypothesis, besides being far more extraordinary, has far less evidence to support it. Unless you're able to produce something that comes close to the evidence for the mentioned network/lobby.

 

[qrdl]

@NorCal Dave already provided you the basic proof and links to threads containing more. I encourage you to study them before arguing there's none.

The alternate hypothesis, besides being far more extraordinary, has far less evidence to support it. Unless you're able to produce something that comes close to the evidence for the mentioned network/lobby.

I looked at his post. He didn't directly reference anyone on my vouch list. I'm sure the people you talk about exist, but I haven't seen any proof that the folks vouching for David are being renumerated in some way for their support.

 

[LilWabbit]

I look at his post. He didn't directly reference anyone on my vouch list. I'm sure the people you talk about exist, but I haven't seen any proof that the folks vouching for David are being renumerated in some way for their support.

One doesn't need to discredit every individual in Kean's article one by one with evidence to prove the veracity of the generic claim of a wide ufologist network of the sort mentioned. There's ample proof of such a lobby led by many known ufologist figures and directly associated with the establishment and staffing of UAP entities across the government. Such proof discredits anyone citing the likes of Mellon and Elizondo as authorities who provide objective testimony on UFOs. Kean and Grusch cite.

You seem disinclined to study those threads which tells me you're not as impartial as you let on.

 

[qrdl]

One doesn't need to discredit every individual in Kean's article one by one with evidence to prove the veracity of the generic claim of a wide ufologist network of the sort mentioned. There's ample proof ot such a lobby with many known ufologist figures associated with the establishment and staffing of UAP entities across the government. Such proof discredits anyone citing the likes of Mellon and Elizondo as authorities who provide objective testimony on UFOs. Kean and Grusch cite.

You seem disinclined to study those threads which tells me you're not as impartial as you let on.

Not at all! You have me 100% wrong. I want the list to be highly credible.

The entire point of it rests on the fact that these folks are not biased in some illegitimate way. I've removed folks from the list already!

"There's ample proof ot such a lobby with many known ufologist figures associated with the establishment and staffing of UAP entities across the government. Such proof discredits anyone citing the likes of Mellon"

You mentioned Elizondo, even though I repeatedly mentioned I demoted him. Why?

I have no problem demoting Mellon, but I absolutely would like a link with actual proof. I went through the links and there was nothing referencing him.

 

[LilWabbit]

Not at all! You have me 100% wrong. I want the list to be highly credible.

The entire point of it rests on the fact that these folks are not biased in some illegitimate way. I've removed folks from the list already!

"There's ample proof ot such a lobby with many known ufologist figures associated with the establishment and staffing of UAP entities across the government. Such proof discredits anyone citing the likes of Mellon"

You mentioned Elizondo, even though I repeatedly mentioned I demoted him. Why?

I have no problem demoting Mellon, but I absolutely would like a link with actual proof. I went through the links and there was nothing referencing him.

You didn't get my point on proof though although you cited me in your response. It has nothing to do with your list which is unnecessary for the type of proof I refer to.

 

[DavidB66]

I cannot believe a secret this big can be kept secret, even to hackers.

Just wondering what is the world record for the best- (or longest-) kept secret.

Manhattan Project? Obviously not the longest-kept, since Hiroshima rather soon let the cat out of the bag. Not the best- kept either. The Soviets had spies in the heart of the project, and Stalin was famously nonchalant when Truman told him the US had an amazing new weapon. The project must also have been very widely-known in the scientific community.

Operation Barbarossa? The Soviets were taken by surprise, but only because Stalin had ignored numerous warnings.

D-day landings? very well-kept in the sense that the Germans knew an attack was coming, but weren't sure where. Even after the Normandy landings, they thought the main attack might still be further north.

Enigma code-breaking? This is a good candidate. British code-breakers cracked the Enigma code in about 1942, but this was not publicly known until the 1970s. (I think there were some minor leaks before this, but they didn't attract much attention.) The high level of secrecy can partly be explained by the fact that Enigma was still operationally significant. Enigma machines (or close derivatives) were widely used by governments and commercial enterprises in the post-war years. The British (and presumably US) governments would not want current Enigma users to know the system was unsafe.

Traffic Analysis? Still with Bletchley Park, a great deal of work, led by Gordon Welchman, was done on traffic analysis, i.e. extracting information from the pattern of communications without necessarily knowing their contents. As late as 1982 Welchman was threatened with prosecution for writing his memoirs, and lost both UK and US security clearance.

Public key cryptography? The principles of this were discovered and published by academics in the mid-1970s, but known by both GCHQ and the NSA some years earlier.

Existence of secret agencies? I have seen it claimed by UFO fans, as an example of a very long-kept secret, that the existence of the NSA was not revealed until recently, with the Snowden leaks. This is obviously exaggerated: Snowden revealed some of the more dubious activities of the NSA, but its existence was officially revealed in the 1970s (according to Wikipedia) and informally known to many before then. Likewise the existence of the main British agencies - the Security Service (aka MI5), the Secret Intelligence Service (aka MI6), and GCHQ - has only been officially recognised comparatively recently, but Ian Fleming, John Le Carre and others made a good living from writing about them long before that.

These are just a few examples off the top of my head. The breaking of Enigma is possibly the most convincing. A historically important event, known to at least a few hundred people,* was kept almost entirely secret, for about 3 decades.

*a much larger number worked at Bletchley Park, but comparatively few had the whole picture.

 

[qrdl]

Christopher Mellon spent nearly 20 years in the U.S. Intelligence Community, including serving as the Minority Staff Director of the Senate Intelligence Committee and the Deputy Assistant Secretary of Defense for Intelligence. In the Senate, he conceived and drafted the legislation establishing the US Special Operations Command in 1986 while working as an aide for U.S. Senator William S. Cohen (R-ME).

He has taught at Georgetown University, authored a number of articles on public policy issues, and received numerous awards including the National Reconnaissance Office Gold Medal, the DIA Director's Medal, and the Secretary of Defense Public Service Award. Mr. Mellon has also served as the Chairman of the Science Committee at the Carnegie Museum of Natural History.

He earned his B.A. from Colby College and his M.A. from Yale University. Since retiring from federal service Mr. Mellon has been working as a private equity investor engaged in biotech and information technology start-ups. He also appears in the History Channel TV series UNIDENTIFIED, and plays a prominent role in the movie "The Phenomenon."

Impugning the credibility of this fellow without extraordinary proof is not rational.

 

[qrdl]

https://thedebrief.org/compass-rose...ociation-with-uap-whistleblower-david-grusch/

COMPASS ROSE ATTORNEYS FORMALLY END ASSOCIATION WITH UAP WHISTLEBLOWER DAVID GRUSCH

Lol... well that was definitely why I included the lawyer on the list. This walkout is a massive blow.

Brutal.

From the article:

Either way, this statement seems a strong indication that the well-regarded legal group known for representing clients in this type of ICIG complaint is doing its best to distance itself from the exceptional claims made by Grush moving forward.

Anyways, I'm going to stop updating this list. When your lawyer walks away like this it's really really bad news.

 

[LilWabbit]

https://thedebrief.org/compass-rose...ociation-with-uap-whistleblower-david-grusch/

COMPASS ROSE ATTORNEYS FORMALLY END ASSOCIATION WITH UAP WHISTLEBLOWER DAVID GRUSCH

Lol... well that was definitely why I included the lawyer on the list. This walkout is a massive blow.

Brutal.

From the article:





Anyways, I'm going to stop updating this list. When your lawyer walks away like this it's really really bad news.

Thanks for sharing. From the lawyer's statement cited in the article:

"Recent media articles misstate the scope of the firm's representation and include material misstatements of fact pertaining to our representation, which we have requested be corrected."

Based on the above it's perfectly reasonable to argue that Kean's article includes also other 'misstatements' of the scope of other referenced persons' involvement with anything remarkable, especially with secret programs that have recovered alien crafts.

Moral of the story: Anecdotes.

 

[Ann K]

I see a lot of speculations here based on assumptions easily falsified by the Debrief article.

And herein may lie the problem. I went to Media Bias to check on them, and while they rate them "mostly factual" they had this to say about that specific article:

In the article "Intelligence Officials Say U.S. Has Retrieved 'Non-Human Craft," thedebrief.org reports on intelligence officials' claims regarding retrieving unidentified aerial objects (UFOs). The article presents the statements made by these officials and explores the implications and potential significance of such claims. The information is presented based on the statements made by the officials making a first-hand account. However, the article did not provide direct evidence or links to support these claims, which raises questions about the credibility of the information.
....
While The Debrief is usually factual and sources information properly, they sometimes rely on testimony from sources who do not present evidence. This does not mean the information is false, but we can't say it is true without evidence.

https://mediabiasfactcheck.com/the-debrief-bias/

It's evidence that we lack, and we can't depend upon the article to give it.

 

[LilWabbit]

And herein may lie the problem. I went to Media Bias to check on them, and while they rate them "mostly factual" they had this to say about that specific article:

In the article "Intelligence Officials Say U.S. Has Retrieved 'Non-Human Craft," thedebrief.org reports on intelligence officials' claims regarding retrieving unidentified aerial objects (UFOs). The article presents the statements made by these officials and explores the implications and potential significance of such claims. The information is presented based on the statements made by the officials making a first-hand account. However, the article did not provide direct evidence or links to support these claims, which raises questions about the credibility of the information.
....
While The Debrief is usually factual and sources information properly, they sometimes rely on testimony from sources who do not present evidence. This does not mean the information is false, but we can't say it is true without evidence.

https://mediabiasfactcheck.com/the-debrief-bias/

It's evidence that we lack, and we can't depend upon the article to give it.

Yup. I think it's safe to say the article has been debunked in terms of credibility as evidence.

But in the process I'd like to applaud @qrdl for integrity and truthfulness. He debunked it himself. Welcome to MB!

 

[Pepijn van Erp]

So the question is did he learn about the alleged Italian crash through official sources/briefings, or from outside the government, open sources like "The Fascist Files" cited above. If the latter, he doesn't need approval from the government to discuss what he thinks he knows based on those open sources.

Former Canadian Minister of Defense Paul Hellyer's UFO activism was based on this scenario. When pressed, he would admit he did not see any UFO material while serving in the Canadian government, and most of what he thought he knew came from sources like Corso's "Day After Roswell" and things he was told by others in the UFO community.

In the interview with Le Parisien, Grusch describes Mussolini's UFO as bell-shaped, while that detail as far as I know is not in the Italian stories about it.

D.G.: One was recovered in Italy in 1933, which is the earliest case I've been briefed on. I can't talk about the others.

Int.: What allegedly happened there?

D.G.: In 1933, a bell-like craft, around ten meters in size was recovered in Magenta, northern Italy. It was kept by Mussolini's government until 1944 when it was recovered by agents of the Office of Strategic Services (OSS, a former US intelligence agency). Ironically, it predates anything the public has heard about for decades, such as Roswell, etc. I was authorized to talk about it by the Department of Defense's Office of Prepublication and Security Review.

Grusch may have mixed it with the story on Die Glocke himself, but more likely he copied it from others. Billy Brophy, who apparently also made up all sorts of things in the Baca-Padilla case, does mention a bell shape in an account of a presentation he gave in 2010 in which he links Mussolini's UFO to the 'Battle of Los Angeles' and he also introduces the alien bodies of Nordics. 'Die Locked' is most likely a mishearing by him of 'Die Glocke'. Brophy just glues everything together here.

from: https://douglasjohnson.ghost.io/cra...sies-of-billy-brophy-about-his-airman-father/

Apparently, Jacques Vallee took Brophy seriously in the Baca-Padilla case, so perhaps his version of Mussolini's UFO has been spread by Vallee as well. Is this how Mussolini's UFO landed on Grusch?
Roberto Pinotti ~~> Billy Brophy --> Jacques Vallee --> ? --> David Grusch

 

[Rick Robson]

Excuse me but I'd like to know what is going to happen to the "whistleblowers" coming forward on this case, because I can't get my head around the allegation that they'll not face any criminal suit if their claims turn out to be untrue.
I just heard author Michael Schellenberger coming forward too yesterday, this time interviewed by The Rising and putting AARO in a very uncomfortable and unsettling situation. Am I right to think one side or the other will definitely have to respond to the DoJ?

 

[Ann K]

Just wondering what is the world record for the best- (or longest-) kept secret.

The one nobody knows about yet.

 

[Itsme]

It's evidence that we lack, and we can't depend upon the article to give it.

I think everybody can agree to that, even Leslie Kaen. We'll just have to wait and see.

 

[Duke]

In the interview with Le Parisien, Grusch describes Mussolini's UFO as bell-shaped, while that detail as far as I know is not in the Italian stories about it.


Grusch may have mixed it with the story on Die Glocke himself, but more likely he copied it from others. Billy Brophy, who apparently also made up all sorts of things in the Baca-Padilla case, does mention a bell shape in an account of a presentation he gave in 2010 in which he links Mussolini's UFO to the 'Battle of Los Angeles' and he also introduces the alien bodies of Nordics. 'Die Locked' is most likely a mishearing by him of 'Die Glocke'. Brophy just glues everything together here.

View attachment 59753
from: https://douglasjohnson.ghost.io/cra...sies-of-billy-brophy-about-his-airman-father/

Apparently, Jacques Vallee took Brophy seriously in the Baca-Padilla case, so perhaps his version of Mussolini's UFO has been spread by Vallee as well. Is this how Mussolini's UFO landed on Grusch?
Roberto Pinotti ~~> Billy Brophy --> Jacques Vallee --> ? --> David Grusch

Not sure I get the overall point you're trying to make? That Grusch learned about the alleged Italian UFO crash through official channels because he identitied it as bell shaped? That "fact" is printed in the 2010 "Filer File" excerpt you posted above. That alone means Grusch (and anyone else) could have read of the purported bell shape from well known ufologist Major George Filer's "Research Institute" at least 13 years ago. Or am I missing what you're driving at?

Btw, for those unfamiliar with Maj Filer, he is perhaps best know in the UFO community for claiming military police shot and killed an alien at Fort Dix (New Jersey, USA) in 1978.

Retired Air Force Major George Filer III told author John L. Guerra that on a day in January 1978, a 4-foot creature, gray and brown in color with a large head, long arms and a thin body, was shot and killed at Fort Dix in New Jersey, The Asbury Park Press reported.

https://www.wftv.com/news/trending-...8-retired-major-claims-in-new-book/988844369/

 

[Itsme]

The one nobody knows about yet.

Haha, exactly..

There is a good way to keep something secret in plain sight: Just pollute the signal with so much idiotic noise that the media, nor politicians, nor any scientists want to have anything to do with it. A very effective strategy which will cover up any leak that might occur and will keep the topic fringe instead of secret for many decades.

 

[Ravi]

Retired Air Force Major George Filer III told author John L. Guerra that on a day in January 1978, a 4-foot creature, gray and brown in color with a large head, long arms and a thin body, was shot and killed at Fort Dix in New Jersey, The Asbury Park Press reported.

https://www.wftv.com/news/trending-...8-retired-major-claims-in-new-book/988844369/

"Light gray figures with praying mantis like features".
It does not get any better than this! smh.

 

[Rick Robson]

I think everybody can agree to that, even Leslie Kaen. We'll just have to wait and see.

II think Leslie Kean has already publicly admitted that we have to wait for definitive proof, but I only wonder how long.

 

[Rick Robson]

"Light gray figures with praying mantis like features".
It does not get any better than this! smh.

Interestingly, there's always good selling books about this subject matter.

 

[Pepijn van Erp]

Not sure I get the overall point you're trying to make? That Grusch learned about the alleged Italian UFO crash through official channels because he identitied it as bell shaped? That "fact" is printed in the 2010 "Filer File" excerpt you posted above. That alone means Grusch (and anyone else) could have read of the purported bell shape from well known ufologist Major George Filer's "Research Institute" at least 13 years ago. Or am I missing what you're driving at?

Btw, for those unfamiliar with Maj Filer, he is perhaps best know in the UFO community for claiming military police shot and killed an alien at Fort Dix (New Jersey, USA) in 1978.

Retired Air Force Major George Filer III told author John L. Guerra that on a day in January 1978, a 4-foot creature, gray and brown in color with a large head, long arms and a thin body, was shot and killed at Fort Dix in New Jersey, The Asbury Park Press reported.

https://www.wftv.com/news/trending-...8-retired-major-claims-in-new-book/988844369/

My point is that even if he got this story through official channels, the info most likely relates to unreliable sources like Brophy.

 

[sigmops]

LilWabbit's thesis that David was already a ufologist before his 'interviews' would blow a hole wide open in all of this.

Why?

Because a) it would contradict David's critical assertion that he was skeptical and b) it would show significant bias

I have seen Zero proof that David was a ufologist before the task force, but if it's true, it's very likely out there somewhere.

According to a tweet from a Joe Murgia when Grush met with Corbell, Knapp and Murgia at a Star Trek convention in 2022 they recited together the opening scene from "The Wrath of Khan"


Source: https://twitter.com/michaelshermer/status/1666293200418664448


This isnt really evidence of anything, but having the ability to recite a line like this it may be fair to say it suggests a strong prior interest in the topic?

Of course being a fan of Star Trek or SciFi in general doesnt make one a ufologist or even preclude one from being a skeptic of UAP.

 

[JMartJr]

David is telling the truth, but some combination of the following

1. He misunderstood / misjudged some of his sources
2. Some of his sources are confabulating, but not purposely and misunderstood what they saw
3. Some of his sources are purposely confabulating for reasons of
   1. Supporting their reputations or others in ufology
   2. trying to undermine trust in government, whether criminal conspiracy or just individual actions

I'd add:
3:3. Trying to maintain UFO folklore as a handy disinfo tool or cover for more prosaic but secret aircraft research projects.

But the list of all possible motives for intentionally "confabulating" is probably unworkably long.

 

[Duke]

My point is that even if he got this story through official channels, the info most likely relates to unreliable sources like Brophy.

I get you now. All of which is another way of saying he could have, and most likely did, get the story from open sources.

 

[Itsme]

Trying to maintain UFO folklore as a handy disinfo tool or cover for more prosaic but secret aircraft research projects

This only works if you can keep it a fringe topic. You would not want scientists to seriously study the skies with sophisticated equipment.
From the latest Medium article by Avi Loeb:

the military-industrial complex of the US is developing new technologies and might wish to reduce the likelihood that they will be exposed by UAP observatories of the type that the Galileo Project constructed and that the NASA Study recommends. One way to mitigate the risk of exposure is to discredit the scientific exploration of UAP. This may explain the 2020 report published by Northrop Grumman in their official newsletter "Now" which routinely features the intersection of technology, innovations & creativity. The report chose to feature my 2018 paper two years after it hypothesized a technological origin for the first reported interstellar object `Oumuamua, and stated that my paper "elicited derision from scientists." Why would Northrop Grumman care about extraterrestrials? And moreover, why would they care to dismiss in a newsletter on technology, innovation & creativity, a peer-reviewed scientific paper by the chair of Harvard's Astronomy department?

Source: https://avi-loeb.medium.com/the-multiple-groups-of-uap-studies-within-government-da0d122a3c1b

 

[Rick Robson]

This only works if you can keep it a fringe topic.

This might be the reason for they possibly do this:

Just pollute the signal with so much idiotic noise that the media, nor politicians, nor any scientists want to have anything to do with it. A very effective strategy which will cover up any leak that might occur and will keep the topic fringe instead of secret for many decades.

 

[Mendel]

Remember, we haven't seen Grusch's IG complaint. It can be very different from what he says on TV.

We have proof of this now!

As noted by @qrdl, Grusch's attorneys wrote (excerpted, my emphasis):

Article:

The firm filed a narrowly-scoped whistleblower disclosure with the Intelligence Community Inspector General ("ICIG") and associated personnel matters – and had represented Mr. Grusch since February 2022.

The whistleblower disclosure did not speak to the specifics of the alleged classified information that Mr. Grusch has now publicly characterized, and the substance of that information has always been outside of the scope of Compass Rose's representation.

Source: https://compassrosepllc.com/news/

There are two reasons I can imagine why the law firm distances itself like this:

1) Their client did something they advised him not to do, and if others think that they did advise him it was fine to do it, their reputation would suffer. Distancing themselves makes it clear that their client has done something they don't agree with and are not responsible for.

2) They noticed that they're publicly falsely being attributed as supporting Grusch's extraterrestrial/non-human claims, and want to dispel the impression that they do. That means that these attorneys have not seen enough evidence to believe Grusch's claims, and maybe think they're false.

I predict (as before) that the whistleblower complaint concerns a crash retrieval program that UAPTF and/or AARO didn't have access to (and maybe they had no knowledge of) that could potentially have retrieved non-human craft, but that there is no evidence for the claim that non-human craft have been retrieved, and that this claim is not part of the complaint.

So any argument of the kind "but he gave proof to the IG" falls flat because what he told the IG doesn't cover the interesting stuff.

 

[Mendel]

This only works if you can keep it a fringe topic. You would not want scientists to seriously study the skies with sophisticated equipment.

Like the Galileo Project?

 

[Rick Robson]

We have proof of this now!

As noted by @qrdl, Grusch's attorneys wrote (excerpted, my emphasis):

Article:

The firm filed a narrowly-scoped whistleblower disclosure with the Intelligence Community Inspector General ("ICIG") and associated personnel matters – and had represented Mr. Grusch since February 2022.

The whistleblower disclosure did not speak to the specifics of the alleged classified information that Mr. Grusch has now publicly characterized, and the substance of that information has always been outside of the scope of Compass Rose's representation.

Source: https://compassrosepllc.com/news/

There are two reasons I can imagine why the law firm distances itself like this:

1) Their client did something they advised him not to do, and if others think that they did advise him it was fine to do it, their reputation would suffer. Distancingvthemselves makes it clear that their client has done something they don't agree with and are not responsible for.

2) They noticed that they're publicly falsely being attributed as supporting Grusch's extraterrestrial/non-human claims, and want to dispel the impression that they do. That means that these attorneys have not seen enough evidence to believe Grusch's claims, and maybe think they're false.

I predict (as before) that the whistleblower complaint concerns a crash retrieval program that UAPTF and/or AARO didn't have access to (and maybe they had no knowledge of) that could potentially have retrieved non-human craft, but that there is no evidence for the claim that non-human craft have been retrieved, and that this claim is not part of the complaint.

So any argument of the kind "but he gave proof to the IG" falls flat because what he told the IG doesn't cover the interesting stuff.

I think you nailed it. All this noise created by Mr. Grusch is definitely going to end up like a "nothing burger". And this time happily it's already getting too late to a tremendous book deal & speaking tour. My concern is whether impunity will be at the order of the day for that "whistleblower".

 

[NorCal Dave]

That's a fascinating assertion, but is there proof?

Looking at my list, however, I see no proof for anyone that fits that bill. Elizondo and Nolan, perhaps, but I demoted them to a secondary list.

https://github.com/qrdlgit/misc/blob/main/vouch.md

We have to be careful when we make claims that we have proof to back it up. You might be right, but it's still just noise without proof.

Unfortunately, your list is now gone but below is a post I was working on concerning it. These were just the people off the top of my head that were involved in Skinwalker Ranch either directly or tangentially. My point was that we should be careful with "Lists" that sometimes bring about a "sum is greater than the parts" conclusion. As @LilWabbit has aptly pointed out, many of the people involved in government UFO programs seem to have beliefs about UFOs prior to working on them. Perhaps that is why the end up in UFO programs.

Jay Stratton is almost certainly the character known as Axelrod in the book Skinwalker at the Pentagon and it was he the headed up the UAPTF with Travis Talyor and Grusch working for him. When Stratton hired Taylor as the "chief scientist" for UAPTF, he was already making regular appearances as an expert in the aforementioned fringe TV shows, including Ancient Aliens. Stratton hiring him then seems to show either a lack of judgement or deep desire to bring on a fellow traveler. Perhaps both. Is it a stretch to imagine that Stratton also brought on a like minded individual in Grusch?

Concerning your list of people vouching for Grusch:

From your list in random order:

Harry Reid

Claim

Former Senate Majority Leader

As a devout Morman, he has stated that he believes in other worlds and aliens are possible. As majority leader, he managed to get an RFP (Request For Proposal) written to supposedly study future aerospace technology, but was really for the study of UFOs, the paranormal, consciousness and all weird stuff at Skinwalker Ranch, UT and was called AASWAP.

The sole bidder for the AASWAP RFP was Reid campaign doner and fellow Nevada Morman, Robert Bigelow's BAASS company. BAASS received ~22 million over 2-3 years to produce "papers" on future aerospace technology, AND do a bunch of UFO and paranormal research at places like Bigelow's Skinwalker Ranch, including research into the migration patterns of 7' tall werewolves.

Erik W. Davis

Claim

Astrophysicist who worked as a subcontractor and then a consultant for the Pentagon U.F.O. program since 2007

Davis worked for NIDS (National Institute for Discovery Science). This was Bigelow's privately funded research group that studied UFOs, paranormal and other wierdshitology at Skinwalker Ranch after Bigelow bought it. Bigelow shut NIDS down as it discovered nothing, but George Knapp wrote a book about it, Secrets of Skinwalker Ranch (or something like that) with a bunch of hyped up stories and no evidence. James Lacatski and Jay Stratton would latter read the book, believe it and lead to the formation of AASWAP.

Davis has managed to get some nice paydays from the government for highly speculative papers on time travel and other things. After NIDS shut down, Bigelow restarted it with taxpayer money as BAASS, the sole bidder to the AASWAP RFP. Davis collected a few more tax payer paydays by provided speculative papers to BAASS for AASWAP

Luis Elizondo

David/Claim

Former director of the now defunct Advanced Aerospace Threat Identification Program associated with the Pentagon UFO videos (Vouched by Harry Reid)

It's likely there was never any official program called AATIP. The creators of the AASWAP program, which was official and funded by the DoD, claim they made up the acronym AATIP for a cover letter to hide the existence of AASWAP when Senator Ried tried to get SAP (Special Access Program) designation for AASWAP. Possibly because people in the DoD were getting curious about what AASWAP was doing with the 22 million it was allocated.

Elizondo has long said he "headed AATIP" but there are no records of the program. It might have been something like an after-school UFO club that he and others participated in as a side gig.


I believe Chris Mellon was on the list as well. He's interesting, in that in 2016 he told Kean the government isn't hiding UFOs or is particularly interested in them:

I highly doubt DoD or any other government agency is concealing UFO information. I participated in a comprehensive review of DoD's black programs and spent over a decade conducting oversight of the national foreign intelligence program, an almost totally separate world of secrets. I visited Area 51 and other military, intelligence and research facilities. During all those years, I never detected the faintest hint of government interest or involvement in UFOs. ... While a few new, previously overlooked documents might turn up (the bureaucracy is never perfect), I do not believe they would resolve the UFO issue or provide significant new insights. I can think of one lengthy UFO report that is classified only due to concerns over sources and methods. In fact, it identified a convincing conventional explanation for the pilot sightings in this particular case. There are lots of classified documents related to activities at Area 51, where high security is needed. But this is all legitimate stuff the American people would support. They have nothing to do with UFOs, to the best of my knowledge.[8]

But then went on to join Tom DeLongs TTSA (To The Stars Acadamy):

Mellon worked with Leslie Kean in a UFO organization and is a shareholder and former advisor for the Blink 182 punk rocker Tom DeLonge's To The Stars Academy of Arts & Sciences.[11][12] According to the company's website, Mellon's title was "national security affairs advisor".[13]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christopher_Mellon#UFO/UAP_work

So, I guess he's not in the Skinwalker Ranch group, but was heavily involved with DeLongs entertainment company masquerading as a science and discloser organization, TTSA. In Mellon's defense, it may be that he didn't realize how TTSA had been structured to funnel money to DeLong

Regarding NIDS, I did find this little quote from 2004 that sounds familiar:

I recently sat down for lunch with a former staff member of the National Institute for Discovery Science (NIDS). As a long time follower of the UFO field, over the years I had often heard stories and read rumors on message boards posted by conspiratorial minded Ufologists that NIDS was a front for the CIA; that NIDS had in its possession a crashed alien spacecraft; that NIDS was privy to secrets regarding alien technology; and many others.

https://web.archive.org/web/20091026221958/http://geocities.com/Area51/Rampart/2271/

This just a quick glance at the list, I would have to delve into some of the other individuals.

 

[Mendel]

It's likely there was never any official program called AATIP. The creators of the AASWAP program, which was official and funded by the DoD, claim they made up the acronym AATIP for a cover letter to hide the existence of AASWAP when Senator Ried tried to get SAP (Special Access Program) designation for AASWAP. Possibly because people in the DoD were getting curious about what AASWAP was doing with the 22 million it was allocated.

Elizondo has long said he "headed AATIP" but there are no records of the program. It might have been something like an after-school UFO club that he and others participated in as a side gig.

Always nice to see we have proof of a UFO "researcher" conspiracy, but no proof of a government conspiracy.

 

[Stealth777]

Trying to stay on the path , you know the one in the middle until I am forced to one side. David G comes forward with this information and present information with a oath, and information being slow dripping leading to a T.V. event on Sunday, I get the feeling this will lead to hear is a carrot in your face , do you all want more ? Then you have Compass Rose jumping ship. Rose either said this is way over our head and we are being threaten to get out of this story or Rose said so you have nothing just hear say ? And left because that would really hurt Rose as a company backing up something without something. As of right now I am waiting on what the book will be called.

 

[Rationalman]

I await more details of that evidence with interest.

"I await more details of that evidence with interest." What details are you talking about? What questions would you ask Grusch? Do you think that someone will provide evidence to support Grusch's claims?

 

[LilWabbit]

This just a quick glance at the list, I would have to delve into some of the other individuals.

As always, can't wait to see what you can dig up.

 

[Mendel]

David G comes forward with this information and present information with a oath

We have not seen the information Grusch swore an oath on.