Contrails, Gravity Waves, and HAARP

[electrojet]

From your own source, no mention of HAARP. I still fail to see how HAARP can have anything to do with these. It is like a fly landing on an iceberg, it has such a tiny effect. Wind shear has been known for years to have an effect on tornadoes. Just like a split in the Jet Stream will have

Hi Cairenn,

HAARP is described this way and this is an engrained meme.
It is based upon the total transmitting power and then rf transmitters (HAARP et al) are compared with energetic solar events.

It has some truthiness to it, but this is not taking into account a dynamically coupled atmosphere. Gravity waves are linked to the fair weather return and the down welling of the polar vortex. HAARP creates gravity waves and alter gravity wave breaking.
Once an rf transmitter has birthed a gravity wave, the wave is the thing that modifies weather, impacts energy transport, meridional circulation and the polar vortex.

Regarding the gravity waves and rf transmitters. That is seen in statement A. There are more links that discuss artificial radio frequencies and buoyancy waves together. I will provide them also.


Bryan

 

[justanairlinepilot]

The reference material and all links are 100% about gravity waves. The focus is on gravity waves impact on dynamic coupling from the mesosphere down to weather on the ground.

Here is the conclusion from the study you've provided...

5 ConclusionDuring the SpreadFEx Campaign 2005, we observed equatorial plasma bubble formation and development by means
of airglow OI 6300 all-sky imager. Simultaneous observation of the OH and OI 6300 airglow made it possible to
investigate possible relation between the bubble seeding in
the ionosphere and gravity wave activity in the mesosphere.
On the evening of 30 September 2005, comb-like OI 6300
depletions with an equi-distance of ∼130 km between adjacent structures were observed. During this period the F-layer
bottom side was disturbed, although the perturbation did not
develop upwards not forming high altitude plasma bubbles.
During the same period, the mesospheric gravity wave with
a horizontal wavelength of ∼130 km and with the observed
phase velocity of 74 m/s propagating towards the southeast
was observed. On the evening of 1 October 2005, a similar inter-bubble distance (∼120 km) and a mesospheric gravity wave with 120 km horizontal wavelength were observed.
From the 17 nights of observation, a good correlation of
mesospheric gravity wave horizontal wavelength and the distance of the 6300 depletions was found. The possibility of thegravity wave penetration into the lower thermosphere (100–160 km) was examined. The results suggest that the observed
ionospheric plasma depletions and bubbles are strongly related to the mesospheric gravity wave activities, mainly with
their horizontal wavelengths

http://www.ann-geophys.net/27/1477/2009/angeo-27-1477-2009.pdf



That's all fine and such but the study you provide is not just about about gravity waves impact on dynamic coupling from the mesosphere down to weather on the ground. The study goes both directions. Despite being a very interesting study and something I've never considered, I'd like to know how this relates to HAARP and contrails?

 

[justanairlinepilot]

Hi Cairenn,

HAARP is described this way and this is an engrained meme.
It is based upon the total transmitting power and then rf transmitters (HAARP et al) are compared with energetic solar events.

It has some truthiness to it, but this is not taking into account a dynamically coupled atmosphere. Gravity waves are linked to the fair weather return and the down welling of the polar vortex. HAARP creates gravity waves and alter gravity wave breaking.
Once an rf transmitter has birthed a gravity wave, the wave is the thing that modifies weather, impacts energy transport, meridional circulation and the polar vortex.

Regarding the gravity waves and rf transmitters. That is seen in statement A. There are more links that discuss artificial radio frequencies and buoyancy waves together. I will provide them also.


Bryan

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rf_transmitter_module

So you're saying radio frequencies are creating warm and cold fronts, masses of air movement? Preposterous!!!!

 

[solrey]

dynamic coupling diagram from post above.

The wave breaking interactions depicted in that diagram only extend to around 10 mb, which is around 32 km. The diurnal, lightly ionized D layer begins at around 60 km, which is around 0.19 mbar. The pressure in the uppermost portion of the atmosphere involved in global circulation patterns effected by wave breaking is around 53 times that of the lowest portion of the ionosphere. Gravity waves that originate in the ionosphere stay in the ionosphere and have zero effect on the much denser atmosphere below. What do you not understand about this most basic concept?

 

[JFDee]

Gravity waves are linked to the fair weather return and the down welling of the polar vortex.

Linked - as the cause or the effect?

Edit: researched the link - it's obviously established.

The main contributor to atmospheric gravity waves is the wind interacting with geographic features.
What is the size of the share coming from radiation events?

What is the size of the share that HAARP contributes to these radiation events?

The relations between energy contributors is obviously relevant here.

 

[electrojet]

The wave breaking interactions depicted in that diagram only extend to around 10 mb, which is around 32 km. The diurnal, lightly ionized D layer begins at around 60 km, which is around 0.19 mbar. The pressure in the uppermost portion of the atmosphere involved in global circulation patterns effected by wave breaking is around 53 times that of the lowest portion of the ionosphere. Gravity waves that originate in the ionosphere stay in the ionosphere and have zero effect on the much denser atmosphere below. What do you not understand about this most basic concept?

Hi Solrey.

The wave breaking only extends to about 10mb/32km. The interactions and dynamic coupling are feverishly being studied by researchers around the World.

What do you not understand about how gravity waves move energy packets, alter chemistry and impact other processes? ...Keep reading !

Your statement "...zero impact..." does not stand up to the scientific literature.

The fair weather return (and other processes) are impacted by gravity waves, even gravity waves in the mesosphere and ionosphere.

Bryan

 

[Mick West]

What do you not understand about how gravity waves move energy packets, alter chemistry and impact other processes?n

What does "alter chemistry" mean, and how would air moving up and down do that?

 

[electrojet]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rf_transmitter_module

So you're saying radio frequencies are creating warm and cold fronts, masses of air movement? Preposterous!!!!

No, The research is stating that gravity waves are dynamically coupled to terrestrial weather. It is not a case of direct manipulation of fronts or air movement.
Gravity waves impact the down welling of the polar vortex, the fair weather return (not a sexy area of research), and the chemistry of the stratosphere and mesosphere.

Peace and safe flying !

Bryan

---There are better research papers explaining the dynamics and those will be linked here (soon hopefully)

 

[electrojet]

What does "alter chemistry" mean, and how would air moving up and down do that?

The research shows that gravity waves transport energy and the changes in energy alter ozone and chemistry of the upper stratosphere and mesosphere. Some of the studies detail how proton storms impact ozone. ...looking for the study on chemistry changes via rf transmitters .....

Bryan

 

[justanairlinepilot]

No, The research is stating that gravity waves are dynamically coupled to terrestrial weather. It is not a case of direct manipulation of fronts or air movement.
Gravity waves impact the down welling of the polar vortex, the fair weather return (not a sexy area of research), and the chemistry of the stratosphere and mesosphere.

Peace and safe flying !

Bryan

---There are better research papers explaining the dynamics and those will be linked here (soon hopefully)

I'm not questioning the documents you've linked. I'm questioning your comments. You are saying RF transmissions alter meteorological gravity waves.

HAARP creates gravity waves and alter gravity wave breaking.
Once an rf transmitter has birthed a gravity wave, the wave is the thing that modifies weather, impacts energy transport, meridional circulation and the polar vortex.

Post #121

 

[electrojet]

I'm not questioning the documents you've linked. I'm questioning your comments. You are saying RF transmissions alter meteorological gravity waves.
Post #121

The research says rf transmitters alter gravity waves (and can create gravity waves) rossby waves, internal buoyancy waves, acoustic gravity waves. The action of gravity waves that are created and modified by transmissions effects meteorological waves. The attached photo is of a gravity wave at a relatively low latitude, this wave was most likely not created by rf transmissions but it's propagation and behavior and breaking (energy dumping) can be altered by other gravity waves or perturberations above it. These dynamics are being increasingly looked at for the effects on weather. The complexity of wave-wave interactions is daunting. Waves above the selected image and video, or the creation of an artificial ionosphere layer above this gravity wave IS going to exert an in fluence on tropospheric and stratospheric weather.


How often do you encounter unforseen turbulence while flying? My flight experiences are usually the fasten seatbelt light comes on, but once in a while....


Bryan




There is a nice movie of some rolling wave clouds here;
http://m.youtube.com/#/watch?v=yXnkzeCU3bE&desktop_uri=/watch?v=yXnkzeCU3bE

 

[electrojet]

What does "alter chemistry" mean, and how would air moving up and down do that?

What does Bernard Eastlund have to say on chemistry alteration via artificial means?

The production of enhanced ionization will also alter the distribution of atomic and molecular constituents of the atmosphere, most notably through increased atomic nitrogen concentration. The upper atmosphere is normally rich in atomic oxygen (the dominant atmospheric constituent above 200 km altitude), but atomic nitrogen is normally relatively rare. This can be expected to manifest itself in increased airglow, among other effects.

Content from External Source

From; http://www.google.com/patents/US4686605

There is another thread that is labeled people debunked-Bernard Eastlund. The problem with that thread is that The Skeptoid piece that this supposed debunking is based upon is riddled with errors. The above patent claim is seen in actual ionospheric research. Somehow the skeptoid doesn't actually examine the science in making it's claims.

So why is it that Metabunk purports to have debunked him?

Bryan

 

[Mick West]

What does Bernard Eastlund have to say on chemistry alteration via artificial means?

The production of enhanced ionization will also alter the distribution of atomic and molecular constituents of the atmosphere, most notably through increased atomic nitrogen concentration. The upper atmosphere is normally rich in atomic oxygen (the dominant atmospheric constituent above 200 km altitude), but atomic nitrogen is normally relatively rare. This can be expected to manifest itself in increased airglow, among other effects.

Content from External Source

From; http://www.google.com/patents/US4686605

There is another thread that is labeled people debunked-Bernard Eastlund. The problem with that thread is that The Skeptoid piece that this supposed debunking is based upon is riddled with errors. The above patent claim is seen in actual ionospheric research. Somehow the skeptoid doesn't actually examine the science in making it's claims.

So why is it that Metabunk purports to have debunked him?

Bryan

Perhaps because people use his words to back bunk?

I asked you how air moving up and down would "alter chemistry", and you then reference the supposed effects of an ionospheric heater. Two entirely separate things.

 

[solrey]

The ripples that propagate outward when a leaf lands on the surface of a pond are gravity waves. So by your logic there, Bryan... Because a leaf landing on a pond produces gravity waves and gravity waves are involved with weather in the lower troposphere, leaves landing on water must play a part in producing weather. I can link dozens of studies researching gravity waves produced by things landing on water, by the buoyancy of bubbles rising to the surface producing gravity waves, by wind blowing across the surface of water producing gravity waves and gravity waves produced by convective storms and come up with whatever cause and effect I can dream up.

Just because a phenomenon in the ionosphere is termed a gravity wave, it does not mean it's linked to gravity waves from the lower atmosphere involved in global circulation patterns. Basically a gravity wave is any wave that, once initiated, propagates by the force of gravity. It doesn't mean that all gravity waves are somehow "coupled".

 

[electrojet]

Originally posted by Mick, I asked you how air moving up and down would "alter chemistry", and you then reference the supposed effects of an ionospheric heater. Two entirely separate things.

Ozone studies, fair weather exchange, sprite studies are a few places that might display chemistry changes.

In the case of plasma creation (Eastlund) there are also lifting effects that are created. So this may be more related than it appears to be.

As for Eastlund, I believe the best method is to look at patent claims and actual demonstrated capability honestly. Do people wildly mis-construe Eastlund? Sure. Does this justify skipping past the science in order to make a point? I don't think it does. The Eastlund thread is deceptive and adds confusion in order to win a small point. That is a slippery slope. Why not elevate?

Hi Solrey.

Very nice illustration. It is preposterous to say that gravity waves on a pond significantly alter weather. I agree! although for a tiny insect at the edge of that pond it may constitute a dramatic weather related incident.

I also agree that all gravity waves are not 'coupled'.

Gravity waves are carriers of energy. A mountain generated wave propagates vertically (overall) growing in amplitude as it rises. It then encounters an artificial ionospheric layer 60 miles up and secondary waves are transferred downwards or the wave tunnels into the artifical layer. What are the effects? Only down to the stratopause?

How do gravity waves impact ozone dispersion? Are gravity waves coupled with the polar vortex?

How does this graphic apply?


Or this one? Are gravity waves energetic ?
Bryan

 

[electrojet]

Linked - as the cause or the effect?

The main contributor to atmospheric gravity waves is the wind interacting with geographic features.
What is the size of the share coming from radiation events?

What is the size of the share that HAARP contributes to these radiation events?

The relations between energy contributors is obviously relevant here.

These are the questions that I am exploring. They are right to the point, how much are rf transmitters messing up weather? It is wise to be skeptical and start out with a 'not much, after all look at these piddly transmitters compared to an 800km/second solar wind, pffhhh...'

At some point the specific research projects have to be looked at. How many months of the year is HAARP transmitting? How many hours are they beaming energy skyward? What are the changes that occur? How many of these specific experiments are creating significant airglows, artificial ionospheric layers and acoustic gravity waves?

If anyone wants to jump ahead and insert some data, that would be great!

Bryan

 

[Ross Marsden]

The research says rf transmitters alter gravity waves (and can create gravity waves) rossby waves, internal buoyancy waves, acoustic gravity waves. The action of gravity waves that are created and modified by transmissions effects meteorological waves.
...

Would you please stop conflating and bundling all this stuff together into impressive sounding but actually meaningless statements?
rf transmitters do not alter rossby waves! Do you even know What Rossby Waves are?

The correct term is "acoustic-gravity waves", not "acoustic gravity waves" which is meaningless.
Please use these terms correctly. Thanks.

 

[electrojet]

Would you please stop conflating and bundling all this stuff together into impressive sounding but actually meaningless statements?
rf transmitters do not alter rossby waves! Do you even know What Rossby Waves are?

The correct term is "acoustic-gravity waves", not "acoustic gravity waves" which is meaningless.
Please use these terms correctly. Thanks.

Your welcome. Acoustic-gravity waves from this point forward.

I am familiar with descriptions of rossby waves. Which led me to specifically research them. They are mentioned repeatedly in the scientific papers on atmospheric dynamics. Where did you see information stating that they do not interact with gravity waves? I am not focusing on these waves in particular, but they appear in the research very often. Could I cite work that shows gravity waves and rossby waves interact? Yes!

Bryan

 

[justanairlinepilot]

Gravity waves are carriers of energy. A mountain generated wave propagates vertically (overall) growing in amplitude as it rises. It then encounters an artificial ionospheric layer 60 miles up and secondary waves are transferred downwards or the wave tunnels into the artifical layer. What are the effects? Only down to the stratopause?

How do gravity waves impact ozone dispersion? Are gravity waves coupled with the polar vortex?

When we cross the rocky mountains at 35,000 feet, we may encounter orographic turbulence if it is windy on the surface, yes. This turbulence may extend eastward into Nebraska as a result.


So, back to my original question, how does HAARP create gravity waves? By affecting the ionosphere and mesosphere, thus causing gravity waves in the troposphere? Is that what you are saying?

 

[Pete Tar]

HAARP HF Transmitter Performance Calculator

+

The HAARP Ionospheric Observatory uses numerous scientific instruments to study the earth's geomagnetic environment and to assess radio propagation conditions. These instruments operate continuously, monitoring and archiving the naturally occurring variations that take place in response to the sun's day-to-day and long term variability. Current geophysical data is available from the scientific instruments in the listing below.

Content from External Source

These might be a place to start?

 

[electrojet]

When we cross the rocky mountains at 35,000 feet, we may encounter orographic turbulence if it is windy on the surface, yes. This turbulence my extend eastward into Nebraska as a result.

So, back to my original question, how does HAARP create gravity waves? By affecting the ionosphere and mesosphere, thus causing gravity waves in the troposphere? Is that what you are saying?

No that is not what being stated.

HAARP creates gravity waves by causing ionospheric instabilities. The waves are created in the upper stratosphere or mesosphere. These waves transport energy and deposit them in the upper and middle atmosphere. Acoustic-gravity waves interact with other waves (such as planetary waves). The transfers of energy, including downwards, exerts an influence on the large scale subsidence (aka large scales descent). In the stratosphere, downward effects modifies synoptic scale eddies, circulation, downwelling of the polar vortex, zonal winds, meridional circulation and more. It is an indirect coupling. Gravity wave interactions at 75km cause resultant changes in electrodynamics that impact dynamics and chemistry down to the tropopause. The stratosphere is sensitive to external forcing. Modifications such as an artificially created ionospheric region near the stratopause will impact stratospheric circulation and/or ozone transport. A modification of waves in the mesosphere or created gravity waves at 80km will change the dynamics of the large scale descent.


Have You seen elves, jets or sprites, or streamers while flying? Have you flown through turbulence that was not at all expected?

Bryan

 

[Cairenn]

You need to show that HAARP has the power to do anything but local interference. I don't feel that you have shown that. Maybe you need to talk down to me, in more common terms.

 

[Mick West]

HAARP creates gravity waves by causing ionospheric instabilities. The waves are created in the upper stratosphere or mesosphere. These waves transport energy and deposit them in the upper and middle atmosphere.

Let's think about that bit for a while. How much energy?

HAARP works by heating the ionosphere, so let's say it's creating a gravity wave by heating the air for a few minutes, so the air heats and rises, and then switching off for a few minutes, so the air cools and falls. So let's say for the sake of argument that this is creating a gravity wave in the ionosphere.

So you have this wave, with 3.6MW of energy, starting in a volume of air that is about 30 miles in diameter. Gravity waves propagate like ripples, so at 1000 miles away the intensity of the signal is (30^2)/(1000^2) = 0.0009 what it was over Alaska, where the energy density was already a stunningly low 3 microwatts per cm2.

How is this piddling small amount of energy going to do anything? less than a billionth of a watt per cm2. It is no more going to affect the weather than rocking a boat at the bottom of Niagara falls is going to create ripples at the top.

 

[Cairenn]

Why are we not seeing weather effects from solar storms? They are many times stronger than anything from HAARP.

Even if all the transmitted power from the IRI was absorbed by the ionosphere it would take more than 33,000 HAARP-scale IRIs, transmitting simultaneously to account for just 1 percent of the auroral ionosphere's energy budget. Another way of showing the vast difference between the amount of energy that would be dissipated in the atmosphere by the HAARP transmissions and natural processes is through a comparison of the local dissipation power in terms of power densities. The maximum power density of the IRI transmitted waves would be about 30 milliwatts per square meter (mW/m2) at 50 miles altitude decreasing to 1 mW/m2 at 186 miles altitude in the F region. In comparison, the densities of power dissipated by an aurora could exceed 2 W/m2, or roughly 2000 times greater then the expected maximum dissipation due to the absorption of the HAARP high frequency transmissions in the F region. Even the daily absorption of solar radiation easily exceeds the most intense, low altitude HAARP-ionduced energy deposition rate by a factor of ten.


Background:
Th e source of the energy respon-
sible for heating the ionosphere and atmosphere is
the Sun. Normally, solar radiation is the primary
contributor. However, during solar disturbances, the
solar wind plays an increasingly important role. Th e
solar wind is a plasma that continually streams radi-
ally away from the Sun. Th e solar wind also carries a
magnetic fi eld called the Interplanetary Magnetic Field
(IMF). During solar storms, the solar wind is greatly
enhanced, with the density and IMF strength many
times the nominal values. Th ese solar storm events can
last more than a day and are often associated with the
occurrence of a coronal mass ejection (CME) on the
Sun.

Content from External Source

 

[justanairlinepilot]

Have You seen elves, jets or sprites, or streamers while flying? Have you flown through turbulence that was not at all expected?

Bryan

I have flown through clear-air turbulence, it's not expected because I can't see it. Any time we pass through clouds we expect turbulence, but sometime (generally cirrus clouds), it's a smooth ride. Clear-air turbulence is a result of upper tropospheric sheer usually in the vicinity of the jet stream, or orographic waves. I've never seen elves, jets, sprites, or streamers; I have over 11,000 hours of flight time which of about 1/3rd of that is at night. I've flow around some amazing lighting shows, however. I've also seen Aurora Borealis on the rare occasion.


I'm familiar with the Hadley Cell, and how it works on a geo scale, but I can't imagine HAARP would do anything on a geo scale. More so, I'd have to agree with Mick's reasoning on this subject.

We don't fly above the tropopause, i.e., stratosphere and up, because it's too warm and too little air for aircraft performance. But I do understand that this region of atmosphere characteristics are zonal wind flow and smooth air with regard to flying. With that said, I'm confused about your information and how these "gravity waves" interact with the various boundaries of the atmosphere. The turbulence that we experience is not a result of HAARP and gravity waves; to clarify I'm referring to micro-scale.

 

[Ross Marsden]

Your welcome. Acoustic-gravity waves from this point forward.

I am familiar with descriptions of rossby waves. Which led me to specifically research them. They are mentioned repeatedly in the scientific papers on atmospheric dynamics. Where did you see information stating that they do not interact with gravity waves? I am not focusing on these waves in particular, but they appear in the research very often. Could I cite work that shows gravity waves and rossby waves interact? Yes!

Bryan

Yes you probably can, but you will not find work that says that "rf transmitters alter [...] rossby waves".

 

[justanairlinepilot]

HAARP creates gravity waves by causing ionospheric instabilities. The waves are created in the upper stratosphere or mesosphere.

So, if HAARP creates gravity waves in the ionosphere, then what is creating the waves in the stratosphere and mesosphere?

These waves transport energy and deposit them in the upper and middle atmosphere.

Deposit what? What is "them"?


You may find these articles interesting:

http://science.nasa.gov/science-news/science-at-nasa/2001/ast11oct_1/

This one is a presentation and doesn't include the narrated information.

http://www.vsp.ucar.edu/Heliophysics/pdf/Walterscheid_08.pdf

 

[MikeC]

It is no more going to affect the weather than rocking a boat at the bottom of Niagara falls is going to create ripples at the top.

I'm tempted to say "So you admit that they do actually affect the weather!" - because such minor considerations as scale are unimportant to the truly fanatical and they will take such an "admission" as proving their case!!

 

[Mick West]

Let's think about that bit for a while. How much energy?

HAARP works by heating the ionosphere, so let's say it's creating a gravity wave by heating the air for a few minutes, so the air heats and rises, and then switching off for a few minutes, so the air cools and falls. So let's say for the sake of argument that this is creating a gravity wave in the ionosphere.

So you have this wave, with 3.6MW of energy, starting in a volume of air that is about 30 miles in diameter. Gravity waves propagate like ripples, so at 1000 miles away the intensity of the signal is (30^2)/(1000^2) = 0.0009 what it was over Alaska, where the energy density was already a stunningly low 3 microwatts per cm2.

How is this piddling small amount of energy going to do anything? less than a billionth of a watt per cm2. It is no more going to affect the weather than rocking a boat at the bottom of Niagara falls is going to create ripples at the top.

Something of a correction, the energy density would be proportional to the circumference of the "ripple", not the area, so 30/1000 = 0.03, not 0.009. But still stunningly low.

And keep in mind this is totally ignoring the energy losses in the actual mechanism of gravity wave creation and propagation.

 

[Mick West]

I'm tempted to say "So you admit that they do actually affect the weather!" - because such minor considerations as scale are unimportant to the truly fanatical and they will take such an "admission" as proving their case!!

Like contrails contrail chemtrails and block the sun, so are chemtrail SRM geoengineering.

On that level everything affects the weather. I'm affecting the weather by typing, just not in a detectable manner.

 

[MikeC]

Yep - that's the one!

 

[electrojet]

I'm tempted to say "So you admit that they do actually affect the weather!" - because such minor considerations as scale are unimportant to the truly fanatical and they will take such an "admission" as proving their case!!

What is the evidence? The total radiated power? That is not measuring the effect. I have dozens upon dozens of papers detailing very significant alterations of the ionosphere. There are scientific research articles comparing the density increases to those seen during energetic solar events.

Hi Mike, Let's see your evidence for the scale of gravity wave breaking in the mesosphere? How large and how violent is wave breaking?

Bryan

 

[Mick West]

What is the evidence? The total radiated power? That is not measuring the effect. I have dozens upon dozens of papers detailing very significant alterations of the ionosphere. There are scientific research articles comparing the density increases to those seen during energetic solar events.

Hi Mike, Let's see your evidence for the scale of gravity wave breaking in the mesosphere? How large and how violent is wave breaking?

Bryan

Maybe you should start out with some numbers Bryan. What are the magnitudes involved, and how do they compare to natural phenomena?

 

[electrojet]

Hi Mick,

I believe I addressed Mike's comment about scale. I am asking Mike what the scale and energy is of gravity waves that break in the stratosphere and mesosphere. How is the breaking of waves at 75km characterized?

The significant cascading ionization events detailed in scientific documents is going to be included in future posts. The details do not agree with the HAARP FACT page.

The claim here is that;

Importance of Gravity Waves

Even only fifteen years ago, many scientists regarded gravity waves as simply idle curiosities. Many people considered that they had no real impact on atmospheric motions at any sort of important scale.This attitude has now changed.

Gravity waves carry momentum and energy between different points in the atmosphere. If a gravity wave is generated at a source region (e.g. a mountain) and dissipates somewhere else, this amounts to a transfer of energy and momentum from the first point to the second. When energy and momentum are deposited in the dissipation region, they can alter the mean flow. Meteorologists have realized in the last decade that computer models are not always very good at predicting mean winds, or making good forecasts, and they have now realized that part of the reason for this is that they had not been including gravity wave generation and dissipation in their models. A considerable amount of effort is being turned towards proper parametrization of gravity waves in meteorological models.

In the upper regions of the atmosphere, especially the stratosphere and mesosphere, gravity waves have huge effects. For example, in the mesosphere it has been found that by including gravity waves in computer models, the directions of the winds have in some cases even been reversed relative to the expected wind directions deduced without inclusion of gravity waves! The values deduced with gravity waves included agree better with observations than do the older predictions.

Content from External Source

From; http://www.physics.uwo.ca/~whocking/p103/grav_wav.html

I have not finished with statement B as there are several more links detailing how gravity waves alter weather.

I don't think any of the papers compare gravity wave effects on weather processes being like a gnat on an elephant or a flea on dinosaur or a boat at the bottom of Niagara Falls making ripples that somehow appear above the falls

Bryan

 

[solrey]

Gravity waves carry momentum and energy between different points in the atmosphere.

Content from External Source

Bryan, how much momentum and energy do you think is involved in gravity waves within an atmospheric pressure of 0.2 millibars compared to those at a pressure of something like 10 millibars?

 

[Cairenn]

Numbers ? please. Please rephrase your posts into your own words, one that will answer the questions you have been asked.

I see you posting a lot of links and not ever really explaining them. I asked you about the impact of the solar wind on weather and no answer. Mick asks you for some numbers and another canned response. justapilot asked for how the waves are created in the stratosphere and mesosphere, and again no answer.

Why are you evading our questions?

 

[JFDee]

how much are rf transmitters messing up weather? It is wise to be skeptical

Being skeptical should lead to avoiding premature conclusions.

If the mesosphere is the "most poorly understood part of the atmosphere" (Wikipedia) and the energy levels of the processes and their contributors are not even halfway determined yet, it's a very, very long shot to suggest that HAARP et al. may have the capacity to alter the weather.

About those "piddly transmitters":

HAARP transmits with 3.6 MW for short periods. The global energy amount caused by solar wind alone was measured and calculated to be around 17 TW - every single second.

http://sci.esa.int/science-e/www/object/index.cfm?fobjectid=40261

I don't know how that translates into atmospheric gravity wave energy but it illustrates the relations we are looking at.
Together with the somewhat unsharp statement that the contribution to AGWs from space (those 17 TW) is minor, it is not plausible to assume that the weather can be affected by the existing transmitters.

Nonwithstanding the butterfly effect, of course.

 

[Jazzy]

You may find th(is) article interesting: http://science.nasa.gov/science-news/science-at-nasa/2001/ast11oct_1/

Unlike water waves, which displace the water up and down, planetary waves displace air north and south as they travel around our planet. They form in the troposphere (the lowest part of the atmosphere) and propagate upward, transferring their energy to the stratosphere.

Content from External Source

Electrojet, an analogy that might work for you is that if you blow up and release A BALLOON above the surface of the sea, you do not get a depression in the sea beneath. The sea has a higher density, and remains unaffected.

Fifty miles up and more, where HAARP does its work, is almost deep space (it's more than halfway to the ISS) and the balloon analogy is the stronger for it. There is virtually nothing out there.

Unless you are re-entering on a damaged Shuttle at 17,000 mph, of course, when that thinly-distributed body of air would seem considerably more substantial.

 

[electrojet]

Numbers ? please. Please rephrase your posts into your own words, one that will answer the questions you have been asked.


I see you posting a lot of links and not ever really explaining them. I asked you about the impact of the solar wind on weather and no answer. Mick asks you for some numbers and another canned response. justapilot asked for how the waves are created in the stratosphere and mesosphere, and again no answer.


Why are you evading our questions?

Hi Cairenn,

The solar wind effects on Earth weather is a great question. The prevailing belief is that it does not impact weather down here. As a project I watch space weather and my 7 day forecast. Energetic solar events such as CME's, coronal holes, filament breaking, flares do impact weather significantly. The effect is that the 7 day forecast will be wildly inaccurate during extreme solar activity that is geo-effective. The rest of the time the 7 day will be typically much less inaccurate. After a period of time, you will see this effect to the point that you will be convinced. I've been doing this personally for approx. 10 years. This is not widely embraced by the current scientific paradigm. Stay tuned, it will eventually be accepted and better understood and studied.

Here is one study examing space weather impacting earth weather http://solarnet.projet.latmos.ipsl.fr/IAGA2/IAGA2-Dorman.pdf

Here is another; Swensmark H. “Cosmic rays and Earth’s climate”, Space Sci. Rev., 93, 175–185, 2000.

Look to the Russians for more studies on spaceweather's impact on earth weather. This isn't an endorsed area of research (yet) in many of the other scientific communities.

As another project for the Hurricane season, follow the solar activity and watch for Hurricane formation and rapid development during extreme solar activity. Conversely watch hurricanes weaken during periods of a very quiet Sun. This is just for your own anecdotal fun if you are so predisposed. Last I looked, the research on this was virtually non-existent in the establishment. You will see a correlation if you follow it. How many named storms this year? How many rapid fire flare eruptions will there be during the hurricane season?

As for the above, it's all anecdotal and a developing area of science. Understanding the dynamics is being re-written currently, much as gravity wave's impact on weather is a developing area of inquiry.

As for comments by the others, I very much appreciate them and will be letting the research answer their questions. The questions Pilot, JFD, Mick, Jazzy, Cairenn and others have asked is beneficial as their statements and questions will be addressed and the relevant material quoted in future posts.

The physics of the mesosphere is very interesting. The prevailing paradigm is that the lack of atmosphere means not much impact. So the dusty plasma research is going to be included in future posts. The plasma effects will be addressed and the importance of these processes will be quite perception 'altering'.

Peace, Bryan

 

[electrojet]

Gravity waves carry momentum and energy between different points in the atmosphere.

Content from External Source

Bryan, how much momentum and energy do you think is involved in gravity waves within an atmospheric pressure of 0.2 millibars compared to those at a pressure of something like 10 millibars?

Thanks Solrey, this is a key question. The atmospheric density is one issue.

The other issue is that there are plasma bands running above earth. So how do these belts of energy correlate to Earth weather? There is a link. That is increasingly being explored.

Please read this entire link closely. I am on a little itty bitty phone. The letters on the screen are micro sized. I will later exerpt the more relevant content. The title of the release is bunk of course, the pesky Russians have known about the connections for decades. The surprise of the researchers parallels the point of view of Jazzy, Mike, Mick and Solrey. ...But, but, but theres no atmosphere up there!!! It appears as though plasma physics still has some mysteries. I thought Hawking had it all figured out

Using pictures from IMAGE, the team discovered four pairs of bright regions where the ionosphere was almost twice as dense as the average. Three of the bright pairs were located over tropical rainforests with lots of thunderstorm activity -- the Amazon Basin in South America, the Congo Basin in Africa, and Indonesia. A fourth pair appeared over the Pacific Ocean. Researchers confirmed that the thunderstorms over the three tropical rainforest regions produce tides of air in our atmosphere using a computer simulation developed by the National Center for Atmospheric Research, Boulder, Colo., called the Global Scale Wave Model.

Content from External Source

http://www.nasa.gov/centers/goddard/news/topstory/2006/space_weather_link.html

Earthquakes produce very significant effects in the ionosphere regardless of the pressure.

Bryan