Will chemtrails or covert geoengineering show up in varves, ice cores, or tree rings?

[SeriouslyDebatable]

It's irrelevant as long as you can't even show that there is an ongoing crime.

Those past crimes were not detected while they were ongoing. They were always caught AFTER they had done something, not WHILE they were doing it. It's not like they make an announcement... They were doing these things in secret!

 

[SeriouslyDebatable]

"According to the contrail supporters here, there are no conspicuous flight patterns as they can all be explained... for example flights circling around are always in a "holding pattern"."

Yeah, why not?! It's just as normal of an assumption than assuming the green things at the end of tree branches are leaves. There is NO REASON to believe the circling flights are anything more. Unless, one is overly suspicious...which sounds like a personal problem to me.

Of course, there are many reasons why a flight is put into a holding pattern. Is it "normal" to see a plane making a circular pattern and say to oneself " I wonder what that pilot is up to...looks mighty suspicious to me"...especially if that person has never studied aviation?

To me...it's abnormal to do so. Pretending that one understands aviation because they accept the "chemtrail" hoax as truth, is just silly.

And that goes for ALL "conspicuous (conspicuous to WHOM!?!?) flight patterns"...not just circling.

I never assumed anything. I used the word "suspect" and I have explained why several times in this thread now ad nauseum.
Holding patterns may seem normal but I do not know where why when and how they are performed and some may not be normal, but I need to do more research. I suspect any means that the government could use to spray us with until it is ruled out, seeing as how they have sprayed us before.

 

[Noble1965]

Let me rephrase that.
"Chemicals have been sprayed in the past, however we still have no solid evidence of chemicals being sprayed currently"

None of the things you listed has ever been proven to have happened at any time.

Hehe, of COURSE people are "spraying chemicals"...

Cloud seeding, crop dusting...and even weather manipulation experimentation are all probably happening on some scale...somewhere.. at some time.

But, that's still a FAR CRY from a global, secretive operation....AKA, a conspiracy.

 

[Noble1965]

Those past crimes were not detected while they were ongoing. They were always caught AFTER they had done something, not WHILE they were doing it. It's not like they make an announcement... They were doing these things in secret!

What "crimes"?!

 

[Noble1965]

I never assumed anything. I used the word "suspect" and I have explained why several times in this thread now ad nauseum.

Oh, so based on your lack of knowledge in these subjects...you "suspect" wrongdoing?! That changes everything. Pardon me!

 

[SeriouslyDebatable]

What "crimes"?!

Read this thread. I linked to my sources.

Oh, so based on your lack of knowledge in these subjects...

That is an assumption. I am not basing my suspicions on a lack of knowledge, I am basing my suspicions on events that have happened before and can happen again. That is my basis. The subjects that I lack knowledge of, have no bearing on the basis of my suspicions.

 

[SeriouslyDebatable]

Hehe, of COURSE people are "spraying chemicals"...

Cloud seeding, crop dusting...and even weather manipulation experimentation are all probably happening on some scale...somewhere.. at some time.

But, that's still a FAR CRY from a global, secretive operation....AKA, a conspiracy.

Don't compare apples to oranges. Much worse has been sprayed in the past. It could be happening now.

 

[Jay Reynolds]

Don't compare apples to oranges. Much worse has been sprayed in the past. It could be happening now.

But, does it show up in ice cores, varves, or tree rings?
No.

 

[SeriouslyDebatable]

But, does it show up in ice cores, varves, or tree rings?
No.

We have not determined that yet. That was the original point of this thread. You just said earlier that there was no need to take the tests because we already took rainwater tests. So why don't you show some test results then?

 

[Noble1965]

Read this thread. I linked to my sources.



That is an assumption. I am not basing my suspicions on a lack of knowledge, I am basing my suspicions on events that have happened before and can happen again. That is my basis. The subjects that I lack knowledge of, have no bearing on the basis of my suspicions.

What "events" have happened in the past that have anything to do with a global conspiracy which involves "spraying chemicals" from airplanes? What does any of that do with airplanes circling?

 

[Noble1965]

Don't compare apples to oranges. Much worse has been sprayed in the past. It could be happening now.

yeah..."could be"...but there is absolutely ZERO evidence to support any of the global spray program conspiracy claims.

"could be" can apply to many things...It doesn't cut it...

BTW...where did I compare apples to oranges? SOME chemmies claim that cloud seeding and crop dusting ARE "chemtrails". I was just referring to the small scale operation.

Are the "crimes" you are referring to done on a small scale?

Again, WHAT "crimes"...don't make me look through your past posts..I asked you for an answer. If you are referring to testing done to see how agents were dispersed through the air in the UK...how is that a "crime"?

Please, whatever link you send me...please be prepared to show/explain what "crime" occurred.

 

[SeriouslyDebatable]

don't make me look through your past posts..I asked you for an answer.

I would rather not repeat myself, again. Sorry! If it really interests you then send me a pm and we can have a side discussion. As for the evidence of why I am suspicious, I have already said that earlier as well... and furthermore we have spent way too much time in this thread debating why I have my suspicions. This debate is not supposed to be focused on me.

Now unless someone can find the work that has already been done on ice cores, tree rings and/or varves... then there is really no need to post any further in this thread. Someone either needs to find the tests... and their results... or they need to bring it up to someone who is doing rainwater tests.

 

[Jay Reynolds]

So why don't you show some test results then?

That was done on page 1 of this thread, before it got derailed for six pages of "Well, they committed criminal acts before........."

I have to wonder sometimes if you and George are purposefully straying away from the original thread question?

 

[Noble1965]

Uh huh.....

 

[SeriouslyDebatable]

None of that stuff was proven to be conclusive.

1)Those tests are not recent.
2)I do not see any specific test results. (results show only aluminum)
3)The tests are limited in scope to their geographical region.
4)There are not many other tests to compare it to.

 

[SeriouslyDebatable]

That was done on page 1 of this thread, before it got derailed for six pages of "Well, they committed criminal acts before........."

I have to wonder sometimes if you and George are purposefully straying away from the original thread question?

I have answered questions which have strayed away from the topic, but to stray away from the topic requires someone to ask a question which is off topic.

EDIT: This was my idea about ice cores, varves and tree rings. I asked it on another forum and mick posted the question here as a new thread. I would not purposefully derail my own topic that I want an answer to.

 

[Noble1965]

None of that stuff was proven to be conclusive.

1)Those tests are not recent.
2)I do not see any specific test results. (results show only aluminum)
3)The tests are limited in scope to their geographical region.
4)There are not many other tests to compare it to.

Are there any tests..ever...that show there is anything to be concerned about?

 

[Mick West]

I'll try to split this thread in two later, so the varve idea can retain focus.

 

[SeriouslyDebatable]

Are there any tests..ever...that show there is anything to be concerned about?

Things in the past were discovered later through other means than tests. Testing would provide answers faster than waiting until there is a smoking gun.
There are things that you cannot see that can still concern you. An example is bacteria. This is why we wash our hands. Testing for alleged chemtrails is a new phenomenon and very little testing has been done other than rain tests which have shown to be inconclusive. The concerns may differ from person to person as I said, so to alleviate all possibilities of concern for everyone let us not focus on what concerns them, rather we should focus on how to get the facts. I am new to the debate here and I have no contact info or previous correspondence with any chemtrail promoters who have done the rainwater testing. If someone here wants to ask them to test varves and the like, then I am sure they would be up to it. They are already doing testing on rain water so they are going to spend their money on testing either way. who cares if they spend more of their own money on different types of tests.. . If nobody else asks them then I guess I will try to contact them. Let me know if anyone has attempted to ask them about this yet.

 

[Noble1965]

Things in the past were discovered later through other means than tests. Testing would provide answers faster than waiting until there is a smoking gun.
There are things that you cannot see that can still concern you. An example is bacteria. This is why we wash our hands. Testing for alleged chemtrails is a new phenomenon and very little testing has been done other than rain tests which have shown to be inconclusive. The concerns may differ from person to person as I said, so to alleviate all possibilities of concern for everyone let us not focus on what concerns them, rather we should focus on how to get the facts. I am new to the debate here and I have no contact info or previous correspondence with any chemtrail promoters who have done the rainwater testing. If someone here wants to ask them to test varves and the like, then I am sure they would be up to it. They are already doing testing on rain water so they are going to spend their money on testing either way. who cares if they spend more of their own money on different types of tests.. . If nobody else asks them then I guess I will try to contact them. Let me know if anyone has attempted to ask them about this yet.

Is there any evidence that anything we can see or can't see is being released from airplanes on a global scale as part of some conspiracy?!

I can say the same thing ("there are things you cannot see that still concern you") about drinking water, vegetables, popcorn..whatever. The fact remains that there is NO INDICATION that anything is going on...regardless of how much you WANT there to be.

Remember, this whole hoax began with what could be seen behind jet engines..the VISIBLE trails...and as the facts are presented to the chemmies...the "conspiracy" evolves...because they just can't admit there isn't anything to support the claims! It's now gotten to the point where nothing has to be seen..or detected in ANY way...anywhere...for there to be some sort of secret spray program. It's absurd.

 

[Jay Reynolds]

If nobody else asks them then I guess I will try to contact them.

Good luck with that!

Remember, this whole hoax began with what could be seen behind jet engines..the VISIBLE trails...and as the facts are presented to the chemmies...the "conspiracy" evolves...

The chemtrails promoters are content to have their followers prancing around chasing will-o-the wisps everywhere except to the source.
They need to discover the exact identity of the VISIBLE trails. The planes that make them don't stay in the air. They don't disappear. They exist. They can be recorded. They can be identified.

Ironic isn't it that an absolute maniac named Peekay22 is far closer to the truth than hundreds if not thousands of other chemtrail conscious activists?

But its true. The guy is practically an Einstein compared to the average.

And Michael J. Murphy isn't saying a word about it.

You need to pay attention just as much to what a liar doesn't want to talk about as what he does, because he knows his vulnerability probably better than you do.

 

[JFDee]

You do not know personally what normal is until you have a control to compare it to. Everything is suspicious to me until I understand how it works

Those past crimes were not detected while they were ongoing.

Are you aware that there is a huge number of invisible crimes that might be going on secretly at this moment? An infinite number to be exact?

That's a lot of suspecting to do, and frankly, I wonder how you can live with that. Seems unhealthy to me. And why suspecting chemical spraying, of all possible non-detectable actions?

It looks like you don't trust reasonable explanations until you verified them yourself. Well, I think you know that this road will never end. You can't study all sciences, can't be at the bore hole in the Arctic, can't verify all those tree bark tests personally.

Where do you draw the line when deciding how much verification and research is enough? Do you know that at some point you have to rely on knowledge and findings (or non-findings!) by other people?

 

[George B]

Are you aware that there is a huge number of invisible crimes that might be going on secretly at this moment? An infinite number to be exact?

That's a lot of suspecting to do, and frankly, I wonder how you can live with that. Seems unhealthy to me. And why suspecting chemical spraying, of all possible non-detectable actions?

It looks like you don't trust reasonable explanations until you verified them yourself. Well, I think you know that this road will never end. You can't study all sciences, can't be at the bore hole in the Arctic, can't verify all those tree bark tests personally.

Where do you draw the line when deciding how much verification and research is enough? Do you know that at some point you have to rely on knowledge and findings (or non-findings!) by other people?

Since you require concrete scientific verifiable evidence before debating about anything . . . why waste your time talking about conspiracies at all . . . including Chemtrails . . . religion, politics, literature, history, philosophy are all very ethereal things . . . very little can be proved . . . just a bunch of speculation . . .

 

[Noble1965]

Since you require concrete scientific verifiable evidence before debating about anything . . . why waste your time talking about conspiracies at all . . . including Chemtrails . . . religion, politics, literature, history, philosophy are all very ethereal things . . . very little can be proved . . . just a bunch of speculation . . .

When it's OBVIOUS that people are spreading ignorance about aviation and science...those that understand the aviation and science tend to want to spread the truth....weird...huh?

 

[George B]

When it's OBVIOUS that people are spreading ignorance about aviation and science...those that understand the aviation and science tend to want to spread the truth....weird...huh?

How one spreads the TRUTH is unfortunately many times just as important as the truth itself . . . for if no one listens to you it matters little if you are telling the TRUTH or not . . .

 

[SeriouslyDebatable]

The main promoters of the chemtrail theory may have gotten part of it wrong, but that does not mean you need to throw the baby out with the bathwater.

You always compare all chemtrail skeptics with the chemtrail promoters. Just because they say that visible trails are a sign of chemtrails, does not mean every single person who is skeptical about things agrees with the authors who happen to be at the front of the movement. They might like chocolate ice cream, whereas I prefer vanilla. See? It is easy to see how not everyone agrees with everything. Ok?

 

[SeriouslyDebatable]

Are you aware that there is a huge number of invisible crimes that might be going on secretly at this moment? An infinite number to be exact?

But we do not have any past instances of leprechauns robbing any robot cats, however we do have past instances of the government spraying people in secret. That is where you draw the line... obviously. Stop being absurd.

 

[Danny55]

We have past instances of lots of things, doesn't mean they are happening now. EG are the USA sending people to the moon? They've done it in the past, they might be doing it now. Doesn't matter if there's no evidence, they might be keeping it secret. The UK might be declaring war on Germany, they've done it in the past. Haven't seen any vikings raiding, but that doesn't mean that it's not happening as they have done it in the past.

 

[George B]

We have past instances of lots of things, doesn't mean they are happening now. EG are the USA sending people to the moon? They've done it in the past, they might be doing it now. Doesn't matter if there's no evidence, they might be keeping it secret. The UK might be declaring war on Germany, they've done it in the past. Haven't seen any vikings raiding, but that doesn't mean that it's not happening as they have done it in the past.

Do you really think UK would attack Germany . . . ?? Wow!! I am now worried . . .

If there had been political scientists, members of Parliament talking about the possibility of course we would be concerned . . . since the geoengineers favorite global warming mitigation is injection of sulfur compounds in to the stratosphere and there are many scientific papers written about such proposals . . . I think it is more likely . . .

http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/authors/e/edward_teller.html
http://www.fas.org/man/eprint/leitenberg/weather.pdf
http://www.hoover.org/publications/hoover-digest/article/6791​

 

[George B]

If you understand the man's philosophy (Edward Teller) you understand how an Intentional Covert Atmospheric Aerosol Injection Program (ICAAIP) could have been implemented . . .

My experience has been in a short 77 years that in the end when you fight for a desperate cause and have good reasons to fight, you usually win.
Edward Teller

Read more at http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/authors/e/edward_teller.html#4YpTb5itr1DQQsQ1.99​

Content from External Source

​

A fact is a simple statement that everyone believes. It is innocent, unless found guilty. A hypothesis is a novel suggestion that no one wants to believe. It is guilty, until found effective.
Edward Teller

Read more at http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/authors/e/edward_teller.html#4YpTb5itr1DQQsQ1.99

Content from External Source

Injecting sunlight-scattering particles into the stratosphere appears to be a promising approach. Why not do that?
http://www.hoover.org/publications/hoover-digest/article/6791

Content from External Source

​

 

[Mick West]

But we do not have any past instances of leprechauns robbing any robot cats, however we do have past instances of the government spraying people in secret. That is where you draw the line... obviously. Stop being absurd.

We do have past evidence of robot cats, and of government spys using robots cats. Why are you trying to discredit robot cats by linking them with leprechauns?

However I have no evidence that my local cats are robots - they just look suspicious to me.

That's about the size of the chemtrail argument. Sure they COULD be spraying invisible and undetectable chemicals. You might even argue that it's the type of thing they are likely to do. But there's no actual evidence that they are doing it.

 

[JFDee]

Since you require concrete scientific verifiable evidence before debating about anything

I'd like to see concrete scientific evidence for claims that involve science. Especially those that claim concrete, but invisible and undetectable actions.

You implied that this goes for "anything".

BTW, I am worried that conspiracy bunk does actually start to get really harmful, to indiviuals and to the society. The bunk spreading requires an opposition. No waste of time.

 

[George B]

We do have past evidence of robot cats, and of government spys using robots cats. Why are you trying to discredit robot cats by linking them with leprechauns?

However I have no evidence that my local cats are robots - they just look suspicious to me.

That's about the size of the chemtrail argument. Sure they COULD be spraying invisible and undetectable chemicals. You might even argue that it's the type of thing they are likely to do. But there's no actual evidence that they are doing it.

“Robotic cat” illness mystifies vets
April 12, 2012
Courtesy of Sage Publications
and World Science staff
Sci­en­tists are on the hunt for a path­o­gen they say may be caus­ing a mys­tery con­di­tion af­flict­ing cats: they are start­ing to walk like robots.http://www.world-science.net/othernews/120412_robotcat.htm

Content from External Source

 

[George B]

I'd like to see concrete scientific evidence for claims that involve science. Especially those that claim concrete, but invisible and undetectable actions.

You implied that this goes for "anything".

BTW, I am worried that conspiracy bunk does actually start to get really harmful, to indiviuals and to the society. The bunk spreading requires an opposition. No waste of time.

And the opposition requires opposition . . . just to keep it honest . . . belief often transcends facts . . . the perception of facts are limited to the five senses and are often ill observed . . .

 

[JFDee]

But we do not have any past instances of leprechauns robbing any robot cats, however we do have past instances of the government spraying people in secret. That is where you draw the line... obviously. Stop being absurd.

I did not talk about robot cats. With the same reason you suspect chemical spraying, you could suspect continuous release of toxic waste underground, ongoing covert CIA financing of the rebel faction in a country of your choice or other issues.

What I find absurd is to pick something as ordinary as contrails.

Again: do you accept that at some point you have to rely on knowledge and findings (or non-findings!) by other people?

 

[Mick West]

“Robotic cat” illness mystifies vets
April 12, 2012
Courtesy of Sage Publications
and World Science staff
Scientists are on the hunt for a pathogen they say may be causing a mystery condition afflicting cats: they are starting to walk like robots.http://www.world-science.net/othernews/120412_robotcat.htm

Content from External Source

This is such an obvious cover story to explain the sightings of robot cats. Do they think we are stupid?

But we are all veering off into speculation and semantics here. Would anyone like to disagree with the assertion that there's no actual evidence of secret spraying? Because that's really all I'm trying to establish. You can discuss what MIGHT be happening 'til the cows come home, but if there's no evidence then it's pretty academic.

 

[George B]

I did not talk about robot cats. With the same reason you suspect chemical spraying, you could suspect continuous release of toxic waste underground, ongoing covert CIA financing of the rebel faction in a country of your choice or other issues.

What I find absurd is to pick something as ordinary as contrails.

Again: do you accept that at some point you have to rely on knowledge and findings (or non-findings!) by other people?

You have actually made some good points . . . why pick chemtrails to believe . . . Hmmmmmm???? Maybe the original observations and theories were incorrect but once one investigates and finds . . . history, laws, patents, scientific studies, dire warnings about global warming and solar maximum, etc. . . . one has to reconsider the totality of the indirect and circumstantial evidence in light of the political and human behaviors witnessed over the last 40 years or so . . . . .

 

[George B]

This is such an obvious cover story to explain the sightings of robot cats. Do they think we are stupid?

But we are all veering off into speculation and semantics here. Would anyone like to disagree with the assertion that there's no actual evidence of secret spraying? Because that's really all I'm trying to establish. You can discuss what MIGHT be happening 'til the cows come home, but if there's no evidence then it's pretty academic.

I freely agree there is no direct, scientifically validated evidence that chemtrails exist . . . however, that does not stop people from believing they are possible or even likely . . . the problem is you don't understand how people can believe they exist in the face of such a lack of direct concrete evidence . . . simple, humans do not base their belief on science . . . you might but many, many don't . . .

 

[George B]

This is such an obvious cover story to explain the sightings of robot cats. Do they think we are stupid?

I agree "they are starting to walk like robots" no one will believe that real cats are walking like robots . . . an obvious trial balloon to test the gullibility of the public . . . they can't fool me . . . No Sir!!!! . . .

 

[Mick West]

I freely agree there is no direct, scientifically validated evidence that chemtrails exist . . . however, that does not stop people from believing they are possible or even likely . . . the problem is you don't understand how people can believe they exist in the face of such a lack of direct concrete evidence . . . simple, humans do not base their belief on science . . . you might but many, many don't . . .

Of course I understand how people can believe it. It's perfectly natural, ordinary, and expected, for people to believe in things without evidence. What's not to understand?