1. MH370 speculation has become excessive recently. Metabunk is not a forum for creating theories by speculation. It's a forum for examining claims, and seeing if they hold up. Please respect this and keep threads on-topic. There are many other forums where speculation is welcome.
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  1. Pete Tar

    Pete Tar Moderator Staff Member

    (discussions can be had by PM if you feel the need)
     
  2. Pete Tar

    Pete Tar Moderator Staff Member

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  3. Svartbjørn

    Svartbjørn Senior Member

    Thanks dad :p
     
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  4. Pete Tar

    Pete Tar Moderator Staff Member

    OP updated to reflect pertinent thread points.
    (let me know if I missed any)
     
    Last edited: May 3, 2014
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  5. David Coulter

    David Coulter Active Member

    That is the nonsensical part of their claim: that light at wavelengths detectable by multispectral imaging sensors contain NMR information. "In the Earth's magnetic field, NMR frequencies are in the audio frequency range, or the very low frequency and ultra low frequency bands of the radio frequency spectrum." (Wikipedia). You can't measure those frequencies with multispectral imagery

    Another variant of the technique claims to detect non-existent "microleptons". http://physicsworld.com/cws/article/news/2002/jul/03/oil-companys-microlepton-technology-dismissed
     
  6. David Coulter

    David Coulter Active Member

    OMG, thank you Interp for a good start to Sunday morning! I had tears I was laughing so hard!
     
  7. David Coulter

    David Coulter Active Member

    An intact plane would be easy to detect with conventional sub hunting active SONAR. It would ring like a bell compared to the muddy sea floor. So the "soon to be released" argument that the Bangladesh navy was not up to the job is nonsense.
     
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  8. David Coulter

    David Coulter Active Member

    We need a third party debunker from a university or government department (Lamont-Doherty, JPL, etc.). Someone like me who does this stuff in a legitimate way as a consultant would just be accused of "trashing a competitor". I doubt this is possible as managers and/or admin would not like the potential exposure to a lawsuit.
     
  9. bume

    bume Member

    Just a quick comment on who's at fault and did the decision:

    https://au.news.yahoo.com/sa/a/23036893/exploration-company-believes-it-may-have-found-mh370/

    So "their team in the Ukraine" made the decision. I haven't seen any indication GeoResonance would actually have their own personnel in Ukraine, so it's highly likely that means Sevastopol directly. My guess is that the decision and the whole thing originates from Sevastopol, they then checked their list of partners and decided that it's best to make this public through their Australian partner, for obvious reasons.

    Also that quotation above also points to a spy sat being used in my opinion.

    Whether this is a scam or not is another question. It might be that they actually honestly believe their own tech so it might be "just" a case of misguided science. And it might be that at least some of it works to some extent at least for the original purpose, and at some point when the military use was over they tried to convert their work to commercial use and at that point thought it might do something it really can't. Does that Gokh fellow have any military connections so is there any reason to assume they would have used his inventions before such commercialization started?
     
  10. David Coulter

    David Coulter Active Member


    I am willing to give these people the benefit of the doubt and agree that they might honestly believe it works. But Russians also honestly believe that psychics are real. As I and others have pointed out, the science is junk. Elemental signatures can not "pass through" a multispectral satellite image. Elemental measurements require either standard chemical analysis or contact analysis with XRF or LIBS.

    Frankly Bume, I don't understand why you want to be an apologist/promoter for this company. Each day brings more news of the lack of the "precisely" located aircraft in the Bay of Bengal. After all, the promoted technology according to the company website, can precisely identify the depth, size, shape, location, and composition of anything. Sorry to sound a bit harsh on what I understand is a collegiate site, but these are the exact words I would use when peer reviewing a paper.
     
  11. txt29

    txt29 Active Member

    Dr. Gokh has connections to everyone, including extraterrests, ancient Egyptians, and underwater civilizations hidden deep in the ocean. Now prove its not true.
     
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  12. InterpreDemon

    InterpreDemon Member

    Lying flat on the bottom with all that metallic surface area, any commercial trawler could see it with its fish finder.
     
  13. DaveL

    DaveL New Member

    Hello everyone, I've been tracking this in the news media and thought I'd join in. I'm an electrical engineer by profession.

    It's very much out of the question. The curves are full of dips and peaks, but what you should be paying attention to is the actual magnitude of the imaginary part "k" of the complex IOR. That's what's going to tell you the penetration depth. In the band you mention it never gets smaller than 10^-3, corresponding to a best-case penetration depth of millimeters. That's at the shortest wavelengths mentioned; it just gets worse (much worse) from there.

    I'm sure it was meant to sound like NMR. However the other technical details supplied rule that out completely. In order to put the Larmor frequency of Aluminum into the 10-60 THz range, you would need to apply an ungodly strong magnetic field that would make the most powerful MRI machines look like a fridge magnet. From a satellite. Which would probably pull said satellite back down to earth so fast it would hit like the Tunguska meteorite. Let's just say the prospect of generating such a field twice on two separate days isn't going to be on the menu.
     
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  14. bume

    bume Member

    I don't think I'm an apologist/promoter in any way. I'm just saying that based on what I know I'm not able to say definitely that these people are scamming on purpose instead of just believing something that doesn't work. It's just like with religions, some people are definitely scamming money and others simply actually believe things that make no sense whatsoever. This is especially true for GeoResonance, who seem to be just middlemen, and might not actually understand that well what the tech is supposed to be. Might be that it hasn't even been explained to them that well.

    This also translates directly to your fear of legal issues in publishing this. It's a different matter altogether to directly claim that these people are scammers and doing this just to promote their bs services etc. versus just stating what can be proven by evidence, connections to Sevastopol, various documents etc.

    So yes, they may very well be total scammers doing this on purpose, but until I have some sort of proof of that being done on purpose, I'm just not willilng to state it so directly as many others.
     
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  15. InterpreDemon

    InterpreDemon Member

    The best video I have ever seen for the Turbo Encabulator is this one a couple of Chrysler tech training presenters developed some years back. I did mine as a voice over exercise (I do lots of technical VO work) and find it is a good script to use when you need to practice sounding like you know what you are talking about even if it makes no sense at all, but these Chrysler guys take it to an additional dimension...
     
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  16. bume

    bume Member

    Sure, sure, I believe you :).

    I also found this:

    http://www.bibliotecapleyades.net/piramides/coppens_pyramids04.htm

    Stating he has worked for soviet military for 30+ years. So maybe some of his wild theories were actually used by the military as well.

    There are also some interesting pieces of information how he first developed his magnetic resonance wonder thingy for finding water, apparently had some success with it, and developed it further for airborne use and for finding oil and minerals for which the initial partner was an oil company named Chernomornefte-gaz.

    I'm not really familiar with these Crimean pyramid claims but according to that page he actually found something underground (might not be much, might not have anything to do with this magnetic resonance thing) and from that point onwards his claims have been getting weirder and weirder. As far as Gokh is concerned, he clearly is a bs artist as his claims make no sense and he (not surprisingly) has nothing to back them up.
     
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  17. txt29

    txt29 Active Member

    Yes, he has found an old well, but you do not really need NMR, "geoholographic images" exposed by beta and gamma rays in a nuclear reactor and processed by Kyrilian photography to find such thing. And also I believe there are some well established and scientifically proven methods for searching water, so if he found some water, it in no way confirms any of his pseudo-scientific theories or technologies.
     
    Last edited: May 4, 2014
  18. InterpreDemon

    InterpreDemon Member

    He can very well "state" that, but where is a CV that can be validated? Degrees, universities, companies one can prove worked for, etc. The great thing about claiming to have worked for top-secret military or government programs is that such claims and programs are impossible to validate. For example, my own grandfather told me he knew a rigger who, shortly before his death told him he was involved in the transport of the crashed UFO from the impact site in Roswell to Groom Lake. When he (my granddad) attempted to gain access to Area-51 and asked a patrol guard about the UFO, the guard told him to get lost, which means the story must be true because otherwise they would not be so obviously covering it up, right?

    As to proving something to be not true, I have it on good authority that a few years ago a member of the Illuminati accidentally revealed that they had developed a simple, inexpensive method to transform ordinary seawater into gold, but due to the cabal between the Illuminati, the Trilateral Commission and the Federal Reserve, they feared the limitless supply of gold would upset the global Jewish control of money markets, so all evidence of the technology as well as the developers was eliminated... except for the whistle-blower, of course. Now... prove it's not true.
     
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  19. David Coulter

    David Coulter Active Member

    Absolutely agree on your first point. The real part mainly represents scatter and the imaginary part is absorption, so the imaginary part is the key to penetration depth. I ran variable depth tank tests using a 350nm-1000nm spectrometer some years ago to verify the published complex IOR numbers. The published numbers are good.

    Your second point makes logical sense. Having taken an MRI I know how scary strong the magnetic field is. Was told that any metal on my body could be dangerous (they ran a metal detector over me) and I could feel my skin tingling. And that requires huge coils less than a meter away.
     
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  20. txt29

    txt29 Active Member

    BTW, on the page of the St. Petersburg University showing an information about the Space and Geoinformation Technologies Resource Center (referred to by Dr. Gokh) (http://sgt.spbu.ru/en/), they list all 6 satellites used by the technology. So there are no secret military satellites as far as I can tell:

    Terra, Aqua, SPOT-4, SPOT-5, EROS A, RADARSAT-1

    I guess, it might be possible to find out in what spectrum their imagery is done.

    EDIT - better told the Space and Geoinformation Technologies Resource Center is being referred to by Dr. Gokh, but I do not know whether he is related to it (he is not mentioned there), or whether he just abuses their legit research in remote geophysical sensing. Unlike Gokh, they do not claim any miraculous results, and no processing by nuclear reactor or Kirillian photography (as far as I can see right now).

    Dr. Gokh funded a company with a very similar name in Russia and in Switzerland - Geoinformation Research S.A. (now defunct, available in Archive.org, though: https://web.archive.org/web/20060619073322/http://www.research-centre.org/index.php, https://web.archive.org/web/20070630025124/http://www.geoinformation.ru/). I doubt there is any relation between Gokh's Geoinformation S.A. and the St.Peterburgh's research center. Neither Dr. Gokh, nor any other person from his collaborants are listed on the "staff" page of the St. Peterburg's research center.
     
    Last edited: May 4, 2014
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  21. RobertNC

    RobertNC New Member

    It seems to me that the best way to put a definitive end to the GeoResonance MH370 hoax would be for Malaysian authorities to file criminal charges against them.

    Here is an example from my part of the world of what happens when someone misleads a Search and Rescue mission with false information.
    http://www.wral.com/nc-man-pleads-guilty-to-fake-mayday-calls/13615064/
    This was a prank call that could earn the perpetrator 6 years in prison and $250k fine.

    What GeoResonance has done would seem to fall under the Obstruction of Justice laws that cover activities that impede or mislead an ongoing criminal investigation. The Malaysian authorities are investigating the MH370 loss a criminal act and GeoResonance has certainly caused them to have to divert valuable resources. I suspect that a visit to the back office at GeoResonance would yield a laptop with PhotoShop running and a bunch of manipulated images showing where they constructed the MH370 airplane shaped "anomalies".

    I believe this kind of fraud is damaging on more levels than I can list here and would love to see them held responsible. I just noticed GeoResonance has released another Press Release (May 4) warning that silt from the Ganges River has probably covered the airplane now making it harder to locate. They are continuing to build their cover story.
     
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  22. David Coulter

    David Coulter Active Member

    Here is the problem with these claims - the success of finding something is a function of how common the "something" is, how likely the "something" is to occur in the search area, and how big an anomaly your method generates. Water is common and pretty easy to find using geologic common sense so I don't see finding water as a big success story.

    As an illustration of the latter two points... When I worked for Newmont Mining we routinely would have people pitch new technologies that they wanted to apply on the Carlin Trend (see: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carlin_Unconformity). All they wanted was 10% of anything they discovered. We never took anyone up on these proposals since we held most of the land and mineral rights. But on looking at their examples of previous projects they generated "anomalies" over about 1/3 of the study area. So it was like randomly covering 1/3 of a dart board, in this case a they had a 33% chance of getting 10% interest in a discovery in a highly endowed gold district. If you look at the images on the Georesonance website you will see even worse behavior, almost the entire study area falls within their blobby anomalies.
     
  23. David Coulter

    David Coulter Active Member


    With the exception of Radarsat these are all optical wavelength systems with maximum penetration of ~30m in the UV-blue wavelengths. Radarsat is an active RADAR system and has no penetration capability in water.
     
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  24. David Coulter

    David Coulter Active Member

    OMG, stop it! My sides hurt from laughing.
     
  25. David Coulter

    David Coulter Active Member

    I read the press release, Georesonance seems to be starting to act like the-boy-who-cried-wolf; a PR ploy gone horribly wrong. No need for more ships, silt has probably covered the aircraft, etc. I am sure I can prove the latter is impossible but I really don't want to turn this into a research project on Ganges siltation rates. I think someone here predicted the GR reaction - "it is now covered in a mudslide".

    I agree with Robert, this is a potentially chargeable obstruction. It would be nice to see GR's technology dragged in front of a judge!
     
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  26. NoParty

    NoParty Senior Member

    Thanks for this...Turbo Encabulation technology grossly pre-dates this clip...all the same, I was definitely requiring fluorescent skor motion this lazy Sunday morning...
     
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  27. InterpreDemon

    InterpreDemon Member

    From that release:

    "GeoResonance was not physically involved in verifying the identified location in the Bay of Bengal. The identified object(s) may be covered in silt due to its location on the shelf, south of the mouth of the Ganges River system. The Ganges River has the second greatest water discharge, hence silt may be an issue. Our team of experts hopes the scouring of the Bay of Bengal is (or will be) limited to the deployment of only one sonar-equipped vessel capable of dealing with silt, within the reported area, which is only 500 square metres in size."

    Interviewed by Bret Baier on Fox News Special Report and asked how silt could have built up so quickly a thousand kilometers from the Ganges, the company spokesman replied, "Dude, that was, like, two weeks ago." :)
     
    Last edited: May 4, 2014
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  28. InterpreDemon

    InterpreDemon Member

    NP, my dad was an engineer with the phone company back in the sixties, received that from his boss via inter-office mail (remember those manila envelopes?) asking if the technology could be applied to improve #5 Crossbar switchgear. He found it while going through his memorabilia about ten years ago and mailed me a copy.
     
  29. bume

    bume Member

    OK, so they really have given a very exact search area. In fact so exact that it's much smaller than a plane...

    What do they mean in not being physically involved in verifying the location? The current search there or the location of their original claim?
     
  30. bume

    bume Member

    Yes I know, that's the typical pattern of building up fame by having some lucky successes among a much larger number of failures that nobody knows or remembers.
     
  31. InterpreDemon

    InterpreDemon Member

    You mean "physically involved in verifying the identified location", meaning they can attribute the false lead to the reactor technicians in Sevastopol, the Bangladeshi sonar operator or whatever meaning they need to concoct for the next phase of the hoax.

    The worst thing about such a high visibility hoax is that it is going to give the global charlatan community a bad rap that may take days to overcome.
     
    Last edited: May 4, 2014
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  32. bume

    bume Member

    Basically I'm wondering if they acknowledge here that a third party was involved (and distancing themselves from it) or whether they mean that they haven't been part of the current Bangladesh search operation to verify that they are looking at the correct place GeoResonance have given them.
     
  33. InterpreDemon

    InterpreDemon Member

    Whatever best fits in your mind, whether you are a supporter or detractor. It's like if I said, "I cannot tell you how much I enjoyed talking to you".
     
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  34. bume

    bume Member

    How can it be so hard for journalists to ask even the most obvious questions and clarifications? It's been around a week now and basically all the media has done is repeating each other and the statements GeoResonance have said. And they do not even bother to read things that have already been reported and connect some dots based on those.

    For example that connection to Ukraine, it's been reported quite clearly earlier, but now that GeoResonance doesn't speak about it anymore, it's as if nothing has been ever said about it.

    And think for example what GeoResonance says here publicly:

    http://georesonance.com/georesonance-exploration-technology.html

    That their "typical project involves 47 scientists and nuclear physicists, including 5 professors and 12 PhDs" and that they are using a "nuclear reactor IR-100". How about asking where your scientists are? And isn't it kinda obvious that "professors" refers to somebody who works at some university or such? And I don't think Australia has such a reactor. They are not that common anywhere. I believe there's only a single IR-100 in the Ukraine. Are there even others or is that basically a name for just that one?

    And regarding my earlier question who is in control of those facilities now, here's the answer:

    http://safeenergy.org/2014/04/08/russia-seizes-ukrainian-reactor/
     
  35. txt29

    txt29 Active Member

    I compiled a list of companies who claim to be using the same technology as GeoResonance. They refer to the technology under different names. It can be geo-resonance, geo-holography, geo-heliography, geo-NMR, "Deep Vision", or others. Often they point also to the same patent of Dr. Gokh, or to one of his websites or diagrams. The list is definitely incomplete. If you know about others, let me know and I add them. I only included companies clearly using the Gokh's technology schema. For legal reasons I cannot claim it is a criminal ring or a scam, but it appears to me that the schema shows rather clear signs of a fraud. Some of the companies may tell that they just resell services of a 3rd party in UA, and may have fell victims themselves. However I find it unlikely, I cannot exclude such possibility.

    The list includes also the Sevastopol National University, because its ex-rector seems to have presented the work of Dr. Gokh and co. during a conference of the Black Sea University Network. I hope it will turn out to be some kind of mistake on their part, or an abuse of their identity.
    Then there are these two companies that show similar signs, but do not reveal direct links to Gokh's group. They do not reveal details of their technology, so it is difficult to tell whether they are legit or not:
    Then there are dozens of companies using other debunked technologies like for example microleptons, etc., but that would be off-topic here. I have compiled also a long list of persons involved in the above mentioned companies as CEO or representatives, but it would make the post too long, so I skip it for now.
     
    Last edited: May 4, 2014
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  36. Anti-Spin

    Anti-Spin New Member

    1. If you think that GR is debunked because a few ships couldn't find it in a few days, would you also consider that the resource-laden investigators and searchers of the international parties searching the South Indian Ocean are deceiving us too?
    2. Gokh is irrelevant. His intellectual relation to what GR is doing today is unclear. If he was as far out as he seemed, he possibly had a lot of clout, and people might have worked with him out of convenience (Wouldn't be the first time good workers supported a powerful eccentric). But I consider Gokh a red herring: all I care about is what methods GR is using today, not the details of where they came from, as entertaining as those might be.
    3. That's asserted a lot here, but I still don't see why repeating it a lot in itself makes it true.

    To answer your proposed reductio absurdum: On the face of it, only a fool would consider the idea that a sundered body could ever be reunited. But then would you regard someone who claims to be able to reattaching a finger or larger limb by surgery a charlatan? Also, please don't misunderstand my position. I'm not claiming GeoResonance is necessarily "for real". Just as in the case of reuniting the severed body parts, I'm pondering how what I've seen might be done.
     
  37. bume

    bume Member

    In my opinion it's already pretty evident that they are the head of the monster, so to speak. There's so many references to them that abuse would mean there's quite a few companies which are doing the same abuse, blatant lies in published articles etc. For example here it's clearly stated that they are the owners of the tech:

    http://www.adelaidenow.com.au/busin...nd-gas-in-sa-qld/story-e6fredel-1226631746538

    Great job in compiling that list of companies! There's a couple of others possibly connected but I didn't find their websites for confirmation. At least these:

    Geotech Technology Ltd
    Resonance Exploration Limited

    Both are mentioned here in connection to Dr Pavlo Ivashchenko, one of the owners of relevant patents:

    https://www.duedil.com/director/916167800/pavlo-ivashchenko

    Also “Resonance Exploration Limited”, UK is mentioned here as a customer for couple of projects:

    http://transcomplex.co.uk/en/projects

    One of the customers is also Russian Academy of Sciences. At least Ukrainian Academy of Sciences might be connected, but whether they actually support this tech is unclear. At least it has been claimed they have approved it.
     
  38. bume

    bume Member

    It shouldn't take even days as GeoResonance has provided them a search area which is smaller than a plane. Their own press release states that:


    Gokh is one of the inventors of the tech, very likely the main inventor (only one another mentioned). All this seems to be rooted in his work and early endeavours for commercial utilization of it. How could he be irrelevant?
     
  39. David Coulter

    David Coulter Active Member

    Per the GR press release, the location has been accurately and specifically nailed down to 500m^2. That is the size of a normal suburban property. All that is needed is a few pings, an airplane will ring like a bell.
     
  40. bume

    bume Member

    Vitava business partners and partnership agreements with Sevastopol National University of Nuclear Energy and Ministry for environmental Protection of Ukraine:

    http://www.vitava.si/home/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=51&Itemid=54&lang=en

    First expert in the list:

    "Dr. Gokh Vitaly, the member of the Russian Academy of Sciences, the author of the geoholography method"

    Second expert in the list:

    Dr., prof. Kovalev Nikolay, the Sevastopol National University of Nuclear Energy and Industry (Ukraine), expert in the field of geoholography method use.

    Is geoholography the same as "Deep Vision" or is it used to refer something else as well? Here they are linked so that "Deep Vision" is the brand name:

    http://ukrainemade.com/technologies/332/