• MH370 speculation has become excessive recently. Metabunk is not a forum for creating theories by speculation. It's a forum for examining claims, and seeing if they hold up. Please respect this and keep threads on-topic. There are many other forums where speculation is welcome.

Debunked: Exploration company "Georesonance" believes it may have found MH370

I wonder how many of GeoResonance's "23 researchers, including 5 professors and 12 PhDs" or executives are following this thread. It would be fascinating to have their input into these discussions. (I'm not going to hold my breath waiting for this to happen.)
I've been following the subject since the first press release and this site is the core for discussion. I would expect those associated with GR follow the thread since this site is heavily linked to and easily found when googling. So I'm pretty sure GeoResonance is aware of the discussion and remaining muted.
 
This is one of many obvious logic flaws in the GR claims. If you had a secret tool that can identify "Any commodity. Any tenement. Anywhere." (www.georesonance.com), why would you share it? Just become the richest person in the World. Although I did know a Soviet block scientist that told me if you try and use psychic powers for personal gain you immediately lose your powers - I guess there is a special board of former Soviet psychics that monitors and enforces that ;)

To some extent that is of course marketing as usual. Just think of all the wonderful things that can happen to you if you drink some specific brand of soda or energy drink...

But yes, that is obviously a flaw in logic and if the claim about locating that "Armenia" ship was an error in translation and they didn't mean to claim they found it, then their marketing is already pretty much proven wrong as they definitely acknowledge they tried to find it but couldn't. And that ship is a lot bigger piece of metal and the depth of that ship is assumed to be only half of their claimed plane finding, so it should have been a much easier task. Although silt of course can always be a problem...
 
When I wrote that it looks like they take him seriously, it means that I found they reprinted some of his works. It means he is not totally excluded from the scientific community as I would expect, taken all his deluded theories. Whether they believe in the Poisk technology or just pretend it, is an entire different question. That nobody with a small bit of intelligence could believe that such technology could work, tells me rather that they back it only because of profit, or because of diversion. If it worked, they'd be all rolling in gold, platinum, rare-earth elements, diamonds, etc. since a long time. Until now, I did not see a single indicator that would point to the possibility that the images presented by GR could be "real", coming from their nuclear-Kirlian process as you still seem to believe.

To me it seems you still need to make a lot more assumptions (which Occam's razor does not like). I'm having a hard time imagining why they would give such visibility to the theories of one wacky guy if they don't believe it. And at the same time risk their own reputation by referring to it and in a way hence indicating they are believers themselves. As for profits as an explanation, this clearly predates what is happening with MH370 now, so that would mean all those people from different institutions who are giving him credit would have to be involved in this resonance business or something similar to the extent that they are receiving some part of the profits as well.

To me this situations is very much analogous to that global consciousness stuff. It really shouldn't take a scientist to see that it's not really based on anything and there's not much theory to back it up. Still that has been going on in the US, in a reputable university, since 1998. Actually that was only one program of the PEAR lab, which was established at Princeton back in 1979, primarily for studying the marvelous science of telekinesis and remote viewing. They apparently cut ties with Princeton in 2007. Here's a news story about that: http://www.nytimes.com/2007/02/10/science/10princeton.html

The lab was apparently founded by an emeritus professor and former dean, who still seems to believe that stuff based on the comments in that article. It has been called an embarrassment for science and for Princeton for years. And that article says that several expert panels have examined their methods but couldn't find sufficient reasons to stop it. And so it continued there for about three decades.

So what would be so odd in finding somewhat similar groups within Sevastopol and elsewhere whose work might not be that widely accepted among their peers, or make that much sense, yet be vague enough or hard to prove wrong so that they can continue what they do. And quite possibly honestly believe in what they do, like those Princeton guys after all those years.
 
In other words, you still do believe that the images presented by GR were real. Because if they were not real, they were faked, and the one who faked them certainly does not believe the Poisk facility works. There is no other possibility - either the images are real, or faked.
 
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In other words, you still do believe that the images presented by GR were real. Because if they were not real, they were faked, and the one who faked them certainly does not believe the Poisk facility works. There is not other possibility - either the images are real, or faked.

Based on what I have read, my hunch is that the images, or at least some original images/source data, do originate from Sevastopol and they likely have generated them with some fancy methods they may actually believe in.

There is one possible problem with that theory though. GeoResonance said they presented the initial report on March 31 and full report on April 15. Sevastopol university, or at least the reactor, was apparently seized by Russia sometime near April 8. So it's unclear if there would be anybody there to work on any full reports at that stage. But of course it's possibly that the fancy "science stuff" was already done with the initial report and the rest was just something GeoResonance put together. That something might include creating the images that were published, although they still might be based on something they got from Sevastopol.

For example one issue many have pointed out is that in the published pictures the so called plane was aligned exactly towards north. I saw somewhere a screenshot of their presentation were they seemed to show pictures where it wasn't aligned like that. So even if they had some "real" images from the source, they may have created something of their own for "illustrative purposes", and that can either match to the source data closely, or not. Whether it makes any difference in this case is of course another matter...
 
To some extent that is of course marketing as usual. Just think of all the wonderful things that can happen to you if you drink some specific brand of soda or energy drink...

But yes, that is obviously a flaw in logic and if the claim about locating that "Armenia" ship was an error in translation and they didn't mean to claim they found it, then their marketing is already pretty much proven wrong as they definitely acknowledge they tried to find it but couldn't. And that ship is a lot bigger piece of metal and the depth of that ship is assumed to be only half of their claimed plane finding, so it should have been a much easier task. Although silt of course can always be a problem...

But their technology of identifying elemental composition at any distance greater than a few cm's (which requires XRF or LIBS) is debunked. It can not be done underwater or under solid ground with ANY technology, not multispectral imaging, not hyperspectral imaging, not NMR, not telekenesis, not on a train, not on a plane. All the talk of silt is obfuscation. What they are claiming can't be done.

The Georesonance parrot is dead: "'E's passed on! This parrot is no more! He has ceased to be! 'E's expired and gone to meet 'is maker! 'E's a stiff! Bereft of life, 'e rests in peace! If you hadn't nailed 'im to the perch 'e'd be pushing up the daisies! 'Is metabolic processes are now 'istory! 'E's off the twig! 'E's kicked the bucket, 'e's shuffled off 'is mortal coil, run down the curtain and joined the bleedin' choir invisible!! THIS IS AN EX-PARROT!!", Python (Monty)
 
But their technology of identifying elemental composition at any distance greater than a few cm's (which requires XRF or LIBS) is debunked. It can not be done underwater or under solid ground with ANY technology, not multispectral imaging, not hyperspectral imaging, not NMR, not telekenesis, not on a train, not on a plane. All the talk of silt is obfuscation. What they are claiming can't be done.

The Georesonance parrot is dead: "'E's passed on! This parrot is no more! He has ceased to be! 'E's expired and gone to meet 'is maker! 'E's a stiff! Bereft of life, 'e rests in peace! If you hadn't nailed 'im to the perch 'e'd be pushing up the daisies! 'Is metabolic processes are now 'istory! 'E's off the twig! 'E's kicked the bucket, 'e's shuffled off 'is mortal coil, run down the curtain and joined the bleedin' choir invisible!! THIS IS AN EX-PARROT!!", Python (Monty)

Yet the problem is that nobody has said that publicly through the media (or at least I haven't seen such articles). The search team only said that the location is wrong, not that the tech can't work. It left the impression that they can be taken seriously otherwise, it was just the location. There was some comment by some NASA scientist somewhere that he doesn't know any such technology that could do that, or something along those lines. So that also basically left the door still open as maybe he just doesn't understand it.

This thing will go on until somebody manages to say it like you do so that it is made public and so that GeoResonance and their friends are sort of forced to defend themselves and possibly reveal more details that can be further debunked. And if they can't defend themselves, then all this can actually end.
 
...Actually that was only one program of the PEAR lab, which was established at Princeton back in 1979, primarily for studying the marvelous science of telekinesis and remote viewing... The lab was apparently founded by an emeritus professor and former dean, who still seems to believe that stuff based on the comments in that article. It has been called an embarrassment for science and for Princeton for years. And that article says that several expert panels have examined their methods but couldn't find sufficient reasons to stop it. And so it continued there for about three decades... So what would be so odd in finding somewhat similar groups within Sevastopol and elsewhere whose work might not be that widely accepted among their peers, or make that much sense, yet be vague enough or hard to prove wrong so that they can continue what they do. And quite possibly honestly believe in what they do, like those Princeton guys after all those years.

Exactly. I mean, this thread we have developed here is nothing more than a "lab" analyzing and discussing miraculous forms of remote imaging and the scam artists that promote them. Doubtless we are as a group more open minded and rational that any group of tenured professors, and this lab will probably continue on for decades as well. There are a few crackpot "universities" out there, some dealing with exotic religions or beliefs, on the other hand there are countless ordinary universities that provide safe haven for crackpots.
 
Based on what I have read, my hunch is that the images, or at least some original images/source data, do originate from Sevastopol and they likely have generated them with some fancy methods they may actually believe in
Do you realize that by telling they were generated by their equipment, you admit their wonder machine works and creates images of planes underwater? Sounds odd to me.
 
Do you realize that by telling they were generated by their equipment, you admit their wonder machine works and creates images of planes underwater? Sounds odd to me.

Nope, that definitely doesn't mean their machine works or that the image matches a real plane somewhere. Did they find a plane that matched the image? If not, it's just an image that they interpret to be a plane. Still it may have been produced by their fancy equipment but so what, so far there's no indication it matches anything real.

Also as I said, it may be that they didn't actually produce the images that GeoResonance showed but something similar which GeoResonance "stylized" for publishing.

Still continuing with the analogy to that global consciousness nonsense, their fancy methods also generate graphs that they interpret to signify something. Yet there's no indication it represents any real world phenomena, other than a series of random numbers. And by doing some selective bias they can make some of those look like there might be something to it.
 
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Have you seen this:

http://www.abc.net.au/mediawatch/transcripts/s3998350.htm

Contributors to the online sceptics site, Metabunk.org, were far ruder than that, with page upon page of analysis and derisory comments about the Adelaide searchers’ boasts.
Content from External Source
So we are rude... There's also other interesting comments there, check it out.

The publishing process is full of rude people - peer reviewers are collegiate, journal editors are ruthless. Science only exists because of very rude people ruthlessly reviewing others works.
 
The publishing process is full of rude people - peer reviewers are collegiate, journal editors are ruthless. Science only exists because of very rude people ruthlessly reviewing others works.
Hehe, in that case it looks like Russians and Ukrainians are not sufficiently rude :)
 
One really needs to be a nuclear physicist with an understanding of quantum physics to grasp the realities of what we are capable of.
— David Pope, Director, GeoResonance, 5th May, 2014

The Australian Transport Safety Bureau said GeoResonance’s claims were being examined by the international search team, but today it told Seven News it stands by its belief the company’s report is junk science.
—Channel Seven News, 2nd May, 2014

I think I will stand with the ATSB. I assume that they DO have access to a "nuclear physicist with an understanding of quantum physics". In any event the initial GR claims don't have anything to do with quantum mechanics - they are making it up as they go along. There is also the minor fact that the perfectly identified and located airplane in the Bay of Bengal ain't there.
 
Yet the problem is that nobody has said that publicly through the media (or at least I haven't seen such articles). The search team only said that the location is wrong, not that the tech can't work. It left the impression that they can be taken seriously otherwise, it was just the location. There was some comment by some NASA scientist somewhere that he doesn't know any such technology that could do that, or something along those lines. So that also basically left the door still open as maybe he just doesn't understand it.

This thing will go on until somebody manages to say it like you do so that it is made public and so that GeoResonance and their friends are sort of forced to defend themselves and possibly reveal more details that can be further debunked. And if they can't defend themselves, then all this can actually end.

The ATSB has called it junk science. Academics will always waffle even if they know it is junk science as getting into a lawsuit annoys the Dean.
 
Just had to add this..

"One really needs to be a nuclear physicist with an understanding of quantum physics to grasp the realities of what we are capable of." — David Pope, Director, GeoResonance, 5th May, 2014.... No, it takes String Theory to imagine parallel universes wherein elements can migrate from the bottom of the sea into multispectral imaging satellites, onto film, through nuclear reactors, only to be stimulated into existence back onto film in a high frequency electric field.
 
David Pope said:
One really needs to be a nuclear physicist with an understanding of quantum physics to grasp the realities of what we are capable of."

So is David Pope a nuclear physicist or is he admitting he himself has no understanding of the capabilities he's pitching?
 
So is David Pope a nuclear physicist or is he admitting he himself has no understanding of the capabilities he's pitching?

At the end of the day it comes down to a company claiming it can detect elements through 400m+ of water using multispectral images. This is not possible regardless of nuclear physics or quantum mechanics, just not possible without utilizing some high energy method that would rip a hole in the ocean. Georesonance is pulling out all the tricks that con men and mentalists use: misdirection, obfuscation, and "possession" of secret information. Our position is reduced to Russell's Teapot - they claim there is a teapot orbiting the sun, we have to prove there is not. When an airplane is not found where they identified it, it is covered in silt: the teapot's orbit changed.
 
The ATSB has called it junk science. Academics will always waffle even if they know it is junk science as getting into a lawsuit annoys the Dean.

Dude, did you see Mick, scombrid and InterpreDemon on the television! Or at least in that video player embedded in that web page. Those guys are celebs now. I'm thinking of asking their virtual autographs as a reply to my post. Just think how much bigger celeb you could have been, have you chosen to go to CNN and others... ;)

On a more serious note, so it seems ATSB has called it junk, haven't seen that. That comment by David Gallo for example didn't help much, as he used terms like groundbreaking and game changer. Even though he likely wanted to state his disbelief, those kinds of statements are easy to misinterpret.

I believe the problem with scientists isn't just about lawsuits, or even just being humble and polite. I think the biggest reason is trying to avoid making statements one can't prove, and it's pretty hard to prove the non-existence of something. It's pretty hard already to be certain that you happen to know every single thing that might make something possible, especially if you don't know what has been claimed exactly. They prefer to err to the side of caution.

I have followed the same kind of principles here to some extent, in part because of previous experiences in debating with people who try to catch any claim you make that could reverse the burden of proof onto my side, and I have been accused of a number of things already because of that cautiousness. It's one of those double-edged swords, not stating what you can't defend, but not being as direct as you maybe should.
 
Did they not claim to routinely use their process to find water and minerals hundreds or thousands of feet under soil? If so, a millimeter of silt should pose no problem and they should still be seeing the aircraft at those coordinates if they again send their satellite over it. I would also venture to say that a layer of silt would pose little problem for echo-sounding even if the return echoes were not of higher amplitude than the rest of the bottom (even though they would be) one will still see a rather significant bump on the ocean floor. At least we can thank the GeoScammers for all this fun and frivolity.
 
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Bume. No desire on my part to be a "celeb". I just like doing my remote sensing exploration science. The only reason I got into this gig is because companies like Georesonance troll around the fringes of the exploration world and discredit my scientific field by equating remote sensing to pseudoscience (and try to make honest scientists like me look like we "missed" some advanced capabilities of the data). I have used and know the capabilities and limitations of every type of imagery between UV and thermal IR, so when someone misrepresents the data I tend to get a bit PO'ed. Georesonance is doing the big lie, but there are a lot of small liars out there too.
 
Did they not claim to routinely use their process to find water and minerals hundreds or thousands of feet under soil? If so, a millimeter of silt should pose no problem and they should still be seeing the aircraft at those coordinates if they again send their satellite over it I would also venture to say that a layer of silt would pose little problem for echo-sounding sine even if the return echoes were not of higher amplitude than the rest of the bottom (even though they would be) one will still see a rather significant bump on the ocean floor. At least we can thank the GeoScammers for all this fun and frivolity.

Notice how this David Pope person is ramping up the rhetoric and starting to sound desperate? Only nuclear physicists can understand what they are doing (might be one or two as members here). You can't understand what they are doing from the website. Plane is covered in silt. The Bangladesh navy has to use SONAR technology that can see through silt. All arguments that try to twist responsibility to other entities. But still no airplane in the 500m^2 precisely identified target area. I really think these guys thought they would be a sidebar story that might result in some queries for their junk science (as it is officially designated by the ATSB) technique from mining and petroleum companies, but are caught in an unexpected firestorm of scrutiny.
 
I hope the list of companies that I compiled can help people who will in future try to check their reputation. I asked the admin to link it from the abstract on the home page, but am unsure whether he'll be willing to do it. Hopefully the list will scare off some potential victims, but I am probably far too optimistic. A sucker is born every second, and I bet there are still many of them around who are sure GeoResonance really knows something. It is also clear that the companies will just change names and continue under another identity.

EDIT: I just got a PM that a link to the list of companies was already added to the top summary post yesterday, so it is now easier to find for newcomers. Thanks!
 
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Looking into the claim of siltation, I found this paper on sediment transport in the Ganges-Brahmaputra system, which mentions a 1985 study by Emmel and Curray that "found no evidence of recent sediment accumulation on the Bengal deep sea fan". Apparently half the sediment carried by those rivers never leaves the river mouth, and most of what does gets swept off into a trench known as the "Swatch of No Ground" and carried out to deeper waters.

This paper describes a study of a sediment core taken from the Bay of Bengal, showing 43cm of accumulation attributable to the Holocene period, which covers the last 12,000 years or so. Needless to say, this does not support an accumulation rate that would cause a problematic level of sedimentation within the last two months.
 
I hope the list of companies that I compiled can help people who will in future try to check their reputation. I asked the admin to link it from the abstract on the home page, but am unsure whether he'll be willing to do it. Hopefully the list will scare off some potential victims, but I am probably far too optimistic. A sucker is born every second, and I bet there are still many of them around who are sure GeoResonance really knows something. It is also clear that the companies will just change names and continue under another identity.

I don't know of any mineral exploration companies that have bought into this junk science. Perhaps some small time oil and gas types. I have had scientists who should know better ask me about it, as well as microleptons. The most likely "marks" will be government entities, and most likely in developing countries. The only other clients are likely to be scam exploration companies that need a "showing" to dupe investors.
 
Looking into the claim of siltation, I found this paper on sediment transport in the Ganges-Brahmaputra system, which mentions a 1985 study by Emmel and Curray that "found no evidence of recent sediment accumulation on the Bengal deep sea fan". Apparently half the sediment carried by those rivers never leaves the river mouth, and most of what does gets swept off into a trench known as the "Swatch of No Ground" and carried out to deeper waters.

This paper describes a study of a sediment core taken from the Bay of Bengal, showing 43cm of accumulation attributable to the Holocene period, which covers the last 12,000 years or so. Needless to say, this does not support an accumulation rate that would cause a problematic level of sedimentation within the last two months.

Great job. Yet another GR lie/speculation exposed. I hope David Pope follows this site so he can figure out that you can't keep making things up and not expect to get fact checked.
 
I am sure they have plenty of clients, otherwise it would not be so widespread - I counted 26 companies selling Gokh's method (not counting microleptons and other scams), and that's certainly just the tip of the iceberg. And the list of people involved, that I recorded, is several times longer.
 
I am sure they have plenty of clients, otherwise it would not be so widespread - I counted 26 companies selling Gokh's method (not counting microleptons and other scams), and that's certainly just the tip of the iceberg. And the list of people involved, that I recorded, is several times longer.

But are they all different and independent companies or just different shells? Seems like a lot of the project lists are similar, and largely eastern block clients. Even GR's project in Utah appears to be associated with the company they share offices with.
 
But are they all different and independent companies or just different shells? Seems like a lot of the project lists are similar, and largely eastern block clients. Even GR's project in Utah appears to be associated with the company they share offices with.
There are plenty of branches in all possible countries. One is common for most of them - one or more Ukrainians or Russians on the Board, and then usually some local personnel too. Sometimes the company offers also some regular conventional products or services (like for example the Australian Tellus of Mr. Pope). When there are more branches in the same country, they may be well just a dual identity. Then they have representants in several Asian and African lands, who have local names and I am unsure whether they know much about the background, but would be really surprised if they did not know they sold snake oil. Some of the brands listed were already abandoned in the meantime, and some indeed point back to the same company, but still they are numerous, and the list is certainly not at all complete.

Additionally, I found evidence that it is indeed being backed by the SNUEI (Sevastopol National University of Nuclear Energy and Industry), its dean (at least the ex-dean), and their dubious documents were published by other national scientific institutions, including the Ukrainian Academy of Science, the National Technical Library, National University in Kiev, and more. At SNUEI, there is a facility called "Poïsk" (Search in English), where they allegedly perform this holography-nuclear-Kirlian process on the optical satellite images, converting them so magically into the mineral maps. Dr. Gokh is only one of the (pseudo)scientists behind the work - the list is much longer. It is unclear though whether all the worldwide companies are controlled from SNUEI. In any case I did not find any statement from the university that would distance themselves from the geo-exploartion companies.
 
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But are they all different and independent companies or just different shells? Seems like a lot of the project lists are similar, and largely eastern block clients. Even GR's project in Utah appears to be associated with the company they share offices with.

Those companies are definitely using shared references and in many cases each others as clients. Take for example that test prospecting in Utah 2009. It's listed as a SNUNEI project (http://agrivice.com.au/media/PM-2.pdf) as being by request of the Carpathia company. That same thing is listed on GeoResonance site (USA 2009) as their project and on TransComplex site (http://transcomplex.uk.com/en/projects) as their "own project", and on the Carpathia site obviously as well. Might be by others as well.
 
I don't know of any mineral exploration companies that have bought into this junk science. Perhaps some small time oil and gas types. I have had scientists who should know better ask me about it, as well as microleptons. The most likely "marks" will be government entities, and most likely in developing countries. The only other clients are likely to be scam exploration companies that need a "showing" to dupe investors.

That description seems to fit quite nicely to those project references listed by GeoResonance and others.
 
It is unclear though whether all the worldwide companies are controlled from SNUEI. In any case I did not find any statement from the university that would distance themselves from the geo-exploartion companies.

I don't think SNUNEI is in control but rather those companies are clients/resellers/marketers for it. At least that Utah test prospecting was clearly listed so that SNUNEI performed it by the request of Carpathia. If there is someone in central control my guess would be it's one of those Ukrainian companies or the core people behind them (who of course can be closely linked to the university as well). They could act as a sort of gateway to the SNUNEI services. But this is just guessing.
 
For those wondering how much some of these companies actually know about the technology they are selling, look at the Darby Holdings site:

http://www.darbyholdings.com/tech_ss.html

They are for example talking about "Magnet Nuclear Resonance Scanning" and "sophisticated chemical and Nuclear Magnet Resonance treatment in nuclear reactor". It's quite telling if a company doesn't even get the buzzwords right, or even the order of the words.

For some reason I get the mental image of Homer Simpson selling this, nucular magnets and stuff.
 
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They are for example talking about "Magnet Nuclear Resonance Scanning" and "sophisticated chemical and Nuclear Magnet Resonance treatment in nuclear reactor". It's quite telling if a company doesn't even get the buzzwords right, or even the order of the words.

That's injustice from you. The photo below, from their nuclear reactor facility, clearly shows they are right:

distilling-vodka-360x240.jpg
 
It's quite telling if a company doesn't even get the buzzwords right, or even the order of the words.

Dyslexia of bit a have they perhaps? Anyway, often a words is still intelligible even if two sentence are transposed, or even if one or are altogether.

Edit - Which leads to the topic of how the most sophisticated frauds have advanced the science of press releases by using what Hofstadter, in his treatise on self referential sentences might have called dynamic sentences... sentences that can take on new meaning on the fly, for example, "This sentence used to have five words, but now it has twelve", or one that can have two entirely different meanings like my earlier posted example, "I cannot tell you how much I enjoyed your company".
 
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Contributors to the online sceptics site, Metabunk.org, were far ruder than that, with page upon page of analysis and derisory comments about the Adelaide searchers’ boasts.
Content from External Source
@Mick West 's not going to like that. Either the politeness policy has failed to be enforced properly or they're exaggerating.
 
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