1. Joeybegood

    Joeybegood New Member

    And that's a major part of the problem; being forced to take the word, to any extent, of people who have lied to the world in the past. I beg to differ about Western vested interests however. The West clearly wants Russian influence out of Ukraine, and if this situation helps to achieve that, then I think it's possible, likely even, that they would be economic with the truth.
     
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  2. Joeybegood

    Joeybegood New Member

    Here are more unsubstantiated claims, although they point to a good solution to the problem; release satellite data or radar records (if they exist as claimed). And as Sgt. Tinfoil already said, the wreckage of the plane would eventually be able to provide strong evidence of what happened, although it would take a while.

     
  3. Sgt.Tinfoil

    Sgt.Tinfoil Member

    Here you go
     
  4. TEEJ

    TEEJ Senior Member

    Thanks Mick.

    The video is highlighted in the following Russian military brief on MH17. No additional evidence is given other than repeating the claim that was on social media of the car dealership in Ukrainian controlled territory.

    See from 25:00

     
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  5. http://stat.multimedia.mil.ru/multimedia/photo/gallery.htm?id=17402@cmsPhotoGallery

    official site of russian army

    on the last picture they claim it's from Krasnoarmeysk which is under ukrainian control from 11th May, I don't think they would put it on official site without checking it

    the pictures before are also interesting and tend to put the blame on ukrainian army however if I got that right from my bad russian they don't have hard evidence only allegations
     
  6. Soulfly

    Soulfly Banned Banned

    How much of the missile should be left after it blows up? Should we expect to see large pieces of it?
     
  7. Jason

    Jason Senior Member

    We should be able to find the missle tube and motor parts. Each of these parts will have a serial# on it as well, and possibly place of origin
     
  8. Soulfly

    Soulfly Banned Banned

    Perhaps the bigger problem is you want or expect that they are lying to you. I'm sure you have lied in the past, so no one here should take anything you say seriously.
     
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  9. Soulfly

    Soulfly Banned Banned

    But at the crash site?
     
  10. Jason

    Jason Senior Member

    Should be in the vacinity of where the plane came down. It could be anywhere in the 9 miles of debri from the accident.
     
  11. WeedWhacker

    WeedWhacker Senior Member

    None of those above have to do with missile launchers in Ukraine. There are actual photos, and eyewitnesses...non-government witnesses.

    And...."Libya"??? :rolleyes:
     
  12. jonnyH

    jonnyH Active Member

    If the missile has a different speed and trajectory to the plane and detonates in proximity to the plane without actually hitting it, surely it could end up some distance from the plane's debris field.
     
  13. JeffreyNotGeoffrey

    JeffreyNotGeoffrey Active Member

    Nor should you throw the baby out with the bath water with government info. Am I to take the weather channel severe weather alerts with a grain of salt and double check because the government has lied before?
     
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  14. Sgt.Tinfoil

    Sgt.Tinfoil Member

    Just found this in the other forum. The picture gives a good argument that BUK was in Torez
    [​IMG]
    The reference picture is from somebodys joyride in Torez city from youtube. You can see the place at 1:01
     
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  15. Jason

    Jason Senior Member

    The trajectory could be a factor, whether its approach was from behind or head on. That could possibly factor into its location, and it depends on how long the plane stayed airborne after it was struck. So I stand corrected, sorry soulfly. I retract my answer.
     
  16. Jason

    Jason Senior Member

    That doesn't look like the same location. First of all in the video the shop with the yellow banner is on the right side of the car as its driving up the street, and that puts the apartment building with the advertisement on the left side. If you're driving up the road with the shop on your right, then that apartment bldg should be behind you, not in front of you.

    Also if you go to .59 or 1.00 minute, you will notice there isn't a yellow banner that continues after the shop like in the still video. There are white phone booths and a yellow bldg next to the corner shop but in the still photo the attached bldg looks blueish.
     
  17. Mick West

    Mick West Administrator Staff Member

    I think you need to look again. It all seems to match exactly to me. It's just viewed from the other side.
     
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  18. Jason

    Jason Senior Member

    Oh, now I see it, coming up the other street from the opposite direction. I didn't see a street over there with the trees blocking it.
     
    Last edited: Jul 21, 2014
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  19. Mick West

    Mick West Administrator Staff Member

    In case any more was needed there, check out the trees and the double headed light-pole.
    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    Flip and overlay:
    [​IMG]
    It's 100% the same place. Torez.
     
  20. Mick West

    Mick West Administrator Staff Member

    Which other forum was that?
     
  21. jonnyH

    jonnyH Active Member

    Last edited by a moderator: Jul 21, 2014
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  22. Jason

    Jason Senior Member

    So what does this mean then or imply?
     
  23. Sgt.Tinfoil

    Sgt.Tinfoil Member

    militaryphotos.net There are two massive threads about Ukraine other one gets like one post per minute from different sources which I have found really handy to keep up with the war almost realtime. There are lots of Russian speaking people too so they kinda translates what is going in their media/Ukrainian media and I get some idea where, when and some backround about youtube videos which are in foreign language etc. etc. etc.
     
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  24. Pete Tar

    Pete Tar Moderator Staff Member

    So where's Torez, where is it claimed to be taken?
     
  25. Mick West

    Mick West Administrator Staff Member

    Six miles south of the crash zone.
    [​IMG]
     
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  26. Jason

    Jason Senior Member

    Is this location controlled by the Separatist, Ukranians because it seems Donestk Oblast is "supposed" to be controlled by the proRussian groups. Also the photo of Sniznhe has the buk on a flatbed truck and its not on one in Torez. Is it likely we are looking at separate buk systems here.
     
  27. Mick West

    Mick West Administrator Staff Member

    Yes, that's separatist territory. Right in the DPR
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Donetsk_People's_Republic

    The Torez photo is of a Buk on a flatbed truck.
    [​IMG]
     
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  28. Pete Tar

    Pete Tar Moderator Staff Member

    I'm a little confused because I though Sgt. Tinfoil was using that as evidence the rebels didn't have possession of it. What was the original claim of it's location, or was that never made?
     
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  29. Mick West

    Mick West Administrator Staff Member

    There seem to be a few different things here. But a key point is that there was one in Torez, close enough to shoot down the plane. Then there are various accounts of Buks moving towards Russia, or in Russia.
     
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  30. Sgt.Tinfoil

    Sgt.Tinfoil Member

    Sgt.Tinfoil likes facts and evidence. Sgt.Tinfoil did not know where the picture was taken or when thus he was not sure was it even separatists, Russian, Ukranian or even Romanian BUK. And for the record Sgt.Tinfoil made a claim that Donetsk Republic denied having a BUK but the Lugansk Republic did made a claim to have posession of that weaponry.

    From the original article I believe it is this:
     
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  31. TEEJ

    TEEJ Senior Member

    I actually don't think that they have checked it. I think that the Russian military have simply taken the claim on social media as fact. The bill board apparently shows advertising for a car dealership with showrooms across Ukraine. Surely if it is in Krasnoarmeysk then it should be fairly easy for that person in social media making the claim to visit the exact spot and provide photographic proof?

    Google translation of Arsen Avakovs' Facebook page where the claim was made. Later in the comments he corrects the location as Lugansk.

    Arsen Avakov is Minster of Internal Affairs

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arsen_Avakov_(politician)

    upload_2014-7-22_10-2-45.



    upload_2014-7-22_9-58-3.


    https://www.facebook.com/arsen.avakov.1/posts/670837696339673

    Claims in some comments that overhead trolley lines can be seen in the video. Claimed that Krasnoarmeysk does not have trolley buses.

    upload_2014-7-22_10-6-25.

    In the video you can see cables that are claimed to be the trolley lines.

    upload_2014-7-22_10-18-20.


     
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  32. TEEJ

    TEEJ Senior Member

    Thanks for posting the larger images of the Buk in Torez. You can clearly see it loaded on the back of the trailer. Previous to that I had thought it was sitting on its own.

    Is that the same stencil/graphics strip on the truck of the trailer? I've marked them with arrows.

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]
     

    Attached Files:

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  33. Jason

    Jason Senior Member

    Boolmberg Business week discusses the system used to take down MH 17, and how the Buk system typically comprises of 3 vehicles. The SA-11 Glady uses a target-acquisition radar used to identify aerial objectives, a command post housing control systems and data displays, and a launcher armed with four radar-guided missiles. But you don't need all 3 vehicles to operate the buk launcher and by operating it alone without the other assets is a sure way to make a mistake in target acquisition. The Buk Launcher has a built in radar which is used to acquire and track targets, but doesn't have the ability to distinguish whether the target is a "friend or foe". http://www.businessweek.com/news/20...-flight-mh17-will-have-left-widespread-traces

     
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  34. Mick West

    Mick West Administrator Staff Member

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  35. Master Yoda

    Master Yoda New Member

    This appears to be in Luhansk, separatist territory.
     
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  36. Mick West

    Mick West Administrator Staff Member

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  37. Hevach

    Hevach Senior Member

    So those "trolley wires" aren't trolley wires after all (in case the absence of trolley tracks in the original pictures wasn't enough). In the bottom left image, the thing hanging over the road suspended by three wires (supposedly a trolley wire) appears to be visible in the overhead shot as a white object near the top-left corner of the portall.tv billboard.

    I can't tell if it's a street light or just a 3-way junction between the poles beside the road, but it's obvious from the big picture it's just part of the road lighting system.
     
  38. Pete Tar

    Pete Tar Moderator Staff Member

    That's a car.
    (top left or top right?)
     
  39. Mick West

    Mick West Administrator Staff Member

    Not too important, but they do actually appear to be trolley bus lines. This is down the road a bit:
    http://www.panoramio.com/photo/53027972
    [​IMG]
     
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  40. Hama Neggs

    Hama Neggs Senior Member

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