The pre-collapse inward bowing of WTC2

How could the floors pull in the east face and not the North face over at the corner? Only if the sagging floor center... 30 feet from the corner sheared the connections to the north facade. NB that the sag would have the ends sagging least.. maybe not at all and the force of the catenary would be lateral... your inward pull. Interesting that the cross trusses pull in a north south direction.. or why wouldn't they? Same number and placement of the connections on the north face in the first 60 feet of the facade. does this make sense?
 
I can give and have given some sketches I made for MYSELF I am not intending publish, preach, instruct or change anyone's mind. I share my thinking... take it or leave it. YES I speculate. I don't collect data and I am not a researcher.
I use these forums to inform my own thinking including what I learned from the official sources to some extent.
I would call what NIST did *engineering*. They tried to explain collapses with mostly ASSUMED energy inputs... type, location, duration and intensity. With respect to the twins the original explanation was dropping pancakes.... that was rubbish. Then they came up with a few sagging trusses pulling in a portion of the facade leading to global collapse... that too, in my opinion is rubbish.

See if you can demonstrate with engineering how to pull a section which is 3"x 14" x 36' long to a bow of 47" from neutral axis with a couple of 1/4" 3x3 angles and 5/8" Ø bolts... Do the math!
 
How could the floors pull in the east face and not the North face over at the corner?

The strongest area of truss-induced distortion would be the "Long One-Way Area" on the east and west faces of WTC2. The north and south faces only had short one-way areas. The two way areas would bow less towards the corners, and would be influenced by the bowing of adjacent columns.

https://www.metabunk.org/files/NIST NCStar 1-2 101012_unlocked.pdf
NCStar 1-2 Page 30, pdf page 144


 
Sure the details are complicated, but I don't think the basic concept related to buckling/bowing is. 1D obviously cannot show this, but you could reduce it to 2D to roughly illustrate a plausible sequence of events involving the trusses, and the interior and exterior columns.
Sure. That is a "building block" example of one aspect of the complex mess. Fits the "building blocks" process I started with 4 examples. The plausible truss pull in column buckle mechanism is one of a number of mechanisms. Actually I think we have already covered that one. Put simply "joist sag starts to pull in the perimeter column and does so till it reaches the critical point where self buckling under axial load takes over and completes the buckling".

That should explain it for one joist and one column.

The complicated bit starts when we try to incorporate that selected single pair among the other ones. THEN still have to fit in the core and other "building block" mechanisms. But that much is what I set out to do - caution against a risk of misunderstanding of that joist to column interaction. That mission achieved IMO. The broader picture for another day and another thread.
 
The two way areas don't make sense to me... What does 2 way mean... the slab has support on two sides by the facade..???? The framing goes in one direction... I think this diagram is either not accurate or confusing or both. This was my fantasy.. attached.
 

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I agree JO. All the evidence points to the core failure leading to inward bowing, and not the other way round. The debate should really be about the mechanism that caused that core failure.
There is very strong evidence that core failure preceded perimeter. I'm semi persuaded. BUT why does it matter if it is a detail that NIST got wrong. The reason I am only "semi-persuaded" is that I have no need - I can see no legitimate need to be sure either way.

In most forums the "core led" aspect is pressed by those who need to claim CD. That AFAIK is the only argument which depends on core led. Reality is that when "Top Block" started to drop all columns had failed. And it didn’t matter which went first for any ongoing professional engineering reason I can think of. The fact that the initiation process was a cascade failure is not news to the engineering profession and is probably all they need to know. They may seek to improve resistance to cascade in future buildings. I don't see WTC details which are not available being of any assistance. Nor the one macro detail of "core led" not "perimeter led". So what? Unless you are claiming CD and there are many more hurdles for the CD claimants to cross so that one matters not.

I don't overlook professional interst and curiosity over details - that is a legitimate motive for some. But again - so what?
 
So what is true... I am simply curious and I don't see the need for a core led initiation to be CD., The CD guys need it because everyone can see the facade did not explode etc... so for them it HAS to be hidden and inside the core.
 
The two way areas don't make sense to me... What does 2 way mean... the slab has support on two sides by the facade..???? The framing goes in one direction... I think this diagram is either not accurate or confusing or both. This was my fantasy.. attached.

NIST explains two-way.
https://www.metabunk.org/files/NCSTAR 1-6BFire Resistance Tests of Floor Truss Systems_unlocked.pdf
NCSTAR 1-6B, Page 7, pdf page 42

The floor system design for the World Trade Center (WTC) towers consisted of a lightweight concrete floor slab supported by steel trusses bridging between the building’s core columns and exterior wall columns7. The main composite trusses, which were used in pairs, were spaced at 6 ft 8 in. on center (o.c.) and had a nominal clear span of either 60 ft or 35 ft. The steel trusses were fabricated using double angles for the top and bottom chords, and round bars for the webs. The web members protruded above the top chord in the form of a “knuckle” which was embedded in the concrete slab to develop composite action. Additionally, the floor system included bridging trusses (perpendicular to main trusses) spaced 13 ft 4 in. o.c. In the corners of the towers, the bridging trusses acted with the main trusses to provide two-way slab action, i.e., bending moments existed in both principal directions. Figure 3–1 is a cut-away of the composite floor system showing the main and bridging trusses, metal deck, and concrete slab.
Content from External Source


So the bridging trusses of the corner pieces are attached to seated connection on the exterior wall

4061836605_80dd6d7663_b_d.jpg
 
well duh... that is sort of obvious but the corners had axial support at the single perimeter corner columns and all along the 35'x 60' nominal facade. The diagram is not accurate of consistent with their own explanation... Hardly matters.... the last 35' of the longs spans were supported on girders framed into the facade and the belt girder at the corner columns...
 
Ozzie,

I think you need to put that big visualizing brain of yours to this notion... and it relates to the single column failure thread from JREF... If you magincally removed a ....
Thanks for the faith in me but not this time Sander. The real event is IMO far too complex for FULL explanation in this forum setting. We can discuss "building blocks" but IMO not the whole thing in full detail. You should have noticed my several attempts to avoid going there.

Without the full picture I cannot see where your overlay of speculations fits onto the real event.

(And this is probably the first time you (Beachy, Oystein, JDH, Redwood et al) have seen me run away from challenge. ;))

(Other members - the "Ozzie" is from my alternate user name ozeco41 and the AU reference obvious.)
 
...
(And this is probably the first time you (Beachy, Oystein, JDH, Redwood et al) have seen me run away from challenge. ;))
...
Highly dubious (eyeballing the "41") that you run from it :p.

(I am reading; and wondering: You seem to have been explaing that truss sag -> IB -> reduction of column capacity -> perimeter column overload -> buckling of perimeter columns = beginning of vertical progression phase. Sounds "truss-led" to me.
Then you say: Semi-convinced of "core-led" initiation.
Please explain: Where does core-first tie into the above sequence? I.o.w., how would core-first action lead to truss sag, which in turn leads to perimeter IB? Other thread, if necessary)
 
trevor,
once the collapse is underway (and has picked up sufficient momentum, which will have happened after a sustained drop of not very much - somewhere between several inches and several feet), the structure below will, by and by, experience dynamic loads that exceed wkat it was designed for to bear (mostly statically; and, to a lesser degree, dynamically) by an order of magnitude. Think of how you can stand on a tin can for indefinitely long stretches of time, even move upon it, but when you jump on it from a few inches up, you will crush it - and crush it all the way down to the floor.

Once the first layer of steel structure below the falling part fails, it starts falling along with the stuff on top and add to the mass as gravity keeps pulling.

Rinse and repeat, as the now acreted mass impacts a next layer of structure.

Whether or not this cascade will slow and eventually come to a halt depends basically on two variables:
- How much energy can the structure absorb per layer (or per height unit)
- How much kinetic energy does the falling mass mass pick up through the action of gravity as it falls down onto the next layer (or per height unit)
If the absorbed energy exceed the picked-up energy, there is a chance for collapse arrest.
If both are about equal, collapse will continue at about constant velocity
If picked-up energy exceeds absorbable energy, collaps will go all the way down and accelerate.

This scenario is quite independent from how damaged the structure is - doesn't require any fire effects. You see, in actual controlled demolitions, they don't pre-heat the entire building (they do weaken columns and other supports to facilitate and controll the collapse, but that is not a necessity for the method to work).

It is rather easy to come up with mathematical models that envelop the actual situation by presenting a "best case for survival" scenario and showing that even the best case predicts total collapse, once collapse is under way.

The effects of high temperatures (steel weakening and/or expanding; later, as fires move on, contraction of cooling steel; perhaps compromising of auxiliary structures like concrete floors that help stiffen the floor trusses) were important to initiate the collapse, to bring the static load-bearing capacity of the first level of structural elements below its actual load, to send it moving down.

That's collapse initiation.

After that, it's collapse progression.

(Some put a "transition" phase between the two; I guess that's supposed to be a phase where progression is mainly lateral through the failing level and up to the point where vertical progression across the entire floor area becomes dominant).

"Official" theory says that fires, possibly helped by stripped fire-proofing and plane crash damage, initiated the collapses, and that after that, progression is unavoidable without further ado.
"Conspiracy theorists" variously claim that either initiation wasn't possible/did not happen by fire alone, or that progression wasn't possible/did not happen without assistance by explosives/incendiaries/space rays; or both.

Sorry if that was too detailed and perhaps too low-level. I hope it helps anyway.

I understand the progression and momentum part completely. i was just wondering if anybody knew how far down the steel was effected by the fires. i can't find it anywhere. Thanks for your info though.
 
Highly dubious (eyeballing the "41") that you run from it :p.
Respect your elders.
[Broken External Image]:http://conleys.com.au/smilies/yelcard.gif
(I am reading; and wondering: You seem to have been explaing that truss sag -> IB -> reduction of column capacity -> perimeter column overload -> buckling of perimeter columns = beginning of vertical progression phase. Sounds "truss-led" to me.
Then you say: Semi-convinced of "core-led" initiation.
Please explain: Where does core-first tie into the above sequence? I.o.w., how would core-first action lead to truss sag, which in turn leads to perimeter IB? Other thread, if necessary)
The discussion is of issues at two different levels. viz of the whole mechanism or the parts which I have dubbed "building blocks".

I'm explaining joist to perimeter column as one "building block" part to warn of a trap which one member seemed to be falling for. He said this "The combination of a fraudulent claim of 47" sagging - the need for all trusses to sag 47" instantly - and to do that simultaneously". I dispute all three contentions. and explained briefly in my first responding post. His statement was in the context of joist pull-in due to sag from heating.

Tugging of the joist due to core drop is another plausible means of creating the joist pull-in force. And that would be compatible with my explanatory comments.

Go to the higher level - the discussion was about "core led' v "perimeter led" and that discussion stands independent of what sub mechanisms cause the perimeter failure or the core failure.

Yes there is a causal crossover between the two matters. It occurs if the macro mechanism, was core led AND core drop tugged the perimeter inwards via tension in the floor joists.

You could also have both at once - core tugging the joist which is already sagging due to heat etc.

Summary - no conflict - different plausible "building block". How the building blocks stack into the whole picture does not affect the validity of my comments about the sag due heat factor.

And the buckling of the inwards bowing perimeter still has two contributory elements. (1) Joist pull in force to get it started and (2) buckling due to p Delta to self propagate once the critical stage is reached.

Cast your mind back to another time and place. Many times both sides argued that there wasn't enough heat sag to cause all the IB. And both sides treating it as one factor only. Forgetting self buckling once the critical eccentricity was reached. That was the trap my original cautionary comment was meant to avoid.
 
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I understand the progression and momentum part completely. i was just wondering if anybody knew how far down the steel was effected by the fires. i can't find it anywhere. Thanks for your info though.
I don’t know - Oystein may. But it doesn't matter. Only the fire and impact zone cascade failure needed the heat weakening. But once the progression "Three Mechanisms' were under way the forces/energies were orders of magnitude overwhelming. No heat effects needed. And once started that combination of ROOSD/Perimeter Peel/Core Strip Down was never going to stop.

Recall that the progression "Three Mechanisms" nowhere relied on column buckling or crushing.

The only forces of significance were:
a) Floor joist to column shear off at both perimeter and core; PLUS
b) shear failure of the horizontal beams in the core.

There was no significant column end in top block landing on column end in lower tower.

The falling columns of the top block bypassed the lower tower parts of those columns from the starting point i.e. "Top Block" falling. That is where the Bazant later papers and Tony Szamboti's "missing Jolt' went off the rails. And mega words of futile discussion have occurred on Internet forums. Both sides usually missing the starting premise. Mainly the legacy of inappropriate application to the real event of Bazant's assumptions of his first paer with Zhou. (If that situation is not shared wisdom here either I can explain. Or any of the JREF "old hands")

I trust I'm not drifting too far from your enquiry - I'll stop there.
 
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I understand the progression and momentum part completely. i was just wondering if anybody knew how far down the steel was effected by the fires. i can't find it anywhere. Thanks for your info though.

This is the inward bowing thread. But NCSTAR 1-5A has a lot of detail on where the fires were. It's not going to affect the building much below the fires at all, and zero after a floor or two. It's the collapse that does it.
https://www.metabunk.org/files/NIST...age Estimate - Timeline Analysis_unlocked.pdf
 
Only the fire and impact zone cascade failure needed the heat weakening.

May I ask (after reading through)?

In regards to inward bowing....this discussion has been about WTC2, hit second (17 minutes after the impact on WTC1), yet as we know, WTC2 collapsed first. A salient fact is that the impact (from United 175) on WTC2 was well off-center. (**) (As compared to the American 11 impact on the other Tower). (** ETA: Also, United 175 had a different bank angle, on impact....American 11 was more level. Thus, United 175's wings would have been able to cause more of an impact "swath", vertically).

Does this add an element to the stresses that were involved in the collapse initiation?
 
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Tugging of the joist due to core drop is another plausible means of creating the joist pull-in force. And that would be compatible with my explanatory comments.
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Yes there is a causal crossover between the two matters. It occurs if the macro mechanism, was core led AND core drop tugged the perimeter inwards via tension in the floor joists.

You could also have both at once - core tugging the joist which is already sagging due to heat etc.

Summary - no conflict - different plausible "building block". How the building blocks stack into the whole picture does not affect the validity of my comments about the sag due heat factor.
...
Gotcha - thanks

I don’t know - Oystein may.
Nope, not my core area of "expertise". I am the "paint-ain't-thermite" guy :p
 
May I ask (after reading through)?

In regards to inward bowing....this discussion has been about WTC2, hit second (17 minutes after the impact on WTC1), yet as we know, WTC2 collapsed first. A salient fact is that the impact (from United 175) on WTC2 was well off-center. (**) (As compared to the American 11 impact on the other Tower). (** ETA: Also, United 175 had a different bank angle, on impact....American 11 was more level. Thus, United 175's wings would have been able to cause more of an impact "swath", vertically).

Does this add an element to the stresses that were involved in the collapse initiation?
Three factors IMO hastened the demise of WTC2.
1) Struck lower therefore more total weight above the impact and fire zone;
2) Off centre as you identified.
3) Tilt - a consequence of the two preceding but adds its own additional contribution to the cascading failure.

I've never tried quantifying the forces/energies for several reasons.

However there is another aspect which often arises in discussions. I cannot remember if you are an engineer or applied physics person so forgive me if this is obvious. It may not be to other members.

There is often a presumption that load redistribution is a matter of proportions e.g. a cutting of 25% of columns will result in 33% additional load on those remaining.

That is not so and reality is always "worse" than uniform proportional extra loading in any cut/failed columns redistribution scenario.

Take an imaginary scenario - assume that the plane impact had cut every perimeter column on one face - WTC1 or WTC2.

Would the redistribution have put extra load on the opposite face? Almost certainly no. It would either reduce the loads in the opposite face to zero OR even place it in tension. And massively increase the load on the core. Way beyond simple proportional reallocation.

If that example raises curiosity we can take it to another thread.

But it is another reason why I prefer to discuss "building blocks" rather than "whole scenario of mechanism details."

And back directly to your question - off centre impact would not simply bias the loadings - it would exacerbate the uneven loading far more than simple proportional redistribution.
 
Three factors IMO hastened the demise of WTC2.
1) Struck lower therefore more total weight above the impact and fire zone;
2) Off centre as you identified.
3) Tilt - a consequence of the two preceding but adds its own additional contribution to the cascading failure.

Thanks, and seems reasonable (and comports to my line of thought).

Being off centre ('center', Americanism...perhaps not "trope"...but something...) may have also contributed to the external images, of the "bowing". Unfortunately, in the auspices of this thread, the precise physical mechanisms occurring inside the building are far more complicated. Since of course, they were not visible.

Requires complex "modelling" (whether physical, by scale or by very super-computing ability).

And back directly to your question - off centre impact would not simply bias the loadings - it would exacerbate the uneven loading far more than simple proportional redistribution.

Once again....well stated. FAR better than I have been able to articulate in....umpteen years!
 
May I ask (after reading through)?

In regards to inward bowing....this discussion has been about WTC2, hit second (17 minutes after the impact on WTC1), yet as we know, WTC2 collapsed first. A salient fact is that the impact (from United 175) on WTC2 was well off-center. (**) (As compared to the American 11 impact on the other Tower). (** ETA: Also, United 175 had a different bank angle, on impact....American 11 was more level. Thus, United 175's wings would have been able to cause more of an impact "swath", vertically).

Does this add an element to the stresses that were involved in the collapse initiation?
Flight 175 had more energy, and could damage more columns, KE equal to 2093 pounds of TNT
Flight 11 had KE of 1300 pounds of TNT.
Robertson design point was 186 or so pounds of TNT.
I have to look it up, but I think the estimate of core columns damage was 6 for Flt 11, and 10 for Flt 175. The flights had 7 and 11 times more energy than the design impact.
 
Flight 175 had more energy, and could damage more columns, KE equal to 2093 pounds of TNT
Flight 11 had KE of 1300 pounds of TNT.
Robertson design point was 186 or so pounds of TNT.
I have to look it up, but I think the estimate of core columns damage was 6 for Flt 11, and 10 for Flt 175. The flights had 7 and 11 times more energy than the design impact.


in other words, flight 175 had the energy equivalent to 1/10 of a nuclear bomb...and what makes people think that can't bring down the wtc?? i will never know..
 
in other words, flight 175 had the energy equivalent to 1/10 of a nuclear bomb...and what makes people think that can't bring down the wtc?? i will never know..
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Is there a nuke that small. A small nuke would be 600 tons of TNT. 175 had the most energy at 2000 pounds of TNT in KE. The collapse of one Tower was about 130 tons of TNT in energy released. When you add up all the heat energy and collapse energy you have more than a small nuke.

When the amount of energy a nuke has sinks in, the "nuke" branch of 911 truth enters new areas of uncharted ignorance.
 
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Is there a nuke that small. A small nuke would be 600 tons of TNT. 175 had the most energy at 2000 pounds of TNT in KE. The collapse of one Tower was about 130 tons of TNT in energy released. When you add up all the heat energy and collapse energy you have more than a small nuke.

When the amount of energy a nuke has sinks in, the "nuke" branch of 911 truth enters new areas of uncharted ignorance.

i was referring to the kinetic energy of a nuke, not the size itself...speaking of which, i ran into a conspiracy theorists who believes that nuclear energy does not exist. It was quite funny, because i had ham in the MICROWAVE as i was reading his explanations. i think i might want to start a new thread on this. they actually believe hiroshiema was done with napalm strikes, and nuclear weapons do not exist. Here is the link to the man.

http://heiwaco.tripod.com/bomb.htm

feel free to debunk this man metabunk. ironically, he is also a holocaust, 9.11, sandy hook and pearl harbor denier...

Here is the catch! He is offering 1 million Euro's to who ever can PROVE that fires caused the collapse of the twin towers...this should be easy, considering his specialty is in marine engineering...he makes BOATS!!! someone should jump on this right away! Im guessing very few people have heard this, and im also guessing he doens't have 1 million to give away, otherwise this would have already happened...Check out the link above! It's quite an eye opener. Mick, feel free to start a new thread on it.. i have no idea how to make a thread, nor do i want to spend the time doing it, so feel free.
 
jazzy, im an investigative journalist. just curious, you don't happen to be a structural/civil engineer do you? and jazzy, just for future debates, if someone is claiming the towers were demo'd, just show them this picture. you're pretty much guaranteed to not get a reply back from the person you show this to.


This image was taken from a larger study. It was taken, as usual, without giving credit to the person who created it, and by taking it out of the context in which it was originally presented.

The collective mappings of which it is only one part is available at this link. It is accompanied by other useful images which map a process very different from what is being described in this thread. Some of you may learn much more by taking observations and measurements as a whole, rather than in tiny selective bits, while ignoring other bits they do not wish to see.


I'd appreciate it if people, both truther and debunker, stop stealing select images and ideas from other people and using them for their own very limited purposes.



Credit for image and original observation of north face pull-in: Achimspok.

The same type of action was visible on WTC1, but the WTC1 collapse initiation sequence occurred over a tilt of less than 1 degree.
 
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in other words, flight 175 had the energy equivalent to 1/10 of a nuclear bomb...and what makes people think that can't bring down the wtc?? i will never know..

If you wish to put it into those terms. Kinetic energy is tremendous, when focused. No need for a "nuclear" reaction.

Kinetics, and mass. In fact....(sorry if this steers OT!)....it is somewhat about how the initiation of the first nuclear "bomb" was done.
The "implosive" technique (I think this is no longer a "secret", by this point?).
 
This image was taken from a larger study. It was taken, as usual, without giving credit to the person who created it, and by taking it out of the context in which it was originally presented.

The collective mappings of which it is only one part is available at this link. It is accompanied by other useful images which map a process very different from what is being described in this thread. Some of you may learn much more by taking observations and measurements as a whole, rather than in tiny selective bits, while ignoring other bits they do not wish to see.


I'd appreciate it if people, both truther and debunker, stop stealing select images and ideas from other people and using them for their own very limited purposes.

Credit for image and original observation of north face pull-in: Achimspok.

The same type of action was visible on WTC1, but the WTC1 collapse initiation sequence occurred over a tilt of less than 1 degree.

i didn't find that image from that website...its on google image search, so it sounds like multiple people have it. NOBODY is claiming "Credit" for that photo. this is a discussion about "collapses". And the "Image" has a "Link" to it. Right click on the image and it takes you to the page that it is originally from.
 
Since I have all the 9/11 debunkers here....

Metabunk is not JREF. It's not the place for endless discussions about minutia. It's a place for creating useful debunks.
Nobody is going to "solve" the precise nature of the collapse of the towers in a discussion thread. But we can try to eliminate misconceptions.

The problem here really isn't the science. It's communication.

If you'd like to help create some short useful explanations, refutations, or illustrations, then that's great. If you just want to endlessly delve, then there's other forums for that, which I'm sure you are familiar with.
 
So how does this "gif put a lie to the idea of the trusses as the cause"?

Not a single gif, but larger bodies of more accurate and detailed observations and measurements of both WTC1 and 2 point to a different failure mode.

No single collapse initiation feature can give that information, but groupings of features can. The collected features cannot be found in official reports, so it is a difficult subject to approach.
 
Metabunk is not JREF. It's not the place for endless discussions about minutia. It's a place for creating useful debunks.
Nobody is going to "solve" the precise nature of the collapse of the towers in a discussion thread. But we can try to eliminate misconceptions.

The problem here really isn't the science. It's communication.

Are you claiming to recognize the difference between perimeter-led and core-led collapse?

How do you do that without accurate sets of observations and measurements?
 
Not a single gif, but larger bodies of more accurate and detailed observations and measurements of both WTC1 and 2 point to a different failure mode.

No single collapse initiation feature can give that information, but groupings of features can. The collected features cannot be found in official reports, so it is a difficult subject to approach.

no, the point of this gif is to show how the column beams were pulled inward during the initiation of the collapse....that's all, nothing more. it proves that "most likely" explosives were not used to start the collapse.
 
Am I allowed to write what the point of the gif actually was, since I know the guy that made it?

My other post was deleted.
 
The actual kinetic energy of the plane may not be as critical as Beachy states. If the plane kinetic energy was applied by the profile of the plane slamming into the tower more energy applied to sever a column achieves the same result... a severed column. I suppose if there was so much kinetic energy the severing mass might then sever or damage another column... assuming they were in line with the motion. It's not clear to me how applying more mechanical energy to the same structural elements makes a difference... above the threshold amount to destroy the node or column etc.
 
I am an admin on a couple of FB groups with truth in their names. I would love for metabunk to have a series of files that debunk many common conspiracies on 9/11 and other things as well. It could even include a link back to the discussion (that would be helpful).
 
For me, the inward bowing is simply evidence that a slow degeneration of the structural integrity of the towers was taking place.

Since a progressive degeneration of the structure, IS in evidence, and there is nothing to support the existence of high explosives, and since there is no requirement for high explosives or incindiary devices in order to explain the inward bowing of collapse initiation, the reasonable conclusion is that impact damage followed by progressive heat damage caused the initiation of collapse of the towers.

On a purely engineering discussion, yes, it is important for future construction, to understand the mechanism by which this inward deformation of a line of columns was effected.
Woo conspiracy shouldn't even enter the discussion.
 
The issue is whether the deformation is from tension.... being pulled by trusses at 80" OC or whether it's from buckling.

Try this... the double trusses were connect to ever other facade column at mid spandrel ht. We are led to believe that the forces applied to ever other steel facade column... connected by a spandrel plate deformed the column without the truss connections the same amount as the columns with the truss connections. That is... the flat plate spandrels were so stiff (they were not) that they did not deform and were able to transfer the tensile forces to the the columns on either side.

If you believe that... I have a bridge I'd like to sell you at a great price.

Conclusion... inward bowing is basically the result of buckling from axial forces exceeding capacity. And yeah deformation increased over time.
 
I am an admin on a couple of FB groups with truth in their names. I would love for metabunk to have a series of files that debunk many common conspiracies on 9/11 and other things as well. It could even include a link back to the discussion (that would be helpful).
There is a wealth of information available. I'm not sure where it all is - or if it all is - on Metabunk. I'm a newbie here. And no matter which forum the info tends to be scattered rather than collated and packaged into single post explanations. I've done a bit of packaging over the years - not always easy to recover for several reasons.

However - Could you provide - in an appropriate thread - a list of some of the "many common conspiracies on 9/11" that interest you.

For your purpose I suggest it would be better if they were single or simple building block aspects rather than gross high level claims.

eg easier and more useful to you to address specifics such as "explosions were heard at WTCx" rather than a global claim such as "WTC Collapses were obviously CDed."


EDIT - added the "appropriate thread" comment.
 
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...Woo conspiracy shouldn't even enter the discussion.
I agree. If we refused to accept "reversed burden of proof" AND wouldn't discuss woo - most of these discussions over last 13 years could have been avoided. But remember status of stable doors and location of equus. :rolleyes:
 
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