Need Debunking: CERN To Recreate Big Bang

SabreSaint

New Member
The latest in a never ending stream of doomsday theories. A number of conspiracy sites such as All News Pipeline are claiming that when CERN reopens in March they will be attempting to recreate the big bang and in doing so will create a black hole that will devour earth and eventually the universe.

As part of their evidence for this they quote video, "Warnings" from Stephen Hawking and Neil deGrasse Tyson. Unfortunately I cannot find the video/audio for either of these warnings.

However it would seem that Hawking was referring to a particle accelerator that would need to be larger than earth itself. Something that would need to generate over 100bn GeVs, of which the LHC can only produce about six. While Tyson's warning wasn't actually a warning at all but an out of context excerpt from a podcast he did where he answered a viewer question about how or if it was possible to destroy a planet like in Star Wars.

The website below seems to be a hub/summation of the conspiracy and all of its branches.
http://allnewspipeline.com/CERN_Recreate_Big_Bang.php

The theory is also put forth here.
http://asheepnomore.net/2015/02/12/...ng-march-2015-stephen-hawking-issues-warning/

There are several other conspiracies linked to this such as the LHC being used as a way to develop weapons, or reptilian aliens opening a dimensional rift or the NWO directed by Satan using it to destroy the earth and open the gates of hell. However in attempting to find evidence of these claims I keep getting directed into a feedback loop of sources leading back to the All News Pipeline article.

There are countless other theory videos on youtube about CERN being Satanic and their logo being 666 and the statue of Kali they have on the premises/ as part of some alternate branding and logos they use. But if I posted all of those here this post would be eight pages long.

The central issue at hand would be, "Is CERN trying to recreate the big bang" or worded another way, "Will CERN's experiments in March destroy us all?"
 

Hevach

Senior Member.
The LHC's maximum energy is only 6500 GeV. The smallest experiment which could even hypothetically destroy us all (Higgs Boson Metastability, which only fits one of several predicted models of the Higgs Boson, but experiments to date have not helped narrow down which model is corect) would require around 100,000,000,000 GeV, which in turn requires a collider with a mass greater than Earth and power almost equal to the sun's output. Basically, you need a Dyson Sphere just to even toy with the idea, we're two levels too far down the Kardashev scale to do more than write books about it (in technological terms, we're less advanced over termites than such a civilization would be over us).

Now, they ARE trying to recreate elements of the big bang - specifically, they're creating quark-gluon plasma, believed to be the first form of matter in the universe. They've already done this many times, in fact, the first time back in 2010. So far the world remains stubbornly undestroyed. The awkwardly named A Large Ion Collider Experiment (ALICE) detector was built specifically for these experiments.

They are not, however, actually creating a big bang, they're creating something that existed during it. quark-gluon plasma is not the first such thing we've created, though it is the highest energy.



Now, the symbols:
The Shiva Nataraja stature was a gift from India to mark the partnership between CERN and several of their organizations. It's quite heavy in symbolism, but it is not destruction. Shiva's a more complex deity than that with numerous forms and aspects both gentle and fierce (most of the symbolism CTs put on the statue is closer to common presentations of Kali, not Shiva, who despite his association with destruction and endings is generally a benevolent deity). The dancing Shiva specifically represents change, not destruction.
http://www.quantumdiaries.org/2011/11/10/in-the-shadow-of-shiva/
And the logo:

The two rings and five projections is based on the design of a synchrotron, probably the Proton Synchrotron and/or Super Proton Synchrotron that CERN operates. It was originally going to look like a schematic, but the CERN scientists felt it looked too ominous (and I know at least one person who suggested it looked like a butthole in that version).
http://twomosquitoes.blogspot.com/2008/09/cerns-logo-666-learn-its-true-origin.html
Edit: To add, this is actually NOT a scholarly source, though they published this particular bit from an email from a CERN insider. This blog used to be one of the most active sources of CT bunk regarding the LHC! Just goes to show you, even they have their limits.
On the "black hole" bit: CERN's created those, as well. High end particle accelerators have been doing that since the 90's. Black holes that small aren't actually black holes in the astronomical sense, gravity is the weakest force governing particles at that scale. They decay so quickly they can barely be said to have existed in the first place. And, if they didn't, their Eddington Limit (the maximum rate a black hole can absorb mass before radiation pressure exceeds its attractive force) is so low they can only absorb mass on the order of protons per day. If all the black holes the LHC ever created still existed, they'd take tens of thousands of years to absorb enough mass for the LHC to drift out of tolerances, let alone the trillions they'd require to get all the way through the housing. The sun will die long before they could ever destroy the Earth.
 
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sharpnfuzzy

Active Member
Now, they ARE trying to recreate elements of the big bang - specifically, they're creating quark-gluon plasma, believed to be the first form of matter in the universe. They've already done this many times, in fact, the first time back in 2010. The awkwardly named A Large Ion Collider Experiment (ALICE) detector was built specifically for these experiments.

They are not, however, actually creating a big bang, they're creating something that existed during it. quark-gluon plasma is not the first such thing we've created, though it is the highest energy.

Yeah I find that there is always this misconception that they are trying to create (re-create) "The Big Bang" and destroy us all when in actuality they are trying to re-create the conditions (e.g. temperatures) that existed just after the big bang.

Collisions in the LHC generate temperatures more than 100,000 times hotter than the centre of the Sun. For part of each year the LHC provides collisions between lead ions, recreating in the laboratory conditions similar to those just after the big bang. Under these extreme conditions, protons and neutrons "melt", freeing the quarks from their bonds with the gluons.

http://home.web.cern.ch/about/experiments/alice
 

Whitebeard

Senior Member.
I think the problem isn't helped by all the trash sci-thriller films and TV that play on the old science gone mad stuff. Don't get me wrong, I do enjoy them in a 'take yer brain out and enjoy the movie' sort of way, but I have spoken to a few people over the years who see them as either 'a warning as to what science is really about' or worse as dramatised versions of real events! (These people are normally the type that will buy into most conspiracy theories anyway)

They tend to forget the whole nutty scientist bit has been a staple of fiction since at least Mary Shelley first published Frankenstein. And whilst these stories may be seen as a warning about 'man playing god' and other such ethical and philosophical issues, they also tend to forget that the scientists themselves are also well aware of of those same issues and what they are doing*. They live on Earth as well and have no vested interest in zapping everyone, including themselves and their own family, friends and loved ones, into a black hole or making Earth ground zero in the next big bang.

*As witnessed by the on going debate around real geo-engineering and issues any such action raises

(As for back holes on Earth, this is a classic UK TV movie about just that...
DOOMWATCH - Winter Angel. (1999)
An enjoyable bit of sci-FICTION made all the better by staring the great Trevor Eve.)
 

Hevach

Senior Member.
I have to admit I'm baffled at the idea that people think a scientist would knowingly and intentionally destroy the planet they're standing on. I'm reminded of a few conversations from various books and movies, but the most recent seems appropriate:
Rocket: "What has the galaxy ever done for you? Why do you care so much what happens to it?"
Starlord: "Because I'm one of the idiots who LIVES IN IT!"
 

Henk001

Senior Member.
A reassuring thought might be that the Earth(s atmosphere) is being hit by cosmic particles with energy's of about 5*10^19 eV a few thousand times a year. Comparing this with the LHC's maximum of 1,4*10^13 eV.......
 

Mick West

Administrator
Staff member
A reassuring thought might be that the Earth(s atmosphere) is being hit by cosmic particles with energy's of about 5*10^19 eV a few thousand times a year. Comparing this with the LHC's maximum of 1,4*10^13 eV.......

That's only reassuring if you know what "10^" means, otherwise it looks like the LHC is 68% as powerful as the sun!
 

Hevach

Senior Member.
A reassuring thought might be that the Earth(s atmosphere) is being hit by cosmic particles with energy's of about 5*10^19 eV a few thousand times a year. Comparing this with the LHC's maximum of 1,4*10^13 eV.......
My link on the logo actually provides some context on why this information doesn't help people (I also edited my first post to note that despite knowing the truth about the logo the blog was still a major source of bunk when it was active). The banner from the top of that page:


See, when two particles collide in the LHC, the energy involved is about the same as a head-on collision between two mosquitoes. Several CT sources have over the years claimed that, if this were true, every time mosquitoes bumped into each other they should unleash the same temperatures (mating season around the great lakes should scour Michigan from the map every fall!). In a few comments on the Two Mosquitoes blog, people try to explain to the writer that the energy release of being shot with a small caliber bullet is comparable to being beaten with a rolled up newspaper, but only one of those things has that energy in a small enough space to cause lethal injury (the bullet impacting an area smaller than a square centimeter and the newspaper impacting an area of many square centimeters), but they'll have none of it.
 
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Moses3D

New Member
It seems like All News Pipeline will latch on to just about any doomsday conspiracy theory out there even to the point of contradicting themselves. For example, someone will claim the LHC will destroy the world and the next article will be on Nibiru destroying the world (that particular conspiracy seems to be making a comeback for some reason). It's really quite hard to believe anyone would take them seriously at this point.
 

Henk001

Senior Member.
That's only reassuring if you know what "10^" means, otherwise it looks like the LHC is 68% as powerful as the sun!
To avoid any misunderstanding: the cosmic ray particles have an energy about 3 million times that of the CERN particles
 

Henk001

Senior Member.
My link on the logo actually provides some context on why this information doesn't help people (I also edited my first post to note that despite knowing the truth about the logo the blog was still a major source of bunk when it was active). The banner from the top of that page:


See, when two particles collide in the LHC, the energy involved is about the same as a head-on collision between two mosquitoes. Several CT sources have over the years claimed that, if this were true, every time mosquitoes bumped into each other they should unleash the same temperatures (mating season around the great lakes should scour Michigan from the map every fall!). In a few comments on the Two Mosquitoes blog, people try to explain to the writer that the energy release of being shot with a small caliber bullet is comparable to being beaten with a rolled up newspaper, but only one of those things has that energy in a small enough space to cause lethal injury (the bullet impacting an area smaller than a square centimeter and the newspaper impacting an area of many square centimeters), but they'll have none of it.
The main error in the two mosquitos argument is that energy and temperature are two different things. Essentially, temperature is how energy is distributed over particles. Or to avoid any misunderstanding: there is more energy in 10 L of water with a temperature of 10 °C than in a cup of tea with a temperature of 90 °C.
Two mosquitos have a total mass in the order of 10 mg. The protons in CERN have a mass a billion billion times smaller.
But I'm afraid this won't convince them either
 

Trailblazer

Moderator
Staff member
That's only reassuring if you know what "10^" means, otherwise it looks like the LHC is 68% as powerful as the sun!

Perhaps better to write them as 14,000,000,000,000 versus 50,000,000,000,000,000,000.

Or, converting to TeV to make the numbers more manageable, the LHC particles have an energy of 14 TeV, whereas the particles from the sundeep space (edit: see below) have an energy of 50 million TeV.
 
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Henk001

Senior Member.
To avoid any misunderstanding (and a bit off topic): These extremely high-energy cosmic particles are almost certainly not from the sun. They are thought to be originated in supernova explosions or supermassive black holes in galactic centers. Truly "cosmic".
 

Burke Burnett

New Member
A new meme regarding CERN's supposed effect on the Earth's magnetosphere is out there now (see attached pic). This is stated as a putative cause of mass whale beachings, mysterious animal deaths, and even earthquakes.

I know this is utter nonsense, but lack sufficient knowledge of the physics of magnetism or even the various terminologies (GeVs, Teslas, etc.) to debunk it. Can anyone help? Thanks.
 

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Mick West

Administrator
Staff member
A new meme regarding CERN's supposed effect on the Earth's magnetosphere is out there now (see attached pic). This is stated as a putative cause of mass whale beachings, mysterious animal deaths, and even earthquakes.

I know this is utter nonsense, but lack sufficient knowledge of the physics of magnetism or even the various terminologies (GeVs, Teslas, etc.) to debunk it. Can anyone help? Thanks.

That which is asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence.

I wouldn't waste time try to prove something isn't so. Just note that there's no evidence. There's an infinite number of things that might be happening.
 

Hevach

Senior Member.
This is kind of like the claim that the LHC caused that plane crash a couple months ago, but even more extreme.

It's an issue of energy. The amount of energy needed is on the order of the entire annual global electrical output every few milliseconds. CERN has many incredibly high energy devices, but they couldn't cause this level of disruption at ground level immediately above the tunnels those devices are housed in, let alone on a global scale.

There's also the inverse square law. Magnetic field strength decreases with the square of distance, similar to gravity but governed by a very different set of equations. To have any effect on a global scale, its local effect has to be beyond catastrophic - CERN could fry every power grid and electronic device in Europe and cause unrestrained metal objects to fly through the air and still not be able to make a compass needle twitch in Japan.
 

skephu

Senior Member.
A new meme regarding CERN's supposed effect on the Earth's magnetosphere is out there now (see attached pic). This is stated as a putative cause of mass whale beachings, mysterious animal deaths, and even earthquakes.

I know this is utter nonsense, but lack sufficient knowledge of the physics of magnetism or even the various terminologies (GeVs, Teslas, etc.) to debunk it. Can anyone help? Thanks.
It is true that they generate a magnetic field that is 100,000 times stronger than Earth's. But that field is concentrated within the LHC facility. It's local, confined, so it doesn't affect Earth's magnetic field. Similarly, a plasma torch creates temperatures higher than the Sun's surface temperature, and we still don't worry that by lighting a plasma torch, we create a new Sun here. The high temperature of the plasma torch is restricted to the small flame.
 

Santa's sidekick

Senior Member
It is true that they generate a magnetic field that is 100,000 times stronger than Earth's. But that field is concentrated within the LHC facility. It's local, confined, so it doesn't affect Earth's magnetic field. Similarly, a plasma torch creates temperatures higher than the Sun's surface temperature, and we still don't worry that by lighting a plasma torch, we create a new Sun here. The high temperature of the plasma torch is restricted to the small flame.
How is a magnetic field restricted?
 

Graham2001

Active Member
I think the problem isn't helped by all the trash sci-thriller films and TV that play on the old science gone mad stuff. Don't get me wrong, I do enjoy them in a 'take yer brain out and enjoy the movie' sort of way, but I have spoken to a few people over the years who see them as either 'a warning as to what science is really about' or worse as dramatised versions of real events! (These people are normally the type that will buy into most conspiracy theories anyway).

I've got a technothriller called "The Capricorn Quadrant" (Charles Ryan c. 1990) which has a French particle collider in the South Pacific accidentally re-creating the big bang, though only on a scale large enough to vapourise the facility and cause all sorts of interesting gravitational anomalies, which IMHO was probably the best part of the novel.
 

Svartbjørn

Senior Member.
How is a magnetic field restricted?

Its restricted by power and size. Rare earth Magnets are stronger than the earth's magnetic field but they're so small that they dont have an effect on the earth as a whole..

As you can see above, a simple magnet that you use to hold your kid's macaroni art on the fridge is twice as strong as the earth's magnetic field at its core. The difference is sheer scale. You're talking about a molten sphere of iron thats ~1300 KM in diameter vs a small ring thats a 27 KM in circumference and 100 m in diameter in spots. In that sense, the magnetic field in the LHC is restricted to a local area and will have little to no impact on the earth's magnetic field at all.
 

skephu

Senior Member.
How is a magnetic field restricted?
Basically by putting the two poles of the magnet close to each other, like in an electromagnet with a C-shaped iron core:
.
The flux lines go in the iron core, and only exit the core in the small air gap. The field is concentrated in the gap, and there is very little stray field outside the gap.
In the LHC, a system of electromagnets is arranged so that the field is very high in the two channels of the big ring, and drops very quickly outside the channels. Cross section:

The magnetic field carries energy, so it would be a waste of energy to generate a field outside the ring where it's not needed.
 

sharpnfuzzy

Active Member
Couldn't all these LHC fears be alleviated by looking at a compass? If the compass still points to the magnetic north then you, the animals, and the earth's magnetic field in general have nothing to worry about.
 

Svartbjørn

Senior Member.
Couldn't all these LHC fears be alleviated by looking at a compass? If the compass still points to the magnetic north then you, the animals, and the earth's magnetic field in general have nothing to worry about.


Depends on how close you are to the magnetic field.. Rare Earths, for example, can affect a compass from several yards away or more.. so a compass by itself wont be a good indicator. [...]
 
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Rezterk

New Member
The latest in a never ending stream of doomsday theories. A number of conspiracy sites such as All News Pipeline are claiming that when CERN reopens in March they will be attempting to recreate the big bang and in doing so will create a black hole that will devour earth and eventually the universe.

As part of their evidence for this they quote video, "Warnings" from Stephen Hawking and Neil deGrasse Tyson. Unfortunately I cannot find the video/audio for either of these warnings.

However it would seem that Hawking was referring to a particle accelerator that would need to be larger than earth itself. Something that would need to generate over 100bn GeVs, of which the LHC can only produce about six. While Tyson's warning wasn't actually a warning at all but an out of context excerpt from a podcast he did where he answered a viewer question about how or if it was possible to destroy a planet like in Star Wars.

The website below seems to be a hub/summation of the conspiracy and all of its branches.
http://allnewspipeline.com/CERN_Recreate_Big_Bang.php

The theory is also put forth here.
http://asheepnomore.net/2015/02/12/...ng-march-2015-stephen-hawking-issues-warning/

There are several other conspiracies linked to this such as the LHC being used as a way to develop weapons, or reptilian aliens opening a dimensional rift or the NWO directed by Satan using it to destroy the earth and open the gates of hell. However in attempting to find evidence of these claims I keep getting directed into a feedback loop of sources leading back to the All News Pipeline article.

There are countless other theory videos on youtube about CERN being Satanic and their logo being 666 and the statue of Kali they have on the premises/ as part of some alternate branding and logos they use. But if I posted all of those here this post would be eight pages long.

The central issue at hand would be, "Is CERN trying to recreate the big bang" or worded another way, "Will CERN's experiments in March destroy us all?"

There's something I've never quite understood regarding apparent 666 symbolism hidden everywhere. Conspiracy folks point to things like the "OK" hand signal & especially anything remotely resembling a spiral. Most people know that the original reference to the number 666 & it's relation to apocalyptic & doomsday scenarios, is found in the Biblical book of Revelation. Revelation was written towards the end of the 1st century CE & was originally written & circulated in the Greek, Hebrew, & Latin languages. Some of the letters in these languages had dual purposes in that they also had numerical values. The specialized numerals like "6" that we use today are called Arabic Numerals. The conceptualization & accepted usage of Arabic Numerals didn't happen until the 6th century CE in India & parts of the Middle East. So whatever "visions" the author of Revelation (John) recorded, would in no way resemble the "6's" people are identifying in things like the CERN logo. In addition to this, spiral symbolism has been used since the dawn of human civilization. The only thing these supposedly hidden 666's illustrate is the brain's tendency to recognize patterns. Even when there are no correlations, those expecting or wanting to find them almost certainly will with the aid of the aforementioned phenomenon.
 

Whitebeard

Senior Member.
There's something I've never quite understood regarding apparent 666 symbolism hidden everywhere. Conspiracy folks point to things like the "OK" hand signal & especially anything remotely resembling a spiral. Most people know that the original reference to the number 666 & it's relation to apocalyptic & doomsday scenarios, is found in the Biblical book of Revelation. Revelation was written towards the end of the 1st century CE & was originally written & circulated in the Greek, Hebrew, & Latin languages. Some of the letters in these languages had dual purposes in that they also had numerical values. The specialized numerals like "6" that we use today are called Arabic Numerals. The conceptualization & accepted usage of Arabic Numerals didn't happen until the 6th century CE in India & parts of the Middle East. So whatever "visions" the author of Revelation (John) recorded, would in no way resemble the "6's" people are identifying in things like the CERN logo. In addition to this, spiral symbolism has been used since the dawn of human civilization. The only thing these supposedly hidden 666's illustrate is the brain's tendency to recognize patterns. Even when there are no correlations, those expecting or wanting to find them almost certainly will with the aid of the aforementioned phenomenon.
its even dafter when you realise that the whole 666 thing in Revelations is a mistranslation. The earliest known texts refer to 616 being the number of the beast.
http://www.religionnewsblog.com/11134/beasts-real-mark-devalued-to-616
 

Kevin McMillen

New Member
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