Hypothesis: Fravor's Tic Tac was Kurth's FA18

Domzh

Active Member
"na they have an FA18 growler for EW and thats a 2 seater"
What's that comment in response to?
to you! post #74

"Or maybe it was Kurth all along and he had an EW unit on his Jet, it was altered as per the reports.
Would explain a lot. Radar jams etc"


The nimitz strike group does have a FA18 for EW, its a dedicated aircraft called the Growler and it's a two seater

Kurth was flying a one seater

It's strange Fravor said the radar was clear, while Kurth saw him and Dietrich on his radar.
 

GlobularOrb

New Member
na they have an FA18 growler for EW and thats a 2 seater

At this moment its (w/o anti grav scenario):

- Kurths Jet & Weather Phenomenon & Misidentification

versus

- Some submarine launching EW balloons / blimps & Misjudging size and distance

IDEA: Maybe we can have a talk with some of the princeton radar guys or someone who used to do radar in submarines who could give some insights regarding EW training at san clemente island. If launching EW 100 miles away could be part of a training?

@Mick West Do you believe Kevin Day would be up for another
Why not both? Parts of the Kurth's Jet hypothesis seem consistent with the balloon/parallax hypothesis. Some aspects of the Kurth's Jet hypothesis explain some aspects of the eyewitness reports, as you've argued, but omits or has to stretch to explain others (for example the reported shape and surface features of the Tic Tac, Dietrich's report that it "tumbled impossibly," or Fravor's report that it bounced around like a ping pong ball near the surface and then ascended).

On the other hand, the balloon hypothesis can be used to explain at least some of these things (user Parabunk has argued this), but not things like the unexpected appearance of a fast-moving object, or the later appearance of a contact at the CAP point. The discrepancies in the eyewitness reports could be chalked up to different memories of a particularly intense and confusing 8-10 second period where three F/A-18s, an unusual balloon, and a submarine all converge on one spot at the same time. Suppose (and this is pure speculation) Fravor has his eyes only on the balloon during the event, but Dietrich sees both the balloon (ascending, tumbling impossibly, and then disappearing), and then immediately after saw Kurth's F/A-18 flying into the distance at high speed (consistent with the account in the '04 CVW-11 Event Summary claiming the "capsule" achieved 600-700 knots and disappeared into the haze), and incorrectly (but understandably) thought that they were the same object. (Kurth's flyby could have even contributed to the balloon's erratic behavior, or it popping).
 
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Domzh

Active Member
could be a mix of both indeed. this one ufo forrest incident was also a mixture of multiple events and misidentifications leading to one of the most famous ufo stories.

(randlesham forrest or similar sounding iirc)
 

Meat5000

Member
Logic tells me that the US Navy etc would not embarrass themselves by publicly releasing information stating they are unable to even track their own stuff. Its very clear that the accounts were given by servicemen who were played as part of a larger scheme. They are the mouthpieces of the uncertainty and fear aspects of this whole fiasco.
The only part of it that supports the accounts is the private charter flights in the area who say they regularly see things...but noone owns a camera.
With regard to changing stories, you will see this pattern repeated. There are many UFO cases in which a new 'player' has entered the field years after the event and suddenly recounts a new side of the story previously unheard and this new story always contains lots of conflicting information. This is classic disinformation campaign. The idea is to shake the credibility of accounts and prevent people such as users of this site from being able to derive the truth.

All planes have radar transponders and easily identifiable signatures. This follows that a misidentification by a pilot would have little bearing as the radar team would vector the craft, not a pilot.

If radar jamming was in employ, the Navy jamming their own planes, it follows that they probably also fired a signal into said radar transceivers to produce a 'false' reading. The radars either worked or they didnt. I dont see both scenarios being true.
 
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taurusclover21

New Member
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Jon Teets

New Member
An mp3 file can be created from a youtube video. It seems that a number of programs can convert audio to text. I think MS Word can even do it.
I grabbed the Spanish transcript, but it's missing the English parts. The cc translates that Spanish into English but ignores the English, so there's no transcript for when Dietrich speaks.

(Question) "Ask if she saw Kurtz's jet during the encounter"

The young woman translates Dietrich's answer into Spanish; here's the CC of that back into English. It's a mess --

"in the man s good she but knows that I was in the air at that time he was doing a functional check says that he does not know exactly what to think at which point in the air was one of the key witnesses that there is of this day a princeton controller so there was person Some that they were using on the radio or that were doing maneuvers in the air but that she was otherwise the most united of the team so she is there just trying not to lose her uncle"

Basically useless. Here's Dietrich's answer to my ears, with pauses omitted:

"So during our encounter I did not see, no, he would have been, Colonel, Lieutenant
Colonel Kurtz, he would have been the skipper of the VMFA 232 Red Devil. They were
the marine squadron attached to our air wing, flying off the aircraft carrier with us.
I do know that he was out, airborne at the time, so, I think he was the single ship,
or the single aircraft, and (today?) was the single seat pilot in a single aircraft
and I think he was doing a functional check flight at the time in the area so I don't
know where exactly he was in relation to us, and I don't know exactly -- you know I
certainly can't speak for him in terms of what he saw but I do know he was one of
those witnesses, just like the controller on the Princeton and we had an airborne
controller called Banger -- it was the call sign -- which was an E2, which has an
airborne radar. So there were a lot of different folks who were airborne or involved
or on the radios and listening to all these different conversations happening,
but I'm not sure, again, I was the most junior pilot involved and just tried to
hang on and not lose sight of my lead."
 

Mendel

Senior Member.
change the point of view and you have a tic tac. the phenomena can even "blink" what could be an explanation for a perceived erratic movement.

D06F83D8-B175-4FB3-89E8-331453F0BAF0.jpeg 50D46165-3BB7-497D-ADCF-DE117B54E949.jpeg

I just ran across a video of a supersonic jet flying at the speed of sound ("sonic"?), and the shockwave produced an instantaneous blinking round "cloud" much larger than the aircraft. I think it's not necessarily very probable that this happened with Kurth's jet, but this is the only thread so far where we've discussed fighter jets looking like white clouds. Especially with the "blinking", it might look from afar like a UFO breaking some laws of physics.
https://fb.watch/7gLq2oMxUH/
Source: https://m.facebook.com/combatlearjet/videos/657953884735532/

(Hopefully this embeds well.)
image.jpegimage.jpegimage.jpeg
 
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Ravi

Active Member
I just ran across a video of a supersonic jet flying at the speed of sound ("sonic"?), and the shockwave produced an instantaneous blinking round "cloud" much larger than the aircraft. I think it's not necessarily very probable that this happened with Kurth's jet, but this is the only thread so far where we've discussed fighter jets looking like white clouds. Especially with the "blinking", it might look from afar like a UFO breaking some laws of physics.
Source: https://m.facebook.com/combatlearjet/videos/657953884735532/

Not sure if I can agree.. I think the encounter's description differs significantly, with a -straight line- fast flying plane with a white disc, compared to a instantaneously speeding zip zapping tic tac.. I mean, it is pretty far fetched..
 

jarlrmai

Senior Member
Not sure if I can agree.. I think the encounter's description differs significantly, with a -straight line- fast flying plane with a white disc, compared to a instantaneously speeding zip zapping tic tac.. I mean, it is pretty far fetched..
More or less far fetched than some sort of extra-terrestrial/dimensional craft?
 

Mendel

Senior Member.
with a -straight line- fast flying plane with a white disc,
have you actually watched the clip? if you were far away enough to not discern the much smaller plane, the big white plume would look like it's "zipping".
 

Ravi

Active Member
I don't know why I am being ridiculed lately. I think I will refrain from commenting on this forum if this is how it is going.

I thought we were adults here, but alas.
 

jarlrmai

Senior Member
I don't know why I am being ridiculed lately. I think I will refrain from commenting on this forum if this is how it is going.

I thought we were adults here, but alas.

If it helps my comment was not meant to ridicule, I can't help how other people reacted.
 

Mauro

Active Member
Nor my 'funny' tag was meant to ridicule you @Ravi. I actually thought @jarlmai's post was supporting the general debunking of tic-tac with some humour (which I found funny), not that he was ridiculing you, at all. I'm sorry anyway.
 
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jackfrostvc

Active Member
I think the Kurth idea is just as valid as other guesses.

He was there at that exact time, but he wasnt meant to be there. They told him to skip it
He flew upto and then circled around the disturbance, then flew off
He saw them on radar , they didnt see him
Maybe he flew above them as per one account, but then there is an account indicating he was lower

If he was above them, they would have had an un obstructed view of him should they have looked up.

When he flew off, he saw the disturbance had cleared, when the tic tac flew off, Frqavor noticed the disturbance had cleared

Fravor/Alex saw a tic tac, Kurth did not see a tic tac


Do the math, as unlikely as it may seem, it does appear that there is a chance they saw his jet
 
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Domzh

Active Member
I just ran across a video of a supersonic jet flying at the speed of sound ("sonic"?), and the shockwave produced an instantaneous blinking round "cloud" much larger than the aircraft. I think it's not necessarily very probable that this happened with Kurth's jet, but this is the only thread so far where we've discussed fighter jets looking like white clouds. Especially with the "blinking", it might look from afar like a UFO breaking some laws of physics.
https://fb.watch/7gLq2oMxUH/
Source: https://m.facebook.com/combatlearjet/videos/657953884735532/

(Hopefully this embeds well.)
image.jpegimage.jpegimage.jpeg
dietrich said she was super junior and was focused to not loose sight of her lead.

fravor didnt expect another fa18 in their area.

kurth disregarded his orders to abort and decided to fly over the disturbance instead.

based on one reports altitude descriptions of fravor and kurth, kurth was below fravor and dietrich.

kurth only saw the disturbance below him and left when it ceased. he never saw a tic tac.

fravor saw a tic tac that left when the disturbance ceased.

the video above shows how clouding can have a round matte white shape that looks erratic due to blinking.

the tic tac shoot off at hypersonic speed according to fravor and reappeared at cap point.

kurths fa18 can fly hypersonic and left the disturbance heading back to cap point.

kurths fa18 was red team, so no friend transponder signature. his fa18 was also freshly serviced and he was doing check flights before he was ordered by his air controller to check the disturbance site. this could explain how they didnt identify fravors fa18 on their radar when it reappeared at cap point.

the whole eye witness encounter lasted only seconds due to dietrich, minutes would have been impossinle due to running out of fuel she said.

fravor and dietrich only had their eyes. no targeting pods, no flir, nada.

fravor himself said in an interview they are trained to not use their eyes but only sensors because the mind can trick you especially in the sky.

i believe 100% fravor mis ID kurths clouded jet for a tic tac but couldnt step back from his truth when he later found out because it would have been brutally embarrassing for him and the navy. if even he or others evaluated this scenario at all.

for what could have caused the disturbance, my money is on the submarine that was in this area. the radar tracks kevin day mentioned fit perfectly in altitude and windspeed and wind direction with the weather report from that day. this could indeed indicate the mentioned ice crystals the nimitz received a warning for.

we are talking about 30000 feet of altitude at merge plot so the disturbance / submarine could easily be multiple kilometers away and still be spotted at that alt over a otherwise perfectly calm ocean.
 

jarlrmai

Senior Member
An f/18 cannot go "hypersonic" it's generally defined as above 5x the speed of sound.

So it depends if Fravor's "hypersonic" just means really fast, i.e. faster than a jet fighter (the fastest thing he would expect to encounter.)

It vanishing could just be the effect stopping or something else.
 

Domzh

Active Member
youre right. i mixed it up with "supersonic"

:)

i agree, could be that he estimated the craft closer to him and bigger. when the clouding went away, it looked as if it zipped off much faster
 
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steviemac

Member
I can't imagine how insulting it must be, when you have several highly trained fighter pilots, some with decades of experience, being told that they didn't see what they know they saw. Can you imagine how it feels when your whole career has been a pilot and you know you saw something highly unusual that day, only to have a load of people tell you you didn't see it (people who have probably zero knowledge of flying, bar sitting in a passenger plane)

We now have another female pilot who came forward and also saw the 'tic tac' that day. So we have probably 4 , maybe more, experienced pilots, describing the same object and its incredible speed and manoeuvres. Yet I read through the most ridiculous theories here, insisting they saw anything but what they claimed.

It's hard to see people so desperate to discredit the pilots experience, that they seek to come up with any ludicrous theory about this mystery craft. (which we all know was caught on radar too ) .I'm reading incredible theories here, anything to avoid having to accept the eye witness accounts of all the pilots who saw this event. Must be so insulting to be a witness to the event and to have your account laughed at by people who simply can not or will not accept that this event happened as described
 

Mendel

Senior Member.
Yet I read through the most ridiculous theories here, insisting they saw anything but what they claimed.
They don't claim to have identified the object. They don't know what it is.

your whole career has been a pilot
They're good at flying planes. They're good at fighting other planes. That's their career.
Nobody is suggesting they're bad at it.

They don't have a career identifying UFOs.

I don't really understand why you feel insulted on their behalf.
 

Ravi

Active Member
They don't have a career identifying UFOs.

Just highlighting it :)

The discussions we have in this thread is not to prove the pilots saw something mundane.
The discussion here is to try to find out what they saw.
 

taurusclover21

New Member
Must be so insulting to be a witness to the event and to have your account laughed at by people who simply can not or will not accept that this event happened as described

Did you laugh when Day claimed (that Fravor told him) the so-called tic-tac did a barrel roll around Fravor?
 
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