Dzhokar Tsarnaev's Mysterious Throat Wound

NoParty

Senior Member.
It is a literal orgy of gunfire. We are all supposed to be innocent until proven guilty in a court of law.
What the heck happened to "come out with your hands up?" He obviously didn't shoot first. He didn't have a gun.
:eek: "...a literal orgy…" :eek:

Are you of the opinion that in this nation's past, when a suspect has been on the loose, thought to have killed innocents for a political goal,
believed to be armed and dangerous, thought to have killed a university police, thought to have committed an armed carjacking,
that at this moment police have put the courtroom motto of "innocent until proven guilty" before bringing the bloody crime spree to a halt?
Is that how it used to be?
 

curtispenner

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Are you of the opinion that in this nation's past, when a suspect has been on the loose, thought to have killed innocents for a political goal,
believed to be armed and dangerous, thought to have killed a university police, thought to have committed an armed carjacking,
that at this moment police have put the courtroom motto of "innocent until proven guilty" before bringing the bloody crime spree to a halt?
Is that how it used to be?
Sorry, I don't know what this means. I have read it through and I glean that it's asking me something but I don't know what. I was wondering what happened to "Come out with your hands up". He was unarmed and incapable of injuring any of them. In the police scanner video there is a big black tank with a metal arm poking around near the boat. So I don't think anyone was really in harm's way. So what happened to "come out with your hands up!" and then perhaps followed by "Alright, you haven't come out so in 10 seconds we are going to open fire on you in there and turn that boat you are in into swiss cheese." Maybe all of this was said but I haven't heard any audio to that effect yet. I'm hoping I do though... I'm really hoping I do.
 

deirdre

Senior Member.
Sorry, I don't know what this means. I have read it through and I glean that it's asking me something but I don't know what. I was wondering what happened to "Come out with your hands up". He was unarmed and incapable of injuring any of them. In the police scanner video there is a big black tank with a metal arm poking around near the boat. So I don't think anyone was really in harm's way. So what happened to "come out with your hands up!" and then perhaps followed by "Alright, you haven't come out so in 10 seconds we are going to open fire on you in there and turn that boat you are in into swiss cheese." Maybe all of this was said but I haven't heard any audio to that effect yet. I'm hoping I do though... I'm really hoping I do.
? what are you talking about?
 

curtispenner

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Banned
Do you think it was someone else shooting and throwing bombs with his brother the previous evening then? Why?
I think he is entitled to a fair trial and is innocent until proven guilty. I've said this already. Do you think he should have been executed on site?
 

NoParty

Senior Member.
Did you watch that video? It goes on for 60 seconds Pete. It sounds like there are at least fifteen people emptying at least three clips each at this kid. It goes on and on and on and on...

If your argument is that something was inappropriate because the gunfire "goes on for 60 seconds"
why would you post
a video that features gunfire only from :26 to :38 ? (~13 seconds, for the math-phobic)
 

curtispenner

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? what are you talking about?
I am talking about the arrest of this young man. In this video there is a big black armored vehicle poking around near the boat. I think the fellows in this armoured vehicle were safe, and that the police did not need to fire hundreds of rounds at this unarmed young man.
 

Pete Tar

Senior Member.
The last they had seen he was in possession of, and using, firearms and explosives.

They had no way of knowing he was unarmed and would be right to assume he was given previous interactions with him.
 

curtispenner

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If your argument is that something was inappropriate because the gunfire "goes on for 60 seconds"
why would you post
a video that features gunfire only from :26 to :38 ? (~13 seconds, for the math-phobic)
Ah...I thought those flashing lights were muzzle flashes and that the window was closed or something so we couldn't hear the gunfire. On seeing it again it is the flashing lights of a vehicle. Well that's a bit better. Still obscene...but at least it's only a quarter as obscene :p
 

deirdre

Senior Member.
I am talking about the arrest of this young man. In this video there is a big black armored vehicle poking around near the boat. I think the fellows in this armoured vehicle were safe, and that the police did not need to fire hundreds of rounds at this unarmed young man.
im scrolling but my ADD is kicking in. can you give me a time frame to watch?
 

curtispenner

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The last they had seen he was in possession of, and using, firearms and explosives.

They had no way of knowing he was unarmed and would be right to assume he was given previous interactions with him.
He is alleged to have used explosives.

This was the firefight from the previous day or whenever it was. Again it seems it wasn't much of a fight. It's hard to make out the audio but I think they repeatedly say "chill out" and "we didn't do it" while getting shot at.

I have no idea whether these two were guilty or not. But they were/are entitled to due process and did not receive it.

Transcript:

- 24 seconds: “chill out”
- 26 seconds: “chill out”, “chill out”
- 31 seconds: “chill out”
- 37 seconds: “we didnt do it”
- 41 seconds: “we didnt do it”
- 45 seconds: “we didnt do it”
- 1 minute 9 seconds: “hey officer”
 

Pete Tar

Senior Member.
Isn't he in the process of receiving due process?
He's getting a trial and he gets to explain why he should be found not guilty.

Not a fan of the boat shooting or anything, but it's not that much of a stretch to see why. Things were pretty much at fever pitch on their end, he was just tired and had had enough by that time.
 

NoParty

Senior Member.
He is alleged to have used explosives.

This was the firefight from the previous day or whenever it was. Again it seems it wasn't much of a fight. It's hard to make out the audio but I think they repeatedly say "chill out" and "we didn't do it" while getting shot at.

I have no idea whether these two were guilty or not. But they were/are entitled to due process and did not receive it.

Screen Shot 2014-02-24 at 11.59.16 PM.png
 

curtispenner

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Banned
im scrolling but my ADD is kicking in. can you give me a time frame to watch?
The images of the tank looking vehicle with the metal the arm on it are from 0:00 to 0:12. It looks like they are using the metal arm to probe or open the boat cover. The bottom line is that they seem well protected in the armoured vehicle.
 

deirdre

Senior Member.
The images of the tank looking vehicle with the metal the arm on it are from 0:00 to 0:12. It looks like they are using the metal arm to probe or open the boat cover. The bottom line is that they seem well protected in the armoured vehicle.
yea that not helping me se e the gunfire
 

curtispenner

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yea that not helping me se e the gunfire
Ah...no the gunfire is in the previous video. Here it is again. I originally thought that there was gunfire from the beginning on and that the flashing lights were muzzle flashes...but that's blinking car lights. The gunfire starts at 0:26

 

curtispenner

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@curtispenner what do you mean by the blue balloon "put in"? you lost me there
In this picture it looks like an air pump is being surgically inserted into his throat.



Which would obviously leave a wound in his throat and render him unable to speak. It seems strange. Is cutting people's throats open the normal first course of action if they collapse? What about just feeding a tube down his throat? Was he asphyxiating on something? Perhaps drowning in his own blood from the neck wound? I don't know...but it seemed odd to me to see that picture of him walking out without a throat wound and the next minute him getting what appears to be a tracheotomy. And this after the whole wild west gunfire fiasco...I'd suspect the neck injury was from the barrage of bullets somehow. Ocham's razor implies it, given the extent of the shooting.
 

deirdre

Senior Member.
In this picture it looks like an air pump is being surgically inserted into his throat.



Which would obviously leave a wound in his throat and render him unable to speak. It seems strange. Is cutting people's throats open the normal first course of action if they collapse? What about just feeding a tube down his throat? Was he asphyxiating on something? Perhaps drowning in his own blood from the neck wound? I don't know...but it seemed odd to me to see that picture of him walking out without a throat wound and the next minute him getting what appears to be a tracheotomy. And this after the whole wild west gunfire fiasco...I'd suspect the neck injury was from the barrage of bullets somehow. Ocham's razor implies it, given the extent of the shooting.
I'm not seeing that. but then its late for me.
 

curtispenner

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Banned
I'm not seeing that. but then its late for me.
Above that thing that looks like a blue bottle in the picture I just posted you can see what looks like his chin stubble. So that means that the bottle is being directed directly into his throat rather than down his mouth. If it was going down his mouth you wouldn't see his chin above the action end of the bottle thing...which I'm pretty sure is a blue bag that you would squeeze with your hands to pump air after performing a tracheotomy. No? If it isn't one of those air pump things guys what is that blue bag thing? Again sorry for not knowing any medical lingo. I just think I recognize it from "House" :p

There's another image of the throat stuff at the 3:00 mark of the black armoured vehicle video. It's from a bit further back.

Anyhow, I'm gonna hit the hay. But I found this whole scene very odd. First they unload ridiculous amounts of ammo at him and then it appears they cut into his throat after he surrenders.

It seems to me that the police did a shitty all round job on this arrest, as a best case.
 
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Pete Tar

Senior Member.
You are implying they deliberately wounded his throat while he was on the ground, rather than they were administering to a an already present wound?

The throat wound was apparently from shrapnel.
 

curtispenner

Banned
Banned
Pete,

You keep asking questions implying I am the fool while demonstrating only ignorance. You stated he had "used deadly force in the previous night's escapade." This was false.

You were also unaware that he lacked of weapon despite this having already been proven in this thread and being common knowledge for months. So presumably you would have been saying "the throat wound was from a self inflicted gunshot wound" yesterday.

Quit parading ignorance while acting simultaniously condescending and asking leading garbage questions intended to frame me in a conspiratorial light. I've only highlighted facts here. What have you added?
 

Pete Tar

Senior Member.
You stated he had "used deadly force in the previous night's escapade." This was false.
Show it.

No, no deadly force here. Or when the security guard was murdered.

Asking for a confirmation on the his unarmed status is 'parading ignorance'? Get over yourself.

If having your assumptions about the situation questioned makes you feel condescended to and foolish, that's your problem. Don't project.
 
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NoParty

Senior Member.
Pete,

You keep asking questions implying I am the fool while demonstrating only ignorance. You stated he had "used deadly force in the previous night's escapade." This was false.

You were also unaware that he lacked of weapon despite this having already been proven in this thread and being common knowledge for months. So presumably you would have been saying "the throat wound was from a self inflicted gunshot wound" yesterday.

Quit parading ignorance while acting simultaniously condescending and asking leading garbage questions intended to frame me in a conspiratorial light. I've only highlighted facts here. What have you added?
Have we already forgotten the made up stuff? (like your outrage over the mythical "...literal orgy…" of an astounding 60 [-47] seconds of gunfire?)

No one is saying you're "a fool" but your looseness with the facts doesn't speak well. Suggesting that Dzhokar shouldn't have been treated as
dangerous, or saying you have zero idea (given his own post-rampage statements) if he's guilty suggests that you aren't objectively weighing the facts that are out there
 

Pete Tar

Senior Member.
Damnit, I'm still annoyed by this 'parading ignorance' comment.

Parading ignorance would be actively proclaiming a provably wrongful version of events as the truth, or sticking to details that have been shown wrong, such as your bizarre 'there was no deadly force'.
Asking for confirmation of a simple fact is not parading ignorance, it is seeking to end it.
Oh look at me parading my ignorance because I asked for more detail on something!
Putz.

And I seem to have incurred your displeasure because I asked if you're suggesting they wounded his throat on the ground rather than they were administering to a wound you don't happen to see - as if getting you to follow through with your chain of logic or state what it is you're suggesting offends you.
If that is not what you're saying, then you can say that, that's why I asked!
 

Balance

Senior Member.
In this picture it looks like an air pump is being surgically inserted into his throat.

The hand is holding the airway mask to our right of the chin, the throat is our left of the chin.

Another officer appears to be holding a bandage to the left side of the neck, presumably applying compression though I see no blood so can't be sure

Damn, sorry for the huge pic, don't know how to fix that
 
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cloudspotter

Senior Member.
Above that thing that looks like a blue bottle in the picture I just posted you can see what looks like his chin stubble. So that means that the bottle is being directed directly into his throat rather than down his mouth.

So if you look up and left from the chin stubble, what are we seeing there? His face?
 

Bill

Senior Member.
In this picture it looks like an air pump is being surgically inserted into his throat.



Which would obviously leave a wound in his throat and render him unable to speak. It seems strange. Is cutting people's throats open the normal first course of action if they collapse? What about just feeding a tube down his throat? Was he asphyxiating on something? Perhaps drowning in his own blood from the neck wound? I don't know...but it seemed odd to me to see that picture of him walking out without a throat wound and the next minute him getting what appears to be a tracheotomy. And this after the whole wild west gunfire fiasco...I'd suspect the neck injury was from the barrage of bullets somehow. Ocham's razor implies it, given the extent of the shooting.
You seem to be misreading this picture. Nothing is being inserted in the throat. The mask for the balloon ventilator (I don't know the exact name) has been placed over his nose and mouth. The balloon that is pointed towards the top of his head and can be used to pump air if needed. The person holding the mask is positioned at the top of his head.
Edit: Found it. Its called a Bag Valve Mask (BVM). They are required to use it at all levels of sedation. A sample of it can be seen here:
https://www.sedationresource.com/cgi-bin/commerce.cgi?search=action&category=BVMK
upload_2014-2-25_6-25-59.png
 
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NoParty

Senior Member.
But clearly the point is made: Government hacks did some kind of shady, unethical procedure
on the framed Mr. Tsarnaev' neck, depriving him of speech (or maybe even life!) such that his story
of innocence would be forever silenced. The end.
 
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Melbury's Brick

Senior Member.
Above that thing that looks like a blue bottle in the picture I just posted you can see what looks like his chin stubble. So that means that the bottle is being directed directly into his throat rather than down his mouth.
Nothing is being inserted into his throat. the bottle, as others have pointed out, is attached to the mask that is quite clearly being held in place over his mouth and nose.

I think he is entitled to a fair trial and is innocent until proven guilty. I've said this already. Do you think he should have been executed on site?
No one thinks he " should have been executed on site", and he wasn't. If that had been the goal the opportunity was mysteriously ignored. In fact the reverse is true. As soon as it was possible they took action to save his life.
He is going to get his trial and his brother may have survived to be tried as well if someone hadn't mown him down with a large motor vehicle.
 

curtispenner

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Banned
You seem to be misreading this picture. Nothing is being inserted in the throat. The mask for the balloon ventilator (I don't know the exact name) has been placed over his nose and mouth. The balloon that is pointed towards the top of his head and can be used to pump air if needed. The person holding the mask is positioned at the top of his head.
Edit: Found it. Its called a Bag Valve Mask (BVM). They are required to use it at all levels of sedation. A sample of it can be seen here:
Ahhh! That makes much more sense! Well I feel stupid about the mask. I had fixed a "feet to the right" perspective in my head because of the other photo at the 3 minute mark in the 6 minute youtube vid above. I keep referring to it rather than posting it because I don't know how to upload media to this site and I can't find that photo anywhere online...

But yes this makes much more sense that the balloon is positioned above his face rather than above his chest. In "House" the balloon is always above the chest so you can see the person who is being respirated's face :p
 

Jason

Senior Member
In this picture it looks like an air pump is being surgically inserted into his throat.



Which would obviously leave a wound in his throat and render him unable to speak. It seems strange. Is cutting people's throats open the normal first course of action if they collapse? What about just feeding a tube down his throat? Was he asphyxiating on something? Perhaps drowning in his own blood from the neck wound? I don't know...but it seemed odd to me to see that picture of him walking out without a throat wound and the next minute him getting what appears to be a tracheotomy. And this after the whole wild west gunfire fiasco...I'd suspect the neck injury was from the barrage of bullets somehow. Ocham's razor implies it, given the extent of the shooting.
First of all a tracheotomy would look totally different. We can see the medic holding a guaze pad to the left of his trachea. Its actually closer to his carotid artery than his trachea. Here is an example of how a tracheotomy is performed in wiki; http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tracheotomy

So we can clearly see that this isn't a tracheotomy. Plus we don't see the tube coming out of his trachea, which they generally tape after putting it in. I can see the bag valve mask the other emt is holding over his mouth to assist him with breathing. If he had a tracheotomy performed, the air would be entering that tube and not his mouth. They would connect the bag to the stoma at the trachea to form a tight seal to perfrom CPR if he wasn't breathing.
 

curtispenner

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You stated he had "used deadly force in the previous night's escapade." This was false.
Show it.
I did Pete, in post 52 in direct response to your allegation that he had fired on police the prior night. There is video of him not doing that, but rather pleading with them while he is being shot at.

The media originally reported a shoot-out the prior night, so I can understand where you came to that errant conclusion. But the best video evidence of the shoot-out I can find implies it did not happen, and rather that it was only the police doing the shooting. Someone recorded it and you can only hear gunfire from the police towards the brothers as they say "chill out" and "we didn't do it" repeatedly. There is only one type of gun that I hear. It sounds like the same gun going off again and again, and not two different guns. It is always an identical sound. i.e. from one gun. And I don't think someone would be yelling "chill out! Chill out!" if they were actively shooting at the police.

It seems to me that a peaceful arrest of both could likely have been made that prior night.

 

ColtCabana

Senior Member
I did Pete, in post 52 in direct response to your allegation that he had fired on police the prior night. There is video of him not doing that, but rather pleading with them while he is being shot at.

The media originally reported a shoot-out the prior night, so I can understand where you came to that errant conclusion. But the best video evidence of the shoot-out I can find implies it did not happen, and rather that it was only the police doing the shooting. Someone recorded it and you can only hear gunfire from the police towards the brothers as they say "chill out" and "we didn't do it" repeatedly. There is only one type of gun that I hear. It sounds like the same gun going off again and again, and not two different guns. It is always an identical sound. i.e. from one gun. And I don't think someone would be yelling "chill out! Chill out!" if they were actively shooting at the police.

It seems to me that a peaceful arrest of both could likely have been made that prior night.


One of my close friends lives in Watertown, very close to the incident here. He's seen videos like this and claims that a lot of gunfire, back and forth, was going on that night, especially right before this incident. He knows for a fact that this was it because he was close enough to hear the yelling afterwards. He says this is the tail end of it.
 

Soulfly

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Banned
If cops always have to go by innocent until proven guilty, then are they supposed to arrest people they feel are innocent? o_O

Since the courts decide innocence or guilt then cops would be in a catch 22 if they had to use the logic of innocent until proven guilty. They follow probable cause or reasonable suspicion. I'm sure there is a legal term.
 
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deirdre

Senior Member.
I did Pete, in post 52 in direct response to your allegation that he had fired on police the prior night. There is video of him not doing that, but rather pleading with them while he is being shot at.

The media originally reported a shoot-out the prior night, so I can understand where you came to that errant conclusion. But the best video evidence of the shoot-out I can find implies it did not happen, and rather that it was only the police doing the shooting. Someone recorded it and you can only hear gunfire from the police towards the brothers as they say "chill out" and "we didn't do it" repeatedly. There is only one type of gun that I hear. It sounds like the same gun going off again and again, and not two different guns. It is always an identical sound. i.e. from one gun. And I don't think someone would be yelling "chill out! Chill out!" if they were actively shooting at the police.

It seems to me that a peaceful arrest of both could likely have been made that prior night.
I bet a peaceful arrest could have been made too if they had said "don't shoot. we're coming out. we surrender". you know, like normal people would have done.
 

curtispenner

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I bet a peaceful arrest could have been made too if they had said "don't shoot. we're coming out. we surrender". you know, like normal people would have done.
Were they given this chance? Everything police related I have seen re: the Boston Bombing has been excessive. I originally heard reports that the Tsarnaev's had shot MBTA Officer Richard Donohue. But then the Boston Globe later reported that this shooting had been friendly fire according to eye witnesses, and said there was two other accidental shootings during the apprehension.

Here is the Boston Globe article:
http://www.bostonglobe.com/metro/20...iendly-fire/kIv9CYo0oVGBC3DlhFjelL/story.html

One of my close friends lives in Watertown, very close to the incident here. He's seen videos like this and claims that a lot of gunfire, back and forth, was going on that night, especially right before this incident. He knows for a fact that this was it because he was close enough to hear the yelling afterwards. He says this is the tail end of it.

The below interview link is of an eye witness said on radio that it sounded like the gunfire was only from the police. She goes on to say that it wasn't Tsarnaev but rather the police that ran over the older brother with an SUV and then shot him.

http://www.liveleak.com/ll_embed?f=6f11c07b40e2

I don't know anything about what happened at the 7/11 robbery and what came down with the MIT officer. I think his name was Collier.

What I do know is that basically every aspect of this thing that I've looked at has involved excessive use of force and nearly delirious behaviour on the part of the police force. Everything they did was totally over the top. All of the video I've seen of actual "gunfights" confirms this.

My belief is that the second brother was critically wounded directly as a result of being repeatedly shot while unarmed, and that this, plus him possibly having been assaulted after surrendering, necessitated the breathing stuff, rather than any self inflicted injuries or shrapnel. It seems to fit with all of the video and eye witness testimony.
 
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