Dzhokar Tsarnaev's Mysterious Throat Wound

curtispenner

Banned
Banned
Plus the medical examiner said that Tamerlan was neither dragged nor run over.
No he didn't. Quote him.

Then the defense team should have to problem getting him acquitted, why don't we all just wait for the trial and find out?
It is pretty conclusive that the police lied in their reports about Dzhokar running over Tamerlan and killing him.

I have no idea whether the one still alive is innocent or guilty of the bombing. My issue is that he has been treated as guilty and shot at by police even though he was unarmed, leading to the throat injury we have confirmed to have been from a bullet. And then the question of how long the police waited before opening fire on him led us here, to the yellow brick road. And now the Strawman and the Lion and the Tin Man will link arms and hop off down the road to see the wizard. The wonderful wizard of Oz! I think I will click the heels of my shoes together three times and go back to Kansas for now. I'll return to Oz to post an update during the trial :)

I think that exercise you fellas all did in determining your political compass was interesting in that nearly all of your dots were in the same place. Maybe the outliers were/are those who I keep seeing marked as "banned" in various threads. Did the banned participants hold views different than your own? I'm wondering if you deprived your group of completeness in sending them off? Kind of an excercise in affirmative confirmation bias.
 

Mick West

Administrator
Staff member
It is pretty conclusive that the police lied in their reports about Dzhokar running over Tamerlan and killing him.

No it's not. Really, you are reaching here. What report says he was killed by being run over? What report says he was run over in a way that would leave mayor injuries?
 

curtispenner

Banned
Banned
Yuck. You need to warn people before linking to things like this. For all, this is the same gruesome photo I accidentally linked to earlier before removing that link, and warning everyone where they could find it but that it is disturbing. This was the photo linked in the page discussing the complete lack evidence of tire tracks or evidence of him being dragged. You know...the evidence that the medical examiner said was not there. Someone has stretched open that gash on his left for this shot. Very nasty stuff. Totally disgusting. Anyhow, Mr. Strawman, have a great day :)
 

Soulfly

Banned
Banned
Yuck. You need to warn people before linking to things like this. For all, this is the same gruesome photo I accidentally linked to earlier before removing that link, and warning everyone where they could find it but that it is disturbing. This was the photo linked in the page discussing the complete lack evidence of tire tracks or evidence of him being dragged. You know...the evidence that the medical examiner said was not there. Someone has stretched open that gash on his left for this shot. Very nasty stuff. Totally disgusting. Anyhow, Mr. Strawman, have a great day :)
How did he get those injuries then?

Edit to add... pretty easy to figure out what was being linked, sorry you only see what you want to see.
 

Pete Tar

Senior Member.
Being run over and dragged by a car doesn't have to leave tyre marks. You don't even have to get the tyres over the body to do that damage. Presumably it was done by the underside of the car.

 

Melbury's Brick

Senior Member.
It is pretty conclusive that the police lied in their reports about Dzhokar running over Tamerlan and killing him.

I have no idea whether the one still alive is innocent or guilty of the bombing. My issue is that he has been treated as guilty and shot at by police even though he was unarmed, leading to the throat injury we have confirmed to have been from a bullet. And then the question of how long the police waited before opening fire on him led us here, to the yellow brick road. And now the Strawman and the Lion and the Tin Man will link arms and hop off down the road to see the wizard. The wonderful wizard of Oz! I think I will click the heels of my shoes together three times and go back to Kansas for now. I'll return to Oz to post an update during the trial :)

I think that exercise you fellas all did in determining your political compass was interesting in that nearly all of your dots were in the same place. Maybe the outliers were/are those who I keep seeing marked as "banned" in various threads. Did the banned participants hold views different than your own? I'm wondering if you deprived your group of completeness in sending them off? Kind of an excercise in affirmative confirmation bias.


“I certainly did not see any tire marks or the usual things we see with someone run over by a car"
Interpreting this to mean he wasn't run over by a car is a leap of judgement. One point is that he may not have come into contact with the wheels of the vehicle.

My issue is that he has been treated as guilty and shot at by police even though he was unarmed

He was shot at by police because he was behaving like a dangerous criminal and had earlier thrown explosive devices at them.

http://www.bostonglobe.com/metro/20...r-shoot-out/lDQWKy5PjyUdmwpYIRhiPJ/story.html

I'm dissapointed really CP. You painted such a rosy picture of this "kid" that I was hoping he might be acquitted and marry my daughter!
 

Pete Tar

Senior Member.
curtispenner said: ↑
"My issue is that he has been treated as guilty and shot at by police even though he was unarmed"
He was shot at by police because he was behaving like a dangerous criminal and had earlier thrown explosive devices at them.
How this point continues to elude you CP is mind-boggling.
 

curtispenner

Banned
Banned
One point is that he may not have come into contact with the wheels of the vehicle.
This would not be feasible given Katzinberg's observation that he sideswiped the passenger side of the car on the right, followed by the driver side of the car on the left. And even if his undercarriage had indeed hooked itself onto Tamerlan and dragged him twenty feet as is being suggested here, this would leave road rash that the medical examiner did not find any proof of.

Y'all shouldn't call yourselves skeptics. It seems I'm the only one here :p

 

Hama Neggs

Senior Member.
This would not be feasible given Katzinberg's observation that he sideswiped the passenger side of the car on the right, followed by the driver side of the car on the left. And even if his undercarriage had indeed hooked itself onto Tamerlan and dragged him twenty feet as is being suggested here, this would leave road rash that the medical examiner did not find any proof of.

Y'all shouldn't call yourselves skeptics. It seems I'm the only one here :p


Seems to me that in order to get between those 2 parked vehicles without stopping he would have had to swerve to the left and take a path pretty much centered over what is purported to be his brother in that pic.
 

curtispenner

Banned
Banned
He was shot at by police because he was behaving like a dangerous criminal and had earlier thrown explosive devices at them. How this point continues to elude you CP is mind-boggling.
This point doesn't elude me, nor did it elude the police. Thus the armoured tank and remote arm. The police had the "explosive" factor well in hand. What was not well in hand was any notion of restraint. This fellow was needlessly assaulted. His older brother got it worse I suppose, being he's dead. I don't know why the police weren't honest about the cause of death. There was eye witnesses saying he was tossing improvised explosives at them. This certainly gave them, in the first encounter, a very good rationale in shooting to kill. So why blame the death on the younger brother? The truth would have done just fine.
 

curtispenner

Banned
Banned
Seems to me that in order to get between those 2 parked vehicles without stopping he would have had to swerve to the left and take a path pretty much centered over what is purported to be his brother in that pic.
If you take the the distance from headlight to headlight on the right and front vehicle, there is easily that much space again to the left of it before Tamerlan. And then the Mercedes needed to get even further right to sideswipe the other vehicle on the driver side. So how was he able to both run over his brother and sideswipe the vehicle on the right, before then sideswiping the vehicle on the left? That would be some interesting driving...

Again, there is at least the width of a set of headlights between Tamerlan and the right set of headlights up in front. Either he completely cleared Tamerlan or his wheels rolled over him, which is discounted in the medical examiner's testimony. There isn't any way for the undercarriage to roll over Tamerlan and for the other conditions to also be true.

Also, in the police reports, they claim that one of them was dragging Tamerlan off the road, so if anything Tamerlan moved further left during the next few seconds.
 

curtispenner

Banned
Banned
Do you believe Tamerlan was needlessly assaulted?
No. He was obviously a threat to the the police with the explosives etc. They didn't need to lie about what happened. If someone was throwing pipe bombs at me, I'd happily hit him with my car too. Perhaps the subsequent shooting was not completely necessary...but I think the adrenaline and heat of the moment is a good enough excuse given the circumstances.

Are you suggesting he was fired on to protect a tank?
I am suggesting that there was no good reason to fire on Dzhokar. The original suggestion that there was a firefight went up in smoke with the admission that he was completely unarmed. The tank and remote arm and helicopter were sufficient to protect the police and determine the level of risk as negligable

***I edited my response to Trigger Hippie after seeing "Tamerlan" in his question. I originally answered thinking that Trigger Hippie was asking about Dzhokar....so I posted a response about the black tank and pipe bombs. The answer now fits the question.***
 
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Hama Neggs

Senior Member.
If you take the the distance from headlight to headlight on the right and front vehicle, there is easily that much space again to the left of it before Tamerlan. And then the Mercedes needed to get even further right to sideswipe the other vehicle on the driver side. So how was he able to both run over his brother and sideswipe the vehicle on the right, before then sideswiping the vehicle on the left? That would be some interesting driving...

Again, there is at least the width of a set of headlights between Tamerlan and the right set of headlights up in front. Either he completely cleared Tamerlan or his wheels rolled over him, which is discounted in the medical examiner's testimony. There isn't any way for the undercarriage to roll over Tamerlan and for the other conditions to also be true.

Also, in the police reports, they claim that one of them was dragging Tamerlan off the road, so if anything Tamerlan moved further left during the next few seconds.

I think you didn't read what I said. It's the very need to get "even further right" before reaching the 2nd vehicle that led to my observation. He couldn't have gotten "further right" in the space between the 2 vehicles without being already pointed to the right at the point where his brother is lying. You are saying that he CAN'T have swerved to the left to better pass between the two vehicles? Why not?
 

Balance

Senior Member.
I am suggesting that there was no good reason to fire on him.

Perhaps it would help if you clarified your thoughts before posting? You seem to be using a shotgun approach, where as sniper-mode might be less cluttereful (if you'll excuse the analogy)
 

Hama Neggs

Senior Member.
Also, in the police reports, they claim that one of them was dragging Tamerlan off the road, so if anything Tamerlan moved further left during the next few seconds.

You're saying that the police may have dragged that object/body between the time that photo was taken and the moment the car reached the object/body? Really? What would that have been, maybe 2 seconds at the most?
 

Hama Neggs

Senior Member.
This would not be feasible given Katzinberg's observation that he sideswiped the passenger side of the car on the right, followed by the driver side of the car on the left. And even if his undercarriage had indeed hooked itself onto Tamerlan and dragged him twenty feet as is being suggested here, this would leave road rash that the medical examiner did not find any proof of.

Y'all shouldn't call yourselves skeptics. It seems I'm the only one here :p


Looks to be aimed right dead-center at his brother in this shot, if that's what that object is.
 

Trigger Hippie

Senior Member.
http://www.scribd.com/doc/140654552/Tamerlan-Tsarnaev-Death-Certificate

This was also mentioned in an NY Times article that I had linked to on the previous page.

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/05/05/u...-of-gunshot-wounds-and-blunt-trauma.html?_r=0

@curtispenner any comment on the death certificate?
 

MikeC

Closed Account
You think the big black tank was in real danger from a pipe bomb?

The "big black tank" can't actually arrest anyone, nor investigate anything, nor can anyone INSIDE a "big black tank" - all those things require people to get out of it - and who are most certainly in real danger from a pipe bomb.
 

Josh Heuer

Active Member
This was taken from the Wiki article on the brothers:
(http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dzhokhar_and_Tamerlan_Tsarnaev)


Tamerlan was 'struck and dragged by a vehicle', there's no doubt about that. Whether it was police or his younger brother is the point that remains unclear, and to be honest, it seems like a rather insignificant detail in the scope of these events.

(Edited to fix some tag issues)
 
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Pete Tar

Senior Member.
Well it's unlikely they had him cuffed on the ground and then ran him over. As the claim is he was run over after that point, it's hard to see how it was the cops who did it.
There was an attempt to ram the brothers with a police car before that.

The police chief's idea that the brother backed over him certainly seems wrong.

Watertown police chief: older brother was alive-being cuffed on the ground. Younger brother then backed over him, killing him.
— Ari Fleischer (@AriFleischer) April 20, 2013

And he *may* have still been alive when he got to the hospital.
 

deirdre

Senior Member.
Well it's unlikely they had him cuffed on the ground and then ran him over. As the claim is he was run over after that point, it's hard to see how it was the cops who did it.
There was an attempt to ram the brothers with a police car before that.

The police chief's idea that the brother backed over him certainly seems wrong.

Watertown police chief: older brother was alive-being cuffed on the ground. Younger brother then backed over him, killing him.
— Ari Fleischer (@AriFleischer) April 20, 2013

And he *may* have still been alive when he got to the hospital.
if youre laying on the ground and end up dragged by a car.. wouldn't the car have to run over you first to snag you? how do you get attached to a car if the car didn't go over you?
 

NoParty

Senior Member.
CP, I'm not one to suggest that you formed a conclusion, and then sorted, eliminated and selected
"facts" to support the idea that police misbehaved here…but as I sort through your 37 (often quite lengthy) posts
on this Dzhokar thread in the last 18 hours, I'm wondering: is there any aspect of this event in which you feel
as charitable towards the position of law enforcement as you do to that of the alleged terrorists?
 

MikeC

Closed Account
if youre laying on the ground and end up dragged by a car.. wouldn't the car have to run over you first to snag you? how do you get attached to a car if the car didn't go over you?

There are usually substantial overhangs at the front and rear of large cars that have miscellaneous bits and pieces hanging underneath, and also there is considerable room between the wheels - the underside of the car is strewn with bumpers, exhaust pipes, tow hooks, suspension, transmission and steering components.

So if by "run over" you mean the wheels actually roll over part of you - I can see many scenarios where you can be caught by bits of the car without actually being "run over".
 

deirdre

Senior Member.
So if by "run over" you mean the wheels actually roll over part of you - I can see many scenarios where you can be caught by bits of the car without actually being "run over".

I didn't seem to say otherwise?
i only quoted you to preface the topic..i didn't want to go searching through the thread again to find a Curtis reference ; )


that's my point. if i was on scene i would describe it (a man getting snagged and dragged) as he backed over his brother. I think maybe the police chief heard this and assumed backed over meant 'run over with tires'. Mostly im trying to get a point across to Curtis.

edit:sorry i have a ghost in my quote function
 

Pete Tar

Senior Member.
But backed over is wrong if that photo of the scene is pre-car-hit, as he is driving forward.
But yeah, the chief's comment is just verbal shorthand, not a detailed report.
 

Soulfly

Banned
Banned
You think the big black tank was in real danger from a pipe bomb?
If you could fit the whole of the surrounding areas residents inside then I would agree with your assessment, but since you can't then the people who lived on that street sure as hell were in danger from pipe bombs.
 

Jason

Senior Member
It is already proven in admissions and medical evidence which corroborate eye witness testimony. But here is some more proof for the final nail in the coffin on the police re: Tamerlan.

This is a blog entry by a Mr. Andrew Kitzenberg who captured elements of the first stand-off on camera. His blog entry is definitely worth a look. It describes the stand-off and the aftermath. Evidently a stray bullet went through their apartment. Thank goodness his room-mate wasn't sitting in their desk chair. There is a bullet hole clean through their office wall and then through the middle of the chair!

http://www.getonhand.com/blogs/news/7743337-boston-bombing-suspect-shootout-pictures

Katzinberg corroborates Dzhokar not hitting Tamerlan. This is what he had to say on the escape:


If Dzhokar sideswiped the vehicle on the right, and then sideswiped the vehicle on the left, it doesn't seem possible for him to also have run over Tamerlan. It also seems like a relevant detail to exclude from the blog. Especially considering that Katzinberg knows he was looking at Tamerlan and circled him for posterity.

The police lied about Tamerlan. We may as not mince words about it.

It seems the police were being truthful regarding the use of IED's in the manhunt. There isn't good pictures of IED's being used but there is a pretty clear picture of the aftermath of one:



There also appears to be some supporting evidence for the only unverified claim of the radio caller, namely [2) The police hit Tamerlan with a large black vehicle].

Here is a large black police vehicle that Mr. Katzinberg photographed and described as having arrived at the beginning of the confrontation:



Evidently this large black vehicle had its windows shot out, so there certainly appears to have been a rather heated confrontation. But the police should have come clean up front. This taints all of their testimony.
If you take the the distance from headlight to headlight on the right and front vehicle, there is easily that much space again to the left of it before Tamerlan. And then the Mercedes needed to get even further right to sideswipe the other vehicle on the driver side. So how was he able to both run over his brother and sideswipe the vehicle on the right, before then sideswiping the vehicle on the left? That would be some interesting driving...

Again, there is at least the width of a set of headlights between Tamerlan and the right set of headlights up in front. Either he completely cleared Tamerlan or his wheels rolled over him, which is discounted in the medical examiner's testimony. There isn't any way for the undercarriage to roll over Tamerlan and for the other conditions to also be true.

Also, in the police reports, they claim that one of them was dragging Tamerlan off the road, so if anything Tamerlan moved further left during the next few seconds.
First of all this blog you cited is full of baloney. Why aren't there any time stamps with these photos since he's using a Iphone5. Wouldn't you have included the time to make your case? Why didn't he get the explosion that was allegedly in front of his house?
 
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