Everybody here is on DMT as we speak. But yeah, sure. Disclaimer: nobody is suggesting anybody do DMT. I didn't realize the discussion meant I was "pushing drugs" to people, either. No idea what the "physical fallout" is, but whatever. Hey adults, don't go out and do the most potent psychedelic because some alien guy told you about it. IT AIN'T WORTH IT!
What would you consider evidence? I've already listed a million different aspects of it that differentiate it from others. And I have people who've never done either saying, "nuh-uh, it's similar to this other thing I've Googled apparently" as I'm telling you it isn't. There are entire books written on it if you'd like to read up on how things are different. But if your only frame of reference for different is the molecular structure, I don't know what else I can reference?
I provided evidence, with a link, that says your statement is incorrect. You haven't provided anything to support your statement. The Posting Guidelines require it
What? I was never "pushing drugs" on anyone and I never once harped on "why" you're looking at the data? I just don't understand what the % of times people have alien experiences has anything to do with anything.
I provided evidence, with a link, that says your statement is incorrect. You haven't provided anything to support your statement. The Posting Guidelines require it
You absolutely did not provide evidence of that. You linked a drug facts page that shows something I've already mentioned (although it incorrectly implies the prodrug psilocybin is the active compound, when it's psilocin, the DMT analog that your liver converts psilocybin into).
A molecule being chemically structured similarly to another does not mean they don't have meaningful differences in the experience, which is what we're discussing. Of course when you're discussing tryptamines, they're going to be structurally similar; they all have a similar skeleton. This is irrelevant. Both DMT and melatonin share this same tryptamine skeleton, but obviously deliver vastly different experiences when ingested.
Structurally, oxygen (O2) and ozone (O3) are closer to one another than DMT and psilocybin. I trust you don't need convincing at how completely different you'll feel when breathing in one over the other?
The experience is the primary example of what makes it different. It being endogenously produced in us also makes it unique. I have provided multiple sourced external quotes that illustrate just how different DMT is from other hallucinogens. I guess I can't force any of you to read them, though. It feels like I'm chatting with robots looking to debunk anything and everything at the expense of a normal discussion. "GIVE ME SOURCED PROOF OF WHAT 'HYPERSACE' REFERS TO"
The same people "debunking" everything I'm saying have referenced doing acid and mushrooms earlier in life. I've yet to hear them describe any experience similar to DMT as commonplace. This discussion would be like me demanding evidence that a plane and a helicopter are different. Your "evidence" that says my statement is incorrect would be like me linking a website stating, "Both a helicopter and plane are capable of flight." You can draw parallels between many things, but that doesn't mean they aren't radically different in other ways.
A "standard" dose of Psilocybe cubensis can be like strapping on a jetpack. A visit to Hyperspace is like traveling spacetime through wormholes or something. They're different experiences. :-/
Yeah, and the answer makes no sense to me. I guess to warn MB who might be influenced to try that they're not 100% going to meet entities? Ok, sure. Sounds good.
Anyway, DMT experiences with "aliens" and "mantids" are extremely similar to abduction stories. That's all I wanted to convey. So perhaps there's a connection there. There are enough written accounts scattered across the web to correlate this connection, many of which I've provided in accordance to MB's policies. Cheers, folks.
You absolutely did not provide evidence of that. You linked a drug facts page that shows something I've already mentioned (although it incorrectly implies the prodrug psilocybin is the active compound, when it's psilocin, the DMT analog that your liver converts psilocybin into).
Okay, maybe it'd be better to say that you are implying that. Otherwise, what is the point of thinking that is evidence against anything and bolding the entire section? What even is the purpose of this exchange? How do you think a barebones "drugs are bad" government website saying a chemical structure is like another is evidence refuting what I said? It seems more like you're sticking to a contrarian stance just for the sake of being contrarian. Why aren't you engaging with the evidence I posted that highlights just how radically different they are?
I have provided more than enough evidence on how DMT is different from other psychedelics, including it's endogenous nature in our species. It's also widespread among mammals and tons of plants. The experience is what is novel and unique, which you're somehow overriding/ignoring because of chemical structure? Why? Again, O2 and O3 are more similar than n,n-DMT and psilocin, but I highly doubt you'd make a stink about someone saying they are vastly different in experience after human ingestion.
On mushrooms, sure, that'd be possible. DMT, not so much. I'm on kind of a break from that anyway. Having seemingly external entities take over your perception isn't always fun.
Landru,
Here's a quick description of how DMT is different from other classical psychedelics, including psilocybin-containing mushrooms, from neuropharmacologist and chemist Dr. Andrew Gallimore (timestamped section quoted below):
"The LSD, psilocybin, mescaline—they changed the world to be novel, more fluid, more unpredictable. But they seem to change this world; it seems to be an alternate version of the consensus world. Whereas DMT is different. DMT changes the information generated by the brain in such a profound way that it is essentially what Terrence McKenna used to call a '100% reality switch.' It switches the brain very rapidly, within 30 seconds, from constructing the consensus world to constructing this bizarre, highly complex, alien reality, and it does it with great efficiency."
I referenced him earlier with an external quote that essentially says the same thing, but it appears you missed it. If you search his name, he has some more in-depth discussion on what DMT is doing differently than others.
Okay, maybe it'd be better to say that you are implying that. Otherwise, what is the point of thinking that is evidence against anything and bolding the entire section? What even is the purpose of this exchange? How do you think a barebones "drugs are bad" government website saying a chemical structure is like another is evidence refuting what I said? It seems more like you're sticking to a contrarian stance just for the sake of being contrarian. Why aren't you engaging with the evidence I posted that highlights just how radically different they are?
I have provided more than enough evidence on how DMT is different from other psychedelics, including it's endogenous nature in our species. It's also widespread among mammals and tons of plants. The experience is what is novel and unique, which you're somehow overriding/ignoring because of chemical structure? Why? Again, O2 and O3 are more similar than n,n-DMT and psilocin, but I highly doubt you'd make a stink about someone saying they are vastly different in experience after human ingestion.
You have a tendency to make sweeping statements that are either exaggerated or not supported by facts. Such as,
Article:
You absolutely did not provide evidence of that. You linked a drug facts page that shows something I've already mentioned (although it incorrectly implies the prodrug psilocybin is the active compound, when it's psilocin, the DMT analog that your liver converts psilocybin into).
Also, use the Reply button when replying so the post you are replying to is included. This makes it easier on the reader.
Here's a quick description of how DMT is different from other classical psychedelics, including psilocybin-containing mushrooms, from neuropharmacologist and chemist Dr. Andrew Gallimore (timestamped section quoted below):
Another citation that states DMT has similar effects to Salvia (though there are diffences).
Article:
Both salvia and DMT produce similar types of effects that are often the properties of hallucinogenic drugs. The prototypical hallucinogenic drug is LSD, and salvia and DMT produce the types of effects that LSD produces; however, the actual experience that any particular individual has will vary depending on numerous individual differences and environmental factors. The context in which a hallucinogenic drug is used can affect the types of experiences one has while under its influence.
Here's a quick description of how DMT is different from other classical psychedelics, including psilocybin-containing mushrooms, from neuropharmacologist and chemist Dr. Andrew Gallimore (timestamped section quoted below):
Another citation that states DMT has similar effects to Salvia (though there are diffences).
Article:
Both salvia and DMT produce similar types of effects that are often the properties of hallucinogenic drugs. The prototypical hallucinogenic drug is LSD, and salvia and DMT produce the types of effects that LSD produces; however, the actual experience that any particular individual has will vary depending on numerous individual differences and environmental factors. The context in which a hallucinogenic drug is used can affect the types of experiences one has while under its influence.
You are linking drug treatment center websites with garbage SEO-driven content that makes zero sense whatsoever. You don't even know enough about the topic to realize how terrible your "source" is for this. Salvia, DMT, and LSD are nothing alike. You can find garbage websites to support any contrarian opinion you want. Good job.
You're using what is essentially a cheap blog post to "debunk" a neuroscientist, pharmacologist, and chemist with PhD's from Cambridge who has dedicated his life to studying DMT. And all for what? "Ah-ha! DMT ISN'T THAT UNIQUE!" And you've now abandoned chemical structure as your comparison and are going to what, experience?
Your evidence included "we scraped words from a subreddit where a self-selecting group people communicated with other like-minded individuals".
Evidence for what?! I never made any claims OTHER THAN THE EXPERIENCES PEOPLE REPORT. I am the one who pointed out that there won't be studies "validating" anything because it's a subjective experience inside someone's head. How the hell can there be anything other than trip reports like I've provided that make it obvious the experiences are radically different? Do you think there's some Neuralink implant to confirm something like this?
I posted a video of one of the most knowledgeable scientists studying DMT as he explains how markedly different DMT is from other psychedelics. If that isn't enough, what do you want? I have linked plenty of papers that you all could browse and see for yourself. I have pointed out multiple facts about the molecule that are unique, which are ignored, because none of you are engaging genuinely or without weird bias.
What is wrong with all of you? You're simultaneously experts on something none of you knew a single thing about an hour ago. And all to debunk claims that nobody has even made? You don't even understand what the reddit scrape study was, smh.
Ok, fine. You guys are right. DMT is not different from anything else. It's structurally similar to its analogues and that means they're the same. And that terrible rehab website with the cheaply outsourced SEO content that makes no sense is excellent evidence. Well done. This totally isn't a bunch of people doing everything possible to shut a discussion down for no reason. I asked what would be proof, more than once, "anything at all" or crickets.
"It says here that other drugs can make people hallucinate." Good stuff, Landru. Case closed.
He's saying "alien" in the sense that it's completely unfamiliar to our world model. Because it is. If you'd bother reading, he will explain exactly what's happening with the neuroscience involved and how DMT is puzzling. I'm done linking stuff, though. I don't want terms like "Hyperspace" to throw everyone off again.
He is agnostic on the origin of the entities or worlds, only explaining that it isn't yet explained. He has theories, but makes it clear they are just theories and guesses in the areas that we aren't able to figure out yet. But hey, I get it. It's a lot easier to "debunk" stuff when you disingenuously engage with everything. Sure, treat him like Bob Lazar or something.
Anyway, I think we need some more brainpower to debunk the jellyfish. Keep up the good work.
I dont see any comparisons to Bob Lazar. At least my limited knowledge of Bob..i thought Bob was talking about literal physical space ships, not hallucinations of spaceships. ??
i dont think people are saying its not different. Obviously lsd is a "different" trip than mushrooms or mesc.
obviously if you freebase cocaine (smoke it) vs snorting or eating, you get a different high and different intensity. (anecdoctal from friends)
other than maybe marijuana, (or heroin which i have no experience with) i dont know any drug that hits you in 5 mins and only lasts for 20. does heroin last for 20? maybe it does. Of course i never tried smoking mushrooms. so dmt sounds "different" in that respect.
I think people, at least i am, are wondering if it is different ENOUGH to manifest real live alternate universes from one hit. I mean maybe if the claim was more along the lines of Monks who practice for years on end to "open" whatever... but one drag with no prior prep of what to expect or training to guide yourself?
Don't blame people for being super skeptical.
You're using what is essentially a cheap blog post to "debunk" a neuroscientist, pharmacologist, and chemist with PhD's from Cambridge who has dedicated his life to studying DMT.
We are using the words of many, many researchers while you have thrown your hat into the ring with a single one. That imbalance in support is not our fault, nor is it rectified in any way by either your vehemence or your sarcasm. DMT is a hallucinogen. True, and thus there is nothing surprising about those who use it having hallucinations. That should be the end of the story, but furthermore it is illegal in most places, and I find something unseemly about your rabid enthusiasm for it, which approaches the charge of "pushing drugs".
You're right of course, there are similarities, just as there are similarities (stronger, I think) with beings/ events perceived by some people experiencing sleep paralysis and some "abduction" narratives.
(Not sure "mantids" feature often in UFO abduction reports?)
@Area 51/50 has told us about DMT experiences having features of claimed alien abduction reports. I wonder if there might be some underlying common mechanisms shared by some (i.e. a small minority of) people experiencing "paranormal" phenomena (including high-strangeness UFO/ alien reports), and some people experiencing altered cognition for some other reasons- acute physiological or psychological stress (including sleep deprivation), sleep disorders, epileptiform events, near-death experiences, use of some hallucinogens (notably DMT), maybe isolated instances of idiopathic altered states of consciousness.
It's possible that identified similarities between strange experiences under these different conditions might give clues to the mechanisms behind some abduction experiences.
Researchers have drawn parallels between DMT experiences and so-called near-death experiences (NDEs; more on these below); see
"Neurochemical models of near-death experiences: a large-scale study based on the semantic similarity of written reports", Martial, C., Cassol, H., Charland-Verville, V. et al, 2019, Consciousness and Cognition 69 (which in common with much other work states that DMTs psychedelic properties are via agonist effects at cerebral serotonin 2A receptors):
...we determined that the N-methyl-D-aspartate (NMDA) receptor antagonist ketamine consistently resulted in reports most similar to those associated with NDEs. Ketamine was followed by Salvia divinorum (a plant containing a potent and selective κ receptor [kappa opioid receptor, John J.] agonist) and a series of serotonergic psychedelics, including the endogenous serotonin 2A receptor agonist N,N-Dimethyltryptamine (DMT).
Alleged ‘paranormal’ experiences have also been associated with higher NDE scores (Kohr, 1983; Greyson, 2003) and delusional thinking (measured through the PDI) and younger age have also been shown to correlate with NDE scores. Here, correlation analysis revealed a positive relationship between baseline PDI scores and NDE scores after DMT
-where "PDI"= the Peters et al. Delusions Inventory (see "Measurement of delusional ideation in the normal population: introducing the PDI (Peters et al. Delusions Inventory)", Emmanuelle Peters, S.A. Joseph, P.A. Garety 1999, Schizophrenia Bulletin 25 (3), https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/10478789/ abstract only; the PDI has since been updated).
In the above quote, Timmermann et al. are saying there is a significant relationship between people who report "paranormal" (not defined, but non-NDE) experiences and people who report NDEs.
There is a significant relationship between a PDI-measured propensity for delusional thinking and experiencing the paranormal,
and there is a significant relationship between propensity for delusional thinking and reporting NDE-type features after taking DMT. ("Delusional thinking" is not meant to be a pejorative, but a measured variable.)
Evidence for a link between some alien abduction claims and altered states of consciousness from organic/ endogenous causes seems strong:
In Dark White: Aliens, abductions, and the UFO obsession (Jim Schnabel, pub. Hamish Hamilton 1994), the author relates a rare case of an abduction experience (undergone by an Australian woman IIRC) being observed by others- the experiencer was having an epileptic event; other than her behaviour the witnesses didn't see anything strange.
The 1979 account given by forestry worker Robert Taylor interests me. Walking with his dog* near Livingston, Scotland, he saw a UFO about 480 metres (530 yards) away. Two smaller spheres which he described as "similar to sea mines" rolled towards him, somehow seized him and were dragging him towards the UFO when he blacked out. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Taylor_incident
Taylor with a picture of what he claimed to have seen (the "main" UFO and the mine-like spheres are not to scale)- I don't know when the photo was taken; he was 60 in 1979, looks older here:
Taylor awoke, and returned home with torn muddy clothing and some grazes; his wife called the police and a doctor.
By all accounts, Taylor was a reliable, down-to-Earth man with little previous interest in strange phenomena, and he was always adamant that his account was truthful and accurate.
It was generally agreed that Taylor, who moved away from the Livingston area after his disturbing adventure, was not a man given to concocting fanciful stories.
He never sought publicity or gained financially from the ensuing media interest - and he continued to stand by every word of his account.
However, medical doctor (and founder of the Edinburgh University UFO Research Society) Patricia Hannaford opined that Taylor had actually experienced an isolated temporal lobe epileptiform event; Taylor remembered a strong acrid smell before passing out, a possible pre-convulsion "aura", and Hannaford thought the estimated time Taylor was unconscious supports this theory. Taylor had previously been ill with meningitis, increasing the chances of him suffering such an attack (Wikipedia, ibid.)
There are other possible clues to a neurological origin; Taylor heard a "swishing" sound immediately before losing consciousness, another possible aura. Interestingly, Timmermann et al (2018, ibid.) write
Commonly described features of the DMT experience include... ...an acoustic perception of a high pitched ‘whining/whirring’ sound during the onset of the experience
although any relationship between this and Taylor's report must be conjectural at best.
On waking, Taylor tried to get help using a radio in his truck, but found he couldn't talk
( "Dechmont Woods incident: BBC's One Show recreates Robert Taylor 'UFO encounter'", Edinburgh Live (Reach plc), Neil Pooran, 27 February 2020, click here to link to website) and had a headache (Wikipedia); the headache is a common post-ictal (post-epileptic fit) symptom, transient aphasia -inability to speak- is a less common, but known, post-ictal symptom.
Taylor described the main UFO as having
...a rough texture like sandpaper
(Wikipedia, ibid) which implies he was very close, even touching it- but he said it was several hundred metres/ yards away. Nevertheless I believe his account was subjectively truthful- he received a strong impression of the texture of the UFO's surface.
Then there's the circular motifs- the main UFO was circular (common in UFO reports) but bizarrely had a ring of tiny propellers around its periphery. And the spherical "mines" which rolled towards him. (Elsewhere on this forum @Duke pointed out that "flying saucer", implying a disc shape, was a press man's misquote of Kenneth Arnold's 1947 description, and raised the excellent question of whether subsequent UFO sightings would have described different-shaped craft if this error had not been made).
Circular percepts, sometimes interpreted as tunnels, are a common feature of "near death experiences", NDEs.
"NDE" is a debatable term; features of NDEs are experienced by some people who are not near death, and a large majority of people who have been critically ill- e.g., cardiac arrest- do not report NDEs:
Results: 11.1% of 63 survivors reported memories. The majority had NDE features.
"A qualitative and quantitative study of the incidence, features and aetiology of near death experiences in cardiac arrest survivors", Sam Parnia, D.G. Waller, R. Yeates, P. Fenwick, Resuscitation 48 (2) 2001, link here (abstract only).
Parnia et al.'s majority is the majority of 11.1% of the total subjects (n=63). 11.1% of 63 =7 allowing for rounding; a majority of 7 might be 4 (6.35% of 63); a relevant Wikipedia article supports that number
Four had experiences that, according to the study criteria, were NDEs
There are two important points regarding the author's apparent claim that 6.35% of cardiac arrest survivors studied gave accounts with "...NDE features."
(1). None of those four individuals reported an out-of-body experience (OBE).
(Parnia et al. had attached pictures, face-up, to the ceiling above some hospital critical care beds to see if anyone reporting an NDE, including an OBE, would be able to describe the pictures afterwards.)
(2) What of the three individuals who reported memories which we are told did not have NDE features?
They were experienced at a time when those individuals were objectively close to death. It would seem that in this study, an NDE is something that conforms to the researcher's a priori criteria, not any reported experience of awareness / ideation during cardiac arrest, which seems odd -although it does in effect keep NDEs limited to "canonical" features, arguably perpetuating a narrative of what a "real" NDE is by deciding that near-death experiences without these canonical features are not NDEs.
There appeared to be no differences on all physiological measured parameters apart from partial pressure of oxygen during the arrest which was higher in the NDE group.
Parnia et al., ibid. So individuals with higher blood oxygenation were more likely to report some degree of cognition.
If any cognition occurs more than a second or so post-onset of cardiac arrest (there isn't a consensus about this AFAIK), and if cognition is dependent on cerebral perfusion with oxygenated blood, we might expect this finding which links higher blood oxygenation to residual cognition.
Nonetheless, Parnia et al. continue
The occurrence of NDE during cardiac arrest raises questions about the possible relationship between the mind and the brain.
Well, it does for Parnia et al., but not for many others.
Sam Parnia has continued an active career in resuscitation research, and has undoubtedly contributed to the saving of many lives. He has also continued to investigate NDEs, and theorises that the mind is not necessarily dependent on the brain, very much a contentious minority view amongst his peers.
DMT is an endogenously-produced chemical in humans and at least some other animals (and plants).
DMT may play a role in a variety of non-ordinary states of consciousness such as dreaming, psychosis, spiritual experiences, encounters with non-human intelligence (e.g. alien and unidentified flying object (UFO) encounters), extrasensory perception, out-of-body experiences, and near-death experiences (Gallimore 2013; Grammenos and Barker, 2015; Luke, 2008, 2011, 2012; St. John, 2016, 2018; Strassman, 2001, 2008; Timmermann et al., 2018). However, it is not clear that DMT occurs endogenously in sufficient concentrations to produce pharmacological effects (Barker, 2018; Nichols, 2018).
From Davis, A.K., Clifton, J.M., Griffiths, R.R. et al., "Survey of entity encounter experiences occasioned by inhaled N,N-dimethyltryptamine: Phenomenology, interpretation, and enduring effects", Journal of Psychopharmacology 34 (9), 2020,
already linked to by Area 51/50 https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/full/10.1177/0269881120916143
Maybe in specific circumstances, the nature of which we do not fully understand yet (but often involving stressors of some sort) some people are more susceptible to the cognitive/ emotional effects of their endogenous DMT. Or maybe exogenous DMT, in affecting (impairing) our normal cognition mimics some of the perceptual changes that (hypothetically) might occur during abduction experiences, sleep disorders, NDEs, etc. etc.
-Back to circular motifs and improbable circular/ spherical machinery, Rick Strassman, clinical associate professor of psychiatry at the University of New Mexico, has investigated hallucinogens and accounts by hallucinogen users for many years,
including government-funded research into DMT, 1990-1995 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rick_Strassman (he might have coined the term "spirit molecule").
Strassman believes there's
...a similarity in his study participants' descriptions of mechanized wheels, gears and machinery in these encounters, with those described in visions of encounters with the Living Creatures and Ophanim of the Hebrew Bible, noting they may stem from a common neuropsychopharmacological experience.
Although Ezekiel in the Old Testament gives us the phrase "wheels within wheels" (King James Bible "wheel in the middle of a wheel", other translations vary), and ancient astronaut enthusiasts have long linked Ezekiel's descriptions with alien tech, there isn't a description of mechanized wheels or gears in the Old Testament, excepting a potter's wheel in Jeremiah.
This does not exclude the possibility that Ezekiel's visions (which included the four-faced, winged Living Creatures) might have had some connection with (theoretical) processes that cause people experiencing sleep paralysis/ NDEs/ alien abduction/ DMT usage to perceive unusual beings/ strange circular or spherical mechanisms or (in NDEs and instances of religious ecstasy, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religious_ecstasy) religious figures.
We simply do not know. Many ancient cultures were aware of epilepsy (at least in terms of generalised seizures) but there is no indication that Ezekiel was described as having epilepsy.
It's broadly accepted that much of the imagery in the Book of Revelation is deliberately metaphorical and has meanings that were clear to the faithful, maybe the same applies to Ezekiel. I think it's unlikely that Hebrew prophecy was significantly influenced by use of hallucinogens (and certain it wasn't helped by aliens). Much prophecy seems to have occurred at times of great communal and individual stress.
Strassman's comments about "mechanized wheels, gears and machinery" and the "wheels within wheels" phrase did make me think of Bob Taylor's UFO with its strange ring of tiny propellers and tumbling "sea mines".
I found this account on Reddit (reddit r/DMT) from user catnip_addicted, in response to this pic posted (with 3 others) from
"r/oddlyterrifying 4 yr. ago Bible accurate angels be like: "DO NOT BE AFRAID" (I have no idea how reddit works),
[Edited to add: Wow, I didn't expect that chunk of Reddit page to appear.]
catnip_addicted had taken some DMT, and claimed to see this, which is an artist's impression of one of the eye-studded wheels /wheel within a wheel described (not at all clearly) by Ezekiel.
4 yr. ago
DMTryptamines
Saw this post on bible accurate angels and they looked way too familiar to me/
catnip_addicted
4y ago
...I saw the "thing" that I see in the first picture. I 've never been really able to describe it until some months ago I saw this picture. I remember "it" to be like a clock mechanism. It was moving, all the wheels were rotating and I could sense it.
It told me me that if I've kept looking at it as soon as it would have completed a full "cycle" and the the ringing in my ears would have reached the max pitch I would have seen all the truth. I was with my eyes closed [when] I was having this vision
As I was reaching the end of the cycle I felt an immense fear and I opened my eyes, interrupting the vision. So I didn't see all the truth (sigh).
(Black rectangle 2nd pic= masking unpleasant detail not needed for this post).
I wonder if the "Event Horizon" drive and the artist's conception of Ezekiel's wheel within a wheel are connected in any way?
Maybe catnip_addicted was recalling the film at some level.
This would be an example of a cultural cause of an unusual perception, not an underlying neurological cause.
More than half of those who identified as atheist before the experience no longer identified as atheist afterwards. The experiences were rated as among the most meaningful, spiritual, and psychologically insightful lifetime experiences, with persisting positive changes in life satisfaction, purpose, and meaning attributed to the experiences.
This would be a startling find in the general population.
However, this wasn't an experimental trial but a survey. Davis et al. only recruited DMT users who (1) reported having had a "breakthrough" experience and (2) reported encountering beings who "seemed to act autonomously".
You're right of course, there are similarities, just as there are similarities (stronger, I think) with beings/ events perceived by some people experiencing sleep paralysis and some "abduction" narratives.
(Not sure "mantids" feature often in UFO abduction reports?)
@Area 51/50 has told us about DMT experiences having features of claimed alien abduction reports. I wonder if there might be some underlying common mechanisms shared by some (i.e. a small minority of) people experiencing "paranormal" phenomena (including high-strangeness UFO/ alien reports), and some people experiencing altered cognition for some other reasons- acute physiological or psychological stress (including sleep deprivation), sleep disorders, epileptiform events, near-death experiences, use of some hallucinogens (notably DMT), maybe isolated instances of idiopathic altered states of consciousness.
It's possible that identified similarities between strange experiences under these different conditions might give clues to the mechanisms behind some abduction experiences.
Researchers have drawn parallels between DMT experiences and so-called near-death experiences (NDEs; more on these below); see
"Neurochemical models of near-death experiences: a large-scale study based on the semantic similarity of written reports", Martial, C., Cassol, H., Charland-Verville, V. et al, 2019, Consciousness and Cognition 69 (which in common with much other work states that DMTs psychedelic properties are via agonist effects at cerebral serotonin 2A receptors):
...we determined that the N-methyl-D-aspartate (NMDA) receptor antagonist ketamine consistently resulted in reports most similar to those associated with NDEs. Ketamine was followed by Salvia divinorum (a plant containing a potent and selective κ receptor [kappa opioid receptor, John J.] agonist) and a series of serotonergic psychedelics, including the endogenous serotonin 2A receptor agonist N,N-Dimethyltryptamine (DMT).
Alleged ‘paranormal’ experiences have also been associated with higher NDE scores (Kohr, 1983; Greyson, 2003) and delusional thinking (measured through the PDI) and younger age have also been shown to correlate with NDE scores. Here, correlation analysis revealed a positive relationship between baseline PDI scores and NDE scores after DMT
-where "PDI"= the Peters et al. Delusions Inventory (see "Measurement of delusional ideation in the normal population: introducing the PDI (Peters et al. Delusions Inventory)", Emmanuelle Peters, S.A. Joseph, P.A. Garety 1999, Schizophrenia Bulletin 25 (3), https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/10478789/ abstract only; the PDI has since been updated).
In the above quote, Timmermann et al. are saying there is a significant relationship between people who report "paranormal" (not defined, but non-NDE) experiences and people who report NDEs.
There is a significant relationship between a PDI-measured propensity for delusional thinking and experiencing the paranormal,
and there is a significant relationship between propensity for delusional thinking and reporting NDE-type features after taking DMT. ("Delusional thinking" is not meant to be a pejorative, but a measured variable.)
Evidence for a link between some alien abduction claims and altered states of consciousness from organic/ endogenous causes seems strong:
In Dark White: Aliens, abductions, and the UFO obsession (Jim Schnabel, pub. Hamish Hamilton 1994), the author relates a rare case of an abduction experience (undergone by an Australian woman IIRC) being observed by others- the experiencer was having an epileptic event; other than her behaviour the witnesses didn't see anything strange.
The 1979 account given by forestry worker Robert Taylor interests me. Walking with his dog* near Livingston, Scotland, he saw a UFO about 480 metres (530 yards) away. Two smaller spheres which he described as "similar to sea mines" rolled towards him, somehow seized him and were dragging him towards the UFO when he blacked out. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Taylor_incident
Taylor with a picture of what he claimed to have seen (the "main" UFO and the mine-like spheres are not to scale)- I don't know when the photo was taken; he was 60 in 1979, looks older here:
Taylor awoke, and returned home with torn muddy clothing and some grazes; his wife called the police and a doctor.
By all accounts, Taylor was a reliable, down-to-Earth man with little previous interest in strange phenomena, and he was always adamant that his account was truthful and accurate.
It was generally agreed that Taylor, who moved away from the Livingston area after his disturbing adventure, was not a man given to concocting fanciful stories.
He never sought publicity or gained financially from the ensuing media interest - and he continued to stand by every word of his account.
However, medical doctor (and founder of the Edinburgh University UFO Research Society) Patricia Hannaford opined that Taylor had actually experienced an isolated temporal lobe epileptiform event; Taylor remembered a strong acrid smell before passing out, a possible pre-convulsion "aura", and Hannaford thought the estimated time Taylor was unconscious supports this theory. Taylor had previously been ill with meningitis, increasing the chances of him suffering such an attack (Wikipedia, ibid.)
There are other possible clues to a neurological origin; Taylor heard a "swishing" sound immediately before losing consciousness, another possible aura. Interestingly, Timmermann et al (2018, ibid.) write
Commonly described features of the DMT experience include... ...an acoustic perception of a high pitched ‘whining/whirring’ sound during the onset of the experience
although any relationship between this and Taylor's report must be conjectural at best.
On waking, Taylor tried to get help using a radio in his truck, but found he couldn't talk
( "Dechmont Woods incident: BBC's One Show recreates Robert Taylor 'UFO encounter'", Edinburgh Live (Reach plc), Neil Pooran, 27 February 2020, click here to link to website) and had a headache (Wikipedia); the headache is a common post-ictal (post-epileptic fit) symptom, transient aphasia -inability to speak- is a less common, but known, post-ictal symptom.
Taylor described the main UFO as having
...a rough texture like sandpaper
(Wikipedia, ibid) which implies he was very close, even touching it- but he said it was several hundred metres/ yards away. Nevertheless I believe his account was subjectively truthful- he received a strong impression of the texture of the UFO's surface.
Then there's the circular motifs- the main UFO was circular (common in UFO reports) but bizarrely had a ring of tiny propellers around its periphery. And the spherical "mines" which rolled towards him. (Elsewhere on this forum @Duke pointed out that "flying saucer", implying a disc shape, was a press man's misquote of Kenneth Arnold's 1947 description, and raised the excellent question of whether subsequent UFO sightings would have described different-shaped craft if this error had not been made).
Circular percepts, sometimes interpreted as tunnels, are a common feature of "near death experiences", NDEs.
"NDE" is a debatable term; features of NDEs are experienced by some people who are not near death, and a large majority of people who have been critically ill- e.g., cardiac arrest- do not report NDEs:
Results: 11.1% of 63 survivors reported memories. The majority had NDE features.
"A qualitative and quantitative study of the incidence, features and aetiology of near death experiences in cardiac arrest survivors", Sam Parnia, D.G. Waller, R. Yeates, P. Fenwick, Resuscitation 48 (2) 2001, link here (abstract only).
Parnia et al.'s majority is the majority of 11.1% of the total subjects (n=63). 11.1% of 63 =7 allowing for rounding; a majority of 7 might be 4 (6.35% of 63); a relevant Wikipedia article supports that number
Four had experiences that, according to the study criteria, were NDEs
There are two important points regarding the author's apparent claim that 6.35% of cardiac arrest survivors studied gave accounts with "...NDE features."
(1). None of those four individuals reported an out-of-body experience (OBE).
(Parnia et al. had attached pictures, face-up, to the ceiling above some hospital critical care beds to see if anyone reporting an NDE, including an OBE, would be able to describe the pictures afterwards.)
(2) What of the three individuals who reported memories which we are told did not have NDE features?
They were experienced at a time when those individuals were objectively close to death. It would seem that in this study, an NDE is something that conforms to the researcher's a priori criteria, not any reported experience of awareness / ideation during cardiac arrest, which seems odd -although it does in effect keep NDEs limited to "canonical" features, arguably perpetuating a narrative of what a "real" NDE is by deciding that near-death experiences without these canonical features are not NDEs.
There appeared to be no differences on all physiological measured parameters apart from partial pressure of oxygen during the arrest which was higher in the NDE group.
Parnia et al., ibid. So individuals with higher blood oxygenation were more likely to report some degree of cognition.
If any cognition occurs more than a second or so post-onset of cardiac arrest (there isn't a consensus about this AFAIK), and if cognition is dependent on cerebral perfusion with oxygenated blood, we might expect this finding which links higher blood oxygenation to residual cognition.
Nonetheless, Parnia et al. continue
The occurrence of NDE during cardiac arrest raises questions about the possible relationship between the mind and the brain.
Well, it does for Parnia et al., but not for many others.
Sam Parnia has continued an active career in resuscitation research, and has undoubtedly contributed to the saving of many lives. He has also continued to investigate NDEs, and theorises that the mind is not necessarily dependent on the brain, very much a contentious minority view amongst his peers.
DMT is an endogenously-produced chemical in humans and at least some other animals (and plants).
DMT may play a role in a variety of non-ordinary states of consciousness such as dreaming, psychosis, spiritual experiences, encounters with non-human intelligence (e.g. alien and unidentified flying object (UFO) encounters), extrasensory perception, out-of-body experiences, and near-death experiences (Gallimore 2013; Grammenos and Barker, 2015; Luke, 2008, 2011, 2012; St. John, 2016, 2018; Strassman, 2001, 2008; Timmermann et al., 2018). However, it is not clear that DMT occurs endogenously in sufficient concentrations to produce pharmacological effects (Barker, 2018; Nichols, 2018).
From Davis, A.K., Clifton, J.M., Griffiths, R.R. et al., "Survey of entity encounter experiences occasioned by inhaled N,N-dimethyltryptamine: Phenomenology, interpretation, and enduring effects", Journal of Psychopharmacology 34 (9), 2020,
already linked to by Area 51/50 https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/full/10.1177/0269881120916143
Maybe in specific circumstances, the nature of which we do not fully understand yet (but often involving stressors of some sort) some people are more susceptible to the cognitive/ emotional effects of their endogenous DMT. Or maybe exogenous DMT, in affecting (impairing) our normal cognition mimics some of the perceptual changes that (hypothetically) might occur during abduction experiences, sleep disorders, NDEs, etc. etc.
-Back to circular motifs and improbable circular/ spherical machinery, Rick Strassman, clinical associate professor of psychiatry at the University of New Mexico, has investigated hallucinogens and accounts by hallucinogen users for many years,
including government-funded research into DMT, 1990-1995 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rick_Strassman (he might have coined the term "spirit molecule").
Strassman believes there's
...a similarity in his study participants' descriptions of mechanized wheels, gears and machinery in these encounters, with those described in visions of encounters with the Living Creatures and Ophanim of the Hebrew Bible, noting they may stem from a common neuropsychopharmacological experience.
Although Ezekiel in the Old Testament gives us the phrase "wheels within wheels" (King James Bible "wheel in the middle of a wheel", other translations vary), and ancient astronaut enthusiasts have long linked Ezekiel's descriptions with alien tech, there isn't a description of mechanized wheels or gears in the Old Testament, excepting a potter's wheel in Jeremiah.
This does not exclude the possibility that Ezekiel's visions (which included the four-faced, winged Living Creatures) might have had some connection with (theoretical) processes that cause people experiencing sleep paralysis/ NDEs/ alien abduction/ DMT usage to perceive unusual beings/ strange circular or spherical mechanisms or (in NDEs and instances of religious ecstasy, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religious_ecstasy) religious figures.
We simply do not know. Many ancient cultures were aware of epilepsy (at least in terms of generalised seizures) but there is no indication that Ezekiel was described as having epilepsy.
It's broadly accepted that much of the imagery in the Book of Revelation is deliberately metaphorical and has meanings that were clear to the faithful, maybe the same applies to Ezekiel. I think it's unlikely that Hebrew prophecy was significantly influenced by use of hallucinogens (and certain it wasn't helped by aliens). Much prophecy seems to have occurred at times of great communal and individual stress.
Strassman's comments about "mechanized wheels, gears and machinery" and the "wheels within wheels" phrase did make me think of Bob Taylor's UFO with its strange ring of tiny propellers and tumbling "sea mines".
I found this account on Reddit (reddit r/DMT) from user catnip_addicted, in response to this pic posted (with 3 others) from
"r/oddlyterrifying 4 yr. ago Bible accurate angels be like: "DO NOT BE AFRAID" (I have no idea how reddit works),
[Edited to add: Wow, I didn't expect that chunk of Reddit page to appear.]
catnip_addicted had taken some DMT, and claimed to see this, which is an artist's impression of one of the eye-studded wheels /wheel within a wheel described (not at all clearly) by Ezekiel.
4 yr. ago
DMTryptamines
Saw this post on bible accurate angels and they looked way too familiar to me/
catnip_addicted
4y ago
...I saw the "thing" that I see in the first picture. I 've never been really able to describe it until some months ago I saw this picture. I remember "it" to be like a clock mechanism. It was moving, all the wheels were rotating and I could sense it.
It told me me that if I've kept looking at it as soon as it would have completed a full "cycle" and the the ringing in my ears would have reached the max pitch I would have seen all the truth. I was with my eyes closed [when] I was having this vision
As I was reaching the end of the cycle I felt an immense fear and I opened my eyes, interrupting the vision. So I didn't see all the truth (sigh).
(Black rectangle 2nd pic= masking unpleasant detail not needed for this post).
I wonder if the "Event Horizon" drive and the artist's conception of Ezekiel's wheel within a wheel are connected in any way?
Maybe catnip_addicted was recalling the film at some level.
This would be an example of a cultural cause of an unusual perception, not an underlying neurological cause.
This would be a startling find in the general population.
However, this wasn't an experimental trial but a survey. Davis et al. only recruited DMT users who (1) reported having had a "breakthrough" experience and (2) reported encountering beings who "seemed to act autonomously".
a more recent study, 2022, where they did brain scans
Article:
The research, published in PNAS, was led by Dr. Chris Timmermann at the Centre for Psychedelic Research at Imperial. It combined electroencephalography (EEG) and functional magnetic resonance imaging (fMRI) to explore the effects of DMT on the human brain.
...
DMT breaks down the brain’s segregated networks of activity
The researchers found that DMT triggered changes within and between different brain regions. Under normal circumstances, brain activity is segregated into specific networks. After administration of DMT, the boundaries of these networks seem to collapse, resulting in what the authors describe as “global functional connectivity”. Compared to placebo, DMT administration significantly decreased the within-network integrity of all resting state networks, excluding the salience and limbic networks. The changes to activity were most prominent in brain areas linked with “higher level” functions, such as imagination.
That's a very positive-sounding phrase.
I hope the authors remembered that taking DMT impairs cognition. There are a lot of complex activities you wouldn't want to try under its influence (driving in heavy rain, negotiating an overdraft, meeting your g/fs or b/fs parents for the first time...)
If the brain has segregated networks, they're probably segregated for a reason.
It put me in mind of Thomas M. Disch's 1968 SF novel Camp Concentration, in which
...prisoners are injected with a form of syphilis intended to make them geniuses (hence the punning reference to "concentration" in the novel's title). By breaking down rigid categories in the mind (according to a definition of genius put forward by Arthur Koestler), the disease makes the thought process both faster and more flexible
"Segregated" can have negative connotations. The authors could have said,
"brain activity is performed by specialised independent networks, which working in parallel give us a seamless and coherent view of reality in a complex process not fully understood ("the binding problem"). Under DMT, these networks lose some of their independence, and our perception of reality and ability to function normally becomes impaired, while hallucinated percepts appear to have high salience."
(I don't think the author's apparent claim that attribution of salience remains unaffected stands up at all; it's very obvious that some DMT users find their hallucinations to be absorbing and highly significant even after the event).
That's a very positive-sounding phrase.
I hope the authors remembered that taking DMT impairs cognition. There are a lot of complex activities you wouldn't want to try under its influence (driving in heavy rain, negotiating an overdraft, meeting your g/fs or b/fs parents for the first time...)
nice input. i read it exactly opposite. i figure my brain network collapsing is an undesirable thing
although...if the subject were say a "narcissistic asshat" maybe his networks collapsing would be a good thing!
On mushrooms, sure, that'd be possible. DMT, not so much. I'm on kind of a break from that anyway. Having seemingly external entities take over your perception isn't always fun.
Landru,
Here's a quick description of how DMT is different from other classical psychedelics, including psilocybin-containing mushrooms, from neuropharmacologist and chemist Dr. Andrew Gallimore (timestamped section quoted below):
"The LSD, psilocybin, mescaline—they changed the world to be novel, more fluid, more unpredictable. But they seem to change this world; it seems to be an alternate version of the consensus world. Whereas DMT is different. DMT changes the information generated by the brain in such a profound way that it is essentially what Terrence McKenna used to call a '100% reality switch.' It switches the brain very rapidly, within 30 seconds, from constructing the consensus world to constructing this bizarre, highly complex, alien reality, and it does it with great efficiency."
I referenced him earlier with an external quote that essentially says the same thing, but it appears you missed it. If you search his name, he has some more in-depth discussion on what DMT is doing differently than others.
This short clip was ambiguous, so I've been looking at YT videos to see what Gallimore is really saying. After a short while it was evident to me that he believes what this source says...
Andrew Gallimore is a neurobiologist, pharmacologist, and chemist currently based in Tokyo, Japan, where he writes about psychedelics as molecular technologies for interfacing with alternate realities and for communication with the apparently intelligent beings that reside therein. He is the author of Alien Information Theory: Psychedelic Drug Technologies and the Cosmic Game, and the forthcoming Reality Switch Technologies: Psychedelics as Tools for the Discovery and Exploration of New Worlds, in addition to a range of both academic and popular articles on DMT and other psychedelic molecules. In 2015, he collaborated with DMT pioneer Dr. Rick Strassman to develop a model for the repurposing of the target-controlled intravenous infusion technology used in anaesthesiology to allow the DMT state to be safely and stably extended for an indefinite period of time. It is hoped that this technology will be used to allow extended sojourns in the DMT space for detailed exploration and mapping of the space, as well as for performing experiments and establishing communication with contacted intelligences.
I've been pleading here and there on MB for a greater appreciation that the reality we experience is created moment by moment by our brain. That seems very unappreciated to me.
It doesn't feel real to me that DMT puts you in contact with a different reality - one that would exist without humans. It feels real to me that the brain with DMT is creating a personal reality. It's functioning in a different way, so the reality it creates is different. There are experiential similarities between people, because humans are similar.
If it feels real to someone else that you're in touch with a different reality on your DMT adventures... that's what you have to go with. Because I also think that we don't decide what we believe. It just happens. I have less than zero interest in trying to persuade you or anyone else otherwise. What if I'm wrong?
I've been pleading here and there on MB for a greater appreciation that the reality we experience is created moment by moment by our brain. That seems very unappreciated to me.
It doesn't feel real to me that DMT puts you in contact with a different reality - one that would exist without humans. It feels real to me that the Brain with DMT is creating a personal reality.
I agree that we are not discussing a "reality" that would exist without humans. But the way this is stated uses an entirely different definition of "reality" from the one most of us use. In other words, what a person experiences has no claim to being called "the reality" he experiences. This is true whether or not a person has a mental illness, a head injury, severe intoxication, a near-death experience, or a chemically induced hallucination. I suggest we simply refer to it as an "experience" without perverting the definition of reality.
You are linking drug treatment center websites with garbage SEO-driven content that makes zero sense whatsoever. You don't even know enough about the topic to realize how terrible your "source" is for this. Salvia, DMT, and LSD are nothing alike. You can find garbage websites to support any contrarian opinion you want. Good job.
You're using what is essentially a cheap blog post to "debunk" a neuroscientist, pharmacologist, and chemist with PhD's from Cambridge who has dedicated his life to studying DMT. And all for what? "Ah-ha! DMT ISN'T THAT UNIQUE!" And you've now abandoned chemical structure as your comparison and are going to what, experience?
Evidence for what?! I never made any claims OTHER THAN THE EXPERIENCES PEOPLE REPORT. I am the one who pointed out that there won't be studies "validating" anything because it's a subjective experience inside someone's head. How the hell can there be anything other than trip reports like I've provided that make it obvious the experiences are radically different? Do you think there's some Neuralink implant to confirm something like this?
I posted a video of one of the most knowledgeable scientists studying DMT as he explains how markedly different DMT is from other psychedelics. If that isn't enough, what do you want? I have linked plenty of papers that you all could browse and see for yourself. I have pointed out multiple facts about the molecule that are unique, which are ignored, because none of you are engaging genuinely or without weird bias.
What is wrong with all of you? You're simultaneously experts on something none of you knew a single thing about an hour ago. And all to debunk claims that nobody has even made? You don't even understand what the reddit scrape study was, smh.
Ok, fine. You guys are right. DMT is not different from anything else. It's structurally similar to its analogues and that means they're the same. And that terrible rehab website with the cheaply outsourced SEO content that makes no sense is excellent evidence. Well done. This totally isn't a bunch of people doing everything possible to shut a discussion down for no reason. I asked what would be proof, more than once, "anything at all" or crickets.
"It says here that other drugs can make people hallucinate." Good stuff, Landru. Case closed.
He's saying "alien" in the sense that it's completely unfamiliar to our world model. Because it is. If you'd bother reading, he will explain exactly what's happening with the neuroscience involved and how DMT is puzzling. I'm done linking stuff, though. I don't want terms like "Hyperspace" to throw everyone off again.
He is agnostic on the origin of the entities or worlds, only explaining that it isn't yet explained. He has theories, but makes it clear they are just theories and guesses in the areas that we aren't able to figure out yet. But hey, I get it. It's a lot easier to "debunk" stuff when you disingenuously engage with everything. Sure, treat him like Bob Lazar or something.
Anyway, I think we need some more brainpower to debunk the jellyfish. Keep up the good work.
Gallimore's scientific credentials and research are relevant when limited to the empirical evidence we have about the experience of DMT adventures.
Not relevant to the issue of whether DMT adventures take you to other realities and put you in contact with intelligent beings. Real in the sense that they have an independent existence whether humans exist or not. That is a question that can't be addressed by science. His speculations on that issue put him into the general population.
My opinion of Gallimore's beliefs: Overvalued idea plus confirmation bias.
Scientists - or intelligent people in general - are not immune to odd ideas. There's some evidence that intelligent people are more prone to odd ideas. They're more creative and think more.
He's saying "alien" in the sense that it's completely unfamiliar to our world model. Because it is. If you'd bother reading, he will explain exactly what's happening with the neuroscience involved and how DMT is puzzling. I'm done linking stuff, though. I don't want terms like "Hyperspace" to throw everyone off again.
He is agnostic on the origin of the entities or worlds, only explaining that it isn't yet explained. He has theories, but makes it clear they are just theories and guesses in the areas that we aren't able to figure out yet.
Gallimore believes that the places and beings encountered during DMT adventures have an independent existence - as Africa and Africans exist, even though I've never been there. But he's an agnostic as to their nature. In other words he's not a member of the Jacques Vallée/Invisible Collège inter-dimensional beings UFO school of thought... but doesn't rule that out.
But the way this is stated uses an entirely different definition of "reality" from the one most of us use. In other words, what a person experiences has no claim to being called "the reality" he experiences. This is true whether or not a person has a mental illness, a head injury, severe intoxication, a near-death experience, or a chemically induced hallucination. I suggest we simply refer to it as an "experience" without perverting the definition of reality.
We already have the word "experience" for that. If the word "reality" is added to it, then what word do we use for the objective reality that we share?
Somewhere in this thread is the story of a person who told of strange happenings, but his companions at the time observed him having an epileptic seizure. The seizure was the "reality", and his impressions were the "experience". They're simply not the same thing.
Somewhere in this thread is the story of a person who told of strange happenings, but his companions at the time observed him having an epileptic seizure. The seizure was the "reality", and his impressions were the "experience"
Maybe I'm a rare case, but I can induce psychedelic type experience without taking anything. I'm also able to make images in my 'mind's eye' look almost real. It requires certain techniques and a lot of practice. It is actually possible to 'hallucinate' quite easily. To give but one basic example, close your eyes and imagine a darkened line crossing the centre of vision....with a little practice, a faint and fuzzy dark line will actually appear. You can even make it rotate, with a little practice. As its entirely subjective, I'm not saying this is something anyone can do, but its certainly part of my technique. No drugs whatever.
for some reason i keep ending up on the coast of Ireland today..so the line idea is off putting to the vibe. maybe ill sit on the ground and visualize a cairn or something i can rotate. will try later.
(ive never been a "fractal" person ..even when tripping. well at least not that ive ever taken note of, but will continue to try to make a line just for experimenting. )
This short clip was ambiguous, so I've been looking at YT videos to see what Gallimore is really saying. After a short while it was evident to me that he believes what this source says...
I've been pleading here and there on MB for a greater appreciation that the reality we experience is created moment by moment by our brain. That seems very unappreciated to me.
It doesn't feel real to me that DMT puts you in contact with a different reality - one that would exist without humans. It feels real to me that the brain with DMT is creating a personal reality. It's functioning in a different way, so the reality it creates is different. There are experiential similarities between people, because humans are similar.
If it feels real to someone else that you're in touch with a different reality on your DMT adventures... that's what you have to go with. Because I also think that we don't decide what we believe. It just happens. I have less than zero interest in trying to persuade you or anyone else otherwise. What if I'm wrong?
My aura is a C-shaped smear like the glittering of a Star Trek vessel going into cloak, or a Predator in cloak, which winds up obscuring my vision for up to half an hour. Experiencers can also have difficulty speaking after an aura.
Cultural interpretations of the experience may vary; there are some theories that these images inspired some ancient art, but who can know.
Someone who doesn't know their brain is misfiring may interpret the experience as a supernatural event. The uniformity of a particular type of aura across experiencers may cause people to believe they're experience similiar non-neurological events. My assumption would be that many of the drugs discussed in this thread cause similar neurological stimulation that the brain, as a whole, tries to interpret as a coherent experience, much like we try to enforce narratives on dreams.
FYI - I have had that on very rare occasions, but on only the first two or three was it followed by a severe headache. Then it was suggested to me that I immediately take an antihistamine when I start to see that. When I do so, I close my eyes for a few minutes while the jagged lines of the aura expand until they work their way out of my vision. I don't know if histamine itself is responsible for the aura, or if there are various things that could trigger a migraine, but you might want to try it.
considering i just fell asleep, i'm gonna say sleeping aid. in fact i might try it with insomnia.
@Scaramanga not sure still i understand "where" you are looking, but the only way i could do it is in that "just behind your eyelids space". didn't accomplish a "real" line (also not really sure what "almost real" means) but i got a "contrail shadow". so it's a start.
Look directly at a small light (such as an LED on a piece of electronic kit) before closing your eyes - your centre of vision is where the after image is.
I can also find it in the absolute dark by scrunching my eyelids tight, putting pressure on my eyeballs, and then releasing. There's a non-uniform pattern left, and the centre of it aligns with where my fractal/tunnel patterns spiral around.
When I have severe sleep troubles, it's almost not an option. For me it's associated with hypnagogia and hypnopompia. If I know they're coming, I play with them.
