Mauro
Senior Member
If this is the evidence, you just cited evidence for alien abductions (and religious/near death experiences) to be just hallucinations, which is a stance me (and many skeptics) already take.
Last edited:
Diana W. Pasulka - aliens & religion & other dimensions (JRE podcast #2091)
- Thread starter Bronek
- Start date
And yet, you persist, despite considering this pointless...
Your post #108: (emphasis mine)
Followed by your post #119. (emphasis mine)
Please post the link address, as per No-Click policy/posting guidelines.
Once I was happy it was a safe and more reputable site: https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-022-11999-8#Sec6 it opened at the results section, as included below. (I need to revisit the article later, with more time to hand to digest the content, and questionnaires used.)
Results
A total of 30,652 r/DMT reddit posts were identified and screened over the 10-year period from 2009 to 2018, of which 3305 posts containing 3778 unique inhaled N, N-DMT experiences were included in this study (see Fig. 1). Two-thousand nine-hundred and thirty-four posts (88.8%) included a report of a single experience, 297 posts (9.0%) included two experiences, and 74 posts (2.2%) included 3 or more experiences.
The included 3305 posts were created by 2277 Reddit authors, with a median age at the time of the N, N-DMT experience of 23.0 years [interquartile range (IQR), 20.0 to 29.8; reported in 118 experiences (3.1%)], and a median word count of 311 (IQR, 160.0 to 568.0; see Table 1). The gender of the author was identified in 237 experiences (6.3%), including 189 males (5.0%) and 48 females (1.3%). The location in which the experience occurred was reported in 1138 experiences (30.1%), of which the location was most frequently inside (n = 969, 25.6%) within a bedroom or living room (n = 492, 13.0%); while 169 experiences (4.5%) were reported as occurring outside. Music was reportedly used in 408 experiences (10.8%) and the presence or absence of a sitter was identified in 948 experiences (25.1%); of which 157 experiences (4.2%) were completed alone.
Thank you for now acknowledging that there are studies, replete with statistics, and have gone so far as to actually source them for our edification, given you've spent several posts arguing your point without providing the substance, pouting that we haven't clicked all your links (instead of supplying the content, as per PG), and getting uppity at being called on it,
I'll give a tick to @FatPhil
with a wee tangential nod for @Ann K
I'm falling on John J's side of this argument:
All that to say, I've ignored my own best practice, to stop feeding the sea-lions!
https://wondermark.com/c/1062/
FatPhil
Senior Member.
Ahh, the thread has moved under my feet, so I had to scroll back, and I came across that before I could see which post it was part of.
"Therefore a star can appear between the lights, in particular of those lights are mounted on extremities, which is pretty common on aeroplanes."
That, sir, is litotes. I am literally saying "everyone knows, or at least should know, this to be the case (but whoever I am disagreeing with seems to have overlooked it)". Does everyone know that? I don't know. But I do know a lot of people agreed with that post, and therefore what I said couldn't have been that contrarian. As you can tell, I quite like litotes - that's 2 more instances! But whether a few metabunkers know or not is relatively unimportant, maybe they've never seen a plane, the important thing is whether the FAA and the aircraft manufacturers know it - and they should do as it's the *freaking law*:
-- https://www.govinfo.gov/content/pkg/CFR-2010-title14-vol1/pdf/CFR-2010-title14-vol1-sec23-1389.pdf(b) Left and right position lights. Left
and right position lights must consist
of a red and a green light spaced lat-
erally as far apart as practicable and
installed on the airplane such that,
with the airplane in the normal flying
position, the red light is on the left
side and the green light is on the right
side.
(c) Rear position light. The rear posi-
tion light must be a white light mount-
ed as far aft as practicable on the tail
or on each wing tip.
You don't have to be hallucinating to see "extremities" in that.
Last edited:
Area 51/50
Member
I'll take the word of neuroscientists who state otherwise over yours.
I said people report seeing specific deities in their trips, many of which weren't previously known to the experiencer. This, for some reason, is heresy. I referred specifically to online reports, meaning trip reports, which are apparently inadmissible as anything. For some reason, the minds of MB think there exist scientific studies that validate subjective experiences like this.
psikiwi,
That wasn't the "point" and the paper I cited is using nothing more than random reddit reports, something I was chided for earlier by the posters ITT. The contention was people seeing deities who've never seen them before, something that the paper does not distinguish. And more importantly, something I wasn't saying studies existed for. I also never "pouted" that people didn't click links of mine. I noted that the person laughing at the source was unlikely to be basing his understanding of the DMT space on anything better (spoiler: he wasn't).
It's odd to me that so-called truth seekers would insult me for "pouting" in this instance and not chide the person ignoring clear evidence against his stances. No idea why so much hostility for something so benign, especially repeatedly twisting my words into some point I'm desperate to prove. Everything I said is related to what I've seen others report from their subjective experiences. The "study" posted does not prove/disprove anything either way. Am I required to produce scientific studies to validate what I've personally read among hundreds to thousands of scattered reports over the years?
Beyond that, FYI, uppity is an offensive term with a racist connotation. It also doesn't apply to me in this situation. I plainly stated what I was referring to initially: self-reported experiences I'd read online. I never said there were scientific reports to validate anything. In fact, I said otherwise. And despite your interpretation of the reddit paper, there isn't. What I provided was a small % of reports that people sifted through to quantify; it's not representative of everyone's experience and doesn't factor in reports that result in nothing. I'm sure they note the selection bias of the sample somewhere in there since people are way more likely to share entity encounters online than trips without. You see the same thing with Yelp reviews and such.
And again, reddit reports were previously laughed at, so I'm unsure why people sifting through a bunch of them changes things now? Because a paper summarized a very small % of them into quantifiable data, it's now indelible science? I also don't see anybody asking for this kind of evidence from Scaramanga, who has made claims that are in direct conflict with tons of the reports you're now considering evidence. Perhaps the confirmation bias on your end should be acknowledged? Or at least revise your attitude that I am "pouting" by questioning why he's specifically ignoring the evidence I link against his claims (in good faith, not to "win" or prove a point, I might add).
My claim was that plenty of people have experienced similar specifics in their trips and that the DMT space has lots of similarities to "alien abductions", including the classic Grey aliens themselves. I was then demanded to show scientific studies that exclude those kinds of reports. That's unreasonable. Now you're telling me those reports are indeed science. Well done.
Still unsure why that caused the stir it did, especially with it culminating in, "Yeah, well, lots of agree with that!"
Also I am not the sealion here.
Phil,
I fail to see a difference in our usage of these descriptors then, other than your standards of rigor are only applied in my direction. These are known commonalities to those familiar with the molecule. Those just now Googling it are likely to think otherwise, I guess.
Anyway, I'll be disengaging with the convo as I find it unhelpful to anybody. Cheers.
Last edited:
John J.
Senior Member.
I don't think neuroscientists disagree that taking a known hallucinogen can cause hallucinations,
or that the resultant hallucinations are caused by taking the hallucinogen.
I think most would agree that no other mechanism is needed.
But if you find a decent practising neuroscientist who says otherwise, and that DMT can take your mind, independent of your body, to literal (not metaphorical) different dimensions or "hyperspace", where you can acquire novel information that you wouldn't have known before, it would be interesting.
Area 51/50
Member
Is disingenuously reframing the argument a staple in MB discourse? It sure seems to happen an awful lot when the crowd disagrees with something. Again, not something I expected from the members here.
I said: "Our current understanding of modern neuroscience doesn't explain these Hyperspace interactions." You said that it does. Now you're pretending it's about whether neuroscientists agree that DMT is the mechanism/catalyst to these interactions? Uh, nobody debates that part, obviously. What is contested is whether we have an explanation for some of these interactions, which our current understanding of neuroscience doesn't provide. There is a lot that has been sufficiently explained, but not all. And again, we can't even explain consciousness so it seems silly to believe we've solved an experience like this. And I even specified that it doesn't mean we won't be able to in the future.
"You took a hallucinogen" is not actually explaining anything. It's as much of an explanation as breaking down flight by telling someone, "you sit down in a seat in this metal thing at the airport and arrive elsewhere in a few hours." In reality, explaining flight would require a breakdown of aviation mechanics, e.g., drag, lift, thrust, etc.
I'm pretty sure we've been taking acetaminophen for a century plus without fully understanding how it works, only knowing that it does. Is it your contention that this is clearly incorrect because nobody debates that when you ingest Tylenol, the resultant analgesic effects are caused by ingesting the Tylenol?
Now you're going a step further in that I have to find a neuroscientist who claims it projects our mind into literal different dimensions, something I never once said? I referenced returning with real information once, I believe, and I specified "purportedly" because it's not a verified occurrence, obviously. And that has somehow morphed into my contention that this is what neuroscientists are validating as part of the experience. Weird stuff.
My claim was that our current understanding of modern neuroscience doesn't explain [some of] these Hyperspace interactions. That's it.
I said: "Our current understanding of modern neuroscience doesn't explain these Hyperspace interactions." You said that it does. Now you're pretending it's about whether neuroscientists agree that DMT is the mechanism/catalyst to these interactions? Uh, nobody debates that part, obviously. What is contested is whether we have an explanation for some of these interactions, which our current understanding of neuroscience doesn't provide. There is a lot that has been sufficiently explained, but not all. And again, we can't even explain consciousness so it seems silly to believe we've solved an experience like this. And I even specified that it doesn't mean we won't be able to in the future.
"You took a hallucinogen" is not actually explaining anything. It's as much of an explanation as breaking down flight by telling someone, "you sit down in a seat in this metal thing at the airport and arrive elsewhere in a few hours." In reality, explaining flight would require a breakdown of aviation mechanics, e.g., drag, lift, thrust, etc.
I'm pretty sure we've been taking acetaminophen for a century plus without fully understanding how it works, only knowing that it does. Is it your contention that this is clearly incorrect because nobody debates that when you ingest Tylenol, the resultant analgesic effects are caused by ingesting the Tylenol?
Now you're going a step further in that I have to find a neuroscientist who claims it projects our mind into literal different dimensions, something I never once said? I referenced returning with real information once, I believe, and I specified "purportedly" because it's not a verified occurrence, obviously. And that has somehow morphed into my contention that this is what neuroscientists are validating as part of the experience. Weird stuff.
My claim was that our current understanding of modern neuroscience doesn't explain [some of] these Hyperspace interactions. That's it.
Last edited:
Everyone. Let's stay on topic and keep personal references to a minimum please.
deirdre
Senior Member.
so if youre "no longer on Earth, brother" and get eaten alive by leopards ..how do you make it back into your body?
Does the soul surgery like take out your alcohol addictions?
Article: After DMT injection, those networks appeared to break down, meaning that overall brain connectivity increased. This aligns with a previous study of the brain response to psilocybin published by senior author Robin Carhart-Harris. The most significant changes were detected in brain areas linked to high-level cognitive functions like imagination.
Ann K
Senior Member.
That phrase needs translating for me. What do you mean when you say that?
Area 51/50
Member
The experience fades and you return to this world? I don't necessarily believe you've left your body (or find it to be an important distinction). During a breakthrough, you're essentially unconscious in this world, or at least oblivious to it. DMT builds a completely different world model that you experience with the same qualia of this reality. Well, it's commonly described as "realer than real", although I don't have raw data on everyone who has said that.
In this stable reality, our eyes aren't seeing what's really there, so to speak; they're detecting electromagnetic waves, throwing that raw data into our brains (technically, I actually think they're connected, with our eyes being a part of our brain that extends outside of the skull). Our noodle then does it's best to translate this data into the "reality" we're just visualizing in our heads. Color isn't an inherent property of these objects, only a perception we build from this interpretation of the light spectrum. Unless you're a mantis shrimp, which I suspect some of you just might be (kidding), we only see something like 3% of this spectrum. I am sure none of this is new information to folks reading, but to me, it reminds me of how little we might be privy to in this whole experience of ours.
To me, experiencing something completely different from our base reality makes me think consciousness is fundamental, not an emergent property of physical matter in each of our heads. Essentially, consciousness would be building the world model, not a property within us simply experiencing what's there. But this is just some fun idea that I don't think much about.
Again, we do not fully understand consciousness in the first place. It seems ignorant and egotistical to assume we fully understand everything that shakes up the conscious experience like DMT. You're asking how you make it back into your body, but ignoring that we can't explain how *you* (your subjective experience, personality, soul, whatever) got there in the first place. So again, I can't explain it, and I maintain that neuroscientists aren't in agreement they can, either. But people report being eaten alive in this other space by different beings. I haven't had that experience so I can't describe it better than that. Sorry.
From my perspective, as a layman, nothing should be able to do what DMT does, haha. It doesn't make sense to me that we'd evolve to have our brains construct a different world entirely and experience something so real, yet "hallucinated." And the fact that something can replace this world with one teeming with seemingly hyperintelligent, autonomous beings just makes me question how "real" this experience is. Not in a paranoid, fearful way, but with curiosity. How is one world hallucinated, but the other isn't? If something could suspend me in the DMT state forever, wouldn't that just be called "reality?"
It seems odd to call these "drug-induced fantasies" when our entire experience is influenced by "drugs" -- only we refer to them as things like endorphins, neurotransmitters (which DMT might as well be classified as), and other chemicals we naturally produce. I mean, your brain is a fancy guessing machine as to what reality is, residing in a body that is endogenously producing DMT as we speak. Why? We don't know yet, although DMT has been shown to protect cells during hypoxia, IIRC.
Sorry, this quickly became longer than I intended. I guess I just want to stress that I was never trying to tell anybody here anything about anything. I was relaying the reports of others, which definitely exist throughout the web. And I also maintain that the hundreds of reports you can find online, many of which I linked, confirm that classic aliens and mantids are a prominent feature in DMT land. So I think that whatever DMT land is, whether hallucinations or something else, could be related to "the phenomenon" in some way. That's it.
Regarding soul surgery and addictions: people have reported ayahuasca and DMT helping them with major issues like that, although I have no personal experience. A friend of mine did ayahuasca and said it was the only thing that helped her get over her brother being murdered, but she didn't elaborate and I didn't press. I don't want to reference vague things I've read because I'll be expected to show studies that don't exist.
However, an extremely intense psychedelic with seriously mind-blowing results re: addiction is Ibogaine. It's results with opiate addiction are truly remarkable. Throw that into the Google machine if interested.
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/28402682/
Conclusion: A single ibogaine treatment reduced opioid withdrawal symptoms and achieved opioid cessation or sustained reduced use in dependent individuals as measured over 12 months. Ibogaine's legal availability in New Zealand may offer improved outcomes where legislation supports treatment providers to work closely with other health professionals.
The interactions I referenced prior to that statement, including the links I provided that display search results to specific trip reports. For instance, people interacting with beings like Anubis or Ganesh that had no prior knowledge of them. I tried introducing this and was shut down. I noted that it doesn't translate well through text. You may have to see for yourself, I guess.
As I said earlier, I don't think there's any "ineffable" experience you can't reduce to "that's just my brain" or "drug-induced fantasies." I don't claim they aren't just that. I just don't really enjoy the position of being expected to explain/prove things when I was never trying to in the first place.
You're asking me to translate the phrase, but when I have mentioned what people report, I'm demanded to show proof. Proof of what? That someone experienced something which took place entirely in their mind? Proof that they'd never heard of an Egyptian deity? Much like "other dimensions", these aren't really falsifiable claims, but I believed could be discussed without ridicule. If you already know more than me, which is that these experiences are obviously BS or easily explained, what's the point in engaging?
Hyperspace is what people refer to as the DMT space. Seemingly sentient, autonomous beings inhabit this space. You can interact with them, although you are not in control, they are. I am not an expert on this and don't pretend to be. There is a wealth of information on DMT, including full documentaries, that can explain stuff better than I can.
Here is an interesting page called the Hyperspace lexicon:
It's from a forum comprised of experienced psychonauts, many of whom are talented IRL chemists. The linked page documents many parts of the experience that their members considered common enough to name and write down. It may help you paint a clearer image in your head of what some of this is like. You can browse trip reports in their forum, too.
The Hyperspace Lexicon consists of two main sections: the vocabulary and entities. The vocabulary is here to make a compilation of phrases to better understand and describe hyperspace journeys for both the layman and advanced hyperspace travelers. The entities section is all about classification of various intelligent creatures one can encounter in Hyperspace.
Or with legally obtainable materials and grade school chemistry, you can extract it and go there to ask questions yourself...
BE SURE ANND TELL 'EM LARGE MARGE SENT YA! AHAH AHAHA HAHAHAH!!
Last edited:
deirdre
Senior Member.
While i agree with you that critieria of evidence is not applied consistently on this forum, the point of engaging is that this is a debunking site. The point of Metabunk is to take the bunk out of claims so that people can use that info to make more accurate decisions in life.
For ex if the claim is you literally travel to another world but get eaten alive, then obviously whatever part that traveled there got eaten alive is now dead. So that dead part, whether soul or body cant come back. or it didnt really get eaten alive in the first place. So i'm thinking -just my opinion of course- that one of those 1.literally travelled or 2 got eaten alive, is bunk.
although i would prefer if the people who claim they lliterally travelled to another world and got eaten alive, actually DO believe it was real. Then hopefully they wont take DMT anymore..as getting eaten alive in another world or in a dream would seriously suck.
Area 51/50
Member
If we're entertaining the idea of hallucinations being the "debunk" to alien abductions, I consider DMT a pretty decent suggestion, despite much of it still being a mystery. What isn't really debated is that people experience these worlds when on a breakthrough dose of DMT and they are not a clear "hallucination" when you're in there. To me, that puts the experience in the "real" category, so to speak, but to each their own.
Anyway, the claim wouldn't be that you literally travel anywhere. It's just that you can experience something like that with the same realness that you experience this world with. The brain is building the world you're in right now to the best of its ability. DMT catalyzes a completely different world model and you experience it like you do this one. No longer on Earth is in reference to severing your conscious connection to this realm, not literal traveling. It's quite something, but difficult to describe.
There are many people who do indeed don't go back after certain experiences. Or take years and years off before returning. I've seen some relay the experience of being eaten as not entirely painful or terrifying; they just "let go." Some of the reports I've read are more terrifying to me than others, but most are relaying a mind-blowingly beautiful experience. It's as explainable as this reality, I guess.
In Rick Strassman's book The Spirit Molecule (which John Mack provides an epigraph for*), he documents several patients he administers DMT to via IV in a clinical setting. One of the male subjects experiences a traumatic rape by what I believe were crocodile-like entities. I think they subjects were monitored with thermometers in their rectum, which always made me question if that influenced the trip. Anyway, he quit the study then, poor guy.
* to further drive home the link between DMT experiences and alien abductions, here's an excerpt from the book:
The DMT/abduction connection isn't new, even with specifics to other dimensions. These clinical DMT sessions took place in 1995, I believe.
Edit: If the Rogan episode is the focus, this discussion might be too OT for the thread so I'll disengage. Thanks for the chat, folks. I found another thread with someone asking about what is clearly a "biblically accurate angel" who doesn't seem to know about it. I find it neat, but not conclusive evidence of anything, of course. Cheers.
Anyway, the claim wouldn't be that you literally travel anywhere. It's just that you can experience something like that with the same realness that you experience this world with. The brain is building the world you're in right now to the best of its ability. DMT catalyzes a completely different world model and you experience it like you do this one. No longer on Earth is in reference to severing your conscious connection to this realm, not literal traveling. It's quite something, but difficult to describe.
There are many people who do indeed don't go back after certain experiences. Or take years and years off before returning. I've seen some relay the experience of being eaten as not entirely painful or terrifying; they just "let go." Some of the reports I've read are more terrifying to me than others, but most are relaying a mind-blowingly beautiful experience. It's as explainable as this reality, I guess.
In Rick Strassman's book The Spirit Molecule (which John Mack provides an epigraph for*), he documents several patients he administers DMT to via IV in a clinical setting. One of the male subjects experiences a traumatic rape by what I believe were crocodile-like entities. I think they subjects were monitored with thermometers in their rectum, which always made me question if that influenced the trip. Anyway, he quit the study then, poor guy.
* to further drive home the link between DMT experiences and alien abductions, here's an excerpt from the book:
The next few paragraphs go on to note the many extreme similarities between them and wraps up with this:
The DMT/abduction connection isn't new, even with specifics to other dimensions. These clinical DMT sessions took place in 1995, I believe.
Edit: If the Rogan episode is the focus, this discussion might be too OT for the thread so I'll disengage. Thanks for the chat, folks. I found another thread with someone asking about what is clearly a "biblically accurate angel" who doesn't seem to know about it. I find it neat, but not conclusive evidence of anything, of course. Cheers.
Last edited:
Scaramanga
Senior Member
I've seen a lot of the fractals and rapid moving geometric patterns of DMT....without ever taking DMT or any other drug. They are a classic part of what is known as hypnagogic imagery. I've experienced this very often, including complex fast moving patterns. Very similar to stage 1 of a DMT trip. I've never seen any 'aliens' or entities...however quite often the rapid moving fractals do have an almost 'alive' sense to them.
I've seen hundreds of drawings of hypnagogic imagery....but many of them don't quite capture it. But this one is quite a good approximation...
[unexplained link removed]
Last edited by a moderator:
Mauro
Senior Member
If anyone is in the mood, you can read about a poor guy being eaten alive in hyperspace in a short 1920 story by H.P. Lovecraft, "From Beyond", even if the poor guy entered hyperspace (in a dream-like state, his body asleep in a room) by using an electrical device and not DMT, which had not yet been discovered in 1920, I guess. Phantasy, instead, was very much alive even at that time, as apparently is today.
Just a quote:
Last edited:
Ann K
Senior Member.
Wikipedia refers to "hyperspace" as faster-than-light travel, or higher dimensions, or parallel universes, all of these terms as used in science fiction. I think it unwise to use sci-fi terms if you're discussing real effects, because it renders your description unintelligible. I still can't see DMT experiences as being different in kind from those induced by other hallucinogenic substances.
John J.
Senior Member.
Hopefully we're all adults here, but I don't think this is good advice
(maybe it was meant as a humorous aside, in which case I apologise).
Synthesizing drugs can be problematic, and dangerous, as was found with the accidental manufacture of MPTP:
Parkinson's disease is of course unpleasant to put it mildly; Lewy body dementia is really unpleasant and life-limiting.
The neurotoxicity of MPTP was hinted at in 1976 after Barry Kidston, a 23-year-old chemistry graduate student in Maryland, US, synthesized MPPP with MPTP as a major impurity and self-injected the result. Within three days he began exhibiting symptoms of Parkinson's disease. The National Institute of Mental Health found traces of MPTP and other pethidine analogs in his lab. They tested the substances on rats, but due to rodents' tolerance for this type of neurotoxin, nothing was observed. Kidston's Parkinsonism was treated with levodopa but he died 18 months later from a cocaine overdose. Upon autopsy, Lewy bodies and destruction of dopaminergic neurons in the substantia nigra were discovered.[10][11]
(Edit: Sorry, forgot to include source/ link; Wikipedia, MPTP, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MPTP)
In 1983, four people in Santa Clara County, California, US, were diagnosed with Parkinsonism after having used MPPP contaminated with MPTP, and as many as 120 were reported to have been diagnosed with Parkinson's symptoms.[12] The neurologist J. William Langston in collaboration with NIH tracked down MPTP as the cause, and its effects on primates were researched. After performing neural grafts of fetal tissue on three of the patients at Lund University Hospital in Sweden, the motor symptoms of two of the three patients were successfully treated, and the third showed partial recovery.[13][14]
Langston documented the case in his 1995 book The Case of the Frozen Addicts,[15] which was later featured in two NOVA productions by PBS, re-aired in the UK on the BBC science series Horizon.[16]
Last edited:
Todd Feinman
Active Member
This is an excellent example of what one sees on some psychedelic drugs such as LSD (not an admission of use). One does not experience meeting seemingly independent entities on many psychedelics; mostly one sees fractal-like geometric imagery based on free association from past memories / experiences:I've seen a lot of the fractals and rapid moving geometric patterns of DMT....without ever taking DMT or any other drug. They are a classic part of what is known as hypnagogic imagery. I've experienced this very often, including complex fast moving patterns. Very similar to stage 1 of a DMT trip. I've never seen any 'aliens' or entities...however quite often the rapid moving fractals do have an almost 'alive' sense to them.
I've seen hundreds of drawings of hypnagogic imagery....but many of them don't quite capture it. But this one is quite a good approximation...
[unexplained link removed]
[unexplained video removed]
DMT seems pretty different from these other drugs.
Last edited by a moderator:
John J.
Senior Member.
I think I've read that the traditional substances used by Amazonian shamans (if that's the word, my knowledge of South American cultures is shamefully limited) cause them to meet with anthropomorphic creatures / hybrid beings.
[Admittedly "I think I read" is not exactly MB-standard information sourcing.]
Todd Feinman
Active Member
I think you're right. Things like Datura and Sonoran Desert Toad secretions apparently can produce experiences with "entities". It seems that DMT in particular produces "entity" experiences more than other drugs; it is the major feature reported by users, from what I've read and from 51/50, too.
They're called "Pajé" in their own language, Tupi-Guarani, the same language which gave: arara, capybara, macaque, tamandua, cocoa, açai, cashew...But saying shaman is fine, as it's already a borrowed word related to Siberian priests, and it's commonly used to refer to North American native healers anyway. For instance, in Navajo they call their shaman, hataalii (singer).
source: https://pt.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pajé
The pajé or pagé[1] is a prominent person among certain indigenous peoples of South America. They are healers, considered to be bearers of occult powers, or spiritual guides.
source: https://www.etymonline.com/word/shaman
shaman (n.)
1690s, "priest of the Ural-Altaic peoples of northern Asia," probably via German Schamane, from Russian sha'man, from Tungus saman, which, according to OED is perhaps from Chinese sha men "Buddhist monk," from Prakrit samaya-, from Sanskrit sramana-s "Buddhist ascetic." Extended to "similar personages in other parts" (OED), especially native Americans. Related: Shamanic.
also from 1690s
Entries linking to shaman
shamanism (n.)
the general name applied to the religion of the inhabitants of northern Siberia, 1780, from shaman (q.v.) + -ism. Related: Shamanistic.
Area 51/50
Member
I didn't use "sci-fi terms." I used the specific terminology used by psychonauts to describe the DMT space. I linked you to an entire glossary of DMT-specific terms so you'd be more familiar with what we're discussing. Why you went to Wikipedia instead, I'm unsure. If we can juggle "sports model" and "jellyfish" and "chandelier" without confusion, I'm sure we can handle Hyperspace.
https://wiki.dmt-nexus.me/Hyperspace_lexicon#HyperspaceHyperspace
The place you go to after breakthrough, can be any place and time imaginable. Where the impossible can easily happen, extreme geometric explosions of color, sound, emotions, information, also the feeling of it being hyperreal.
If it's impossible for you to understand that Hyperspace refers to the DMT realm, we may be at an impasse. But you're requesting that I abandon well-established DMT terminology instead of familiarizing yourself with the glossary provided. I don't think that's reasonable or beneficial to the discussion. If this is still unintelligible to you, I often just refer to it as the DMT space or realm.
Ok.
John,
There is no synthesis involved and the process is extremely safe. You are only extracting DMT from powdered root bark. With that being said, I am not recommending anybody extract anything or ingest anything. The focal point is that if you don't have the experience yourself, you're reliant on what others say. If you discount everything others say, there's only one alternative.
The traditional substance you're referring to being used by indigenous tribes is indeed DMT. Unlike freebase, which is vaporized and inhaled, they combine the DMT-laden root bark with a jungle plant serving as an MAOI (often B. caapi, IIRC). This is boiled in a brew called ayahuasca, which is drunk.
With vaporized DMT, the MAO in your body breaks down the molecule quickly, with trips lasting 5-20 minutes. With the MAOI preventing the breakdown, trips last for hours. It's also known to make you purge, often from both ends. Western folks often concoct a similar blend called pharmahuasca, but it's just the DMT and MAOI, no purging.
Todd,
Perhaps you know this already, but datura is technically a deliriant, not a classic hallucinogen. From what I've read, it's extremely unpleasant and has a long history of occult use. The drug Scopolamine comes from Datura (or other members of the nightshade family) and is often used to drug and rob people in places like Colombia. It's called "getting scoped" if I'm remembering right.
The Sonoran Desert toad, also known as the Colorado River toad, secretes 5-MeO-DMT and bufotenin. 5-MeO-DMT is a lot different than N,N-DMT. Although you can see entities sometimes, it's reportedly far, far less colorful and psychedelic, often described as all white.
People refer to MeO as The God Molecule. Regarding intensity, it's considered a level above N,N by most; many consider it the most "potent" psychedelic as far as experience (by true potency, as in volume/weight, I think it's LSD since you're dealing in micrograms). It's often not a "pleasant" trip and more like a hard factory reset, often with you dying and being reborn. It's not something people usually do very often or many times. It's also unique in that it often provides full flashbacks over the next few weeks, which are often traumatizing for the user. Like you'll be in the kitchen a week later and suddenly experience a "reactivation."
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC9745201/
Descriptions of flashbacks include perceptual, somatic, or emotional sensations that were first experienced during the acute psychedelic state. These transient after-effects have been described as ranging from delusions to pleasant bodily sensations and perceptual illusions, to feelings of serenity, relaxation, and a sense of being “one with the world” (39).
It's also different in that you can easily overdose on it and die; too much causes respiratory arrest. People seem to either forget how to breathe or just don't feel like putting in the effort. Most of what you can get is synthesized now, thankfully, because the toads numbers were being reduced. Poor frogs.
The hypnagogic images linked by Scaramanga aren't really close to DMT from my experience, but to just see images like that, we're talking low dose with closed-eye visuals. Here's an artist named INCEDIGRIS that does great artwork that resembles CEVs, although they're moving around and forming impossible shapes.
But a breakthrough dose and you're in a different world entirely, not just looking at it.
https://wiki.dmt-nexus.me/Hyperspace_lexicon#Surgery.2C_Soul
A recurring, quite common theme of deep entheogenic journeys, where the traveler experiences being partially disassembled and operated upon by otherworldly 'doctors' or machinery. It may be a positive experience of care and healing, or in other situations evoke disturbing connotations. Clinical, 'sci-fi' themes and environments are quite common to these visions, and there is a notable parallel with alien abduction reports.
https://www.dmt-nexus.me/forum/default.aspx?g=posts&t=34674
I often get the sensation that my soul is undergoing repairs. Like I'm a robot that's been shut down while a scientist probes my circuits from the back of where my skull would be. This realization often feels like an awakening, like I'm waking up on the operating table.
https://wiki.dmt-nexus.me/Hyperspace_lexicon#Aliens
While all of these beings are technically aliens, these guys strike you immediately as being alien. They are so different from us as to be outside of our myths, or at least their minds feel far more foreign than other sorts of entities you encounter. Often you come to them in their own realms when you pop out on the other side of a Hyperspace journey. Equally often, they might come to you. They are generally not as scary as they look, but more interested in studying how far we humans have come. These guys include the insectoids (like the Praying Mantis), the reptilians (of various sorts), and more amorphous and nebulous intelligences.
https://wiki.dmt-nexus.me/Hyperspace_lexicon#Aliens.2C_Local
Can be any kind, but the usual suspects pop up as well. The higher one is, the higher levels and vibrational frequency entities one is likely to be able to see. One might see the stereotypical Greys lurking about, but often one can actually see two or three levels of aliens who are watching and observing THEM. Maybe Greys have their own Angels and Buddhas. Who knows? The more interesting ones, though can be vast. Big as the moon vast. If you can actually see these guys, then they become immediately VERY interested in you.
https://www.dmt-nexus.me/forum/default.aspx?g=posts&m=701729#post701729
I have had a few alien abduction type experiences that are quite familiar to anyone who has read about more famous abduction cases. I am in a domed room, filled with weird organic technology (sound familiar), surrounded by alien/mantis type beings, who are looking at me with interest. I am laid on a reclining examination table. Sometimes, a female "alien" comes and caresses me and gives me a lap dance (sound familiar), maybe to get my sperm? I am hooked up to the room, which is a giant computer, and they are poking around my brain with their tendrils.
The most intriguing aspect of these abduction experiences? After their operation or study is over, I am unplugged, the rummaging through my head stops, and the trip is abruptly over. They have even waved goodbye to me.
Anyway, DMT is different. It's likely to change the way you think about everything. I honestly think y'all would be more receptive to the whole interdimensional super-aliens or whatever after the fact. Or at least less firm about dismissing such concepts, haha.
Last edited:
deirdre
Senior Member.
that's an unfortunate label, eh?
They won't.
besides only 17% of Reddit posts allegedly saw aliens.
Article: aliens (n = 281, 16.3%);
and less than half allegedly saw anything 'entity based'
Article: Entity encounters were reported in 45.5% (n = 1719)
Based on all the similar hoopla we occasionally heard/read about shrooms and lsd back in day, vs. real life experience with many many users ..(Grateful Dead shows etc) 95%-99% of users understand their experiences are just side effects of the drugs.
ps. even fractals are way over hyped.
Dont come to a skeptics forum and get frustrated if we don't believe you met real live entities in another realm. And i guarantee you that includes any members who would be willing to try DMT. They are going to understand that what they saw was just a side effect of the drug.
Todd Feinman
Active Member
51/50, if you could test the entities by asking questions of them that could reveal verifiable information that was previously unknown (as mentioned before), then that would be interesting to the skeptics here.
Ann K
Senior Member.
"psychonauts"????
"A psychonaut is a person who explores the psyche by altering their state of consciousness, often through the use of psychoactive substances and other techniques or practices."
Like I said....
deirdre
Senior Member.
apparently you can't, or someone would have already done that.
Area 51/50
Member
There's no reason to misrepresent my argument like this. I said nothing of the sort and I'm not trying to convince anyone of anything, much less that I "met real live entities in another realm." If you don't believe that people have these experiences, you aren't being skeptical, you're just ignoring something fully established.
My only frustration has been this kind of misrepresentation and overall stubbornness in the replies. Not stubbornness to accept aliens or something, but the whole, "I don't even know what DMT is, but trust me, it's nothing us skeptics couldn't correctly understand is just a drug!"
Yes, I have no doubt that you can all decide something isn't possible, no matter what, and never budge. I just don't confuse it with careful analysis or logical reasoning because it isn't. The inability to engage with an idea without totally misrepresenting it also isn't too impressive to me, either.
Why are you repeatedly singling me out like it's me against you skeptics? I am somehow not a skeptic or grounded in reality because I'm not rudely dismissive of things I don't understand? Being a skeptic doesn't mean immediately shutting down discussion or demanding proof of something that wasn't claimed as proven. You realize you can hang back and ask questions in good faith, too, right? It's not a bad strategy when you know nothing about a topic.
No, DMT is not like every other psychedelic. It's the opposite of that. Again, hardcore atheists are known to return with that foundation rattled. These aren't dumb people who didn't realize they ingested a drug, bro. No, mantids and Greys are not missing from the space, they're prominent features.
I also don't think the numbers you quoted mean anything. What are you even saying? Only half of those encounters had entity contact? Only 17% were "aliens?" I don't follow the logic. If I only run into my friends half the time I go to the mall, they're not real? "Alien" is a red herring anyway as it's likely describing the dude in my avatar. Why would we not call all of them aliens when we're oblivious as to what NHI would resemble?
I'm not trying to convince the "skeptics" of anything and am happy to let the thread die. But the idea that entities would be down to field math questions or something has always been silly to me. Why would we assume they know about or care about this kind of stuff? What happened to the whole, "We don't even have an alien to compare things to?" Now we're deciding they can solve prime numbers or let us know if the Lakers will beat the spread?
From what I've read, I don't think they'd be down, especially when they often appear to have their own agenda and plans with us. They are absolutely control freaks, though. And again, seriously, some... of... them... are... malevolent. They also don't appear to be from our world. It's pretty clear that if they are real, they aren't clamoring to blow their own cover. More importantly, I thought we were discussing the likelihood these entities could be related to the interdimensional characters responsible for abductions? It doesn't require them being "real" or "interdimensional", only that this phenomenon is somehow triggered for the abductees.
Regardless, even so, it would be reduced to something materialistic because it's already decided they aren't real. Humans have hit their head to the point they began seeing fractals and could suddenly perform high-level math. I asked previously what ineffable experience could people have that couldn't be explained away? I'm still curious. What do y'all have in mind that'd prove to you they are "real" figures, separate from us?
Someone ping me if any of you venture in there. Maybe you can setup a game of 3 Card Monte and test the Grey's intelligence. Or maybe start with something light and pull a quarter from their ear. Hope everyone is having a great weekend.
Last edited:
Area 51/50
Member
Yes? Sorry, I am again unsure what is confusing you.
Todd Feinman
Active Member
it hasn't stopped folks from trying, over the centuries! If you look at the history of magical practices, there were even techniques developed used to test the spirits, when scrying. I find it all fascinating. But if the spirits could predict lottery numbers...apparently you can't, or someone would have already done that.
Ann K
Senior Member.
Like I said ... hallucinogens produce hallucinations. End of story.
Ann K
Senior Member.
Citation seriously needed, from a reliable source and not a woo-publication. Compare with other hallucinogens, please. With statistics! And if you can't produce that, our discussion is at an end.
Last edited:
deirdre
Senior Member.
I believe they believe they have these experiences.
all i said was 'dont get frustrated'. You sound frustrated, but maybe i am misinterpreting that.
yea well you know DMT, and i know (as much about) the skeptics on this site
you sound awfully stubborn about refusing to believe me.
FatPhil
Senior Member.
They're still sci-fi terms, even if others have adopted them for other purposes later. None of those terms in that glossary had a date of coinage or a citation. Given that the mushrooming of popular sci-fi was in the 1800s with Wells and Verne, and those all seem to be user-contributed by modern internet users, I'm not seeing the probability of psychonautic coining predating sci-fi coining being very high. Put some dates on those words with some verifiable citations, and your argument would have more weight.
deirdre
Senior Member.
you said people should try it. i was pointing out that only 50% allegedly saw entities. Old people taking DMT with an alleged 50/50 chance of seeing anything isnt good odds. (and its from Reddit, so how many of those just want to be cool?..let's say 30% saw entities, not good odds for trying DMT.)
FatPhil
Senior Member.
Not sure if the payload is 100% relevant, all I did was notice the blurb it was introduced with matched a few keywords for this thread:
Source: https://wakingup.libsyn.com/346-the-best-kept-secret-in-history
(that's Sam Harris' podcast, apparently)
[Edit: hmm, just downloaded it and it looks like an expurgated version, the full thing being behind a paywall or equivalent.]
Source: https://wakingup.libsyn.com/346-the-best-kept-secret-in-history
(that's Sam Harris' podcast, apparently)
I'll shove it on for go-to-bed listening tonight, and if it's irrelevant I'll apologise in the morning.Sam Harris speaks with Brian Muraresku about ancient mystery religions and the possible psychedelic roots of Christianity. They discuss the Mysteries of Eleusis, the “pagan continuity hypothesis,” the cult of Dionysius, the Dead Sea scrolls and the Gnostic Gospels, Christianity as a cult of human sacrifice, the evidence for the use of psychedelics in ancient rites, the chemical analysis of ancient wine and beer, why Brian hasn’t tried psychedelics, the need for a modern Mysteries of Eleusis, and other topics.
[Edit: hmm, just downloaded it and it looks like an expurgated version, the full thing being behind a paywall or equivalent.]
Area 51/50
Member
I'm quite alright with our discussion stopping here. You're yet again requesting studies with multiple constraints on it as if I can snap my fingers and produce them. I've already explained ad nauseam that you'll have to consider people's reports because that's all these can be.
At some point, maybe it's just best if you recognize that there's literally nothing I can submit that you won't have an issue with? You are shifting the goal posts every interaction toward a more and more unlikely demand. And for what? "No, I need scientifically valid studies in a journal of my choosing (TBD as invalid after you post it, of course), comparing other hallucinogens, complete with statistics. If not, goodbye!"
And say I do? Then what? You'll meaningfully contribute? Or will you continue to stand on the sidelines looking for something else to pick apart with extreme pedantry? I already posted a study on this from John's Hopkins researchers, not some "woo-publication." I don't see how any of this is what anything on your end hinges on, though. Isn't your stance just that it's all hallucinations so who cares? Yeah, agreed.
Survey of subjective "God encounter experiences": Comparisons among naturally occurring experiences and those occasioned by the classic psychedelics psilocybin, LSD, ayahuasca, or DMT
Survey of entity encounter experiences occasioned by inhaled N,N-dimethyltryptamine: Phenomenology, interpretation, and enduring effectsCompared to the Psilocybin and LSD groups, the DMT Group had significantly higher total scores on the Mystical Experience Questionnaire, with higher scores on ineffability and transcendence of time and space factors, and with a greater proportion of the group fulfilling criteria for a complete mystical experience.
This is as good as it'll get on this front. Thanks for the constant thumbs down, though.More than half of those who identified as atheist before the experience no longer identified as atheist afterwards. The experiences were rated as among the most meaningful, spiritual, and psychologically insightful lifetime experiences, with persisting positive changes in life satisfaction, purpose, and meaning attributed to the experiences.
Additionally, our findings revealed significant decreases in identification as atheist and agnostic and significant increases in belief in ultimate reality, higher power, God, or universal divinity, which may be viewed as positive outcomes by some, but as negative outcomes by others.
That's what's holding you guys back? Or how about instead of being needlessly pedantic for no reason other than pedantry, you can just accept the terminology in use? Man, who cares? Y'all are just arguing to argue. There isn't even a salient point among any of this. It's just nitpicking for no other reason.
Anne asked what I meant by the term I used. I provided an entire glossary of the terms people use for this topic. Instead of, "Ah, okay. Thanks" and proceeding with a normal discussion, I got back, "LOL, psychonauts?!" from folks and people mentioning it's a "sci-fi term."
What "argument" of mine needs something to have more weight? I'm explaining to you guys the term people use to describe the DMT space. Is this seriously some big argument of mine that I need 40 citations for and a peer reviewed study? None of you even have something to argue against, you're just pushing back at literally everything for no reason.
Oh, no! Heavens, no! It's a "sci-fi term" apparently. Who cares?! What are you even challenging or debating? People use that term because the DMT space is appears in a higher dimension with FTL travel and hypertechnological gadgets and beings, ffs. It's not me borrowing a sci-fi term, but what people call the space. Take it up with the 30 years of usage in DMT discussion, folks.
What would you consider evidence? I've already listed a million different aspects of it that differentiate it from others. And I have people who've never done either saying, "nuh-uh, it's similar to this other thing I've Googled apparently" as I'm telling you it isn't. There are entire books written on it if you'd like to read up on how things are different. But if your only frame of reference for different is the molecular structure, I don't know what else I can reference?
It being structurally similar on a molecular level to psilocin does not make it close to it being similar in effect. The fact that people experience interactions with seemingly intelligent beings, similar to alien abductions, is incredibly different from other psychedelics. You're linking a drug facts site. That's not going to tell you much.
Last edited:
Area 51/50
Member
How often do you think anybody should interact with autonomous hyperintelligent entities ever? You have poor odds of ever having an alien abduction scenario. I still don't understand your point. Even without entity contact, you will see how different this experience is. And those are not official numbers or something. They're just some scraped reddit reports.
Here's another study with 94% of the participants reporting entity encounters with 100% of them experiencing a seemingly different world:
Here's a paper by Dr. Andrew Gallimore that highlights some of the unique properties of DMT. It also touches on how much influence you have on a breakthrough, which someone asked me about earlier:Results: Invariably, profound and highly intense experiences occurred. The first overarching category comprised the encounter with other ‘beings’ (94% of reports), encompassing super-ordinate themes including the entities’ role, appearance, demeanour, communication and interaction; while the second overarching category comprised experiences of emerging into other ‘worlds’ (100% of reports), encompassing super-ordinate themes of the scene, the contents and quality of the immersive spaces. Many further mid-level themes and subthemes also illuminate the rich content of the DMT experience.
Another excerpt from Dr. Gallimore's writing from one of his books:DMT is exceptional in that, given a sufficient dose, the separation of brain and environment becomes complete and their mutual information is reduced to zero. The individual’s phenomenal reality is completely replaced by an entirely alien reality that is unrelated to the consensus world. In fact, the brain actually loses its ability to sample data from the consensus world and render a meaningful percept – the user will normally lie back, close his/her eyes and hold tight. It remains a matter of debate as to whether this bizarre world is an autonomous and objective reality (for a full discussion, see Gallimore 2013), but it is difficult to explain why the brain is capable of suddenly generating phenomenal worlds of such beauty and complexity that bear no relationship whatsoever to the consensus world, which, as far as we know, is the only type of world the brain has evolved to model.
Here's a piece of content discussing unique properties of the molecule, highlighting both chemical properties and the unique experiences it produces:It’s reassuringly easy — some might say facile — to simply dismiss these experiences as mere hallucination, but it really isn’t that simple. From an orthodox neuroscience standpoint, it’s actually pretty tricky to explain why ingestion of the world’s simplest psychedelic molecule ought to reliably manifest hypertechnological worlds teeming with bizarre alien intelligences (Gallimore, 2013). So, what’s to be done with the machine elves, the insectoid aliens, and their ilk? Can they be filed away alongside the other psychological case studies marked “hallucinatory phenomena”? Or could something far far stranger be going on?
Of course, all of this is highly speculative stuff, but there is a serious point to be made here: when you come face-to-face with astonishingly powerful and intelligent alien entities that seem — or claim — to hail from normally-hidden dimensions of reality, you must be very careful. Whether or not we can currently explain why DMT is able to grant an audience with such beings, it might be a good idea to shut up, to watch, and to listen. Because there’s a small, but very real, possibility that they’re exactly who they say they are.
In the above article, DMT's classification among indole-based compounds is highlighted, distinguishing it from other classes of psychedelics. Its structural relation to natural neurotransmitters like serotonin is noted, hinting at its natural occurrence in mammalian brains and its potential role as a neurotransmitter. The fact it is endogenously produced in all of our bodies right now is also quite unique and interesting, in my opinion.In this article I wish to draw attention to a strange property of the tryptamine psychedelics, especially N,N-dimethyltryptamine (DMT), which sets them apart from other psychedelics, namely, their ability to place users in touch with a realm that is apparently inhabited by discarnate entities of an intelligent nature. The investigation of such a possibility clearly takes us to (and perhaps beyond) the border of what is considered scientifically acceptable. Nevertheless, the phenomenon of apparent alien contact is so impressive to those who have experienced it, and the implications of such contact are so radical, that the evidence deserves serious investigation.
I thought it'd be an interesting discussion, given there's 30 years of documented encounters with Gray aliens and intelligent mantis creatures (link to reddit's Mantis Encounters posts where reports involve DMT), but my aim wasn't so good on that front, haha.
Anyway, that's all I got. Cheers, folks.
Last edited:
deirdre
Senior Member.
because all 30 were experienced DMT users. "with at least one breakthrough experience".
This seems to be a meaningful topic for you, so i'm not going to comment on what i think this study does to your (vs mine) hypothesis. I was wondering how many were men vs women, so your study added some possible enlightenment on that.
either way, Nice talk. Take care.
Area 51/50
Member
It's not a meaningful topic for me. I just find the opposition and unreasonable demands bizarre. I am still unsure what point you think is made from "not every single experience, every single time, from every type of user results in a specific alien-entity experience." Uh, right?
I also have no idea what "my hypothesis" actually is. I don't have one. Please, comment away.
I also have no idea what "my hypothesis" actually is. I don't have one. Please, comment away.
Last edited:
deirdre
Senior Member.
I dont like people pushing drugs on Metabunk. Not medical drugs, or alternative drugs.
I've done enough psychedelics in my day, and been around enough peers, to know not everyone can handle them (that's why the psychiatrists keep saying "under doctor supervision") and the physical fallout.
I'm letting the primarily old geezers of MB (and outside readers) know not to try DMT. The risk isnt worth the odds of reward.
Similar threads
