Diana W. Pasulka - aliens & religion & other dimensions (JRE podcast #2091)

[Todd Feinman]

There are a lot of papers out there on the DMT "entities". I'd be surprised if individuals were actually accessing an objective storehouse of archetypes from a collective unconscious. I've not taken DMT, but the motifs one sees under the influence of some hallucinogenics could be due to the same neural pathways being activated that the brain uses to organize visual information and also to create the decorative and symbolic religious art of the past.
I'd doubt that someone totally unfamiliar with Egyptian art would see a perfect image of Anubis or Osiris, for example.
Papers, but I doubt peer-reviewed, and I've not read them:
https://www.academia.edu/25050673/Concerning_the_Nature_of_the_DMT_Entities_and_their_Relation_to_Us

 

[Area 51/50]

You've made a claim that I question. I'd like to see a scientific citation for that, not just "plenty of reports you can find online".

I didn't claim there were scientific studies of this particular phenomenon. My claim was specific to online trip reports where people are asking about the entities they saw, oblivious to them being known religious deities. Enough of these reports are solid evidence for me personally. The few studies that exist on DMT experiences specific to entities are going to be from similar self-reports. I'm unsure of what scientific citations you're expecting that'd be different than the online reports.

The same goes for visions of aliens, and, like "gods", nobody has a real alien with which to compare the likeness. It all boils down to the circular "Looks like something which happens to look like someone else's idea of what it should look like".

Right, but we're still asking where did the initial vision of the classic Grey come from? And obviously there are plenty of entities that don't resemble those guys, too. If endogenous DMT dumps are responsible for the abduction stories, it tracks that both would produce the same entities.

I'd doubt that someone totally unfamiliar with Egyptian art would see a perfect image of Anubis or Osiris, for example.

What exactly is a "perfect image of Anubis or Osiris" though? It's not like we know for sure what these mythological beings resemble. If someone is describing a dark, Egyptian figure with the head of a dog, is that enough in your mind? What if the figure explains that he is preparing someone's rebirth while standing over a decedent in some chamber?

To me, that's clearly describing Anubis. I guess it's up to you as to whether you'd believe people who claim they hadn't previously heard of what they're describing, though. But it's pretty well-established that recurring entities appear frequently in the DMT space.

Also, just to be clear, it's not seeing images of these figures. DMT is not like that. You are interacting with them and actually transported there. Where "there" is, I'm not sure, but it's experienced with the same qualia as everyday life. It's not something that translates very well in text, but it's an experience that will make you question reality, for sure. It can also take place in this reality where it bleeds in, which can be particularly unnerving.

Us having similar neural architecture is certainly a plausible explanation. For me, that makes it more likely that the Egyptians (or other people promoting the deities in question) were accessing these same figures in their time (which I believe you were suggesting as well). Egyptians had a special relationship with Acacia. I wonder if they utilized it for the DMT within it.

 

[Mauro]

If someone is describing a dark, Egyptian figure with the head of a dog, is that enough in your mind? (....)
To me, that's clearly describing Anubis.

For the sake of precision, Anubis has the head of a jackal, not of a dog (in Italy he's even commonly called 'the jackal god')

 

[Area 51/50]

For the sake of precision, Anubis has the head of a jackal, not of a dog (in Italy he's even commonly called 'the jackal god')

A jackal is a wild dog, although I don't believe it is certain which specific canid is linked to Anubis. The African golden wolf is supposed to be the most likely, which was formerly called the African golden jackal until the taxonomy was reclassified. Many of the historical mentions refer to him having a dog's head, not a wolf or jackal. But again, a jackal is a dog, so it's a wash.

But word. In any case, someone seeing Anubis would clearly make that mistake, haha.

 

[FatPhil]

For the sake of precision, Anubis has the head of a jackal, not of a dog (in Italy he's even commonly called 'the jackal god')

For precision, you should demonstrate this distinction in the original language, not in languages that didn't exist until several thousand years later.

 

[Scaramanga]

The classic Grey alien is very commonly featured in DMT trips, as are mantids.

As scientifically established by.....Reddit ?

 

[Scaramanga]

I have found plenty of NDE reports that are extremely similar to DMT, although it's not something I feel strongly about.

I could not disagree more. I've looked into both for years. Whilst there are bound to be some similarities simply because not all NDE or DMT experiences are the same and there is variation, the general common features of NDEs simply do not have a significant overlap with those of DMT. The latter generally don't start with an OBE, they contain an approach to a 'mandala' rather than a tunnel with a bright light, generally don't have a life review, the beings met in DMT are generally alien in the extreme....often not even describable in earthly terms...rather than 'Jesus' or 'Buddha' or stereotypical 'angels', and the DMT environment is generally also alien in the extreme with swirling fractals rather than a glorified ethereal Constable painting. There's way too many dis-similarities for them to be the same phenomenon.

The sense of a 'timeless' realm is common to both....though that would not surprise me at all as the sense of time is likely a higher brain function dependent on integration of brain parts and once that integration is lost so too would be all notion of sequential events.

 

[Scaramanga]

You seem to be making an assumption about what I am referring to WRT "biblically accurate angels." While I know little about scripture, the angels I am referring to are called "wheels" or "thrones" I think. Ophanim, nothing like feathered flying white things playing harps. They're wheel-looking structures, covered in eyes. Nothing like the classic angel.

And yes, the multiple winged creatures, also with eyes everywhere. And again, I am referring to people who had no previous knowledge of these figures. Folks who mention some blue figure with multiple arms or something. I'm not suggesting it makes them real or anything, either. We have similar neural architecture and all that.

I was making the point that the stereotypical 'angel' depicted in art and in many alleged 'encounters with angels' are not actually Biblically accurate at all. Biblical 'angels' do not have wings at all....they are human-like 'messengers' ( which is where the word angel comes from ).

Cherubim have 4 wings and Seraphim have 6 wings. They spend all their time praising God in heaven. There are no two winged 'angels'. So if people are seeing two winged angels....that tells one that what they are seeing is based on cultural expectation and not on the reality of some other realm. It is similar to people who see 'Jesus' as some Nordic long haired hippy.....when the real Jesus was a 1st century rabbi for whom long hair would have been anathema. Paul even says in one of his letters that men should not have long hair.....so does anyone really think he'd be following a long haired hippy ? Yet the hippy Jesus image is the most prevalent cultural one today. Or people who see 'the virgin Mary' dressed in blue, which again is a cultural myth and its highly unlikely that a 1st century carpenter's wife could have afforded blue garments.

 

[Ann K]

Right, but we're still asking where did the initial vision of the classic Grey come from?

Where did the initial vision of Anubis come from? Humans are pretty good at inventing things, remember?

It's not like we know for sure what these mythological beings resemble. If someone is describing a dark, Egyptian figure with the head of a dog, is that enough in your mind?

You readily refer to Anubis as a mythological being. I agree, and would extend that label to aliens and other miscellaneous gods and crypto-critters as well. But somebody, somewhere, first came up with a mental image for each of those creatures, and it's not always easy to pinpoint the source. Drugs? Dreams? Deliberate artistic inventions? I'm sure they've all played a part, but there is a definite and well-known "bandwagon" effect. We have seen large increases in the number of people who claim they've seen "alien greys" or "bigfoot", all of them with a marked similarity after they were portrayed in a single source.

Humans are inventive, but we are also susceptible.

 

[Ann K]

My claim was specific to online trip reports where people are asking about the entities they saw, oblivious to them being known religious deities. Enough of these reports are solid evidence for me personally.

To quote somebody or other, the plural of "anecdotes" is not "evidence".

 

[Mauro]

For precision, you should demonstrate this distinction in the original language, not in languages that didn't exist until several thousand years later.

You are very right (and pretty smart in noticing that). Indeed I did not trust enough my recalling of Anubis being 'the jackal god' in Italian, so I first checked Wikipedia, that was enough for me (bold is mine):

In the Old Kingdom (c. 2686 BC – c. 2181 BC), the standard way of writing his name in hieroglyphs was composed of the sound signs inpw followed by a jackal[a] over a ḥtp sign:[11]

A new form with the jackal on a tall stand appeared in the late Old Kingdom and became common thereafter:[11]

Anubis

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anubis


@Area 51/50: a jackal (Canis aureus L.) is a jackal, it's not a dog (Canis familiaris L.), anymore than a wolf (Canis lupus) is a dog, or an African wolf (Canis lupaster, another possible identification for Anubis's head), a red wolf (Canis rufus), or a lycaon (Canis lycaon), or a coyote (Canis coyote), and more, are dogs.

 

[jarlrmai]

Jackals are canids, canids are commonly referred to as dogs.

From wikipedia

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canidae

Canidae (/ˈkænɪdiː/;[3] from Latin, canis, "dog") is a biological family of dog-like carnivorans, colloquially referred to as dogs,

 

[FatPhil]

You are very right (and pretty smart in noticing that). Indeed I did not trust enough my recalling of Anubis being 'the jackal god' in Italian, so I first checked Wikipedia, that was enough for me (bold is mine):

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anubis

Alas, the inlining of wikipedia failed horribly in my browser, but the wiki page itself renders OK.
I don't know enough about heiroglyphs to be sure that wikipedia is wrong, but I do know enough that it looks like it's not explaining itself at all well.
The graphics that follow "inpw followed by a jackal[a] over a ḥtp sign" are, in wikipedia's shorthand

i-n:p-w-C6

And 'C6' is, according to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gardiner's_sign_list#C._Anthropomorphic_deities "Anubis".
No jackel involved in that, only an Anubis, and you can't define what Anubis' head is by referring to Anubis.

The footnote is

Informational notes

[a] The wild canine species in Egypt, long thought to have been a geographical variant of the golden jackal in older texts, was reclassified in 2015 as a separate species known as the African wolf, which was found to be more closely related to wolves and coyotes than to the jackal.[10] Nevertheless, ancient Greek texts about Anubis constantly refer to the deity as having a dog's head, not a jackal or wolf's, and there is still uncertainty as to what canid represents Anubis. Therefore the Name and History section uses the names the original sources used but in quotation marks.

But, of course, what the romans and greeks thought is almost as irrelevant as what we think.

Notice, also that I asked for the *distinction*:

I was fishing for a primary source that made clear that Gardiner-C6 has a Gardiner-E17 head, not a Gardiner-E14 head.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gardiner's_sign_list
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Egyptian_hieroglyphs#C
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Egyptian_hieroglyphs#E

Or in unicode terms, and bearing in mind that I have no extended fonts - if something's mangled, look at the ascii) that U+13062 has a U+130E5 head, not a U+130E1 head.
https://unicode.org/charts/PDF/U13000.pdf

Given that they can't even decide who his parents are, I suspect such a primary source doesn't exist. Not knowing how important precision was, or should I say suspecting that a precise and accurative narrative over millennia wasn't important at all, this discussion may rank alongside whether batman's suit has nipples.

 

[Mauro]

... this discussion may rank alongside whether batman's suit has nipples.

Agreed . But your excursus on hieroglyphs and the list of sources were interesting in themselves, ty!

 

[Todd Feinman]

Similar issues arise when trying to identify the Set animal.

 

[Eburacum]

I've never bought the 'sleep paralysis' theory. It's a classic example of debunkers jumping on the first simplistic idea that comes along, and ignoring countless counter-examples in testimony. I've personally had sleep paralysis on numerous occassions.....no aliens involved, though it is often associated with a phenomenon called hypnagogic imagery ( which in turn is similar to seeing geometric fractals like with DMT ).

Curiously enough, I have had an experience of 'sleep paralysis with aliens', so I know it does happen.

One afternoon, after working a night shift, I was lying on my bed and suddenly I saw an alien in the corner of the room. At first I couldn't see it very clearly, or perhaps I wasn't fully visualising it properly, but gradually it resolved itself into a familiar alien face:

it was Balok from Star Trek.

I suspect I was having a 'lucid dream' experience, and had 'taken control' of my dream to make it into something familiar. I'm fairly sure that someone with the subconscious desire to see a particular type of alien could 'take control' of a lucid dream and make any kind of image appear in their mind's eye, even if they are not consciously aware of the process.

 

[Todd Feinman]

Curiously enough, I have had an experience of 'sleep paralysis with aliens', so I know it does happen.

One afternoon, after working a night shift, I was lying on my bed and suddenly I saw an alien in the corner of the room. At first I couldn't see it very clearly, or perhaps I wasn't fully visualising it properly, but gradually it resolved itself into a familiar alien face:

it was Balok from Star Trek.

I suspect I was having a 'lucid dream' experience, and had 'taken control' of my dream to make it into something familiar. I'm fairly sure that someone with the subconscious desire to see a particular type of alien could 'take control' of a lucid dream and make any kind of image appear in their mind's eye, even if they are not consciously aware of the process.

Wow, that sounds like a strange experience; sleep paralysis doesn't sound fun.

 

[Eburacum]

Some people really enjoy lucid dreaming, though - a cheap kind of virtual reality. But it does sound risky, if you lose control of the dream.

 

[Ann K]

I remember once dozing on the couch. I could hear my husband saying to the kids "Don't bother your mom; she's sleeping", and I wanted to say "No, it's fine, I'm awake now", but I was completely unable to speak or move. I didn't dream his words, as I verified by asking him afterwards, but for a number of minutes I couldn't respond at all. No aliens, no strange dreams, nothing scary at all, but just an inability to move.

 

[Todd Feinman]

I remember once dozing on the couch. I could hear my husband saying to the kids "Don't bother your mom; she's sleeping", and I wanted to say "No, it's fine, I'm awake now", but I was completely unable to speak or move. I didn't dream his words, as I verified by asking him afterwards, but for a number of minutes I couldn't respond at all. No aliens, no strange dreams, nothing scary at all, but just an inability to move.

I suppose it's better than REM Sleep Disorder (though not directly related). Still sounds unpleasant, though!

 

[FatPhil]

Some people really enjoy lucid dreaming, though - a cheap kind of virtual reality. But it does sound risky, if you lose control of the dream.

VR? Amateurs! You do realise that it's possible to use lucid dreaming as a cheap high, right?
According to a friend of a friend, obviously. Who has lost control of the dream a few times. Eldritch horror would be a good way of describing what's possible.

 

[Area 51/50]

As scientifically established by.....Reddit ?

There's no way to "scientifically establish" metaphysical entities you interact with in an unknown place. I also never claimed scientific establishment of anything. Every paper involving DMT entities is comprised of self-written reports, not unlike the trip reports found on reddit or Nexus. I'm pretty sure one of the bigger available studies actually is an analysis of scraped reddit trip reports.

Perhaps I missed it, but are you suggesting your "research of DMT" involves something more than reading what DMT users claim to experience? We are talking about potent psychedelic trips and and the experiences of people in a dying state. Neither of us have science validating these subjective experiences so I'm unsure why you're rejecting troves of user reports dating back decades.

You claimed that classic Gray aliens and mantids are not present in the DMT space. This is refuted by hundreds of reports over the years. I linked you to plenty, but you've ignored them for some reason.

I could not disagree more. I've looked into both for years. Whilst there are bound to be some similarities simply because not all NDE or DMT experiences are the same and there is variation, the general common features of NDEs simply do not have a significant overlap with those of DMT. The latter generally don't start with an OBE, they contain an approach to a 'mandala' rather than a tunnel with a bright light, generally don't have a life review, the beings met in DMT are generally alien in the extreme....often not even describable in earthly terms...rather than 'Jesus' or 'Buddha' or stereotypical 'angels', and the DMT environment is generally also alien in the extreme with swirling fractals rather than a glorified ethereal Constable painting. There's way too many dis-similarities for them to be the same phenomenon.

The sense of a 'timeless' realm is common to both....though that would not surprise me at all as the sense of time is likely a higher brain function dependent on integration of brain parts and once that integration is lost so too would be all notion of sequential events.

Sorry, but what are you disagreeing with? We've already established that you don't see the similarities. That's why I mentioned that I've seen a few. I linked you to a video of one, which you didn't acknowledge.

It seems you're arguing against them being the same space, but I don't believe that was claimed. The claim is of a link between the experiences, i.e., the ability to exist in an alternate reality and the sense of extreme familiarity (what many call "home" in their TRs). I'd also throw in the many reports on DMT where the entities straight up tell them that it's where they'll return at some point.

To be clear, I'm not trying to correct you or say that you're wrong or anything. I have little interest in NDEs myself and don't know tons about the topic. For all I know, the vast majority are nothing like DMT. I only shared the video because I thought you might enjoy a report that really does sound like DMT.

I was making the point that the stereotypical 'angel' depicted in art and in many alleged 'encounters with angels' are not actually Biblically accurate at all. Biblical 'angels' do not have wings at all....they are human-like 'messengers' ( which is where the word angel comes from ).

Cherubim have 4 wings and Seraphim have 6 wings. They spend all their time praising God in heaven. There are no two winged 'angels'. So if people are seeing two winged angels....that tells one that what they are seeing is based on cultural expectation and not on the reality of some other realm. It is similar to people who see 'Jesus' as some Nordic long haired hippy.....when the real Jesus was a 1st century rabbi for whom long hair would have been anathema. Paul even says in one of his letters that men should not have long hair.....so does anyone really think he'd be following a long haired hippy ? Yet the hippy Jesus image is the most prevalent cultural one today. Or people who see 'the virgin Mary' dressed in blue, which again is a cultural myth and its highly unlikely that a 1st century carpenter's wife could have afforded blue garments.

Right, but it was a totally unnecessary point because I never suggested anything you're referencing. You are legitimately rebutting an argument that you've invented for me, not one I've actually made. I made no mention of stereotypical 2-winged angels. I only used "biblically accurate angels" to correctly reference the angels you're describing above.

I provided you with 2 different links to some of these reports, complete with renderings and descriptions (which you've ignored again for some reason).

@Area 51/50: a jackal (Canis aureus L.) is a jackal, it's not a dog (Canis familiaris L.), anymore than a wolf (Canis lupus) is a dog, or an African wolf (Canis lupaster, another possible identification for Anubis's head), a red wolf (Canis rufus), or a lycaon (Canis lycaon), or a coyote (Canis coyote), and more, are dogs.

A jackal is indeed a dog, just like every canid listed above. Sure, colloquially, we use "dogs" for man's best friend and not the prototype Fido was created from. But these are all still canines and canine still means dog.

ETA: Added the clip for the topical humor only, not to send Stewie's message to you.

To quote somebody or other, the plural of "anecdotes" is not "evidence".

Anecdotal evidence is still evidence. We were only ever discussing what people report seeing in these experiences. I have provided examples for exactly that. I'm not exactly sure what you think you're asking for if not what I've provided. I do not have a peer-reviewed double-blind study that confirms multiple DMT users, completely unfamiliar with Hinduism, all independently met a conclusively identified Ganesh.

 

[Area 51/50]

You readily refer to Anubis as a mythological being. I agree, and would extend that label to aliens and other miscellaneous gods and crypto-critters as well. But somebody, somewhere, first came up with a mental image for each of those creatures, and it's not always easy to pinpoint the source. Drugs? Dreams? Deliberate artistic inventions? I'm sure they've all played a part, but there is a definite and well-known "bandwagon" effect. We have seen large increases in the number of people who claim they've seen "alien greys" or "bigfoot", all of them with a marked similarity after they were portrayed in a single source.

Humans are inventive, but we are also susceptible.

Anubis is a mythological being to me, but I cannot conclusively prove he does or doesn't exist somewhere. If I came to in an Egyptian tomb and saw him for myself, IDK if I'd consider *him* real, but I'd think it's more likely someone else had that experience to draw him.

I think if you only engage with a metaphysical topic like this using strictly materialistic reductionism, it's probably not very worthwhile. What ineffable experience can't be explained away with boring, Earthly reductionism? There is none.

I believe the initial distinction was about recurring themes that people with no knowledge of run into in the DMT space. But I guess it's up to you on whether you believe that happens or not. To me, it's not really that relevant. Even if you know what a mantis looks like, why would you conjure them up in this realm? And how? Why are there extremely specific details about them that permeate DMT trip reports, UFO encounters, lucid dreaming, etc.

It doesn't seem reasonable to assume everyone was reading the same source material and then influenced themselves to experience such similar things. Sure, plenty of people have seen Vishnu and Rama. But not everyone. While influence and suggestion obviously play a role in perception, it's the whole experience part of things that kind of throws a monkey wrench into things for me. Wouldn't it make way more sense to envision things from our world and not some 4-armed God from a religion I don't follow?

Honestly, we're doing the DMT experience a huge disservice with these alien and bigfoot examples. People see new colors, live entire lives elsewhere, have purportedly come back with real information, experience 5D impossible objects, etc. People will do a large enough dose for 15 minutes of full breakthrough. 1 minute into the trip, an entity might say, "Nah, sorry, man. We have to send you back early" and *floop*, you're stone sober. It can seriously shake up everything you believed. It's not at all this "seeing fractal imagery" kind of thing that I think folks are imagining.

And it's not always pleasant. In fact, many experience seemingly evil, malevolent entities. Sometimes when folks get sent back early, the entities tell them not to come back for a while. It's pretty well-established that folks who ignore this will frequently get a terror trip known as a Hyperslap. I'm not sure if that's what I got, but man, it wasn't fun.

I'm not saying it can't be our brain doing everything. But it's at least way, way more involved than whether you really envisioned an Egyptian deity. And if you did, perhaps you saw it prior? I distinctly remember this entity appearing in front of me and behind me at the same time. I mean that I could see (if that's the right term) both angles at the same exact time. I don't think that will even make sense to you. I couldn't imagine that when I'm not even physically capable of it.

Our current understanding of modern neuroscience doesn't explain these Hyperspace interactions (not to say that it can't eventually). As far as I'm concerned, anything involving consciousness should have an asterisk somewhere, but especially an experience where other beings can seemingly manipulate yours. It's definitely something else.

Sorry if some of this doesn't make sense. Super tired and dozing off. Cheers.

 

[deirdre]

Wouldn't it make way more sense to envision things from our world and not some 4-armed God from a religion I don't follow?

no. Dreams are trippy.

 

[Area 51/50]

We aren't discussing dreams, though. Do you mind elaborating on why you disagree? I'm not sure I'm inferring much from "trippy." If our brains are rendering these deities from memory/knowledge, how would it not be more likely to render something we know of than something we don't?

 

[deirdre]

We aren't discussing dreams, though. Do you mind elaborating on why you disagree? I'm not sure I'm inferring much from "trippy." If our brains are rendering these deities from memory/knowledge, how would it not be more likely to render something we know of than something we don't?

they arent rendering them from memory. they are rendering them from memory+ imagination.

 

[Ann K]

Honestly, we're doing the DMT experience a huge disservice with these alien and bigfoot examples. People see new colors, live entire lives elsewhere, have purportedly come back with real information

If anyone has "come back with real information", that's (al last) a claim of fact that could be assessed scientifically, although most of your other claims cannot. Any evidence for that? If not, we are back in the realm of drug-induced fantasies again, and there isn't anything a group of skeptics can do with that, if there is no there there.

 

[Area 51/50]

If anyone has "come back with real information", that's (al last) a claim of fact that could be assessed scientifically, although most of your other claims cannot. Any evidence for that? If not, we are back in the realm of drug-induced fantasies again, and there isn't anything a group of skeptics can do with that, if there is no there there.

No offense, but I don't need you to validate anything for me. I'm also still not sure what claims you think I've made or how you'll verify them. To be honest, I thought the non-falsifiability was understood by everyone and we were chatting about the subjective experiences.

I referenced the religious themes commonly reported in DMT trips as it was relevant to the pod discussion. You misinterpreted this somehow, requesting "scientific citation" and "not just 'plenty of reports you can find online'" for what I plainly stated were user reports you can find online. You're requesting information that isn't going to be available (and wouldn't be relevant anyway).

I think if you only engage with a metaphysical topic like this using strictly materialistic reductionism, it's probably not very worthwhile. What ineffable experience can't be explained away with boring, Earthly reductionism? There is none.

As I said, the discussion is kind of pointless with this stance. Obviously if meeting God or Hindu deities or deceased loved ones is just "drug-induced fantasies" no matter what, the discussion is pointless.

 

[Ann K]

think if you only engage with a metaphysical topic like this using strictly materialistic reductionism, it's probably not very worthwhile.

Oh. OK. I'm not sure why anyone would want to bring a "metaphysical topic" to a materialist gun fight, but you do you.

 

[deirdre]

commonly reported in DMT trips

what exactly is DMT? we didnt use that term in my drug days. is that shrooms? and such?

 

[Area 51/50]

I didn't bring it up, though. As I said above, "I referenced the religious themes commonly reported in DMT trips as it was relevant to the pod discussion."

Many aspects of Ufology cross into the metaphysical. It's not like it means fake. We still can't explain consciousness, which obviously can't be divorced from anything we do. If alien abductees are indeed experiencing what they claim, I don't believe they're being abducted by physical beings with FTL travel. An extremely common DMT experience is coming to on an operating table with aliens hovering over you, making adjustments and monitoring you. Sound familiar?

To me, it seems worth entertaining with so much overlap, but to each their own. Diane is talking about interdimensional aliens, which we have no idea exist or not. DMT aliens can be experienced.

dierdre,

N,N-dimethyltryptamine is referred to as The Spirit Molecule. DMT is a simple molecule found in plenty of plants and animals, including us. It's an extremely potent, but short acting psychedelic. It's the main active ingredient in the brew ayahuasca (with aya, they add a MAOI to make the trip go for hours) and is unreal.

It's a structural analog of psilocin, which is what your liver converts psilocybin to and lets you trip. So kind of similar to mushrooms in a chemical structure, but different effect. With a 20-25mg dose, you can achieve "breakthrough", which will have you in a completely different world. A very common part of the experience are hyperintelligent entities that can seemingly control everything: space, time, you, etc.

Certain aspects of the experience are very, very similar to alien abductions. It's not something that text does justice. Many come away from the experience with a completely different outlook on everything. Many aspects of the experience defy our understanding of, well, everything.

 

[FatPhil]

what exactly is DMT? we didnt use that term in my drug days. is that shrooms? and such?

Dimethyltryptamine

N,N-Dimethyltryptamine (DMT or N,N-DMT) is a substituted tryptamine that occurs in many plants and animals, including humans, and which is both a derivative and a structural analog of tryptamine.[4] DMT is used as a psychedelic drug and prepared by various cultures for ritual purposes as an entheogen.[5]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/N,N-Dimethyltryptamine

 

[deirdre]

Dimethyltryptamine

N,N-Dimethyltryptamine (DMT or N,N-DMT) is a substituted tryptamine that occurs in many plants and animals, including humans, and which is both a derivative and a structural analog of tryptamine.[4] DMT is used as a psychedelic drug and prepared by various cultures for ritual purposes as an entheogen.[5]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/N,N-Dimethyltryptamine

i already read that. it doesnt help. is it peyote? shrooms? what is it?

ok i read further down..its like shrooms

Article:

Psilocin and psilocybin, the main psychoactive compounds in psilocybin mushrooms, are structurally similar to DMT.

Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/N,N-Dimethyltryptamine

 

[FatPhil]

An extremely common DMT experience is coming to on an operating table with aliens hovering over you, making adjustments and monitoring you.

That is a statistical claim. Please show us the statistics.

Sound familiar?

Yes, I think you said something similar up-thread, and when called on it - perhaps repeatedly - you were unable to back up the claim with any data.

A materialistic razor cuts a metaphysical tissue.

 

[deirdre]

It's a structural analog of psilocin, which is what your liver converts psilocybin to and lets you trip. So kind of similar to mushrooms in a chemical structure, but different effect. With a 20-25mg dose, you can achieve "breakthrough", which will have you in a completely different world. A very common part of the experience are hyperintelligent entities that can seemingly control everything: space, time, you, etc.

thanks, didnt see this before. you lost me at "spirit molecule". was it always called "spirit molecule" because if someone handed me shrooms or windowpane back in the day and told me i was taking "spirit molecule" i imagine i would have had much different trips. meaning: how much suggestibility is attached to DMT?

p.s i'm digging the term "mechanical elves" (from wiki). very shroomy

 

[FatPhil]

i already read that. it doesnt help. is it peyote? shrooms? what is it?

ok i read further down..its like shrooms

Article:

Psilocin and psilocybin, the main psychoactive compounds in psilocybin mushrooms, are structurally similar to DMT.

Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/N,N-Dimethyltryptamine

Yup, psylocybin is a reasonably-close relative of what might be considered the core "DMT", it is metabolised into a chemical that is on of the things scientists may call something-DMT, only one radical (replacement) away from the core DMT. So what you experience from it is the *-DMT part (I'm using '*' to represent just 'something' - there can be a whole range of things bolted onto the core shape, and the "something" will be named after what's bolted on, and where). There are many many *-DMTs, and many of them are natural - they've clearly been important signalling chemicals in life on earth since our very earliest development.

 

[Area 51/50]

That is a statistical claim. Please show us the statistics.

That was not a statistical claim.

Yes, I think you said something similar up-thread, and when called on it - perhaps repeatedly - you were unable to back up the claim with any data.

A materialistic razor cuts a metaphysical tissue.

No, not quite. Well, no, not at all. It would be more accurate to say that I referenced some of the most common religious motifs and deities found in online trip reports. The user requested I magically produce scientific data for him and to not include the online trip reports.

Yes, traditionally one is unable to back up statistical claims he hasn't made with data that doesn't exist to validate the online trip reports he's been told not to use.

It reminds me of the time I was at the Mariner's game and heard the guy yelling, "POPCORN! GET YOUR POPCORN HERE!" Naturally, I demanded he present me with a hot dog. "I don't have hot dogs, only popcorn." I obviously called him out for being unable to backup his claim.

thanks, didnt see this before. you lost me at "spirit molecule". was it always called "spirit molecule" because if someone handed me shrooms or windowpane back in the day and told me i was taking "spirit molecule" i imagine i would have had much different trips. meaning: how much suggestibility is attached to DMT?

p.s i'm digging the term "mechanical elves" (from wiki). very shroomy

The optimal route of administration is vaporizing. Suggestibility is there in terms of set and setting, but not in the more literal, tangible influence you're probably wondering about. Like yeah, probably don't do DMT during a breakup or something. But if you do a breakthrough dose, you are no longer on Earth, brother. You will have no connection to wherever you were sitting when you inhaled and held it in.

I'm not super experienced and have only left this base reality one time that I remember. But lower doses produce insane closed-eye visuals. But if you read through trip reports, you'll see a lot of commonalities. It's not something you can prepare for. The entities are also not always nice (some can be evil). They can control your perception, generate tactile sensations throughout your body, communicate through telepathy, physically move your body in this reality, etc. Some people get eaten alive by insects, leopards, mantids, etc., Entities performing soul surgery is a frequently occurring aspect, sometimes the trips are sexual in nature, they'll sometimes be pumped you showed up like, "YEAH, HE MADE IT! HE FINALLY CAME HOME!" and other times, you've seemingly walked in on them and spook them. It's extremely common, even for first timers, to remember being there before with extreme deja vu.

Guys, it is not at all like eating a few grams of cubes. It is structurally similar, but the trip is not the same unless you're eating like an ounce of mushrooms to yourself.

It's "The Spirit Molecule" because you enter a space with seemingly autonomous, hyperintelligent beings. Many come back with the realization that we're all part of a universal consciousness, others are shown our reality is simulated (not necessary mutually exclusive with the first), impossible shapes with 5+ dimensions, etc.

Survey of subjective "God encounter experiences": Comparisons among naturally occurring experiences and those occasioned by the classic psychedelics psilocybin, LSD, ayahuasca, or DMT

 

[FatPhil]

That was not a statistical claim.

I'll stop you there - "extremely common" is definitionally a statistical claim. It may not be numerical, but can only be a conclusion from the analysis of a mass of data. We call that field "statistics". If you're drawing that conclusion, I want the data.

Rest of post deleted unread.

 

[Area 51/50]

You stopped yourself there, not me. Perhaps you should work on your manners if you'd like someone to get things for you? Especially when you and others are rudely barking for data that isn't readily available? And in some of the demands, not even possible? Common is subjective and the threshold for common in this context is not the same as any other thing you want to measure. Quantitative analysis of a mass of data is also not the only way to arrive at this determination. Qualitative assessments aren't worthless, especially when there's not a complete dataset available.

Do you have data to backup just how common this is on aeroplanes? And where are the numbers on how common this parallax scroll was? I want the data.

DMT is unique in the way specific characters and places show up for many people. That is not common on other hallucinogens. There are specific themes and entities that many, many people can describe independently; plenty is mapped out and named. You can find trip reports from 1995 that reference the black-and-white jesters, serving as tricksters within the realm. 2024 will have plenty, too. Even with such similar neural structure, we don't expect to travel to the same place in a psychedelic journey, as if it's a real place with it's own spatial coordinates.

Given that I haven't been able to actually track every single person's DMT experience over time, I'll never be able to tell you what % of trips have what specific themes. And since I wasn't there in the trip with them, who can verify it anyway? I can't retroactively recall and synthesize the thousands of trip reports and comments I've read over the years that mention certain things over others, either. Sorry, dude.

Here's one with some data on medical-type interaction, but it includes other similar stuff. Here are reports specifically mentioning the operating experience, although there's plenty more terms that'd return more. Here's a conclusion from a paper:

Conclusion:

N,N-dimethyltryptamine-occasioned entity encounter experiences have many similarities to non-drug entity encounter experiences such as those described in religious, alien abduction, and near-death contexts. Aspects of the experience and its interpretation produced profound and enduring ontological changes in worldview.

Another study with neat results:

The next most frequent entity phenotype was that of deities, divine beings, and demi-gods encountered in 293 experiences (17.0%); most frequently identified were the Devil, Satan, demons, or death-type entities (n = 55, 3.2%) followed by "God" (n = 48, 2.8%). Hindu deities, Buddhist (including Buddha) deities, and ancient Egyptian deities were encountered in 40 (2.3%), 37 (2.2%), and 16 (0.9%) experiences, respectively. Angels or seraphim were encountered in 18 experiences (1.0%), while Jesus or Mary Magdalene were identified in 9 experiences (0.5%). See Fig. 2 for additional encountered deity-type entities.

Aliens, celestial beings, and extra-terrestrials were encountered in 281experiences (16.3%). Included within this thematic phenotype were beings made of light or energy and jeweled beings (n = 74, 4.2%); geometric, fractal, or hyperdimensional entities (n = 61; 3.5%); grey aliens (n = 18, 1.0%); and aliens or celestial beings NOS (n = 130; 7.6%).

Is this enough people having that experience to be called common? Who knows. But hopefully it's enough to get people in this thread to quit with the annoying pedantry now and maybe just ask questions in good faith or something.

 

[John J.]

Our current understanding of modern neuroscience doesn't explain these Hyperspace interactions

Yes it does.
Modern neuroscience says you've taken a known hallucinogen.
The content of the wholly subjective hallucinations that result is in part culturally determined.
As is the use of the term "hyperspace" in this context; a word from late 19th century geometry used to describe entirely abstract 4+ dimensional spaces which was adopted by SF writers like John W. Campbell in the 1930's as a McGuffin for their stories. This is the use which most people today who have heard the term are familiar with.

A very common part of the experience are hyperintelligent entities that can seemingly control everything: space, time, you, etc.

Imagined hyperintelligent entities. Like the ones we see in SF films or read stories about any time we want to.

If taking DMT makes the user aware that we are part of one cosmic consciousness, and profoundly impacts their previously materialistic view, and

[p]eople... ...have purportedly come back with real information

then maybe a DMT user will, one day, maybe just once, try asking their hyperintelligent nth-dimension mates something useful, and have the answer evaluated when the trip's over.

Something that might alleviate real human suffering, not obscure lyrics for some inconsequential west coast band.
Or maybe I'm just too darned reductionist in suggesting this.