Debunked: Iron Microspheres in 9/11 WTC Dust as Evidence for Thermite

Could you give a source for the "150 times"?

And ahead of that, I don't think you'd argue that the Word Trade Center's circumstances on that day really resembled a "typical" office fire?


Mick, (if I may), do you dispute the 150 times ratio from RJ Lee Group? I thought we all read the same reports. This doesn't seem to be a big area of controversy. The true ratio is 1:146.75.

True, the circumstances on 9/11/2001 did not resemble a "typical" office fire for sure. But that does not get you or anyone else any closer to dismissing the iron microspheres as a significant piece of forensic evidence. They still must be accounted for, no?

You have stated as much yourself that burning steel wool isn't an explanation for the frequency and mass of the iron ms in the WTC dust. Calling the circumstances "atypical" is accurate, in my opinion, but that doesn't dismiss the necessity to account for these and other "high temperature" phenomena that RJ Lee, the USGS and others have found.
 
Last edited:
I suggest you either put up a link to support your claim or retract it.

I have read the whole report - earlier in the thread I quoted it extensively and gave a link to it- please show me where in there RJ Lee made a comparison with "ordinary office fires"?

the comparison I DID see them make was:

Particles of materials that had been modified by exposure to high temperature, such as spherical particles of iron and silicates, are common in WTC Dust because of the fire that accompanied the WTC Event, but are not common in “normal” interior office dust.
Content from External Source
- from page 5 of the report.

I see nothing about "normal dust from other FIRES" or anything of the sort mentioned at all.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
I suggest you either put up a link to support your claim or retract it.

I have read the whole report - earlier in the thread I quoted it extensively and gave a link to it- please show me where in there RJ Lee made a comparison with "ordinary office fires"?

the comparison I DID see them make was:

Particles of materials that had been modified by exposure to high temperature, such as spherical particles of iron and silicates, are common in WTC Dust because of the fire that accompanied the WTC Event, but are not common in “normal” interior office dust.
Content from External Source
- from page 5 of the report.

I see nothing about "normal dust from other FIRES" or anything of the sort mentioned at all.


You didn't read it very closely.

http://web.archive.org/web/20060114124849/http://www.nyenvirolaw.org/WTC/130 Liberty Street/Mike Davis LMDC 130 Liberty Documents/Signature of WTC dust/WTC Dust Signature.Composition and Morphology.Final.pdf

RJ Lee Group Damage Assessment 130 Liberty St. “WTC Dust Signature Study: Composition and Morphology,” Pg 24. The direct ratio of Fe spheres in "background buildings vs. TP-01" as a percent by weight is 0.04 to 5.87. I already did the math above.

I'd rather have a discussion about things which are in dispute and for which we can provide evidence to support a claim--not things which are given.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
I'd rather have a discussion about things which are in dispute and for which we can provide evidence to support a claim--not things which are given.

So would I - but you fail.

Did you try to determine what the "background buildings" are that the fire dust is being compared to?

I'll give you a hint - it's not hard to find......
.
.
.
.
.


oh all right then - Page 2 of that report defines what the background buildings were:


To evaluate the validity of the WTC Dust Signature as a unique identifier,
dust samples were collected from a number of representative office
buildings, “Background Buildings”, in typical urban locations including
Midtown Manhattan, New York City, NY, Washington, D.C., Pittsburgh and
Philadelphia, PA, and Florham Park, NJ
. See RJ Lee Group “Background
Levels in Buildings” report. Additionally, dust samples collected from the
New York City area collected and analyzed prior to 9/11/2001 were
reevaluated.
The pre-WTC Event samples, collected in the spring of 2000,
included materials from both the interiors of the World Trade Center Towers
as well as exterior samples, taken in close proximity to the Towers
. The
Background Building samples and the pre-WTC Event samples were
compared to known WTC Dust for the forensic evaluation, using the source
apportionment methodologies to determine the extent of the WTC Dust
impact.
Content from External Source
(my highlighting)

You will note that there is no mention of the "background buildings" having been on fire at or before the time of the sample collection.

So my contention remains -there is no comparison between the dust from the WTC fires and the dust from any other fires in the RJ Lee report - the comparison there is between post 9/11 fire dust from the WTC, and "normal" office dust with no fires involved.
 
So would I - but you fail.

Did you try to determine what the "background buildings" are that the fire dust is being compared to?

I'll give you a hint - it's not hard to find......
.
.
.
.
.


oh all right then - Page 2 of that report defines what the background buildings were:


To evaluate the validity of the WTC Dust Signature as a unique identifier,
dust samples were collected from a number of representative office
buildings, “Background Buildings”, in typical urban locations including
Midtown Manhattan, New York City, NY, Washington, D.C., Pittsburgh and
Philadelphia, PA, and Florham Park, NJ
. See RJ Lee Group “Background
Levels in Buildings” report. Additionally, dust samples collected from the
New York City area collected and analyzed prior to 9/11/2001 were
reevaluated.
The pre-WTC Event samples, collected in the spring of 2000,
included materials from both the interiors of the World Trade Center Towers
as well as exterior samples, taken in close proximity to the Towers
. The
Background Building samples and the pre-WTC Event samples were
compared to known WTC Dust for the forensic evaluation, using the source
apportionment methodologies to determine the extent of the WTC Dust
impact.
Content from External Source
(my highlighting)

You will note that there is no mention of the "background buildings" having been on fire at or before the time of the sample collection.

So my contention remains -there is no comparison between the dust from the WTC fires and the dust from any other fires in the RJ Lee report - the comparison there is between post 9/11 fire dust from the WTC, and "normal" office dust with no fires involved.


Therefore what? You get to ignore the Fe microspheres? What exactly is the problem here?
 
No one is ignoring the microspheres.

The problem is that you claimed that there were 150 (more or less) times more microspheres from the 9/11 fires than FROM OTHER FIRES:

There is no argument by RJ Lee or anyone else that the amount of iron microspheres in the dust is on the scale of 150 times the amount found in a "typical" office fire.
- source

You claimed this as part of a post claiming that the regularity and amount of microspheres from 9/11:

All of these phenomena may possibly contribute to a percentage of the total mass of the spheres, but none of these explanations even in total can account for the mass and regularity of the ms in the dust. If they did, the amount of iron ms would not be 150 TIMES the expected amount.
(same source)

However the sources you give do not say that the amount of microspheres is 150 times that which is expected.

Hence your objection to the "dismissal" of the ms as being unimportant by some commentators lacks the foundation you think it has - there is no evidence that the amount is unexpected (AFAIK) - hence no need to address the amount.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
No one is ignoring the microspheres.

The problem is that you claimed that there were 150 (more or less) times more microspheres from the 9/11 fires than FROM OTHER FIRES:

- source

You claimed this as part of a post claiming that the regularity and amount of microspheres from 9/11:

(same source)

However the sources you give do not say that the amount of microspheres is 150 times that which is expected.

Hence your objection to the "dismissal" of the ms as being unimportant by some commentators lacks the foundation you think it has - there is no evidence that the amount is unexpected (AFAIK) - hence no need to address the amount.


Fair enough. So is your position that the amount of iron microspheres in the WTC dust (5.87% by weight) does not need to be addressed because it is typical for an office fire?
 
Last edited by a moderator:
No.

I was making no claim about whether the 9/11 dust is different from office fires. I have no idea whether it is or not.

I was pointing out that your claim that it IS different is not supported by your sources, and therefore your objection does not need to be addressed.
 
Last edited:
Alright. Do you think burning steel wool, friction and heating rust are enough to account for the quantity of Fe microspheres?
 
I think that steel wool has nothing to do with it - it was used as an illustration of how iron can combust at much lower ignition temperatures than it's melting point, and suggesting it is an actual factor in microspheres in 9/11 dust is just silly.

As for the rest - I imagine it would take a considerable research project to determine some level of certainty.

But I do not see it as an unlikely situation that all the various sources of iron in the building generated the microspheres by a range of mechanisms including combustion, friction heating and contact with other burning or hot materials.
 
I think that steel wool has nothing to do with it - it was used as an illustration of how iron can combust at much lower ignition temperatures than it's melting point, and suggesting it is an actual factor in microspheres in 9/11 dust is just silly.

As for the rest - I imagine it would take a considerable research project to determine some level of certainty.

But I do not see it as an unlikely situation that all the various sources of iron in the building generated the microspheres by a range of mechanisms including combustion, friction heating and contact with other burning or hot materials.

Ok, so can we rule out a thermitic reaction? No. Can we assume it was a thermitic reaction? No. So what are we left with? What seems to be lacking here is a real attempt at an explanation for the Fe microspheres. There are literally tons of them in the dust. There are good reasons to conclude that temperatures exceeded those capable by a diffuse, hydrocarbon-fueled fire, or even an ideal hydrocarbon fire. Vaporization of lead, which is documented by RJ Lee Group, occurs at 1749C or 3180F. Asbestos fibers and concrete particles were pulverized in ways they had never seen before.

The energy released during a passive falling of the WTC buildings may account for the particle sizes (maybe) but it doesn't do anything towards explaining the various bodies of evidence for extremely high temperatures.

What's missing is any real curiosity about these pieces of evidence. I find that troubling. Nobody here wants to claim that steel wool is a good explanation of the ms, yet many are satisfied with the demonstration as if it answered the questions of where the ms came from. That's dismissive.

Then there are the bi-layer chips that have uniform 100 um Fe2O3 particles mixed in a substrate with some kind of uniform aluminum-silicate particle. The ignition temp for these chips was 430C or 806F--well within the range of a lighter--and which produced Fe ms as a by-product.

How incurious does one have to be to not want to make a unified theory about these facts? You want to call the chips "paint"? Ok, that doesn't change their properties. It makes it VERY expensive paint, but it doesn't change any of its characteristics.

You don't like the methods employed by Harrit, Jones and Farrer? Ok. But regardless of any criticism of methodology, the chips ignited at a relatively low temp, created a spike in temp and left iron microspheres behind. Why is this material (whether it's from a paint can or from LLNL) NOT a candidate to be studied as a possible source of the microspheres?
 
Fair enough. So is your position that the amount of iron microspheres in the WTC dust (5.87% by weight) does not need to be addressed because it is typical for an office fire?

A) It was not a typical office fire.
B) He did not say by weight. It seems more likely to be by number. Particle frequency.
C) There are no comparisons given to other fires, so how do you know how unusual it is?
 
Ok, so can we rule out a thermitic reaction? No. Can we assume it was a thermitic reaction? No. So what are we left with? What seems to be lacking here is a real attempt at an explanation for the Fe microspheres. There are literally tons of them in the dust.

there are?

There are good reasons to conclude that temperatures exceeded those capable by a diffuse, hydrocarbon-fueled fire, or even an ideal hydrocarbon fire. Vaporization of lead, which is documented by RJ Lee Group, occurs at 1749C or 3180F. Asbestos fibers and concrete particles were pulverized in ways they had never seen before.

as has been pointed out, a diffuse hydrocarbon fire is capable of IGNITING iron - which then burns with plenty of heat.

and given that no building has ever collapsed like this before (a point CT's are real quick to remind us of!) .....so what hat thngs were seen that had never been sen before? (assuming that is true.....)

The energy released during a passive falling of the WTC buildings may account for the particle sizes (maybe) but it doesn't do anything towards explaining the various bodies of evidence for extremely high temperatures.

IIRC the math has ben done on here, and yes, it does.

[What's missing is any real curiosity about these pieces of evidence.

Indeed. Probably because microspheres and pulverisation and high temperatures do not surprise people who actually know about these things would be my guess.

I find that troubling.

probably because you know little about these things woudl be my gues.

Nobody here wants to claim that steel wool is a good explanation of the ms, yet many are satisfied with the demonstration as if it answered the questions of where the ms came from. That's dismissive.

No - you are being dismissive with that conclusion.

the evidence of the steel wool was specifically about the temperature that could ignote an iron fire - something you have yet to actually understand as far as I can see.

Then there are the bi-layer chips that have uniform 100 um Fe2O3 particles mixed in a substrate with some kind of uniform aluminum-silicate particle. The ignition temp for these chips was 430C or 806F--well within the range of a lighter--and which produced Fe ms as a by-product.

what about them?

How incurious does one have to be to not want to make a unified theory about these facts?

Why is there any need to unify these ASSERTIONS you make into a theory at all?

You want to call the chips "paint"? Ok, that doesn't change their properties. It makes it VERY expensive paint, but it doesn't change any of its characteristics.

You don't like the methods employed by Harrit, Jones and Farrer? Ok. But regardless of any criticism of methodology, the chips ignited at a relatively low temp, created a spike in temp and left iron microspheres behind. Why is this material (whether it's from a paint can or from LLNL) NOT a candidate to be studied as a possible source of the microspheres?

by all means posit a theory of your own - but do try to provide some references and actual evidence instead of just your own doubts and assertions.

Because anything you can assert without evidence can also be denied without evidence.
 
It makes it VERY expensive paint
No, it makes it ordinary primer paint.

Red oxide primer paint is ordinary primer paint. "Quality" paint is made from particularly finely-ground particles. The "red oxide" is Fe2O3, magnetite, or jeweller's rouge. Iron oxide.

"Alumino-silicate" means CLAY. It is often used as a paint filler.

Very fine particles of aluminum can only be produced safely in a medium which has no oxidizing agent, or free oxygen in it, so if they had been discovered they would indeed have indicated something fishy. That is a more expensive process. But none was found.
 
the entire video should be watched, but 25 to 30 minutes talk about the thermite more specifically and there are links to go to that will debunk if you will the original claim mick made first in this post. the video itself has enough information that you can research yourself and confirm and can disprove most of what the people on this site who consider themselves "experts" are saying.
 
just look into it yourselves guys there is just as much bs on this site as there is just listening to all the nutjobs with no backing.
 
just look into it yourselves guys there is just as much bs on this site as there is just listening to all the nutjobs with no backing.
Hey thedude953. Telling people to watch a conspiracy theory video and just saying "nuh uh" won't cut much ice around here. You need to be specific. Human affairs are bloated with bs; if you want to identify something specific as bs, then by all means please do so. And provide evidence.
 
Last edited:
the entire video should be watched, but 25 to 30 minutes talk about the thermite more specifically

Ha ha - one mention of a thermite device that can cut CONCRETE??

And the rest of the evidence for thermite is exactly what has been "discussed" here and which you are clearly not actually familiar with

and there are links to go to that will debunk if you will the original claim mick made first in this post. the video itself has enough information that you can research yourself and confirm and can disprove most of what the people on this site who consider themselves "experts" are saying.

there are 2 levels of claims in the video - factual ones such as various people have various posts, various companies were in the towers, etc

And secondly therefore the 9/11 attack was to hide stuff.

The 2nd has no evidence presented beyond "therefore it must be so" - I can dismiss it with the same level of evidence - no, it didn't have to be so.

Sorry about that.:rolleyes:
 
A) It was not a typical office fire.

B) He did not say by weight. It seems more likely to be by number. Particle frequency.

C) There are no comparisons given to other fires, so how do you know how unusual it is?



A) You're right. It was not a typical office fire.

B) I'll look into this. My understanding was that it was % by weight, though I may be mistaken.

C) True. I don't know how unusual it is. But here again, it seems rather dismissive to suggest that because we don't have a good baseline for these particles in other fires that we should not look for a good explanation for them.


Do you want to know where these particles came from? There must have been a source of iron (or steel) and a source of energy. There's no shortage of steel in available materials, but if there is elemental Fe, then structural steel was almost definitely not the source--or if the steel was the source, the energy necessary to liberate carbon is also immense.

Either way, there is a thermodynamic gap. That is, where did the energy come from to do all the work required to make tons of ms, pulverize the concrete and asbestos and create the other high temp phenomena like vaporized lead and molten concrete? This is the crux of the problem with unifying all the evidence: the energy gap. Even more certain death and taxes are the laws of thermodynamics. Nothing happens for free. If metal melted, then we can guarantee that slightly more energy than is necessary to melt it was present.

Here's another thought that seems to be strained out of every debunking discussion I've seen on this: is it reasonable to theorize that whatever process created the Fe microspheres was likely from the same cause? Even if it turns out NOT to be true, wouldn't it make sense to look for a process that's responsible for the majority of the ms?


So let's take a look at some of the theories:

1. Steel wool--tons and tons of it.

No one is pushing this, just as a demonstration of the possibility that iron need not reach 1750C to melt.

2. Friction events--as the buildings collapsed, metal-on-metal plus gravity caused sparks and thus created the ms.

Although I do not doubt that metal scraped against metal in the collapses, this theory is not backed by the evidence. Ten to 100 tons of microspheres are estimated to be in the WTC dust. Show me an experiment that comes close to demonstrating this phenomenon on a proportional scale or we can safely put it on the back burner--as maybe a tertiary source of ms, a small percentage. But until it is demonstrated to produce serious amounts of Fe ms, it's just not tenable.

3. Electrical arching--electrical shorts produced high-voltage arcs and came in contact with steel support beams and created massive amounts of iron ms.

This theory should be explored. I haven't seen much on the XEDS maps of ms created from electrical arcs compared to those in the WTC dust, but it is definitely a worthwhile line of inquiry.

4. Thermitic reactions--a highly engineered nano-energetic compound was placed in the building before the attacks, and remotely ignited leaving Fe-based microspheres as a by-product.

The material found and studied by Harrit, Jones and Farrer does appear to be a highly-engineered substance. It produces Fe ms when ignited. The ms studied from burning the found chips has a very similar chemical signature to those in the WTC dust. It is an alumino-thermic reaction, which we know the low-tech version can produce temperatures in excess of 4000F. There are many questions about the mechanics of the collapses and the various pieces of evidence for high-temp reactions that this theory handles fairly well--much better than simply dismissing the evidence as "unreal" in one form or another. In a word, this is the most powerful explanatory model that exists presently. The biggest problem with this theory is the psychological leap it takes to imagine that a small group of contractors could do such a thing.
 
It would have been a combination of #2, #3, and the one you keep forgetting; FIRE.
You keep mentioning steel wool in the wrong context. The point of that experiment had nothing to do with steel wool in the building, but instead how these microspheres could be produced at temperatures within the limits of an office fire, typical or not.
Lots of fire, friction, electrical systems being destroyed, and probably more that I've missed all caused whatever amount of microspheres there.
 
No, it makes it ordinary primer paint.

Red oxide primer paint is ordinary primer paint. "Quality" paint is made from particularly finely-ground particles. The "red oxide" is Fe2O3, magnetite, or jeweller's rouge. Iron oxide.

The particle sizing is very important here and not to be dismissed as accidental. The Fe2O3 particles found in the red-gray chips is UNIFORM 100um. There is absolutely no need for paint to have uniform particle sizes of rust in order to be used as pigment. Iron oxide in paint is typically much larger and certainly not uniform. It costs WAY too much to make the particles the same size at that scale.

Take a look at this snapshot of an online catalogue for a price guide of Fe particles near this size:


Any way you cut it, these particles aren't used in paint. It would cost thousands of dollars per gallon of primer. That's simply not economically realistic for construction on this scale. It costs too much to build Fe particles just to use as pigment. Fe2O3 used in pigment is from a top-down manufacturing method, not a bottom-up approach necessary for nano-particle applications.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
It would have been a combination of #2, #3, and the one you keep forgetting; FIRE.
You keep mentioning steel wool in the wrong context. The point of that experiment had nothing to do with steel wool in the building, but instead how these microspheres could be produced at temperatures within the limits of an office fire, typical or not.
Lots of fire, friction, electrical systems being destroyed, and probably more that I've missed all caused whatever amount of microspheres there.

And what accounts for the vaporized lead? The WPI steel? The molten concrete? The other evidence of high-temperature reactions? Do those just get ignored?
 
There's no shortage of steel in available materials, but if there is elemental Fe, then structural steel was almost definitely not the source--or if the steel was the source, the energy necessary to liberate carbon is also immense.
Low carbon steel has 0.2% carbon by weight in it. It is very nearly pure iron. If burnt, the carbon will burn to carbon dioxide. That's what sparklers are.

Either way, there is a thermodynamic gap.
That's not the sort of "gap" there is, here.

That is, where did the energy come from to do all the work required to make tons of ms, pulverize the concrete and asbestos and create the other high temp phenomena like vaporized lead and molten concrete? This is the crux of the problem with unifying all the evidence: the energy gap. Even more certain death and taxes are the laws of thermodynamics. Nothing happens for free. If metal melted, then we can guarantee that slightly more energy than is necessary to melt it was present.
The tower's potential energy. That was equivalent to 95 tons of TNT in just the steelwork.

Here's another thought that seems to be strained out of every debunking discussion I've seen on this: is it reasonable to theorize that whatever process created the Fe microspheres was likely from the same cause? Even if it turns out NOT to be true, wouldn't it make sense to look for a process that's responsible for the majority of the ms?
Scraping was the cause. Steel on steel, 50,000 tons of it sliding down 50 columns for nine hundred feet. Twice.

So let's take a look at some of the theories:
No. Let's consider the facts.

The particle sizing is very important here and not to be dismissed as accidental. The Fe2O3 particles found in the red-gray chips is UNIFORM 100um.
That's larger than what is normally on offer. Cheap. Particles sixteen times smaller are used for magnetic coatings on disks and tapes. That must be quite a high demand, with low production cost overheads. Don't you think they would keep particle sizes constant for that?

Any way you cut it, these particles aren't used in paint. It would cost thousands of dollars per gallon of primer. That's simply not economically realistic for construction on this scale. It costs too much to build Fe particles just to use as pigment. Fe2O3 used in pigment is from a top-down manufacturing method, not a bottom-up approach necessary for nano-particle applications.
I'm sure TATA will give you a good price.

http://www.tatapigments.co.in/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=95&Itemid=215

You should be able to make great savings. Just as well....

 
Last edited by a moderator:
And what accounts for the vaporized lead?
Battery rooms destroyed by fire and collapse.

The WPI steel?
Who he?

The molten concrete?
Concrete is destroyed by temperatures over 800 deg C. Concrete cannot melt.

The other evidence of high-temperature reactions?
Impact, friction and electrical sparks, any of these can create plasma temperatures.

Do those just get ignored?
Facts do, by some people. Potential energy, buckling, seldom figure in a "truther's" outlook. Physics in general...
 
Last edited:
Low carbon steel has 0.2% carbon by weight in it. It is very nearly pure iron. If burnt, the carbon will burn to carbon dioxide. That's what sparklers are.


That's not the sort of "gap" there is, here.


The tower's potential energy. That was equivalent to 95 tons of TNT in just the steelwork.


Scraping was the cause. Steel on steel, 50,000 tons of it sliding down 50 columns for nine hundred feet. Twice.


No. Let's consider the facts.


If we were talking about some other event, one which there was no emotional attachment, (say trying to determine the causes of death of someone), your mish-mash of untested theories would be immediately cast aside as ridiculous. There is a solid, working theory that explains the vast array of strange physical evidence--much of which can only be categorized as "anomalous" from your loose collection of low-probability theories.

The facts:
large amounts of iron microspheres (10-100 tons worth)
molten metal
molten concrete
vaporized lead
the steel with swiss-cheese holes in it studied by Worchester Polytechnic
the relatively low burning temp of kerosine even in ideal conditions (which were not present)
the red-gray chips which produce Fe ms when ignited
the uniform 100 nm Fe2O3 particles in the red part of the chips

The nano-energetic compound theory has all of these facts pinned and explained. Theory tested and confirmed. None of the evidence need be discarded in order for the theory to make sense. According to your theories:

10-100 tons of ms: created from metal scraping against metal during the collapse. Tested? Nope. Accepted by "skeptics"? Yep.
molten metal: aluminum. All of it. Even though no such test can reproduce the effects seen.
Molten concrete: doesn't exist.
vaporized lead: ??
the WPI steel: happened in the fires after collapse. Reproducible? Nope. Accepted by "skeptics"? Yep.
the red-gray chips: primer paint. Any paint found which has particles that look like those in the chips? Nope.
the uniform 100 nm Fe2O3 particles: expected in paint primer or data media (not sure what your theory is here).
And kerosine was the direct or indirect cause of all of the high-temp phenomena observed.

This is clearly an inferior set of explanations for all the evidence. Why someone would choose a set of untested, unverified and low-probability ad hoc theories for these data sets over one TESTED and CONFIRMED theory that unifies the phenomena into a single explanation and discards none of the data as "unreal" is unclear.

Jazzy said:
That's larger than what is normally on offer. Cheap. Particles sixteen times smaller are used for magnetic coatings on disks and tapes. That must be quite a high demand, with low production cost overheads. Don't you think they would keep particle sizes constant for that?

Is this a statement of fact or of supposed certainty? Are you saying the same particles used in data storage are used in paint primer? What exactly is the purpose of this supposition? Again, I don't think you're interested in answering questions about the origins of the red-gray chips or their composition or their relationship to the iron microspheres.

And now, we have the "sparkler" theory for elemental iron in the dust. Like that's something we shouldn't be surprised to see in this situation.
 
Last edited:
Concrete cannot melt.

I assumed you were correct and checked with Google.

I got this from a debunking site:

If the World Trade Center was hot enough to melt steel, where's all the molten concrete? Iron melts around 1500o C but so do many of the silicate minerals in concrete, and a mixture of silicate minerals would melt at a temperature lower than any of the individual minerals (I'm a geologist - I get paid to know about stuff like that). The fine particle size of the concrete dust would facilitate melting. So why wasn't there a huge puddle of molten concrete at Ground Zero? (There was some, but about what you'd expect from a large fire; certainly not what you'd expect from something hot enough to melt large amounts of steel.)
Content from External Source
meta-bunk perhaps?
 
Last edited:
I assumed you were correct and checked with Google.

I got this from a debunking site:

If the World Trade Center was hot enough to melt steel, where's all the molten concrete? Iron melts around 1500o C but so do many of the silicate minerals in concrete, and a mixture of silicate minerals would melt at a temperature lower than any of the individual minerals (I'm a geologist - I get paid to know about stuff like that). The fine particle size of the concrete dust would facilitate melting. So why wasn't there a huge puddle of molten concrete at Ground Zero? (There was some, but about what you'd expect from a large fire; certainly not what you'd expect from something hot enough to melt large amounts of steel.)
Content from External Source
meta-bunk perhaps?


It sounds like you're not denying the existence of molten concrete, is that correct?
 
"Molten concrete" sounds like a topic for another thread.

Perhaps you could back up a little, and offer precise evidence for the total weight of microspheres?
 
your mish-mash of untested theories would be immediately cast aside as ridiculous
That I'm an engineer, and you obviously aren't, might have something to do with the way you have framed this response.

strange physical evidence--much of which can only be categorized as "anomalous" from your loose collection of low-probability theories.
These aren't theories, but physical properties known to engineers, and other scientists.

I shall bunch these "facts" with their answers:
large amounts of iron microspheres (10-100 tons worth) - Scraping was the cause. Steel on steel, 50,000 tons of it sliding down 50 columns for nine hundred feet. Twice.
molten metal - Sixty tons of duralumin airframe held in a "muffle furnace" at a temperature above 650 deg C for an hour produces "molten metal".
molten concrete - Concrete is destroyed by temperatures over 800 deg C. Concrete cannot melt any more than plaster can melt, as they are materials formed by water of crystallization.
vaporized lead - Battery rooms destroyed by fire and collapse.
the steel with swiss-cheese holes in it studied by Worchester Polytechnic - Accelerated high-temperature rusting.
the relatively low burning temp of kerosine - Irrelevant. The tower's potential energy (in just the steelwork) was equivalent to 95 tons of TNT, and could raise 1,200 tons of iron to melt.
the red-gray chips which produce Fe ms when ignited - Red oxide primer under aluminum paint would do the same. The tower steelwork was primed with red oxide primer and coated with aluminum paint.
the uniform 100 nm Fe2O3 particles in the red part of the chips - Are slightly larger than the brochure above offers you, and normal for red oxide primer paint.

Science is apparently "a set of untested, unverified and low-probability ad hoc theories". Well, bully for you.

Are you saying the same particles used in data storage are used in paint primer? What exactly is the purpose of this supposition? Again, I don't think you're interested in answering questions about the origins of the red-gray chips or their composition or their relationship to the iron microspheres. And now, we have the "sparkler" theory for elemental iron in the dust. Like that's something we shouldn't be surprised to see in this situation.
Yes, I AM saying that. (Edit: same material, but the particle size for data storage is sixteen times smaller.)

Must I be subjected to abuse because I know information you don't? Or are you actually going to do proper research instead of merely attempting to verify your ludicrous preconceptions?
 
Last edited:
Did a bit of practical research into the scraping method of production of iron microspheres. Basically abrading steel so that it sparks seems to create microspheres. I took an angle grinder to a steel dumbell, and collected the sparks (and obviously anything else that flew off) using a very strong magnet under some paper. The results were a lot of steel that looked melted, and a quite a lot of spherical shiny objects.



 
Last edited:
Did a bit of practical research into the scraping method of production of iron microspheres. Basically abrading steel so that it sparks seems to create microspheres. I took an angle grinder to a steel dumbell, and collected the sparks (and obviously anything else that flew off) using a very strong magnet under some paper. The results were a lot of steel that looked melted, and a quite a lot of spherical shiny objects.





I always thought they were called 'iron filings'. Doesn't appear to be anything 'micro' or spherical about them.

What would you expect thermitic residue to look like and how would it be different to rust or iron particles?
 
Last edited by a moderator:
I always thought they were called 'iron filings'. Doesn't appear to be anything 'micro' or spherical about them.

I need to get a better microscope. The shiny highlights there are from spherical objects, and I saw a few individual spheres too.
 
I need to get a better microscope. The shiny highlights there are from spherical objects, and I saw a few individual spheres too.
Put in a requisition to Q... Make sure you don't damage it. :)

But seriously, how do you think thermitic residue would/should differ from the standard debunker explanations of the microspheres found and presented as evidence of thermite usage?
 
Put in a requisition to Q... Make sure you don't damage it. :)

But seriously, how do you think thermitic residue would/should differ from the standard debunker explanations of the microspheres found and presented as evidence of thermite usage?

I don't know that it would. Why are you asking me?
 
Back
Top