Claim: Malaysian experts were shot at by Ukraine SU-25 and by GRAD

mvdb22

Member
In this video Alexander Borodai said the the team of 12 Malaysian experts were shot at by a SU-25 while enroute from Kharkiv to Donetsk. The team later was attacked by the Ukraine army with GRAD shelling.

The reason according to Borodai was to prevent the team from getting to the MH17 crash site.

The statement by Borodai starts at 21:00 in the video

I have not found any prove for this statemen the in press. Maybe someone has?
 

jonnyH

Senior Member.
In this video Alexander Borodai said the the team of 12 Malaysian experts were shot at by a SU-25 while enroute from Kharkiv to Donetsk. The team later was attacked by the Ukraine army with GRAD shelling.
I don't think its unfair to expect some corroboration from the Malaysian authorities but it seems they are more concerned about cold weather;
http://www.thesundaily.my/news/1199428
and difficult negotiations with disparate separatist groups:
http://www.thesundaily.my/news/1199428
http://www.thestar.com.my/News/Nation/2014/10/15/MH17-negotiation-crash-site/
In the absence of supporting evidence, which given the allegations should be plentiful, Borodai's word is not worth much.
 

mvdb22

Member
The supposed attack by SU-25 and GRAD happened around July 12.

JonnyH -> you are quoting articles dating from October. So this does not say anything about the statement I like to debunk or confirmed!

I have my strong doubts about Borodai's words as well.
 

Rob

Member
I'm sorry. We got off to a bumpy start, although I believe that the exact date (and time and place) is important in this case to successfully debunk or confirm the statements made.

To get started on this, I suggest that we separate the allegations by Borodai about the trip of 12 Malaysian experts into three parts :

1) When the team of 12 Malaysian experts "arrived near the village of Yasinovataya, their car was attacked from the air by a SU-25 of the Ukrainian air force", and

2) "on their way to Donetsk, they ended up under a Ukrainian GRAD shelling".

3) the reason that the Ukrainians did (1) and (2) is to "prevent the team from getting to the MH17 crash site".

Assuming that these three statements are a fair definition of the claim in this case, I'd like to start with a quick assessment :

Regarding (1) Borodai knows that there is no evidence to debunk (1), since it never happened. So we can never debunk it.

Regarding point (2), even if we showed proof that GRAD shelling of Donetsk on the 21st was actually done by Borodai's own forces then we still cannot even debunk point (2) because Borodai stated "on their way to" Donetsk, not "in" Donetsk. Besides, that shelling happened in the morning and the Malaysians arrived in the evening.

Regarding (3), note that Borodai does not say explicitly that "the reason".."was to prevent the team from getting to the MH17 crash site". That reason is only implied because of the prior statements he makes from the 19:00 mark. And both you and me fell for that.

The REAL reason that the 12 Malaysian experts went to Donetsk on the 21st was to obtain the MH17 flight recorders. Which they did, eventually, after hours of negotiations with ... Mr. Borodai himself...

Considering that Borodai did not provide ANY evidence to his statements, I would like to make a counter-statement that is sustained by the little evidence we have, and does not suffer from Borodai's implication of reason :

When the 12 Malaysian experts went to Donetsk on the 21st, they were neither targeted by a Ukrainian SU25 nor by Ukrainian GRADs, while Mr. Borodai's own pro-Russian forces fired GRAD missiles on civilian targets in Donetsk in the morning of the 21st, for which they promptly blamed the Ukrainians, while the Malaysian experts went to Donetsk to obtain the flight recorders for MH17, which they did after hours of negotiations providing undisclosed concessions to Mr. Borodai himself.

That should not be hard to debunk if it is not true.
 
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Ray Von Geezer

Senior Member.
This RT news report Ukraine air force strikes 30km from plane crash site despite ban from the 22nd mentions both GRAD and airstrikes, but only that 12 Malaysian officials witnessed an artillery attack on their way to Donetsk, not that they actually came under attack.

Ray Von
 

mvdb22

Member
Thanks Ray, I was looking for this kind of press reports. However RT is not the most reliable news source. I guess from the lack of confirmation in Malaysian press we can safely conclude the attack never happened.
 

Ray Von Geezer

Senior Member.
Thanks Ray, I was looking for this kind of press reports. However RT is not the most reliable news source. I guess from the lack of confirmation in Malaysian press we can safely conclude the attack never happened.
I agree re: RT, but I think the value of that particular report is that they didn't report it as a direct attack on the inspectors. If it had been (or even if someone had hinted it was) I'm sure they would have been pushing it quite hard.

As you say, the clearest indicator is the lack of any reports in the Malaysian press, or accusations from the inspectors themselves.

Ray Von
 

Rob

Member
I agree re: RT, but I think the value of that particular report is that they didn't report it as a direct attack on the inspectors. If it had been (or even if someone had hinted it was) I'm sure they would have been pushing it quite hard.

As you say, the clearest indicator is the lack of any reports in the Malaysian press, or accusations from the inspectors themselves.

Ray Von
Also interesting is that RT cites their source as "the militia in the east", for which the PR spokesperson is... Mr. Borodai himself.
 
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