1. qed

    qed Senior Member

    I shall focus on one claim of evidence, with three subclaims.

    theguardian

    The following analysis, undertaken by thegatewaypundit together with journalist and author Thomas Wictor claims to show that the yearbook entry is a fake.

    [ADMIN NOTE - The blue black color difference appears to be an artifact of the depth of field, see: https://www.metabunk.org/explained-...re-depth-of-field-chromatic-aberration.t9253/ ]

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]
    Roy Moore's lawyers are calling this a fake too.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Nov 16, 2017 at 11:56 AM
  2. Z.W. Wolf

    Z.W. Wolf Active Member

    The blue ink starts after the name Roy; so it was written by some other guy who didn't put his last name in. Then recently the rest was put in. Is that the accusation?


    Pure speculation...

    -The girl wrote the message herself, then went to Moore to put his signature behind it. At the time she was a young admirer.

    -Maybe the black ink pen stopped writing and he switched to another.

    Can a chemical analysis of the blue ink be done to determine its age?

    They're noting that the signature is not exactly the same between the yearbook version and more recent documents. My signature has changed significantly across the decades. And signatures vary somewhat even when done in succession. The hallmark of a crude forgery is when the forged signature is absolutely identical to a single example of a genuine signature.
     
    Last edited: Nov 16, 2017 at 9:16 AM
  3. Z.W. Wolf

    Z.W. Wolf Active Member

    You get your yearbook in May or June, just before school ends. Your friends sign at that time. But this message was written near (the following?) Christmas. Odd if we're to believe the hypothesis that first part of the message was written by a school friend coincidentally named Roy. Your high school friends just don't sign at Christmas.
     
    Last edited: Nov 16, 2017 at 9:41 AM
  4. Mick West

    Mick West Administrator Staff Member

    I think the theory is that more that one person forged the whole thing, but they did it with two different pens, the second person adding the "Moore ...." etc, to make it seem more real.
     
  5. NoParty

    NoParty Senior Member

    [off topic text removed. Blue ink topic split to https://www.metabunk.org/explained-...re-depth-of-field-chromatic-aberration.t9253/ ]
    Hmmm...sincerely not clear why documenting the sketchy credibility of
    the one source
    alleging "blue ink" would be 'off topic'...but I'm over it... :)



    Also, I think it's important to note that when Phillip Jauregui (Moore's lawyer) challenged the yearbook
    yesterday, he was careful not to declare it forged...he was more 'just asking questions.'
    "We'll find out: Is it genuine, or is it a fraud?"
    Interestingly, he said nothing about supposedly blue ink.
     
    Last edited: Nov 16, 2017 at 6:36 PM
  6. Z.W. Wolf

    Z.W. Wolf Active Member

    I can't find a single photo - other than the one in the Gatewaypundit article - that shows different colored inks.

    Except here: http://reverbpress.com/politics/won...p-conspiracy-theory-to-defend-perv-roy-moore/

     
  7. SR1419

    SR1419 Senior Member

    I was just going to ask what the provenance of that photo was...If one were to forge a signature, would it be likely they would use 2 different colored pens to do so?
     
  8. Rory

    Rory Active Member

    And yet, even zooming in on the two different sections from this image shows that the ink is the same colour:

    colours1.

    My speculation is that "12-22-77 Olde Hickory House" (and maybe "D.A.") was written by someone different, though with the same pen, and that the rest was written by Roy Moore. Certainly, the signatures appear to match incredibly well, and much closer than mine will when written five minutes apart.
     
    Last edited: Nov 16, 2017 at 12:45 PM
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  9. deirdre

    deirdre Moderator Staff Member

    people are saying the 7s are wrong. I think she wrote everything after Roy (to document who Roy was) and probably just forgot she did since it was 40 years ago. I would do that - (add notes as to who it is) - and the handwriting looks female to me.
     
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  10. deirdre

    deirdre Moderator Staff Member

  11. qed

    qed Senior Member

    If she wrote "Moore" after "Roy," then why is "Moore" so close to the actual signature? That would be a forgery.

    [​IMG]
     
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  12. deirdre

    deirdre Moderator Staff Member

    true. maybe since she was working at the restaurant when he signed it (although why anyone would want a signature of a new assistant DA I couldn't tell you!) .. he signed it Roy, then she read it later and saw he only put Roy. Grabbing a different pen from her waitress outfit she asked him to put his last name.. then in the kitchen she added the handwritten notes. ?
     
  13. Rory

    Rory Active Member

    Another part of Wictor's defense is that the y's are different. But comparing with the signature Deirdre posted above, that falls down also. In the two 'official' signatures, he has signed his middle initial, but not on the one at the diner. Meanwhile, the 'M' from the diner is closer to the one above than the one from the divorce papers, while the similarities of the R's are far more striking than the differences. All this seems perfectly plausible given the passing of time and natural variances.
     
    Last edited: Nov 16, 2017 at 11:10 AM
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  14. Rory

    Rory Active Member

    Moore's attorney questions the authenticity of the writing in the yearbook in this video:



    Interestingly, he focuses on the numbers 7s, "Olde Hickory House", and the initials "D.A." He says they're clearly not in Moore's handwriting. But he doesn't say anything about the entire rest of the note or the signature - which one would think he would, had they not been written by Moore.

    Likewise, though they've released his signature, wouldn't it be logical to share a sample of his handwriting, which must be different to that in the note if he didn't write it?

    CNN video of the yearbook is here (set to start at 1:58):



    Screenshot from the video appears to show the ink consistently coloured across the page:

    Screenshot (330).

    Note: this doesn't appear to be the footage the image in the OP was taken from: that image has the woman's thumb on the page, by the dark shape at the left, whereas that doesn't appear to happen in the 10 seconds of this clip.
     
    Last edited: Nov 16, 2017 at 4:02 PM
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  15. Z.W. Wolf

    Z.W. Wolf Active Member

    I've done exactly that in books I got autographed by the author. Place and date after the author's autograph.

    I don't know that she wrote the "Moore." It's likely that this blue ink thing is a hoax.
     
    Last edited: Nov 16, 2017 at 6:18 PM
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  16. deirdre

    deirdre Moderator Staff Member

  17. Trailblazer

    Trailblazer Moderator Staff Member

    Does anybody actually claim that "Olde Hickory House" is in his handwriting? It seems pretty obvious to me that those words and the date 12-22-77 are written by someone else - presumably Nelson, as a reminder of when and where she got the signature.

    That part of the inscription doesn't match the rest and looks like female handwriting to me. But the signature looks perfectly genuine.
     
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  18. NoParty

    NoParty Senior Member

    The whole freakin' thing is weird.
    Both Moore and the lawyer kept dancing around it,
    as if expecting some day to have to fess up, but not tooooo embarrassingly...thus choosing words too carefully,
    and not--as you point out--just boldly declaring that Moore didn't write any of it.

    But since Moore's story is that he's never met Ms. Nelson, and is not at all familiar with "Olde Hickory House,"
    that she claims he was "a regular" at, etc., his story is already fully committed to it not being possible
    that he ever signed her yearbook. So all the weird evasiveness seems entirely unnecessary. Weird.
     
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  19. Rory

    Rory Active Member

    Moore supporters on Twitter seem to be focusing on the "D.A." The theory goes that Moore signed Nelson's divorce papers (or the signature was stamped by the assistant) and the assistant/clerk put his/her initials - which Nelson then unsuspectingly copied, thinking it stood for 'District Attorney'. The name most often quoted for the assistant is Deborah Adams, though Dilbert Adams is mentioned also (including in the Chicago Tribune).

    Some will wryly note that Dilbert is the name of the cartoon creation of Scott Adams.

    Anyway, for the supporters, this doubt around the "D.A." is enough. For me, it seems like a curious puzzle. Moore was Assistant District Attorney in December 1977, though Nelson refers to him a few times as being the District Attorney. Is it possible that she noted this after the 'autograph' and Moore's clerk had those initials and wrote them on documents in the same place?

    Of course, if he didn't write any of the note, why don't they just say "that's not his handwriting" and release some samples to show it? Very strange defense.
     
  20. qed

    qed Senior Member

    The Washington Post asked an expert to analyse the text.
    Given @Mick West's debunking of claim one, the the alleged different colored texts, there is currently no evidence to support forgery. We just do not have enough texts, yet...

    But...

    While we (and Songer) don't yet have access to enough of Moore's texts to analyse the image for forgery, Moore's defence team do. While direct access to the yearbook will help, they have sufficient samples to call in a handwriting expert like Songer and tear the "forgery" to shreds.

    As @Rory noted, to date they have not.
     
    Last edited: Nov 17, 2017 at 10:10 AM
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  21. Rory

    Rory Active Member

    I've managed to find some examples of Roy Moore's handwriting, which can be compared to the inscription in the yearbook:

    moore1.
    Source: twitter.com/WarOnDumb/status/930163967783292928

    moore2.
    Source: twitter.com/BobVanceJr/status/930221242375864320

    Seems very clear to me that all three were either written by the same person, or by an incredibly skilled forger.

    Compare the Ts, for example:

    Ts.
    Not 100% exactly the same, but the same distinctive style, and as alike as most of us write our letters.

    We can also compare what looks like 'Jerry' in the biography inscription, and 'Merry' in the yearbook:

    Jerry. merry.

    Again, not exact, but basically the same styles - bearing in mind that they were written 32 years apart.

    I won't go over all the similarities, of which many could be made - nor can I find any glaring differences, beyond the slight variances that would be expected.

    The thing is, for those who support him, it is the differences that are key, and what they are focused on. Hence analyses like this:

    [​IMG]
    Source: cowgernation.com/2017/11/14/vindicated-signature-forged-12-discrepancies-roy-moores-alleged-yearbook-signature/

    Sure, there are subtle differences - though obviously we can discount 9 thru 12 - but it's the similarities that are more glaring in my eyes, and I guess this is where an awareness of confirmation bias comes in, on both sides.

    I wonder, though, if those producing analyses like this will have found suspicion in the marked differences in the different ways he has printed his name in the two places in the above image, or in the various examples of his accepted signature, which are about as different from one another as any of them are from the one in the yearbook:

    sig1.JPG sig2.JPG sig4.JPG sig6. sig5.
    sig7. sig3.

    Note: all of these signatures contain his middle initial. Would be quite interesting to find when he started doing this.
     
    Last edited: Nov 17, 2017 at 1:53 PM
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  22. Remarkable consistency. I once spent half an hour in a a Grenoble bank trying (almost in vain) to replicate my own signature on travelers checks.
     
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  23. Allen D

    Allen D New Member

    Where’s the “S”? Why is his middle initial missing in the yearbook inscription? If someone is going to take the time to include initials (DA), wouldn’t they also include the “S”? I took a look at the signature on the “divorce” papers, it’s there as well.
     
  24. Rory

    Rory Active Member

    Indeed. My speculation is that at some time between 1977 and 1999 he started adding the 'S'. Or possibly he didn't use it back then for 'casual' signatures - though seems to now, given the book autograph.
     
    Last edited: Nov 18, 2017 at 7:20 AM