1. Clouds Givemethewillies

    Clouds Givemethewillies Active Member

    Many thanks. I think I was close enough. I'll PM you a photo so that you can work out the height of Ladder Wall above the water..
    Here is the tide: http://www.ukho.gov.uk/easytide/easytide/ShowPrediction.aspx?PortID=0488&PredictionLength=1
  2. Clouds Givemethewillies

    Clouds Givemethewillies Active Member

    I have another cunning plan. Mount a 'red dot finder' on top of a pendulum or electronic gyro mount, like RCT junior. Although it would have to be set at sea level, I could make a continuous video of driving down a hill, overlooking the sea, so the adjustment could not be fiddled with. It would look like this: (vis + IR} pendulum cam.
    Last edited: May 20, 2017
  3. Clouds Givemethewillies

    Clouds Givemethewillies Active Member

    I managed cock this method up, so it is not fool proof, Guess how.
    Last edited by a moderator: May 26, 2017
  4. Clouds Givemethewillies

    Clouds Givemethewillies Active Member

    Mirror Cam with a better webcam using a lense from binoculars. Test2_0_20170526073256.
  5. Rory

    Rory Senior Member

    Here's a video of someone using the liquid level at various elevations (sea level, 1200 feet, and 5600 feet):

    On the plus side, it shows exactly what we would expect - that the level of the liquid is somewhat higher than the horizon:

    horizon level liquid test.

    On the negative, he neither used a tripod for the camera, nor a stable base/frame for his level.
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  6. Bas Koning

    Bas Koning New Member

    I was thinking about this design to create a scale for fine degrees.
    Basically its a perfectly straight wooden plank with a protractor glued to the bottom. Roll up some thin strip of paper till its diameter fits 10 degrees at the top of the protractor. Measure and note down the distance (d).

    At twice that distance, the angle of view would be halved. So, at 2d, it will be 5 degrees.
    At 4d 2.5 degrees, at 8d 1.25 degrees, and at 16d 0.625 degrees. Etc.

    Glue the rolled up paper strip at the desired distance to make it measure your angle.
    For instance, if you want 0.5 degrees, you can calculate the amount of d's you need for that. (its ehm.. its.. ehm.. )

    Also glue one at the very beginning. Look thru it to measure the angle: all of it visible inside with space to spare: the arc length is below the angle measured. Some of the object visible outside the visor: arc is larger. Object fits visor: object is about same arc as the angle measured.

    Perfect for moon watching. Attach welders glass in front, and measure suns arc length.

    Yes, the error would be 'large', but not HUGE. And it would show that the size stays the same during a 24 h day. Which is the whole point.
  7. Mick West

    Mick West Administrator Staff Member

    What he did is sufficient though. The rig uses large tubes, which is a great idea as it stabilizes the water level much quicker than the thin tube. The base is rock, and while he wobbles it around a bit, you can see it's pretty consistent. I'd declare this a win!
  8. Bas Koning

    Bas Koning New Member

    I have written some code that outputs this:
    You can pretty easy use it if you have some tube lying around: just measure the inside diameter, put in the desired degrees to measure, and it will tell you how long the apparatus should be. Also can tell you where to put the scale lines for the degrees.
    Here is the explanation for the math, and the general design:
    This could be one side of a wooden plank, the water level on the other side of it, calibrated to the top of the inner tube. Or without the water level to watch sun or moon.

    Put it on a 360 degree foot with 2 small water levels (for horizontal x and y axis), a compass, make it turn 360 vertical, and you have a decent DIY theodolite.

    I also included the python code (rename .txt to .py).
    If anyone spots a problem, please tell.

    Attached Files:

    Last edited: Jul 10, 2017
  9. Mike Dunlavey

    Mike Dunlavey New Member

    This is a great idea.

    I had a different idea, which is to sight opposite horizons at the same time. If as FEers say "the horizon rises to eye level" it should be possible to sight at opposite horizons with a single straight line.
    I'm waiting until the next time I fly somewhere to try this out. All it takes is daylight, a good high altitude, and something straight, like the edge of a piece of paper:


    Attached Files:

    Last edited: Aug 31, 2017
  10. Laser

    Laser New Member

    Yes, sighting both horizons at once could be interesting. I had thought of doing it with a device called a "line ranger", as seen on page 8 of "Principles and Use of Surveying Instruments" Third Edition 1969. A line ranger is just two mirrors at a 90deg angle so that you can see two opposite directions at once, perpendicular to your line of sight, so that you can see if you are exactly on a straight line between two points. I had thought that flat earth investigators could even make their own very cheaply and simply, and even calibrate it themselves, so they could verify themselves that it was accurate. But then I realized that it would be hard to find a place near the coast of California that I could view the ocean from a high mountain with ocean in both directions 180deg apart. Plus I realized that even a relatively simple construction project could be a significant obstacle. I couldn't readily find suppliers for these line rangers. Probably because of the insufficiently specific search words "line" and "ranger", and because surveyors probably use them less in todays world of GPS surveying.

    Then I realized that a tube level might work well. I'm clearly not the first to think of that. One small obstacle there is getting the clear tubing. A solution could be to use a garden hose. A garden hose would allow a nice long baseline for very precise leveling. Unfortunately it doesn't make for easy photography of the water surfaces with the horizon. I was thinking of just filling the hose completely to each end. One issue there is that the hoses all seem to have a loose metal thread ring on the female end that might leak if filled all the way. But it seems workable, and probably nearly all flat earth investigators have, or could borrow, a hose. I was thinking of sticking a couple short pieces of clear tubing into the ends of the garden hose, but who would happen to have pieces of just the right size? Maybe we could improvise some clear end pieces, like say by wrapping some clear packing tape around the ends of the hose, or hot gluing some water bottles to the ends.

    Viewing out opposite windows of an airliner would be great. The altitude would give a large angle. There are a couple issues I can see. One is that it may be hard to keep the straight edge level between viewing from one side and the next. One solution to that might be to set up two cameras, one at each end facing opposite directions. Then you could edit the two videos or pictures together to show a simultaneous view and reduce the doubts that flat earthers might have about the stability of the straight edge. Each camera would tend to block the view of the other, so you might have to set each up along two different parallel straight edges, and make calibration images before and after. Another possibility might be to put a camera at one end of the straight edge, and a mirror next to the other end.

    Another tougher problem might be that the flat earthers might blame the horizon droop angle on refraction through the tilted/curved airline windows.

    @Bas Koning - Your device looks like it might be interesting, but the blue graph paper image is a little too blurry for me to make out what's shown, even when I enlarge it. As far as graduating an angle measuring device is concerned, one trick is to use a linear scale, such as a centimeter ruler or tape. For example, if you mount a couple centimeters of a centimeter ruler, 57.3cm away from the location of the eye, then for small angles, the centimeters will represent full degrees and the millimeters will represent 1/10 of a degree, or 6 minutes of angle. Another idea for measuring angles with a little accuracy over a wider range, is the CD jewel case sextant like this:
    Unfortunately I would say it's not usable to look at the sun without a proper professional sun shade, not a homemade one. But that still leaves a lot of other things one can measure. The cool thing about sextants is that you can do accurate angle measurements just hand held, without a stable mount, because both images of the two objects being viewed move together when you wobble the sextant.

    @Everyone - A great time to catch these tube level images would be at sunrise/sunset or moonrise/moonset, so that the actual horizon level could be more accurately seen, and also so that a sense of scale for the droop angle would be in the frame. Unfortunately ,it usually gets foggy by sunset around here. Also, the sun cuts through horizon haze better, but it creates camera exposure and possible eye damage complications. Remember, even if the haze has cut the visible sun brightness to a comfortable level, that may not mean that the invisible longer infrared and shorter ultraviolet wavelengths may not still be getting through at dangerous levels. You can't feel the burn from the invisible wavelengths. And just because you or others have looked at it before doesn't mean that it didn't or won't cause just a little eye damage, like maybe slightly degrading your night vision or something that you don't immediately notice. I would however be willing to risk my low end camera sensor pointing at a dim sun near the horizon. For photographing the full brightness sun, I cut a pair of polycarbonate sun glasses up into seven pieces to stack in front of my camera lens. At first I thought that would be tolerably good for naked eye viewing as well, then I realized that although the polycarbonate might block all the UV, the pigments might not block the long infrared wavelengths well at all.
  11. George Tasker

    George Tasker New Member

    I've created a spreadsheet dealing with calculations associated with the FE conflict.
    Source: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/e/2PACX-1vQpZV2GFHdJ2EHKxCDq-6gvROUlgzsl9TdkEUCHhnI2iZgwqi-J8FQBEcZYHYLh5a38EzhbnRX7cxf4/pubhtml

    Now I wanted to know what the angle of declination was per unit height and also the drop of the earth as one moved from a location.

    Now I've arrived at a few conclusions.

    1. At the average airline cruising altitude of around 11 kilometres there is a declination of around three degrees. Not enough for the average observe to detect without some kind of instrument such as a theodolite.

    2. FE'rs are wasting their time with height altitude experiments because once again even if you reach an altitude of 22km the declination to the horizon is still only going to be about five degrees and will not be noticeable to the casual observer.

    3. The international space station should see a declination to the horizon of about twenty degrees. By now it should be definitely noticeable.

    I've put the formulas I used at the top of each column.

    Have at it folks. Feel free to check my formulas and see if there's any errors. They will be easy enough to fix.
    Last edited by a moderator: Oct 1, 2017
  12. Enricks

    Enricks Member


    Is the 2.2° on the left the dip? Shouldn't it be dipping more at 36000ft?
  13. Mick West

    Mick West Administrator Staff Member

    No, that's the tilt, like here I'm tilting my phone 34.6°
    Metabunk 2018-04-15 09-42-58.

    At 36,000 feet the dip is a bit over 3°

    In this app you'd see it on the right, if you aligned the crosshairs with the horizon. The iPhone would need to be calibrated though - they are often off by a degree or two.