LarryLobster
New Member
This ought to be updated to include UAPTF and the other recent USG establishments. I am curious to see how many such individuals are connected to the IC legislation passed.
UAPs, Bigelow, and the "Invisible College"
- Thread starter Mick West
- Start date
This ought to be updated to include UAPTF and the other recent USG establishments. I am curious to see how many such individuals are connected to the IC legislation passed.
Luis Cayetano
New Member
Thanks Larry! I'll be doing that soon.
Luis Cayetano
New Member
Hi Larry, here's the latest chart which includes an entry for UAPTF. Reach out to me if you see anything that you think should be added to it.
Mendel
Senior Member.
NorCal Dave
Senior Member.
I gotta make a big print out of Luis' chart for my shop. He does such a good job.
Mendel
Senior Member.
Americans for Safe Aerospace (ASA)
Source: https://www.reddit.com/r/UFOs/comments/1465ccp/this_is_ryan_graves_and_the_team_at_americans_for/
External Quote:
Scaramanga
Senior Member
I increasingly think the reason we never get 'disclosure' is nothing more sinister than that there simply is nothing to disclose....other than the embarrassing revelation that the Pentagon wasted $22m investigating dino-beavers and 10 foot tall wolves that walk on 2 legs.
When people start ignoring groups whose name has been in the news too long or too often, new groups will pop up. Like Americans for Safe Aerospace (ASA) Funny how a group that seems to be mostly about UAP's does not mention that fact in their name, which is such a bland name it almost seems like they are hiding their focus. Easier for fundraising purposes maybe?
The Invisible College seems to be very involved, which is very unsurprising. Personally I think that group should actually be called "The Usual Suspects", as they always seem nearby when something UAP is being discussed.
The use of the term "Safe" in the ASA name is curious to me. It would appear that UAP pilots are very safe pilots. How many crashes have been caused by flying saucers running into airliners, or military jets for that matter? (And I wouldn't count planes that crashed while chasing something to be victims of that something unless alien bullet holes were found in the wreckage.)
The Invisible College seems to be very involved, which is very unsurprising. Personally I think that group should actually be called "The Usual Suspects", as they always seem nearby when something UAP is being discussed.
The use of the term "Safe" in the ASA name is curious to me. It would appear that UAP pilots are very safe pilots. How many crashes have been caused by flying saucers running into airliners, or military jets for that matter? (And I wouldn't count planes that crashed while chasing something to be victims of that something unless alien bullet holes were found in the wreckage.)
Mendel
Senior Member.
Graves calls it "the first military pilot-led nonprofit organization focused on UAP", and they have a "Aircrew Leadership Council and Advisory Board", so you'd assume they're mostly pilots, right? Well...
Taking the names from my above quote:
• Ryan Graves, pilot
• Haley Morris, BA Geography, Religion, Communications Director
• Brad Crispin, B.A. Classical Studies(Latin), Engineering Manager
• Alex Dietrich, pilot
• David Fravor, pilot
• Bryan Bender, journalist
• Tim Gallaudet, admiral/oceanographer
• Christopher Mellon, politician/intelligence
• Garry Nolan, immunologist
• Avi Loeb, theoretical physicist
Are these people qualified to keep aerospace safe? You decide.
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John J.
Senior Member.
I suppose if 'Oumuamua returns, broadcasting messages that it's going to land at the site of Noah's ark,
we'll be glad that Avi Loeb and a geography/ religion graduate are on the case.
Generally, for AMAs on zealous subreddits like r/ufos, it's a good idea to sort comments by controversial. Non-softball questions tend to get downvoted, and you'll have a better chance of seeing actual questions when sorted this way. Unfortunately, Graves didn't really answer a single tough question.
LilWabbit
Senior Member
Graves calls it "the first military pilot-led nonprofit organization focused on UAP", and they have a "Aircrew Leadership Council and Advisory Board", so you'd assume they're mostly pilots, right? Well...
Taking the names from my above quote:
• Ryan Graves, pilot
• Haley Morris, BA Geography, Religion, Communications Director
• Brad Crispin, B.A. Classical Studies(Latin), Engineering Manager
• Alex Dietrich, pilot
• David Fravor, pilot
• Bryan Bender, journalist
• Tim Gallaudet, admiral/oceanographer
• Christopher Mellon, politician/intelligence
• Garry Nolan, immunologist
• Avi Loeb, theoretical physicist
Are these people qualified to keep aerospace safe? You decide.
Literally the usual suspects. Was this from their website?
LilWabbit
Senior Member
I suppose if 'Oumuamua returns, broadcasting messages that it's going to land at the site of Noah's ark,
we'll be glad that Avi Loeb and a geography/ religion graduate are on the case.
Whenever 'oh mama' whizzes by our solar system, you need your oceanographer and religion major at hand to make sense of stuff.
Mendel
Senior Member.
On the ASA website, they list 7 pilots for the Aircrew Leadership Council, and 11 non-pilots for the Advisory Board.
Article: Who should get involved with Americans for Safe Aerospace?
Anyone who believes in the mission of Americans for Safe Aerospace and wants to join the fight for transparency about UAP is encouraged to get involved. We welcome everyone, from pilots and aerospace workers, to concerned citizens to scientists and academics and government officials.
How are staff paid?
ASA staff are volunteers. ASA can accept limited donations intended for staff.
Our tax-deductible status with the IRS is pending.
At the core of ASA is this:
It's a classic example of "the government is covering something up", which makes ASA an organisation committed to lobbying politics for a conspiracy theory.Article: Congress has only ever held two hearings on UAP, the first of which took place last year, and little was revealed to the public. ASA believes that we need more transparency from our government on this important issue.
It's basically "Architects and Engineers for 9/11 Truth", except with pilots and UFOs.
Scaramanga
Senior Member
It's worse than that. Their information 'sources' are each other...in a sort of self-supporting chain. It is all a hall of mirrors. So we now find that Grusch was mentored by Lue Elizondo, who in turn has bounced back and forth sources of info with Chris Mellon, and the whole circle just goes round and round. Throw in some Skinwalker Ranch, dino-beavers...the usual 'I know what I saw' from pilots who submit Batman balloons as sinister threats to US security....add Congress people who've been taken in by it all.....mix this recipe well, simmer for 50 years, and we are ripe for Condon Report 2023, which will waste millions of dollars to once again report 'nothing to see here'. And then the whole charade will start all over again.
MonkeeSage
Senior Member.
I searched around the forums but did not see this mentioned, apologies if I missed it. Apparently Douglas Kurth, who was involved in the 2004 Nimitz Tic Tac incident, later worked for Bigelow under BAASS/AAWSAP and is the one who brought the case to their attention.
Article: Douglas Kurth - December 2007
On the LinkedIn website [as at February 2019] Douglas Kurth has an entry. Part of it states that between December 2007 and June 2013, he was employed by Bigelow Aerospace Advanced Space Studies (BAASS), based in Las Vegas, Nevada, USA. The entry identifies him as a former Marine Corps Senior Officer, Commander and Naval aviator, which precisely matched the Douglas Kurth who reported being involved in the 2004 USS Nimitz encounters. Kurth on the LinkedIn website describes his role at BAASS as including:
"Program lead - novel and emerging space technologies targeting operational deployment in 2040.
Directed and managed a team of 40 scientists, engineers, analysts and researchers.
Business Development - initiated, developed and directed critical collaborative contracts."
Note, that this BAASS role of Kurth's, matches a Defense Intelligence Agency (DIA) August 2008 solicitation for bids from companies to carry out work on the Advanced Aerospace Weapon System Applications Program (AAWSAP). In 2019, the DIA confirmed that BAASS won this AAWSAP contract. From September 2008, BAASS then advertised for employees to work on this program. No one I am aware of, has any knowledge of why or how, Kurth came to be working at BAASS from December 2007. In fact BAASS LLC was only registered with the State of Nevada in January 2008.
Article: "I was called for an interview to be a Program manager at BAASS and accepted the job. Nobody in Bigelow companies or anyone associated with BAASS knew anything about the Supersonic Tic Tac event until I told them about it. I interviewed some of the witnesses and wrote a report about the event and submitted it. My report started the entire sequence of subsequent reports and investigation into the events."
"I am fairly sure in my hiring interview, Colm Kelleher, who did the interview, did not know about the event."
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NorCal Dave
Senior Member.
We covered it a bit here:
https://www.metabunk.org/threads/the-origins-of-aawsap.12484/
Relevant passages from the book:
External Quote:
Kelleher, Colm A.. Skinwalkers at the Pentagon: An Insiders' Account of the Secret Government UFO Program. RTMA, LLC. Kindle Edition.External Quote:
As noted in other threads, Axelrod is almost certainly Jay Stratton, who went on to lead the UAPTF.
Nemon
Active Member
Kurth even had a job at the Skinwalker Ranch according to Chris Marx, resp. to some reports:
Source: https://nexusnewsfeed.com/article/u...nded-paranormal-research-at-skinwalker-ranch/
Another version:
Source: https://www.blueblurrylines.com/search/label/Skinwalker Ranch
Dave Green
New Member
New poster so forgive me if I'm covering well trodden ground but the Skeptoid articles were the first thing I thought of on reading the topic.
Same people, and their disciples, over and over again purveying the same nonsense. Dunning's article interested me most in that Bigelow and Fugal are looking for confirmation of religious beliefs and can hire genuine scientists like Taylor to promote their evangelism.
LilWabbit
Senior Member
Hi Dave and welcome to MB! Can you tell us more about those religious beliefs and how Bigelow and Fugal were motivated by them (Mormonism?) and went on to look for said confirmation? Some citations would be helpful.
Nemon
Active Member
Of course, there should be verbatim quotes and evidence here. But at least in the case of Brandon Fugal, this issue is plausibly presented in Steven Greenstreet's Skinwalker Ranch documentary. Not least because Steven himself comes from Utah and was socialized as a Mormon, he recognizes the patterns well. To what extent Fugal himself makes clear statements there, I no longer have in mind. Yet I will no longer search for this, because the matter is sufficiently clarified for my personal needs (the last two episodes?)
Nemon
Active Member
Hi Luis, just asking for a friend: Are you working on the update? He says it would be very much appreciated and he has in mind Grusch of course as well as the Mellon-Nolan-Grusch SOL Foundation among other recent stuff
Dave Green
New Member
Long time reader LW, first time I've felt able to post something. Apologies for the delay, life and work has been a little busy.
Anyway the items I referred to are included in https://skeptoid.com/episodes/4787
which also links to the second episode. Dunning's references are included at the end of each.
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Scaramanga
Senior Member
Don't speak too soon. Comet C2023 P1 has just appeared out of nowhere on a hyperbolic orbit. Prepare to meet Noah
Mendel
Senior Member.
Putting this here for reference on Mellon/Stratton/Elizondo
It's in the light of this that we have to consider that Stratton sent Grusch out to find UAP-related SAP and CAPs for UAPTF, and when Grusch didn't find any, he went public with allegations about the programs he wasn't given access to.
They made lots of smoke, but maybe the "fire" is all mirrors.
It's in the light of this that we have to consider that Stratton sent Grusch out to find UAP-related SAP and CAPs for UAPTF, and when Grusch didn't find any, he went public with allegations about the programs he wasn't given access to.
They made lots of smoke, but maybe the "fire" is all mirrors.
Mendel
Senior Member.
The UAP Guide
These two ASA staffers are 2/3 of the "volunteer team with a mission to raise public awareness about UAP to unlock funding for scientific research and political support for disclosure" that created https://www.uap.guide/ , the third team member being Austin Alexander.
The "UAP Guide" is "A curation of authoritative quotes from presidents, intelligence officials, military pilots, politicians, and government reports" intended as "A briefing for congressional staffers, friends, and family." It's "The 15-minute guide to UAP/UFOs you can share at work."
The "Introduction" has selected quotes on "UAP exist", "Real objects", "Moving too fast", "Not new", "Global phenomena", "USG has more data", "USG may have materials". The "Learn" section links to longer material, mostly by the aforementioned people. (I think Grusch might be able to source most of his claims from this.)External Quote:
It's a one-stop-shop for those who "do their own research". As propaganda, it feels eerily effective. Should we debunk this?
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JMartJr
Senior Member.
Possibly, but it is a bit Gish Gallopy to my eye, if we stick to one claim per thread it might turn into a whole forum of its own. Some claims -- "Congressman X said Y," probably should be let alone unless Congressman X never said any such thing, and I hope that will not be the case here. Others are unsupported claims by various witnesses which can't be debunked much beyond pointing out that there is no supporting evidence... again... for the claim. Some bits, such as the references to Roswell or the Navy videos, might be bundled with a link to existing threads on those topics, or to a definitive external debunk where one exists.
They might have been wiser not to include items like:
as it looks silly at this point to (hopefully) most people.External Quote:
Mendel
Senior Member.
Yes, but that's kinda the point: to show how sound bites have been ripped out of context, claims made without support, etc., all in a nice thread. There shouldn't be any one quote that requires a long debunk; these should get their own threads. It judt feels bad to leave this "mis-guide" undebunked.
JMartJr
Senior Member.
I suppose one could make the claim: this report is accurate/factual, or something. It would probably be well to have the basic debunks of the key bits that are readily debunkable in the OP, maybe? Maybe sort the "sub points" inside into "People just expressing opinions" ( to be left largely alone), "witnesses make unsupported claims (to include an explanation of why that is interesting but not useful as evidence) and "recycled old claims already debunked" (Navy vids, Roswell, etc). I think those categories would cover much if not all of what is in there.
NorCal Dave
Senior Member.
We could just start with the "Recommended by" list:
Kean: UFO and post life believer that admitted her reporting was to "move the narrative" about UFOs in the public discourse.
DeLong: Ex-Rocker frontman that has been working with Art's Parts and seems to have created TTSA as a personal money funnel. Still looking for investors though.
Coulthart: Thinks a steel ball that watches TV is possibly alien technology, a likely flashlight in the woods is "the best ever UFO footage", there is a huge, crashed UFO covered by a huge building, the US government "leaked" Grusch's "medical records" to undermine him and of course believes a random Twitter/X/eBay seller has a great uncle that spoke to an alien reverse engineering specialist at Area 51 and a patch proves it.
Elizondo: Head of AATIP, the Pentagon UAP program that was unfunded, never official existed and was more like an after-school UFO club.
Puthoff: Believed Yuri Gehler was really bending spoons with his mind and that he proved other psy phenomenon at the SRI, until others showed that he didn't. A Skinwalker Ranch regular.
The problem as @JMartJr pointed out is that as a Gish Gallop-like document, it gets very convoluted to adhere to our standards without creating a "wall of quote boxes" as deirdre calls some of my posts. Hell, if were honest, what I wrote above violates posting policies. I was going off the top of my head and these descriptions can be sourced, but I was just trying to be quick.
What's interesting is how far will Graves go with the usual suspects? He obviously was hoodwinked into attending the Mexican Congressional Hearings and quickly distanced himself from Maussan et al afterwards. However, many of the more prominent UFO folks have very similar beliefs to Maussan, they're just savvy enough to not drag out cobbled together remains of indigenous peoples. For now.
NorCal Dave
Senior Member.
And even got an airport named after him. Though I still think of it as McCarren International Airport.
As Mendel noted, Reid is gone, AAWSAP was 12-14 years ago now, $22 million is pocket change at the US DoD, Bigelow sold SKR and moved on. The more interesting thing is the legacy that carries on today. SKR is still on TV as a hot spot of wierdshitology. AAWSAP's Jay Stratton went on to run the UAP Task Force, Knapp has hooked up with Corbel to promote any lights in the sky as UFOs and one can even trace whistleblower Grusch back to AAWSAP and SKR.
Ann K
Senior Member.
You may be correct about the financial aspect, but there is another motivation for many of the parties involved: their religion, specifically the Latter Day Saints (Mormons) to which Harry Reid converted as a young adult. It's been reported that the operators and staff at Skinwalker Ranch were all Mormons.
https://www.sltrib.com/religion/2023/09/05/matthew-bowman-why-some-latter-day/External Quote:
One thing skeptics are legit REALLY GOOD at compared to the Believer Community is actually investigating the "UFO Celebrities" and the UFO community at large.
What is the history of the invisible college?
Does NIDS pre-date invis-college?
What is the history of the "Advanced Physics Working Group"?
How has this organization or club evolved over time and how is it structured?
Invisible College & The Aviary Panel Talk (Unidentified Celebrity Review) Link in Description
Source: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7hNWrg66rbE&t=5s
What is the history of the invisible college?
Does NIDS pre-date invis-college?
What is the history of the "Advanced Physics Working Group"?
How has this organization or club evolved over time and how is it structured?
Invisible College & The Aviary Panel Talk (Unidentified Celebrity Review) Link in Description
Source: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7hNWrg66rbE&t=5s
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Scaramanga
Senior Member
I can always spot a sentence that can be shortened to 'we want money'.
Tezcatlipoca
Senior Member.
One important thing to consider with this is that this is not one big large mutual group, there are distinct networks of interaction within it. For example, Elizondo-Stratton-Mellon make up a distinct network from Puthoff-Green-Lackatski. These networks have entirely distinct developmental histories and paths. This ropes into some of the other questions too, like did "NIDS" predate the "Invisible College", yes and no, it depends on which network you look at. Did it predate the Elizondo-Stratton-Mellon network? Most likely. Did it predate the Puthoff-Green-Lackatski network? No, theirs was a thing before the 90s.
NorCal Dave
Senior Member.
I'm sorry Arthur, but I really don't know what you're trying to say here. These questions are followed up by what looks like a header for a Greenstreet story in the NYP but nothing else. A cryptic X post with a bunch of UFOlogists and a link for a 20+ minute.
What are you trying to say? If there is something in the video we're supposed to see, tell us and include a timestamp. Better yet, many YouTube videos have transcriptions that one can copy and paste so we don't have to watch an entire video to get your point.
Be happy to discuss with you, but I'm not sure what we're discussing.
Not necessarily. Elizondo was heavily involved with TTSA as was Mellon. Putoff is one the founders, along with DeLong and Semivan of TTSA. They have their different groups, but there is a lot of overlap and cross pollination.
Many people have used the term "Invisible Collage" to refer to a group of "scientists" that work on UFOs or other esoteric subjects but don't want their name associated with that work or possible to a group of non-existent scientists. Australian UFO researcher Bill Chalker was using the term in the late '90s in reference to some supposed hair/alien DNA samples that he had tested by his "Invisible College".
The Invisible College talked about here is related to Vallee and Putoff and does predate NIDS which was set up in '95 and closed shop in '04.
Putoff and Kit Green, for sure, but Lacatski doesn't seem to get involved until the mid '00s, eventually setting up AASWAP in ~2010.
I want to know what this invisible college is and it's history/membership.
I want to know how many different sub groups there are?
How much influence do they have on what the UFO community's current narrative is?
How are these group/groups structured internally? Are we dealing with a hirarchacical structure like the church of Scientology?
Is there a direct connection to the Church of Scientology and these UFO group/groups?
How do these groups communicate? Secret weekly meetings? Discord/Signal/In Person? Is there a oath of secrecy you take to gain entry?
Who is the Leader of the TTSA effort?
Is there funding being provided to these groups/clubs/networks?
Are these group/groups aligned with any well know power structures such as political parties or cooperate special interests?
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