UAPs, Bigelow, and the "Invisible College"

[Mick West]

Source: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-FuVClipbh4

Article:

Puthoff was the brains behind what the intelligence community referred to as the "remote viewing program," and he worked with an informal group of colleagues on a range of paranormal issues, a team that Vallée termed the "invisible college." Over the next half-century, Puthoff would help to keep interest in UFOs alive inside the government.

In 1995, Project Stargate ended in failure. Government interest in UFOs and the paranormal might have faded away just as surely if not for the interest of a wealthy hotel magnate, Robert Bigelow, who had spent a lifetime obsessed with the paranormal and became a patron of UFO conspiracy theorists. Bigelow went into business with Area 51 conspiracy nut Bob Lazar, and he funded the research of dubious alien abduction investigators Bud Hopkins and John Mack.

"Invisible College" members moved through a series of paranormal initiatives and organizations in the 1990s, culminating in Bigelow's National Institute for Discovery Science, a private organization in which several members studied UFOs and the paranormal between 1995 and 2004. Vallée sat on its board. NIDS primarily researched—and failed to prove—the supposed paranormal mysteries of a patch of desert in Utah called Skinwalker Ranch. Puthoff and the NIDS team believed it to be a supernatural gateway to the space ghost dimension. (The ranch is now the set of a paranormal reality TV program.) Remarkably, they managed to convince a visiting Defense Intelligence Agency scientist, and the DIA partnered with Bigelow to investigate space ghosts.

Source: https://newrepublic.com/article/162457/government-embrace-ufos-bad-science

I'm opening this thread to a broader discussion than normal to look into the concept that a relatively small number of people, with varying degrees of belief in the supernatural, specifically Jacque Vallée, Hal Puthoff, Robert Bigelow, George Knapp, and others have provided much of the driving force behind the current UAP flap.

I recommend reading Colavito's article, and/or watching my interview with him before proceeding.

At the center of this web, we really keep coming back to Bigelow. It's quite hard to find any aspect of the story that is not connected by one or two hops to him. Bigelow owned Skinwalker. Bigelow got the contract for AATIP from Harry Reid who was introduced to UFOlogy by George Knapp. Bigelow's paranormal investigation arm NIDS became the single UFO reporting site for the FAA before 2002. Leslie Kean (one writer on NYT's first AATIP story) is now on a panel of Judges with Hal Puthoff, for Bigelow's Institute of Consciousness studies. Vallée (whose involvement goes back to the 1960s) has most recently been studying "metamaterials" for Bigelow and TTSA, as reported on by George Knapp.

Of course, not all connections are necessarily meaningful. But I think there's something fairly significant here - that a relatively small number of people with supernatural beliefs are having a disproportionate effect on the national narrative surrounding UFOs, and ultimately influencing the actions of politicians.

 

[Alphadunk]

All modern ufology roads lead back to Bigelow and/or Puthoff! This is something that has been discussed a great deal on the AboveTopSecret forums with a lot of very detailed research going into how all of these personal connections were formed and how they've evolved over time. I don't think there is any question this small group of true believers has largely driven the government's interest in UAP, among other fringe topics, over the last twenty years.

Prior to 2001, people like Puthoff and Eric Davis were still players in the field but there was also another group led by Steven Greer also pushing the narrative forward. Since 2001 Greer has gotten pretty out there and largely ostracized himself from the rest of ufological circles. That said, it's hard to discount his importance in getting us to where we are today. His work with Edgar Mitchell in meeting with officials definitely played a role in this and shouldn't be ignored.

Regardless of anything else I think it's worth remembering that isn't just a "nothing there" flap as people here often imply. There is very obviously something going on that needs to be investigated and rectified. If we have pilots continuously misusing systems or misinterpreting sensor data then that's a big problem, same for radar operators. If our systems are being legitimately fooled by prosaic objects like birds, balloons, or reflections then that's a big problem. If we have unknown entities in American airspace, be it foreign drone, radar reflector balloons, or alien spaceships... that's a big problem. So while it's easy to laugh off people like Bigelow with his fanciful supernatural ideas I think the man deserves credit in having a role in bringing this stuff to the attention of the public.

 

[Mick West]

This is something that has been discussed a great deal on the AboveTopSecret forums

Yeah, there's a vast amount of material on ATS. Here's one of the key threads:

Article:

One thing that has now become apparent is that the United States 'Department of Defense', MUFON and 'Bigelow Aerospace Advanced Space Studies' were all intrinsically linked in an 'Advanced Aviaton Threat Identification Program' (AATIP) to study Unidentified Aviation Phenomena between 2007 and 2012 (maybe longer?). Five years down the road we now have a 'To the Stars Academy' with the former director of that program, Luis Elizondo, involved and a punk rock singer, Tom DeLonge heading it all up.

How did a self made billionaire, MUFON, and a member of Blink182 all become entwined with the machinations of the DoD?

This post will attempt to cover the historical background to these interesting recent developments.

Source: https://www.abovetopsecret.com/forum/thread1195773/pg1

And lots of others in the Aliens and UFOs sub-forum.

Aside: ATS is interesting as there's often lot of very good skeptical research done there, but it's generally overlooked as ATS has the reputation (and the look) of a conspiracy theory site. But I think a lot of the people posting there have been there for many years, and have grown out of their earlier credulity, and into much more rigorous evidence-based viewpoints. But of course, there a mix.

 

[LorentzHall]

All modern ufology roads lead back to Bigelow and/or Puthoff!

All American ufology.

There are mostly separate ufology cultures in Russia & China. The UK also had its own separate ufology wave in the 80's & 90's.

Funny fact: a popular conspiracy/hypothesis in China is that US experimental aircraft are the source of theirs.

 

[Alphadunk]

I wonder if anyone has taken a deep dive into the religious connections between the Invisible College members and whether it has had any bearing or influence on their mission. Puthoff, famously an ex-Scientologist, left the church just as Operation Snow White started. There is no evidence he's still covertly a believer in Scientology but the religion certainly hosts a wide array of fringe and bizarre beliefs.

 

[Sgt.Squarehead]

ATS is interesting as there's often lot of very good skeptical research done there, but it's generally overlooked as ATS has the reputation (and the look) of a conspiracy theory site.

Got my skeptical' start busting fake 'Vril Saucers' over there...But other issues put me off the place very quickly.

As I've said before, the whole field of 'Modern UFOlogy' is starting to look distinctly spooky to me...Hence why it's become such a freak show, there's no intent to enlighten the public, the very opposite IMHO (and a few individuals concerned can make a buck while they are at it).

 

[LilWabbit]

An excellent interview.

Most people (even the likes of Eric Weinstein) mistake the current UAP ruckus for an essentially scientific or a military dilemma that has come to light owing to recent leaks. While there may be some intelligence concerns, the resurgent "flap" is primarily just another example of the inherent vulnerability of democratic governments to the influence of able political lobbies consisting of relatively few leading individuals with sympathizers both within and without.

It's an essentially sociological and politological dilemma. Where the UFO "college" has lacked scientific competence and credibility, they have excelled at organized public outreach, fundraising and politics.

 

[Jayne Miller]

An excellent interview.

Most people (even the likes of Eric Weinstein) mistake the current UAP ruckus for an essentially scientific or a military dilemma that has come to light owing to recent leaks. While there may be some intelligence concerns, the resurgent "flap" is primarily just another example of the inherent vulnerability of democratic governments to the influence of able political lobbies consisting of relatively few leading individuals with sympathizers both within and without.

It's an essentially sociological and politological dilemma. Where the UFO "college" has lacked scientific competence and credibility, they have excelled at organized public outreach, fundraising and politics.

It was a fascinating interview.

I've got a personal bingo card going for who will be next onto this bandwagon from the "Intellectual Dark Web' to the "Invisible College".
I'm not sure if there is much evidence at all that this band of folks could even be called a lobby. Are the government acting in any way they wouldn't without their presence, I'm not convinced tbh.
I'm British though, so forgive any misunderstanding of your system.

 

[Agent K]

Remarkably, they managed to convince a visiting Defense Intelligence Agency scientist, and the DIA partnered with Bigelow to investigate space ghosts.

The men who stare at ghosts.

 

[SkepticSteve]

I wonder if anyone has taken a deep dive into the religious connections between the Invisible College members and whether it has had any bearing or influence on their mission. Puthoff, famously an ex-Scientologist, left the church just as Operation Snow White started. There is no evidence he's still covertly a believer in Scientology but the religion certainly hosts a wide array of fringe and bizarre beliefs.

Meh, they have to be more likely viewed through the lense of being schizoid personalities. Science, religion and fringe beliefs attract and actively recruit people from this type of spectrum. So it is not unnatural that they can go hand in hand.

 

[Jayne Miller]

If I'm reading mentions of Puthoff on this ex-sci site right, it seems Puthoff took his own beliefs into Sci rather than the other way round. ( Put his name into the search bar ).
One post that references a "mental link" to a UFO when he seems to have been at the celebrity centre ... https://forum.exscn.net/threads/do-...e-old-celebrity-center-days.24460/post-607402
Another post mentioning a possible link to RV within sci in the past https://forum.exscn.net/threads/scientology-the-cia-and-mind-control.8800/post-177219

If Elizondo is correct and people were "puthoff" ( I'll get my coat ) the UFO subject because they are demons, it doesn't seem unreasonable to assume how easily Bigelow could shoe himself into similar circles.

 

[LilWabbit]

It was a fascinating interview.

I've got a personal bingo card going for who will be next onto this bandwagon from the "Intellectual Dark Web' to the "Invisible College".
I'm not sure if there is much evidence at all that this band of folks could even be called a lobby. Are the government acting in any way they wouldn't without their presence, I'm not convinced tbh.
I'm British though, so forgive any misunderstanding of your system.

"Lobby" as in any cooperation of individuals or private interest groups attempting to influence the decisions of government. Doesn't imply a sinister conspiracy.

The Bigelow/Reid/Mellon/Elizondo connection and the whole creation of the AATIP and its successor is an evidenciary case in point.

 

[Jayne Miller]

"Lobby" as in any cooperation of individuals or private interest groups attempting to influence the decisions of government. Doesn't imply a sinister conspiracy.

The Bigelow/Reid/Mellon/Elizondo connection and the whole creation of the AATIP and its successor is an evidenciary case in point.

Is it though ? Would Elizondo have got the job if he had been the Elizondo we have now ? Seems like the new appointee is completely focused on terrestrial adversaries. I don't see any success really outside the ufotwitter and a few poorly informed gov folks.

Surely there are plenty of "contractors" who display equally poor value for money, but are just not "spooky" ? If this upcoming report isn't just about human adversaries, ok, but ...
Caveat: I assume gov incompetence over legit motive a lot having worked for them.

 

[LilWabbit]

Is it though ? Would Elizondo have got the job if he had been the Elizondo we have now ? Seems like the new appointee is completely focused on terrestrial adversaries. I don't see any success really outside the ufotwitter and a few poorly informed gov folks.

Surely there are plenty of "contractors" who display equally poor value for money, but are just not "spooky" ? If this upcoming report isn't just about human adversaries, ok, but ...
Caveat: I assume gov incompetence over legit motive a lot having worked for them.

Elizondo was influenced by Mellon and later was chosen with Reid's influence to head the AATIP. The current replacement seems a correctional move after the Pentagon got rid of ...oops, I mean... after Elizondo "resigned" in frustration of not being taken seriously in his own words. This implies the level-headedness of rank-and-file Pentagon chain of command.

"Lobbies" are a nuisance and a distraction for professional government in democracies but not a catastrophic cause of national paralysis. And their influence is resurgent, not a physical constant. They are systemic to representative democracies, for good or for ill.

 

[jackfrostvc]

I believe there was a guy between Elizondo and Brennan. Someone who quit I think after a short time as UAPTF director.
And just re-confirm, I don't mean Elizondo

 

[Alphadunk]

Do we know who ran the program before Elizondo took over? IIRC he wasn't initially brought on as the director but I can't recall anyone ever putting a name to his predecessor(s).

 

[LilWabbit]

Do we know who ran the program before Elizondo took over? IIRC he wasn't initially brought on as the director but I can't recall anyone ever putting a name to his predecessor(s).

I can't recall either. There's an obscure reference to "a senior official at the Defense Intelligence Agency" in the The New Yorker 10 May 2021 article who could potentially be Elizondo's predecessor. According to the article, this Pentagon official had visited Bigelow's Skinwalker Ranch in 2007 and seen a ghost:

In 2007, Bigelow received a letter from a senior official at the Defense Intelligence Agency who was curious about Skinwalker. Bigelow connected him to an old friend from the Nevada desert, Senator Harry Reid, who was then the Senate Majority Leader, and the two men met to discuss their common interest in U.F.O.s. The D.I.A. official later visited Skinwalker, where, from a double-wide observation trailer on site, he is said to have had a spectral encounter; as one Bigelow affiliate described it, he saw a "topological figure" that "appeared in mid-air" and "went from pretzel-shaped to Möbius-strip-shaped."

Whoever this person may be, he's evidently an alien-sympathetic Pentagon insider in cahoots with Reid and Bigelow, who together effectively formed a nascent political lobby in 2007 to create the AATIP.

 

[jackfrostvc]

Do we know who ran the program before Elizondo took over? IIRC he wasn't initially brought on as the director but I can't recall anyone ever putting a name to his predecessor(s).

According to the source below , Dr. James T. Lacatski was the AATIP director before Elizondo. He was also lead of AAWSAP
http://parabunk.blogspot.com/2018/06/aatipaawsap-tale-of-two-programs.html
https://reyderr.blogspot.com/2020/01/dr-james-t-lacatski-aawsap-program.html

 

[LilWabbit]

According to the source below , Dr. James T. Lacatski was the AATIP director before Elizondo. He was also lead of AAWSAP
http://parabunk.blogspot.com/2018/06/aatipaawsap-tale-of-two-programs.html
https://reyderr.blogspot.com/2020/01/dr-james-t-lacatski-aawsap-program.html

View attachment 45556

Thanks for the name! From the same link you provided:

"All that seems to make it very probable the "guy from DIA" who got the ball rolling with Bigelow and Reid in the first place was Lacatski, and if he was so interested about it all, it makes sense that he was also leading the program."

 

[Alphadunk]

Wow, some pretty wild info about Lacatski. If this is to believed, he was ostracized for similar reasons as Elizondo. From Elizondo himself:

In fact, my AATIP predecessor's career was ruined because of misplaced fear by an elite few. Rather than accept the data as provided by a top-rank rocket scientist, they decided the data was a threat to their belief system and instead, destroyed his career because of it."

Source: https://ufos-scientificresearch.blogspot.com/2018/11/dr-james-t-lacatski-aawsap-program.html

Just for funsies, here's a photo of Lue with Puthoff and Davis. Those two seem to always have their toes dipped in this topic don't they?

 

[jimmyslippin]

All modern ufology roads lead back to Bigelow and/or Puthoff!

It sure does.

I was just looking into some claim that the CIA had authenticated the 1995 alien autopsy as being real, and what is at the foundation of that claim? A 2001 memo written by a NIDS researcher and sent to Robert Bigelow, about the supposed findings of CIA employee Kit Green.

Not too happy about having to link to The Sun, but they do have photos of two pages of the apparently eleven page memo. I wonder if the full memo exists anywhere? (https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/93822...-video-real-cia-scientist-pentagon-briefing/#)

Of course producer Ray Santilli later admitted in 2006 that the alien autopsy video was actually filmed in the 90s and was supposedly a recreation of a real film that had since deteriorated, and in 2017 director Spyros Melaris admitted the whole thing was a hoax.

 

[Mick West]

Some very detailed dot-connecting from Roger Glassel and Curt Collins. Long articles, excerpt below:

https://www.blueblurrylines.com/2020/03/the-pentagon-ufo-programs-secret-partner.html

Aerospace developer and billionaire Robert Bigelow has an extensive history of interest in the UFO topic, but this story really begins with his creation of the National Institute for Discovery Science (NIDS) in 1995. Like Bigelow Aerospace, NIDS was located in Las Vegas, Nevada, and was described on their (now defunct) website as "a privately funded science institute engaged in research of aerial phenomena, animal mutilations, and other related anomalous phenomena." Their all-star science advisory board included; Colm A. Kelleher, (Administrator), Harold E. Puthoff (Chairman of the Board), John B. Alexander, Jacques Vallee, and John F. Schuessler.

In 1996 Robert Bigelow purchased the Skinwalker Ranch in Utah to have the organization study its alleged unearthly events. TV journalist George Knapp worked closely with Bigelow's organization, and "maintained a working relationship with NIDS since its inception and had earned the trust of principal figures in the organization. [Bigelow] shared, on a confidential basis, incident reports and a comprehensive chronology of [Skinwalker Ranch] incidents… In late 2002, Knapp received permission from NIDS to write an account of the ranch activities…" Several of the NIDS studies of paranormal research were represented by papers on their site in categories: Anomalous Aerial Phenomena, Animal Pathology Research, Astrobiology/SETI, and Consciousness Studies.

https://www.blueblurrylines.com/2020/03/breaking-silence-aatips-secret-partner.html

 

[jackfrostvc]

As I said below, Knapp, Reid and Bigelow have a ~ 30 year relationship
It was Knapp that got Reid looking into UFO's. It was Knapp that introduced Reid to Bigelow
It starts at least as far back as 1989. From an article I read when investigating Bob Lazar, Knapp got Reid into UFOs when Reid met Knapp to find out what was happening after people kept asking him about all the UFO stories that followed from Lazar.
Knapp also met Bigelow around that time 1989-1990 when Bigelow came snooping to find the low down on Bob Lazar. That was through Knapp
Bigelow even started a company with Lazar called Zeta Reticuli 2 which was canned shortly after, when Bigelow found Lazar was storing furniture there instead of doing research

Reid also agreed to provide Knapp with UFO info as part of their friendship.
Knapp also worked for NIDS from the late 90's to early 2000's

See my previous post about all this here:
https://www.metabunk.org/threads/fa...to-baass-bigelow-and-nuforc.11827/post-252014

 

[galerkin]

I read the article by Jason and I am watching the interview as I write this, but I am surprised that noone is considering the spook aspect of this whole UFO scene, when it is obvious that we are dealing with a naive crowd that is however managed by cunning government operators. If I am not mistaken, Elizondo himself is an intelligence officer. Anyone remember Richard Dotty? More recently, Mick, in his research on the tic-tac UAV, highlighted the fact that the video file was named "GIMBAL", which is a clear indication that the navy had already arrived in similar conclusions. Why release it as an UFO sensation then?

 

[Jayne Miller]

I read the article by Jason and I am watching the interview as I write this, but I am surprised that noone is considering the spook aspect of this whole UFO scene, when it is obvious that we are dealing with a naive crowd that is however managed by cunning government operators. If I am not mistaken, Elizondo himself is an intelligence officer. Anyone remember Richard Dotty? More recently, Mick, in his research on the tic-tac UAV, highlighted the fact that the video file was named "GIMBAL", which is a clear indication that the navy had already arrived in similar conclusions. Why release it as an UFO sensation then?

Mellon tweeted about Doty recently.

Source: https://twitter.com/ChrisKMellon/status/1405369518818480129

Lue also stated in a recent video he had never met Doty, which I assume is true.

If one was into spook theory you could look at how often they slate someone who most would assume is Greer ( disproportionately even if understandably ) who still has some supporters.
One might query the hiring of Greers associate.
The stand against skepticism also seems disproportionate and could be seen as deliberately encouraging division, it could also simply be seen as a result of "offence culture" which exists on SM, which is a useful tool for anyone, sadly.
It's very odd to me given skeptics I've seen seem to be quite rational and not (woe) "hateful".
(After only a few days back on twitter I seem to have been vigorously muted myself for skeptical posts questioning some prominent folk.)
One might also question the statement from Lue in the WP last night which is less than sturdy factswise than one would expect from someone who vowed to tell the truth and who is an intelligence professional.

Then there's this`: Edited to include image with quite eyebrow raising info:

This is my opinion only obviously after following the ufo topic for decades ( with a break for ten years ). I hope it's alright to offer it up within the open discussion on this thread.

 

[Jayne Miller]

Interesting slip. Ooops.

Christopher Mellon on twitter: "A possible new all time low in UAP coverage was just achieved by Jake Mann in Wired. Among other things he fails to understand the report had no connection whatsoever to AATIP and did not require a penny of appropriation. There should be an immediate retraction or correction."

(now deleted)
Source: https://twitter.com/ChrisKMellon/status/1409498406272311300?s=20



Jake Mann is one of the founders of SkyFort, Adam Mann is the guy at Wired.

Retraction tweet ( now deleted ).

Source: https://twitter.com/ChrisKMellon/status/1409501449009106946?s=20

 

[NorCal Dave]

Regardless of anything else I think it's worth remembering that isn't just a "nothing there" flap as people here often imply. There is very obviously something going on that needs to be investigated and rectified. If we have pilots continuously misusing systems or misinterpreting sensor data then that's a big problem, same for radar operators. If our systems are being legitimately fooled by prosaic objects like birds, balloons, or reflections then that's a big problem. If we have unknown entities in American airspace, be it foreign drone, radar reflector balloons, or alien spaceships... that's a big problem. So while it's easy to laugh off people like Bigelow with his fanciful supernatural ideas I think the man deserves credit in having a role in bringing this stuff to the attention of the public.

Is there something going on? I'm in no way questioning your concerns, but I find all of this has a nagging Bermuda Triangle feel to it.

Vallee and Puthoff have been looking into this stuff since the '70s. Bigelow has been dumping millions of his, and later, tax payer dollars into it since the '90s. DeLong has been at it for almost 10 years now. Throw in Elizondo and Knape and Mann. What do they have to show for all this? What's their proof of UFO/ETs?

Three anomalous videos.

In the case of Gimbal and GoFast there is still no context right? Giving the amount of military flights going on right now and on a daily basis over the past 20-30 years, this is all they have?

I don't think it's a stretch, that with all the flying going on with all the systems in use, that a few times some pilots see something strange or get an unusual contact of some kind. And, yes, sometimes make mistakes.

Their connections to government and the media allow them to turn 3 videos and the testimony of 2 pilots and/or a WSO recalling stuff from 20 years ago, to infer that this kind of stuff is happening all the time and the government knows about it.

Their MO, is to make it look like a security threat and get everybody worked up, when in fact, they're much more into esoterica, occult and the paranormal. Talking about Space Ghost with Joe Rogan, doesn't have the same cachet as Security Threats.

Again, in no way being disrespectful of your point of view. I'm thinking your including the drone stories in with your concerns, and that does change it somewhat, but I think we should be wary of what this group of people is saying and pushing, and what they actually believe.

 

[Alphadunk]

Again, in no way being disrespectful of your point of view. I'm thinking your including the drone stories in with your concerns, and that does change it somewhat, but I think we should be wary of what this group of people is saying and pushing, and what they actually believe.

I was indeed including everything together. Obviously these guys started looking into this stuff, originally, because they thought it would lead to the discovery or acknowledgement of some sort of unknown phenomenon... namely aliens or extra-dimensional entities. My point is, regardless of that, something really is going on. At this point I don't think we can really argue otherwise, given the memo from Friday. From my point of view it doesn't matter if it's just plastic bags in the wind or pilots making mistakes. That's still a problem that needs to be solved or better understood.

 

[JMartJr]

Obviously these guys started looking into this stuff, originally, because they thought it would lead to the discovery or acknowledgement of some sort of unknown phenomenon... namely aliens or extra-dimensional entities.

Without speculating about them myself, I'm not sure they're motives are that clearly known.

 

[Sgt.Squarehead]

$$$$$ motivates much...How much have these guys raked in by now? Any estimates?

 

[jackfrostvc]

If you want to know how much money fringe celebs can make. Look at URI Geller, famous for bending a spoon.
In 2015 he sold his house for 14 million pounds ~ $20Mill

Not bad for bending a spoon

https://variety.com/2015/dirt/real-estalker/uri-geller-selling-sonning-on-thames-estate-1201645005/
https://www.thisismoney.co.uk/money...t-mind-bending-2m-house-spoon-collection.html

Uri says he was getting paid $70K a night In 1978
think about that, just how much money that is, and in 1978

Uri says he

 

[NorCal Dave]

I was indeed including everything together.

I think that's what we need to be careful of. The UFOlogests, Elizondo, DeLong and the rest want us to group lots of disparate anomalous situations together to create a whole that may not exist.

I think that as skeptics we're always on the back foot to begin with and going along with UGOlogests' assertions just gives more credence to there claims.

Example: I think there is tendency to view or group "Tic-Tack" and something like the USS Kidd drone swarm incident together. It's the Navy encountering multiple unexplained encounters off the coast of So Cal. Something' going on out there. But, I would contend, these are totally separate incidents. There is nearly a 15 year gap between the two, and if we are to take Favors account as accurate, the Tic-Tack in no way resembles or acts like a drone or swarm of drones. Favor saw some sort of anomaly in '04. Some 14-15 years later, some sailors may have seen a bunch of drones. Connected? Part of an over arching pattern of UFO incursions? Or just two random anomalous events that might be expected to occur in a 15 year period giving the vast amount of military and civilian air and sea traffic in that small area of the world.

I am not in any way being dismissive of the Tic-Tack or Kidd incidents. They have been thoroughly studied here on the forum as they should be. And I genuinely respect your many takes here on the forum. I'm just leery of connections that may not exist.

 

[JetPac]

With regard to Mick's opening to this thread "But I think there's something fairly significant here - that a relatively small number of people with supernatural beliefs are having a disproportionate effect on the national narrative surrounding UFOs, and ultimately influencing the actions of politicians."
I was listening to an interesting discussion about this on the Planetary Society's website broadcast yesterday and thought this might be of interest. This involved Sarah Scoles , Science Journalist and Casey Dreier from the Planetary Society.

A brief clip from the discussion but I think the complete broadcast is well worth a listen-
Sarah Scoles: "So, I think when you have a small group of people pushing for the same thing, in this case UAP investigation or what some in the UFO sphere might call disclosure from the government about what it really knows, but it's just a few people and their backgrounds are either disputed or undeniably associated with aliens driving spaceships. That obscures how large a thing we're talking about, how common are UAP sightings among military members or otherwise, how big a problem do they represent, and also how much interest is there actually within congress or other parts of the political sphere because when it's just a few people, they can appear very loud and get a lot done, and it can still be just like three guys in a backroom. I think that that is important to understand."
Casey Dreier: "Harry Reid is convinced that there's aliens. Robert Bigelow is convinced there is aliens behind these things. Even one of the authors of that New York Times article, what was her name? Leslie Kean was also convinced previously that there's aliens. So, these aren't just open inquiry from open-minded people. These are people really pushing an agenda that they got then into, it seems to me, a broader public discussion that lacked that context, that they had this agenda, that they had already decided what these were, then pushing these stories out in this like, "Well, we're just asking questions," kind of a situation"

https://www.planetary.org/planetary-radio/0702-2021-spe-sarah-scoles-pentagon-ufo-report

 

[Tomer]

Individuals with similar interests and goals group together to achieve their goals...if that's the conspiracy then yep I think we can take it for a given. Doesn't explain why you've got folks like John Ratcliffe, John Brennan and heck even Obama speaking out on this, you've also got China briefing on it for the first time, whether that's for their own geopolitical goals is anyone's guess but...I don't think we can wrap this all up in a neat tidy bow.

 

[JMartJr]

Individuals with similar interests and goals group together to achieve their goals...if that's the conspiracy then yep I think we can take it for a given. Doesn't explain why you've got folks like John Ratcliffe, John Brennan and heck even Obama speaking out on this, you've also got China briefing on it for the first time, whether that's for their own geopolitical goals is anyone's guess but...I don't think we can wrap this all up in a neat tidy bow.

The worrisome aspect is not people banding together to acheive shared goals. It is the part where they hide what those goals are, use evidence that at least some of them must know is fraudulent to support their efforts, and reveal information to our adversaries to the detriment of military preparedness while wasting taxpayer dollars in the process -- that's what I object to. If they want to say "We believe space aliens are flying around and require a military response," or "We believe space ghosts and werewolves are opening portals from other dimensions at a ranch out west, and we think the Pentagon should devote resources to that, who's with us?"-- fair enough. Say that honestly, and we can debate whether it is a good idea.

 

[Tomer]

The worrisome aspect is not people banding together to acheive shared goals. It is the part where they hide what those goals are, use evidence that at least some of them must know is fraudulent to support their efforts, and reveal information to our adversaries to the detriment of military preparedness while wasting taxpayer dollars in the process -- that's what I object to. If they want to say "We believe space aliens are flying around and require a military response," or "We believe space ghosts and werewolves are opening portals from other dimensions at a ranch out west, and we think the Pentagon should devote resources to that, who's with us?"-- fair enough. Say that honestly, and we can debate whether it is a good idea.

I would have to disagree, I think it's important to have an investigation into UAP, and I think it would be better if those lobbying for such an investigation keep their personal opinions and hypothesis out of it. As for hiding the goals, I think it's pretty telling that we know fairly extensively what their opinions on the subject are..

 

[Alphadunk]

The worrisome aspect is not people banding together to acheive shared goals. It is the part where they hide what those goals are, use evidence that at least some of them must know is fraudulent to support their efforts, and reveal information to our adversaries to the detriment of military preparedness while wasting taxpayer dollars in the process -- that's what I object to. If they want to say "We believe space aliens are flying around and require a military response," or "We believe space ghosts and werewolves are opening portals from other dimensions at a ranch out west, and we think the Pentagon should devote resources to that, who's with us?"-- fair enough. Say that honestly, and we can debate whether it is a good idea.

That seems largely irrelevant to me. If I come up to you and say 'I think there's a dangerous werewolf in my garage! Can you check it out?' and then you go have a look and discover, not a werewolf, but a knife wielding murderer my concern was still very much warranted. It doesn't matter that I thought something extraordinary was in my garage, something was still there worthy of investigation.

People here seem to bristle at the thought of anything supernatural but it doesn't really matter. The investigations by the Navy have clearly shown there are gaps in our operational awareness within our very own training ranges. Imagine if those gaps also were to play a role in military theaters, it's worth learning more.

 

[JMartJr]

That seems largely irrelevant to me. If I come up to you and say 'I think there's a dangerous werewolf in my garage! Can you check it out?' and then you go have a look and discover, not a werewolf, but a knife wielding murderer my concern was still very much warranted. It doesn't matter that I thought something extraordinary was in my garage, something was still there worthy of investigation.

But if you tricked me out of money "to build a werewolf trap because werewolves are a threat to our neighborhood security" when there was no compelling reason to believe in werewolves, nor anything else, was lurking in the garage, I'd be miffed.

People here seem to bristle at the thought of anything supernatural but it doesn't really matter.

Well, it IS a debunking site.

The investigations by the Navy have clearly shown there are gaps in our operational awareness within our very own training ranges. Imagine if those gaps also were to play a role in military theaters, it's worth learning more.

I acknowledge your belief that the leaks from the Navy clearly show something that I do not yet see clearly shown. I don't yet see any evidence of anything that is a threat to US military operations other than the Navy having a problem with leaks (not in the hull, in the information!)

And to be explicit, I have no question at all about your integrity and honesty. My beef in that area is with people who look to me like conmen, highjacking our military for fun and profit.

Peace out, I'm off to celebrate the 4th and throw enough burning exploding stuff into the sky that, if there ARE any UFOs on the prowl tonight, they best detour around Mooresville, NC!

 

[Alphadunk]

The rift between Greer and the Vegas UFO conglomerate has been well known for awhile but he doesn't pull any punches in his latest documentary. Greer is easy to write off nowadays with his cult leader like persona and pool of weirdly passionate supporters (seriously, join his Discord sometime, it's nuts!) but anyone who has been following this topic for a long time knows he was pretty big deal in the late 90's and early 2000's. He was basically "the guy" in terms of getting government types to talk about UFOs.


Source: https://www.reddit.com/r/UFOs/comments/oe5b44/bold_claims_made_by_steven_greer_in_his_new_movie/

 

[jackfrostvc]

I just find it funny that people think the gov is hiding knowledge of aliens , and everyone wants disclosure from the gov

If aliens were here and had been for centuries, then it stands to reason the aliens are not wanting to disclose themselves. Nothing to do with the gov. If aliens wanted you to know, you'd know. Nothing the gov could do about it