The Telepathy Tapes

[Giddierone]

the image generator they use is on the mom's ipad.

This is curious because in episode 1 [around 25:00] Ky Dickens makes a big show of making sure she buys and brings all the testing materials, saying "I don't want Dr. Powell to bring the stuff, I don't want the families to bring the stuff" and for Mia's test she says "...we provided the iPad, in this room I downloaded the number generator..."

Seems odd that they don't apply the same consistency of method across all test subjects.

 

[Gaspa]

I still feel like the podcast is not full of liars

And no one here is claiming that it is.

 

[Giddierone]

Watch the video of Akhil spelling JMRAQ.
His mother is constantly talking she repeats the phrase "hit it" and "and then". I think it's quite subtle but she appears to add an additional sound after her words which just happens to be the next letter Akhil types.

They begin with J (a home key on a keyboard).

You can see her mouth shape for "M" here as she says "hit it, hit it-m." [11:52].

You hear a similar thing before Akhil types the R. She looks at the assistants laptop then says "and then-r" [11:56].
Then again at [12:10] she says "and then-a" and Akhil also says "A!" almost as if he'd heard her say "A".
To my ear there's a definite difference in how she says "and then.." before the R and before the A are typed.
(EDIT: I've attached two isolated audio clips where you can hear the different tone after the "and then" - what do people think?)

Then before Akhil types an incorrect 2 she taps him on the shoulder twice [12:16].

Then after he deletes it appears she's indicating for him to move down on the keyboard, she says "hit it" and points and makes a distinct movement with her hand—the correct letter is Q on the row below.

This really is all really dubious. Why is she talking at all? Why is she even visible to Akhil?

 

[FatPhil]

From your quote:

+The only problem with these remarkably successful tests was that the boy's mother wanted to see the next card before she said "right" or "no" in response to the guess for the previous card. This left open the remote possibility that she was somehow passing information by an unconscious code in the intonation with which she spoke these words.

That's an enormous red flag for me, hidden in a footnote, because I see no conceivable reason for that demand EXCEPT "cheating", whether or not the researchers could determine the method. Certainly any kind of "ESP" should not need that viewing before she answered for the previous card.

Here to sign up for team "enormous red flag". If the mother can't justify its need[*], that should be thown out. It clearly is a side channel. Also - why does she even need to "answer" for the previous card anyway?

The amount of information she needs to leak in order to boost the success from 1/10 to 1/3, say, is just 1.7 bits. Anything that can convey high/medium/low is basically enough, that could be tone, intonation, gaze.

[* nothing would justify its need, I just wanna know what nonsense would be said!]

 

[Ann K]

So telepathy via identified physical means seems unlikely, but like the stone tape theory for ghosts it still has some supporters, perhaps because it sounds sciencey.

That's the same thing that discredits the "remote viewing" concept; there's no postulated method that passes the "smell test". It may some day be possible to read another's thoughts, at least to some extent, through electrodes on the scalp. But transmission over a distance breaks the known laws of physics, and it's hard to get past that brute fact.

 

[Gaspa]

I have worn glasses...and it is entirely possible to see reflection of things behind in them. I mean, just look at this. The lady is standing behind and the number ( which is displayed on both sides of the card ) would clearly be visible in that reflection. This is about as bad a protocol as it gets when it comes to eliminating subtle cues. It would never ever pass proper scientific scrutiny.....

I don't think we need to speculate about him seeing reflections, here. Really. The mom sees it directly and they're using RPM (which is a variation of FC). We can see her moving the stencil thing around in front of him. We have evidence that in this "facilitator holding a card in front of the non-verbal person" situation, it's the facilitator who is choosing the letters.

 

[FatPhil]

There's more examples of this in the (even more saccharine than The Telepathy Tapes) film Spellers.
Source: https://youtu.be/8h1rcLyznK0?si=fWzPc6Jk8mpFu706

Which is given an critical review by Katherine Beals, that questions who is controlling the communication when hand-held letter boards are used.
https://www.facilitatedcommunicatio...ers-a-documercial-for-spelling-to-communicate

I skipped through that at high speed, pausing for the FC seshes, until I could take it no more.
Sesh 1 - the movement of the board made me physically seasick - there's no way even I could hit the letter I wanted with her waving it around like that.
Sesh 2 - kids sitting almost immobile, older guy's doing all the movement, clearly no input from kid.
That's it, I couldn't get any futher.

Note, however, that I spotted gross illogic in Beals' refutation that made me unwilling and unable to continue reading after getting to that point in the review; it was huuuge, quite painful to encounter. But that's meta.

 

[Giddierone]

These audio clips occur directly before Akil types his letter. I think they indicate that no secret mnemonic code is needed if you simply say the letter sound out loud.

 

[Gaspa]

Sesh 1 - the movement of the board made me physically seasick

Not only that. First session, is Aidan, right. 3:55 on the video?

She asks the kid
"What do you think of these new letter boards?"
Pencil moves around a bit, board moves around as well.
As the pencil is pointing to the G
"Go for it"
Kid hits "GQREKAT" she ignores a couple letters and it becomes GREAT

After the G she pulls the board up slightly, which leads him to go to the lower rows. But the initially hits Q.
Q and R are next to each other, and she moves the board slightly to the side after the Q. So he hits the R and immediately the board is moved down and to the left, which leads him back up and to the right. She also says "move your eyes" when the pencil is not high enough but she can't move the board any lower. And he moves the pencil up, hits E. Board immediatelly pulled to the left, but he lowers the pencil after the E.
Once the pencil is in front of the "AFKPU" column, she says again "eyes have to move around" and "what makes sense? (which gives away that she's the one who has a word on her mind, not him)". Even with the "move your eyes" command, he doesn't raise the pencil and hits the K, two rows below the A she wanted.
She takes the board away, asks him to look her in the eyes, places the board in front of him. As the pencil is pointing to the "A" she goes "Uh-huh" so he goes for it.

Whenever things don't make sense, she ignores it, kind of takes the board away to do a reset.
It's really hard to watch.

 

[FatPhil]

It's really hard to watch.

It's abuse. It made my physically angry. Alas IMDB's b0rked, and I couldn't leave a review for the movie. (I wrote one, quite an in-depth one, I just couldn't get any life out of the submit button even with all the jibberscripts turned on.) However, you can guess where my vote went:

 

[tinkertailor]

I don't think we need to speculate about him seeing reflections, here. Really. The mom sees it directly and they're using RPM (which is a variation of FC). We can see her moving the stencil thing around in front of him. We have evidence that in this "facilitator holding a card in front of the non-verbal person" situation, it's the facilitator who is choosing the letters.

Yep, this right here. There was actually a study on FC that covered this. They showed images to the communicator (nonspeakers) and to their facilitator (adult): different images for both. The communicator always spelled out the images that the adult had seen, not that they had seen: https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/24946681/

The thing that frustrates me the most about the Telepathy Tapes is how predictable it all is. In the 90s, when FC was becoming popular in the US, an epidemic of abuse allegations came out of nonspeakers facilitated by facilitators. It ruined families, and it made sense: society was stuck in the bunk of the McMartin Preschool allegations and satanic panic in general. Now, they're projecting psychic beliefs onto these nonspeakers. Makes me unimaginably sad.

 

[analiennamed]

Wild? When you said "I still feel like the podcast is not full of liars" you implied someone is claiming it's full of liars.

I think Akhil's mom or family may be cheating. One person or family. I never said it was "full" of liars and I haven't seen anyone else say that (other than strawman accusations from, for example, the facilitators and Ky Dickens in T-Tapes). I am, once again, pointing out that you're exaggerating.

All the other families profiled, which is all the other people the podcast is "full of", use FC where the child isn't typing independently. FC doesn't involve lying, it involves fooling oneself because of the ideomotor response.

thanks man, im not a full time researcher of this podcast, its a recent interest of mine that i thought i could learn more about from the people here, but sometimes the attitudes of folks like yourself makes it really hard to bring discussions to this forum. i started this thread and you've been pretty engaged - i am not here to debate you. 1 crew person or 2, 1 liar or 2 (it would take more than 1 person to facilitate and overlook akil and his moms cheating) it seems like my general points are still being communicated - but please, correct away.

 

[deirdre]

The thing that frustrates me the most about the Telepathy Tapes is how predictable it all is. In the 90s, when FC was becoming popular in the US, an epidemic of abuse allegations came out of nonspeakers facilitated by facilitators. It ruined families, and it made sense: society was stuck in the bunk of the McMartin Preschool allegations and satanic panic in general. Now, they're projecting psychic beliefs onto these nonspeakers. Makes me unimaginably sad.

actually one bit i clicked on in this thread and heard (dont want to search thread to find the link alien gave us) the mom was relating a similar story. her autistic boy told her her ex husband had abused his sister. the boy with the UNO cards.

 

[Scaramanga]

I don't think we need to speculate about him seeing reflections, here. Really.

A proper test would eliminate it entirely as a possibility. It's quite absurd to have the target material in any way at all visible to even the researchers...let alone potentially visible to the supposed psychic.

In a proper double blind experiment, not even the researchers would know what the target is. But not only do both the researchers present know what the target is....that target is itself not in the slightest bit hidden and is open to reflection from any surface in the room.

This is about as bad psychic testing as it gets. Only the psychic test scene from Ghostbusters is worse.

 

[tinkertailor]

I think it's quite subtle but she appears to add an additional sound after her words which just happens to be the next letter Akhil types.

If I did that in a session with a client, I would have to count it as a gestural and verbal prompt. And I have done those same movements, and I have gotten in trouble by my supervisors for not counting them as support. Anyone can accidentally provide support without realizing it and count it as independent. The difference when you're ethical is that you keep an eye out for it and correct it when you accidentally do it. FC doubles down on it instead.

It's really hard to watch

This is why I haven't seen Spellers or Tell Me You Love Me. If you want some brain bleach I can tell you about my students who communicate independently using devices that I didn't touch at all: I just show them how to use it by speaking with it and they pick up on it.

1 liar or 2 (it would take more than 1 person to facilitate and overlook akil and his moms cheating) it seems like my general points are still being communicated - but please, correct away.

The purpose of Metabunk is to engage in dialog about these kinds of things. Correcting statements is part of the territory. At this point Charlie has done a ton of research into this, she seriously knows her stuff about FC and TT, and she will probably point out some hyperbole here and there. We often point out hyperbole on Metabunk, even among the skeptical members.

Also it would only take Akil's mom, and I don't think she's being intentionally deceptive at all. Many of us keep saying that we believe the facilitators believe the deception; that's how FC works. When teenage girls use a ouija board, they all believe the movements of the board are coming from spirits and none of them are moving the planchette on purpose; that's the ideomotor response. It's how FC works.

 

[JMartJr]

. When teenage girls use a ouija board, they all believe the movements of the board are coming from spirits and none of them are moving the planchette on purpose; that's the ideomotor response. It's how FC works.

That is a very useful comparison, with something within more people's sphere of experience. Thanks.

 

[Mauro]

There is a bit of a catch 22 there no? How do you get support for scientific testing when you're already certain there is no mechanism possible? Seems like you're done before you started

Use your own private funds.

 

[Mauro]

For the love of God, just read the original paper. It'll take you like 10 minutes to go through it and it'll answer many of the things you don't understand. Page 247 might be of particular interest...

A "10 minutes read" for "247 pages"? Oh my.

 

[Edward Current]

Ky Dickens goes to great pains to say that reflective surfaces like TVs and mirrors were covered or removed.

This is just a blatantly transparent attempt to make the demonstration seem all scientific and everything. It's meant to give believers something to latch onto and say "See? These tests were done scientifically" despite their having no idea how an actual rigorous test would be carried out.

 

[NorCal Dave]

and they do another trial - this one is in a paywalled video.

I think this is one of the biggest Red Flags in this whole mess. And as far as a "documentary":

I'm hoping the documentary under production gives us better test circumstances / controls,

I wouldn't get my hopes up. A documentary is a film, not a controlled peer reviewed piece of research. As such, the filmmaker has complete license to create a work that reenforces their particular viewpoint. What's included and not included in the final product is totally up to them. In this case we already know what most of the people involved think and believe.

As for everyone lying or not:

I still feel like the podcast is not full of liars, and it's amazing if these many different people represented on the podcast are all pulling off crazy "parlor tricks", with out coordinating with each other,

Let's consider a few things:

• The history of Psy research has been plagued by fakes, frauds and hucksters involved in the field, think Uri Geller and his spoon bending tricks at SRI with Puthoff and Targ in the '70s.
• Like Puthoff and Targ, who were out of their wheelhouse as laser physicists trying to do social psychology experiments with people like Geller, to prove something they already believed in, so too is someone like Sheldrake who is a biochemist. Yet, he's lending his "expertise" to autistic communication because he believes in Morphic Resonance. Diane Powell is a psychiatrist and proponents of Psy, but has not engaged in any research:

a psychiatrist and author of the 2008 book The ESP Enigma: The Scientific Case for Psychic Phenomena. The biography on her website describes her as "author, public speaker, researcher and practicing psychiatrist" but does not include a curriculum vitae or list of publications. The biography frequently describes her as a researcher, but a Google Scholar search did not turn up any published empirical studies by or coauthored by her.

https://skepticalinquirer.org/exclusive/the-telepathy-tapes-a-dangerous-cornucopia-of-pseudoscience/

• Let's be clear here, they are talking about telepathy, a subset of Psy. They are contending that these non-communicative individuals CAN in fact communicate after receiving thoughts via telepathy or Psy. This show is about Psy. Powell and Sheldrake are proponents of Psy and have been, before stumbling onto Facilitated Communication.
• In essence, filmmaker Ky Dickens has combined the debunked practice of Facilitate Communication with the unproven theory of Psy and combined them into a new thing. Unfortunately, with severely autistic individuals.
• Much of the "evidence" is presented via a podcast, so as you noted lots of anecdotes and descriptions of things we can't see. Some of it is video form and some of that is behind a paywall.
• NOBODY associated with this seems to have any interest in any kind of actual research. A robust set of clinical trials with appropriate controls and peer reviewed results.
• RATHER, they have a #1 podcast, a YouTube channel, an upcoming documentary and a donations page on Spotfund (link below)

As this is about Psy, and Psy research has a long history of fraud, it is entirely appropriate to consider the possibility that one or more of the individuals involved are knowingly perpetrating a fraud. I know that sounds horrible and mean spirited. What parent would use their child for gain? Maybe check out Jenette McCurdy's book, link below.

That is NOT to say that any of the people involved are frauds. But it's important to look past the emotional weight created by focusing on severely autistic individuals and their families and see that this show is really about Psy. A subject with a history of fraud and deceit.

As they choose to present their case in this mixed media format with little to no input from non-psy believing researchers, it leaves the possibility of the presenters being fooled a real concern. And even the possibility that the presenters are engaging in a disingenuous narrative.

We should approach all participants as neutral. Not saying they're any or all are frauds and not saying any or all are saints. It's too convoluted.

McCurdy book:
I'm Glad My Mom Died - Wikipedia

Telepathy tape donations (I'm only including this to show it's real):
https://www.spotfund.com/story/5302...4465984464f?SFID=TheTelepathyTapesDocumentary

 

[Ann K]

We should approach all participants as neutral. Not saying they're any or all are frauds and not saying any or all are saints. It's too convoluted.

Absolutely. But whenever a parent/close companion insists "I have to be there", "He communicates only through me", "We have to do it just this way" or other such claim, that is to me a signal that the companion is participating in some way which takes it out of the realm of neutrality. Whether that participation is deliberate or inadvertent, the suspicion of some sort of trickery remains.

 

[NoParty]

The website says they are saving content for the documentary and

I hope they include excerpts with better test parameters...

Hi. First, I want to say that I appreciate you hanging in there, with us.
I think that the extraordinary perspective of TinkerTailor has been invaluable here.

Obviously you were in a starting place very different than many MB posters, here.
Though it may not initially seem like it, many of us would love to find some real magic
in these anecdotes...though examining many, many, many false claims over the years
has made us really question such miracles.

Which brings me to your quote, above: I really recommend approaching this documentary
with extremely low expectations. History shows that when "better" evidence is promised,
at a future date, it's because good evidence simply does not exist.
Here at MB we have watched promises of "amazing, mind-blowing, irrefutable evidence"
supposedly just around the corner, simply never get around the corner...over & over.
Or when the "big reveal" happens, there's just nothing remarkable there.
Most likely, this doc will feature the same sketchy methodology, and lots more
unexplained behind-the-scenes methods--like the Telepathy Tapes--with inexcusably
lazy, unscientific anecdotes. I hate to say it, but I predict that it will only convince
those who are already convinced & those desperate to believe.

 

[Giddierone]

[apologies I drafted this earlier and it may contain points already made]

Puthoff and Targ

"Dr Diane" [Why on earth does Ky Dickens refer to her as Dr. Diane? Like she's TV celebrity Dr. Phil or something. It reveals a level of non-journalistic over-familiarity with an expert who is supposed to be there to add some scientific rigour to the testing], Dr. Powell, cites Puthoff & Targ in her book, ESP, and is, of course, completely uncritical.
p.182

Harold Puthoff, one of the physicists who conducted research on remote viewing, concluded that we have all of the information of the world at some level of awareness. He thought that people who were good at remote
viewing were just better at damping the noise from all the other distractions.

lots of anecdotes and descriptions of things we can't see.

I think this is where the magic happens. The anecdotes which sandwich the dubious test scenarios sound amazing, like the one about Houston reading his brother's friends minds leaving them astounded, or the camera woman describing his rapid-fire testing and his 100% accuracy that could have gone on for hours, or of Asher being able to summarize the content of any book just by touching it, all presented without evidence. [Who knows, perhaps this footage will be in the eventual film—but it's doubtful].

The podcast really reveals itself in the later episodes. Gone is any veneer of scepticism that we saw in episode 1. and there's a long highly emotive defence of Facilitated Communication and how it literally saves lives—"in some countries non-speakers have been euthanized"(!).

Intro to Ep.7 contains the important assumption which runs throughout the remainder of the episodes. "given that non-speakers can communicate telepathically" and this is used to support this massive claim:

"In order for the non-speakers to help us achieve our full potential, we need to help them to achieve theirs, and one gigantic step we can take is by legitimising spelling, despite the fact it means admitting our paradigm is wrong, and telepathy is real. Only then can the non-speakers help us to usher in the future of medicine, technology, spirituality, and science." [ep.8 from 49:00] [bold added]

But it seems like sceptics are obstacles to this new age. We're told that belief is required for the telepathy to work. [some Tinkerbell-type nonsense if ever there was]. But then [in ep.7 at 35:00] we're told that "non-speakers are much more likely to let people into their gifts and knowledge if they have pure intentions and a good heart". [again, presumably this means no mean sceptics allowed].

We're also told that non-speaking autistics are neurologically unable to lie, so they cannot propagate a hoax. We've seen this kind of false argument before in the Ariel School UFO story. Kids can't lie so it must be true. Like there are no other possible explanations.

In another similarity between facilitated communication and the UFO topic, consider Dr. John Mack. He used hypnosis on children as young as two years old (yet tried to redefine it as "relaxation sessions") and he openly admitted that he "co-created" the UFO recollections of his subjects during these sessions by reliving their experience with them with great intensity. This is nothing short of facilitated-experiencerism, where the concerns and interests of the facilitator (Mack) appeared in the testimony of his patients—in the form of apocalyptic visions, environmentalism, concerns about nuclear war etc.

 

[jimmyslippin]

This is just a blatantly transparent attempt to make the demonstration seem all scientific and everything. It's meant to give believers something to latch onto and say "See? These tests were done scientifically" despite their having no idea how an actual rigorous test would be carried out.

"Look, there's nothing up my sleeves!"

It's very interesting they took steps to rule out trickery, but did absolutely nothing to rule out the scientifically proven flaws of FC/RPM/S2C.

 

[deirdre]

Absolutely. But whenever a parent/close companion insists "I have to be there", "He communicates only through me", "We have to do it just this way" or other such claim, that is to me a signal that the companion is participating in some way which takes it out of the realm of neutrality. Whether that participation is deliberate or inadvertent, the suspicion of some sort of trickery remains.

that's the beauty of using autistic children. i wouldnt leave an autistic child alone in that overstimulating room full of strangers, or let them alone with some guy i dont know.
The child needing a specific person as the prompter isnt abnormal either in this situation.
And if mom says "he said telephone" he said "red", who is gonna have the balls to say "it didnt sound anything like that, he needs to do better".

 

[NorCal Dave]

Dr. Powell, cites Puthoff & Targ in her book, ESP, and is, of course, completely uncritical.

And to keep the door revolving:

In another similarity between facilitated communication and the UFO topic, consider Dr. John Mack. He used hypnosis on children as young as two years old (yet tried to redefine it as "relaxation sessions") and he openly admitted that he "co-created" the UFO recollections of his subjects during these sessions by reliving their experience with them with great intensity. This is nothing short of facilitated-experiencerism, where the concerns and interests of the facilitator (Mack) appeared in the testimony of his patients—in the form of apocalyptic visions, environmentalism, concerns about nuclear war etc.

We find the Powell and Mack connection:

Her (Powell) biography also indicates that she "served as the Director of Research for the John E. Mack Institute (JEMI) after John, a former colleague at Harvard, passed in 2004." Many readers will recall that Harvard professor of psychiatry John Mack wrote the 1994 book Abduction: Human Encounters with Aliens and was a famous believer in alien abduction.

https://skepticalinquirer.org/exclusive/the-telepathy-tapes-a-dangerous-cornucopia-of-pseudoscience/

Which, as you suggest brings up the subject of UFOs. Here is a news blurb from the John E. Mack Institute news page about crashed UFO retrieval programs (see link to current thread below):

Intelligence officials say US has retrieved non-human craft
June 5, 2023 — Leslie Kean and Ralph Blumenthal's latest update has been published by The Debrief: "A former intelligence official turned whistleblower has given Congress and the Intelligence Community Inspector General extensive classified information about … intact and partially intact craft of non-human origin."

http://johnemackinstitute.org/category/news/

As we continue spinning the revolving doors, we note that this is hyping a story by Kean and Blumenthal. Not only are they the authors of the NYT UFO piece that introduced the world to Lue Elizondo and AAITP, but Blumenthal is also the author of a biography of Mack:

A biography, The Believer: Alien Encounters, Hard Science, and the Passion of John Mack, by former New York Times reporter Ralph Blumenthal was published by High Road Books in March 2021

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_E._Mack

In the '80s, Bud Hopkins got the alien abduction thing going with the "big 3" of the scene being Hopkins, Mack and Jacobs:

Bud Hopkins had been interested in UFOs for some years. In the 1970s, he became interested in abduction reports and began using hypnosis to extract more details of dimly remembered events. Hopkins soon became a figurehead of the growing abductee subculture.[18]​

The 1980s brought a major degree of mainstream attention to the subject. Works by Hopkins, novelist Whitley Strieber, historian David M. Jacobs and psychiatrist John E. Mack presented alien abduction as a plausible experience.

With Hopkins, Jacobs and Mack, accounts of alien abduction became a prominent aspect of ufology.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alien_abduction

And by the mid '00s, Hopkins was involved with Kean:

On August 21, 2011, Hopkins died from complications of cancer.[3]​ At the time of his death, he was in a relationship with journalist Leslie Kean.[3]​[7]​[75]​

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Budd_Hopkins

And around it goes.

Latest UFO retrieval claim:

https://www.metabunk.org/threads/ja...art-about-non-human-technology-the-egg.13949/

 

[Giddierone]

And around it goes.

Exactly, and just to also note Keane's spiritualist work Surviving Death: A Journalist Investigates Evidence for an Afterlife and her belief in things like ectoplasm...

We're told that belief is required for the telepathy to work.

I just noticed that there's a name for this (according to Powell's book):

...scientists who believe in psychic phenomena tend to have positive results, whereas skeptics tend to have negative results. The believers respond to this with an explanation called "experimenter psi." In other words, if one's intention can influence outcome, which is a form of psychokinesis, then experimenters' beliefs will influence their own experiments. If that is the case, skeptics may never be able to reproduce the results of the believers....Another factor is that skeptics also may create a less conducive environment. — ESP Enigma, p.41

One connecting thread is that in order for humans to contact aliens, spirits, or to engage in telepathy we need to be impaired in some way; hypnosis, seance (trance), autism, all of which require an authority figure (or Shaman?) — but all of which seem easily abused.

 

[John J.]

That is NOT to say that any of the people involved are frauds. But it's important to look past the emotional weight created by focusing on severely autistic individuals and their families and see that this show is really about Psy. A subject with a history of fraud and deceit.

(My emphasis), I think this is an important point.

The fraudster Andrew Wakefield carried out unnecessary, and pointless, lumbar punctures and endoscopies on autistic children/ children with cognitive developmental delays. It is unlikely any of those children would have been capable of giving assent, let alone informed consent; consent was sourced from their parents.
These investigations were pointless because Wakefield already knew what he was going to "discover",
see Wikipedia https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andrew_Wakefield, also https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lancet_MMR_autism_fraud

Both procedures are uncomfortable and can be painful. They can cause distress in robust adults, and carry a small risk of serious complications.
It transpired that Wakefield, who publicly joked about children becoming distressed when he opportunistically took blood from them while they were guests at a child's birthday party, did not seek ethical approval for his pointless and invasive investigations.

Yet (anecdotally, from following news coverage over the years) a number of the parents of the exploited children continued to support Wakefield for years, perhaps some still do today.

There can be little doubt that they love their children, but they are mistaken if they believe(d) Wakefield had their best interests at heart, or that his "findings" are of any value whatsoever. But despite all the evidence...

Never understood why the (UK) Crown Prosecution Service didn't see W's actions as assault, but he's now living in the USA with a career deliberately spreading misinformation about vaccines and claiming to be a victim promoting alternative views about medicines.

 

[tinkertailor]

extraordinary perspective of TinkerTailor

Ahh, the student debt just became worth it!

Though it may not initially seem like it, many of us would love to find some real magic
in these anecdotes...though examining many, many, many false claims over the years
has made us really question such miracles.

Yes, thank you for your grace in handling us. We can be a lot but I'm genuinely so glad you posted this here. This is what I joined Metabunk for, and you're being a great sport.

For what it's worth, I was the kid who stared really really hard at objects and animals and people trying to change them with my mind, the one who bought ESP guides from the 1970s from thrift stores and tried to make my crushes like me with them, and the one who memorized the Dewey decimal system location for paranormal books (it's somewhere in the zeros, if my memory serves me). I still sleep with a crystal under my pillow. My profile picture is Scully, but I'm a Mulder at heart: I want to believe. I just know too much about FC to believe it, and I'm tired of FC being used to take advantage of autistic folks and their caregivers.

We're also told that non-speaking autistics are neurologically unable to lie

Autistic kids aren't a monolith; they're all different. My opinion is that whoever says this has never played Candy Land with a group of autistic kids. Bless their hearts, they can lie. They don't do it like their neurotypical (aka non-autistic) peers, but they can. And they are REALLY good at reading adults.

yet tried to redefine it as "relaxation sessions"

Yep, and the current FC proponents claim that the facilitator is needed for regulation and attention. I'm a big fan of supporting my autistic communicators' regulation, but I do that through modeling regulation in my body and providing them with choices and acknowledging all of their communication, verbal or behavioral.

 

[analiennamed]

I appreciate you hanging in there, with us.

Thanks for this, sincerely. I don't see myself as a hard core believer, but I thought the show was interesting enough to bring a discussion here to learn more about what I might be missing.

I've brought some UFO videos here and never start by posturing that anything is real or unexplainable conventionally, but am genuinely curious about puzzles that don't have obvious solutions to me.

I always speak highly of metabunk in the communities I am involved with for the sober and logical discussions. But yeah, it can be tough here as some one asking questions about topics the forum has particular attitudes or baggage attached to.

Sincerely blown away by a lot of the things I learned in this thread re: @tinkertailor and others so thanks. I do believe there are things in life we don't understand yet and will appear magical as we grasp them, but doesn't look like that's going to come from the telepathy tapes just yet.

 

[deirdre]

But yeah, it can be tough here as some one asking questions about topics the forum has particular attitudes or baggage attached to.

nah, be a rebel. it's fun. besides the irritated ones are irritated whether you are here talking or not. don't take it personally.

 

[Charlie Wiser]

thanks man, im not a full time researcher of this podcast, its a recent interest of mine that i thought i could learn more about from the people here, but sometimes the attitudes of folks like yourself makes it really hard to bring discussions to this forum. i started this thread and you've been pretty engaged - i am not here to debate you. 1 crew person or 2, 1 liar or 2 (it would take more than 1 person to facilitate and overlook akil and his moms cheating) it seems like my general points are still being communicated - but please, correct away.

You're posting on a forum that demands accuracy and evidence. Not exaggerating is a good start if you want to avoid what you call an "attitude" in response. As someone said previously, it's very common for "debunkers" to be accused of accusing claimants of lying when in the vast majority of cases it's misperception at work.

 

[analiennamed]

You're posting on a forum that demands accuracy and evidence. Not exaggerating is a good start if you want to avoid what you call an "attitude" in response. As someone said previously, it's very common for "debunkers" to be accused of accusing claimants of lying when in the vast majority of cases it's misperception at work.

I didn't mean attitude like you have a bad attitude I mean: "a settled way of thinking or feeling about someone or something, typically one that is reflected in a person's behavior." - Please have a great night and thanks for engaging in this discussion with me.

 

[Charlie Wiser]

I didn't mean attitude like you have a bad attitude I mean: "a settled way of thinking or feeling about someone or something, typically one that is reflected in a person's behavior." - Please have a great night and thanks for engaging in this discussion with me.

My settled way of thinking or feeling, in this case, related to exaggeration. It's detrimental to valuable conversation. It creates strawmen. And it won't get anyone closer to the truth.

 

[analiennamed]

My settled way of thinking or feeling, in this case, related to exaggeration. It's detrimental to valuable conversation. It creates strawmen. And it won't get anyone closer to the truth.

I wasn't even talking about you Charlie, there are others in this thread who mentioned being unwilling to listen to the show because of their feelings about esp experiments. I've run into similar issues on other threads but please forgive me for not quoting them here, I may be exaggerating - it's my nature and something I need to work at. I hope you have a wonderful evening.

 

[NorCal Dave]

but am genuinely curious about puzzles that don't have obvious solutions to me

I can't speak for others, but I think that's why a lot of us are here. It's fun and intellectually stimulating. Personally, I'm not very good at it but I love following along as something gets solved. Sometimes it doesn't, but the effort is worth it.

But yeah, it can be tough here as some one asking questions about topics the forum has particular attitudes or baggage attached to.

I'm not sure "baggage" is the right term. We do have very specific rules of evidence that we try to follow. Just throwing out opinions and anecdotes doesn't cut it here. What you may consider "baggage" is more like experience I would argue. Lots of claims have been made and lots of them end up being incorrect. After a while, one gets used to what's being claimed and how it's going to play out.

In the thread about a UFO retrieval program, I managed to correctly predict what the undisclosed secret video would look like. NOT because I'm smarter or clairvoyant, I like others here have seen a lot of the same claims before, so it becomes easy to predict what the new claim will be.

Many here have seen many of the same claims before, so there is a tendency to be skeptical when a new version is presented.

 

[deirdre]

I wasn't even talking about you Charlie, there are others in this thread who mentioned being unwilling to listen to the show because of their feelings about esp experiments.

did they actually say that is why? it likely is why for a few members. but aside from Charlie, did ANYONE in this thread (i only skimmed it so this is an honest question) listen to an hour long podcast of people talking about experiments?

i actually do believe in mild telepathy (not anywhere at the level in the video..its pretty far fetched esp. if they are claiming 100% or so), but LISTENING to a podcast of people doing psychic experiments is pretty worthless. I dont mean this as an insult but it is like listening to a magic show ..ie. what's the fun in that? This is a debunking website, without visuals we cant see whats happening. Thats why i had/have/will ever have no interest in listening to the Telepathy Tapes Podcast.

Not trying to be combatative, just pointing out an hour long just-audio of experiments is a hard sell.

 

[analiennamed]

did they actually say that is why? it likely is why for a few members. but aside from Charlie, did ANYONE in this thread (i only skimmed it so this is an honest question) listen to an hour long podcast of people talking about experiments?

i actually do believe in mild telepathy (not anywhere at the level in the video..its pretty far fetched esp. if they are claiming 100% or so), but LISTENING to a podcast of people doing psychic experiments is pretty worthless. I dont mean this as an insult but it is like listening to a magic show ..ie. what's the fun in that? This is a debunking website, without visuals we cant see whats happening. Thats why i had/have/will ever have no interest in listening to the Telepathy Tapes Podcast.

Not trying to be combatative, just pointing out an hour long just-audio of experiments is a hard sell.

In so many words one user (who I have no beef with) wrote "Speaking just for myself (though I would not be surprised if many other people feel this way), I'm not interested in stories and anecdotes after decades of ufology." after I suggested that I hoped others would listen to the podcast to consider the other stories and anecdotes being presented.

I'm acting in good faith and am describing things to the best of my ability but Im getting a little worn down/demoralized here. I wish you all the best thanks again for the interesting chat.

 

[metac3]

A "10 minutes read" for "247 pages"? Oh my.

Look at my enemies dog... They won't even click and scroll for 4 seconds, in order to find out that the page number is based on the journal it was published in

 

[tinkertailor]

They won't even click and scroll for 4 seconds, in order to find out that the page number is based on the journal it was published in

Speaking as someone who lives and breathes research articles and is super familiar with citing them via page numbers, I also didn't get that. You didn't make it particularly clear.

We have a no-click policy here that prevents this sort of thing from happening. It kinda streamlines communication and makes it so that you don't have to convince any readers to read something for you. It's a pain sometimes but it is really helpful.

I do believe there are things in life we don't understand yet and will appear magical as we grasp them, but doesn't look like that's going to come from the telepathy tapes just yet.

That's a beautiful way of thinking about it. If you (or anyone else) wants to DM me about FC, please do. I love talking about it and have run out of willing ears (my poor boyfriend has become an expert on it against his will). I might take some time to respond, but you will come out educated.