'The Myth of Quantum Consciousness.'

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Pete Tar

Senior Member.
But consciousness needs a body to be relate to and be conscious of - that is the point of it. Not sure what the point would be of being conscious of a disembodied 'field'. There's no motivation.


I think it's the way we've conceptually isolated consciousness that makes us seek it as an entity when it is really an emergent phenomenon that grows out of the interactions of physical structures. Simple feedback gone complex.

I wonder if memory is what is meant by consciousness, or just moment-to-moment awareness?
 

deirdre

Senior Member.
But consciousness needs a body to be relate to and be conscious of - that is the point of it. Not sure what the point would be of being conscious of a disembodied 'field'. There's no motivation.


I think it's the way we've conceptually isolated consciousness that makes us seek it as an entity when it is really an emergent phenomenon that grows out of the interactions of physical structures. Simple feedback gone complex.

I wonder if memory is what is meant by consciousness, or just moment-to-moment awareness?
i think memory and awareness needs mind too. like those flowers that close up when you get close, automatic reflexes?

edit 4:04 ok my psychic dictionary is calling it "supraconsciousness".
 
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Im thinking Out of body experience due to near death experience, remote viewing or astral projection is just getting like thoughts or images in the brain when alive whether its true or not I don't know but its hard to do.
 

deirdre

Senior Member.
Im thinking Out of body experience due to near death experience, remote viewing or astral projection is just getting like thoughts or images in the brain when alive whether its true or not I don't know but its hard to do.
astral projection is out of body too. I'm just saying I think that would prove "non mind based consciousness" better than near death experiences. because nde can be explained by biological processes.
 
Astral projection is not as vivid as a out of body experience due to NDE , no biological process can explain how braindead patients veridically observe events around them
 
Im not sure about Astral projection but remote viewing is alot different to a full on Out of body experience as they just get mental images which could be random .
Your welcome to provide mea medical explanation to how people accurately see and hear things going on in the operating table when they are clinically dead, good luck.
 

Pete Tar

Senior Member.
Im not sure about Astral projection but remote viewing is alot different to a full on Out of body experience as they just get mental images which could be random .
Your welcome to provide mea medical explanation to how people accurately see and hear things going on in the operating table when they are clinically dead, good luck.

Well the boring answer would be that they weren't dead.
After all, their body still continued to support life, so something was registering something. Then when their full faculties return they remember what happened while they were 'dead'. But they are still anchored to existence in a body, so it cannot really be said they existed without it.
Maybe if the body was dead for two weeks, everything dismembered and removed and put on ice, and then they were surgically put back together and reanimated - if they had a story to tell about the experience, that would be a little more compelling.

And you'll have to be precise on 'accurately see and hear things', because it sounds like hearsay so it's not exactly hard evidence. What if they were only a little bit accurate? Has the accuracy been tested?
 

George B

Extinct but not forgotten Staff Member
Im not sure about Astral projection but remote viewing is alot different to a full on Out of body experience as they just get mental images which could be random .
Your welcome to provide mea medical explanation to how people accurately see and hear things going on in the operating table when they are clinically dead, good luck.
Hmmmm . . . brain activity can be measured via EEGs, seen on MRI scans, etc . . . there is an electromagnetic signal of some frequency and strength . . . there are several species of animals that have sensory capabilities humans are not normally found to possess or at least normally use and may well be vestigial except in the most unusual of situations . . . a NDE may well represent such an example . . .
 

Pete Tar

Senior Member.
http://www.express.co.uk/news/scien...ce-is-taking-near-death-experiences-seriously
 

Pete Tar

Senior Member.
Or read the actual reports. (which is what I was looking for, the investigative research of incidents.)

Are you implying she *did* find support for the claims but covered it up?
 
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Pete Tar

Senior Member.
Your welcome to provide mea medical explanation to how people accurately see and hear things going on in the operating table when they are clinically dead, good luck.
Here's a more in-depth look at such claims.
 
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Or read the actual reports. (which is what I was looking for, the investigative research of incidents.)

Are you implying she *did* find support for the claims but covered it up?
I don't know whats wrong with her but I have found claims

Im sure some claims are wrong and maybe dreams , It would be interesting to see if they were actually dead .There is a difference between the validity of a near death experience and an actual death experience.
 
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There are some good points in your article , we need to test the validity of near death experiences with people that have clinically died and have come back and were not just having some random hallucination while sleeping,dreaming or not even close to death, also memories over time fade or change so the people need to be interviewed right after death.
This has been in process with the AWARE project and Dr Sam Parnia and other neuroscientists and psychologists have ruled out the Hallucination hypothesis with some of the patients who accurately viewed events while being clinically braindead, how can one see or hear or hallucinate for that matter when there is no oxygen to the brain?
The results are coming soon .
 

deirdre

Senior Member.
I don't want to get to much into this subject (especially on this thread) but here are some avenues to pursue in your research. note: if science proves all nde is biological that doesn't disprove an afterlife or 'consciousness migration'.


http://www.plosone.org/article/info%3Adoi%2F10.1371%2Fjournal.pone.0075257


bold is my insert
http://science.howstuffworks.com/life/inside-the-mind/human-brain/brain-death.htm
 
Im not a brain expert either but the cells in the brain start to die after 6 minutes as soon as oxygen stops going to the brain the neurones stop firing, anyway Im no brain expert but Dr Sam Parnia is and its quite interesting what he says

 

Mick West

Administrator
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Im not a brain expert either but the cells in the brain start to die after 6 minutes as soon as oxygen stops going to the brain the neurones stop firing, anyway Im no brain expert but Dr Sam Parnia is and its quite interesting what he says


What does he say?
 
 

George B

Extinct but not forgotten Staff Member
Very fascinating discussion . . . having years of experience in medicine I have been present at the death of several people as well as the deaths of my Mother and Father-in-law . . . my wife worked some time as an oncology nurse and experienced several death events as well . . . what I will say is that each death was significantly unique . . . it is my observation that it appears very final but there are common events that are suggestive of evidence that the person is aware of their leaving and they seem to be focused on some type of unseen world we cannot see . . . call it hallucination, cascading brain death or whatever you want . . . but these dying people are communicating with someone or something not visible in the room and it predates their deaths by sometimes days, hours and sometimes minutes. . . It appears to me these phantom encounters I am suggesting are similar to those testified to by individuals experiencing NDE . . . but since those who really die never return to substantiate those observations we simply may never know . . .
 
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George B

Extinct but not forgotten Staff Member
This video meets much of the criteria for analysis discussed in the Thread so far . . .


1) Monitored brain activity throughout NDE . . . before , during and after . . .

2) Confirmation loss of blood to the brain as well as temperature at 60 degree F . .
 
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George B

Extinct but not forgotten Staff Member
You still need to explain what's in it though.
1) Monitored brain activity throughout NDE . . . before , during and after . . .

2) Confirmation loss of blood to the brain as well as temperature at 60 degree F . .
 

George B

Extinct but not forgotten Staff Member
This video meets much of the criteria for analysis discussed in the Thread so far . . . .
This following video shows the following:

1) the specific memories were detailed

2) the events remembered occurred while brain had no function . . . confirmed by monitoring equipment

 

deirdre

Senior Member.
This following video shows the following:

1) the specific memories were detailed

2) the events remembered occurred while brain had no function . . . confirmed by monitoring equipment

I'm pretty open minded and being female understand 'intuition skills' but I'm not seeing any extraordinary details in this. of course the drill looks like an electric toothbrush, that's what dental drills look like. which is exactly as she describes the sound in your first video.

the only other 'detail' is someone saying "there's a problem". That's how 99 % of psychics work. You throw out enough stuff and eventually something will be right. "Houston, we've got a problem" isn't a far fetched fear in this situation. and you haven't any correlation really. Noone confirms the phrase 'we've got a problem' in the middle of the surgery. Perhaps, also as she was waking she overheard someone telling her husband 'we ran into a slight problem when we...'.

Personally, I'm not seeing anything that confirms events were remembered when brain has no function.
 

Pete Tar

Senior Member.
A sceptical examination of the Pam Reynolds case...
(sorry, very long)
 

George B

Extinct but not forgotten Staff Member
I'm pretty open minded and being female understand 'intuition skills' but I'm not seeing any extraordinary details in this. of course the drill looks like an electric toothbrush, that's what dental drills look like. which is exactly as she describes the sound in your first video.

the only other 'detail' is someone saying "there's a problem". That's how 99 % of psychics work. You throw out enough stuff and eventually something will be right. "Houston, we've got a problem" isn't a far fetched fear in this situation. and you haven't any correlation really. Noone confirms the phrase 'we've got a problem' in the middle of the surgery. Perhaps, also as she was waking she overheard someone telling her husband 'we ran into a slight problem when we...'.

Personally, I'm not seeing anything that confirms events were remembered when brain has no function.
Good points . . . how about her memories of OBE . . . ?
 

deirdre

Senior Member.
Good points . . . how about her memories of OBE . . . ?
I don't know, I try not to leave my body. my friend used to 'do' astral projection all the time (and he didn't really do drugs) until he got scared and stopped. said he almost couldn't find his body the last time, freaked him out. ; /
 

George B

Extinct but not forgotten Staff Member
I don't know, I try not to leave my body. my friend used to 'do' astral projection all the time (and he didn't really do drugs) until he got scared and stopped. said he almost couldn't find his body the last time, freaked him out. ; /
Do you know how he accomplished his OBE?
 

deirdre

Senior Member.
Do you know how he accomplished his OBE?
he relaxed and let go. he said.

I do wonder about OBEs and mindset. for instance Jim is a musician, like this above chick. I have one friend who always dies in her dreams and several others that fly regularly.
I NEVER fly or die. I can change things like Freddy Krugar but mostly my dreams maintain 'earthiness?' I did have one of those episodes like the alien abduction people talk about, being paralyzed.. a monster grabbed me by the leg and I was struggling to wake up (cause he was gonna kill me) and I swear the claw on my leg felt real as anything. Freaked me out. so I said "wake up Brian" outloud (because the monster was the little boy I knew) and he let go and I finished waking up.

I don't want to use the word 'rational' because I'm not always rational. but, I wonder if the OBE people are people who can fly in their dreams due to their psychological makeup. Where as I probably will never have an OBE because of mine.
 

George B

Extinct but not forgotten Staff Member
he relaxed and let go. he said.

I do wonder about OBEs and mindset. for instance Jim is a musician, like this above chick. I have one friend who always dies in her dreams and several others that fly regularly.
I NEVER fly or die. I can change things like Freddy Krugar but mostly my dreams maintain 'earthiness?' I did have one of those episodes like the alien abduction people talk about, being paralyzed.. a monster grabbed me by the leg and I was struggling to wake up (cause he was gonna kill me) and I swear the claw on my leg felt real as anything. Freaked me out. so I said "wake up Brian" outloud (because the monster was the little boy I knew) and he let go and I finished waking up.

I don't want to use the word 'rational' because I'm not always rational. but, I wonder if the OBE people are people who can fly in their dreams due to their psychological makeup. Where as I probably will never have an OBE because of mine.
Hmmmmm . . . Me thinks there are some people who are much more likely than others to have vivid dreams and night terrors etc . . . if you have had a cat or dog you know some will have very vivid dreams where they make running movements and dogs often bark in their sleep. . . I am sure we are no different . . . I remember as a young boy having flying dreams . . . very vivid and realistic . . . I can remember the feelings they provoked and I am 63 . .
 

deirdre

Senior Member.
Hmmmmm . . . Me thinks there are some people who are much more likely than others to have vivid dreams and night terrors etc . . . if you have had a cat or dog you know some will have very vivid dreams where they make running movements and dogs often bark in their sleep. . . I am sure we are no different . . .
maybe the word is cautious. not "earthy". I always maintain a logical side even in my dreams when they start getting dangerous. for instance my mind knew it was Brian when the monster dug his claws into my back (which hurt bad) and I thought "wait. this doesn't happen to me in my dreams" and then rationalized the monster represented my angst and frustration over what was happening to this little boy. so my brain still maintains 'rational' thinking in my dreams. if I fell off a cliff I wouldn't fly. I wouldn't die. I would wake myself up.
 
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