'The Myth of Quantum Consciousness.'

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Note- there has been no or very little scientific studies or understanding as to how or what a hallucinogenic experience is and how it effects the brain.
Why is it that DMT users including myself see the same things if they are just random hallucinations.
I also thought DMT was just going to be trippy and fun and I would see some cool stuff until I smoked it and then within seconds I knew it was real
 

Mick West

Administrator
Staff member
Why is it that DMT users including myself see the same things if they are just random hallucinations.

Because people's brains work the same way, and we are hard-wired for certain things like faces.

People also have very similar dreams, like dreaming you can fly, or walk underwater, or being naked at school, or forgetting to do your final exams. Do these things indicate anything other than similar brains.

Look at depictions of DMT elves. You'd expect people to see the same elves, but they just show a kaleidoscopic symmetry, and "trippy" colors. The "elves" are all different. It seems much more like peoples brains are just being altered in similar ways.

 
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WeedWhacker

Senior Member
People also have very similar dreams, like dreaming you can fly, or walk underwater, or being naked at school, or forgetting to do your final exams.
VERY true!!!

(Just last night? Without getting too "personal"....I had a 'sex' dream....in this context).
 

Svartbjørn

Senior Member.
Whatever that is.

Normal Brain chemistry applies to everyone.. granted they're all different which is why you enter into what's called an "altered state' when your brain chemistry is affected by drugs.. hallucinogenic or not. There are certain drugs out there that cause your brain to interact with the neurons (and the way they send/receive information) in such a way that it will alter your perception of the world around you.. IE Hallucinate.

Doesn't apply to "normal" experience?

Dunno Jazz.. do you normally see pink elephants dancing in an etherial state while the Sun does circles around trees?

My mind is always compromised.

probably why we all love ya so much

Whereas otherwise you do?

Most of the time.. yes, I do. When I was in those altered states.. god only knows.. when I sobered up, no I didnt.

Giving you a fresh viewpoint. That must have sucked. LOL. :)

Im not opposed to fresh viewpoints and that isnt the issue. There's a HUGE difference between having a fresh view point and buying into an hallucinogenic episode brought on by the consumption of a drug or drugs that do EXACTLY that. Taking Peyote, or tripping on LSD etc.. isnt what Id call a good way to confirm the mysteries of the universe... would you? You're altering your cognitive abilities to a point that you can not be sure that what you're seeing is real, or an effect of the drug.
 
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Efftup

Senior Member.
you forgot to do your final exams because you were naked in school having sex with someone while flying underwater. Come on, who HASN'T had THAT dream?
 

Jazzy

Closed Account
There are certain drugs out there that cause your brain to interact with the neurons (and the way they send/receive information) in such a way that it will alter your perception of the world around you.. IE Hallucinate.
But experience alone can cause the same effects.

do you normally see pink elephants dancing in an etherial state while the does circles around trees?
I've never seen such things. I could see why Van Gogh painted the way he did, though.

isnt what I'd call a good way to confirm the mysteries of the universe
Not on its own, no. But examining the boundaries of one's perception (at least once) might help one better interpret that universe.
 

Svartbjørn

Senior Member.
Not on its own, no. But examining the boundaries of one's perception (at least once) might help one better interpret that universe.

I whole heartedly agree.. and thats why I tried what I tried.. but looking back at it, all it expanded was my dislike for hallucinogenics.
 

deirdre

Senior Member.
Have you done DMT yes or no , if you havent shut your mouth you dont know
if you believe your premise is real, then surely you know you aren't the only one who has experienced "it".

The next logical progression of thought, is that there must be people out there... better at it than you. So perhaps, trying a bit harder to stay polite, would be a good idea.
 

Whitebeard

Senior Member.
The speed of light in a vacuum always remains the same, but try turning a flash light on under water and watch what happens, or watch light as it travels through a pane of glass.
Belfast born sci-fi author Bob Shaw explored this concept, taken to an extreme, in a series of short stories and novels. Most notably 'The Light of Other Days' (PDF here) and 'Other Days Other Eyes' (review and criticism here) Both well worth a read.
 
Interestingly my friend who has done DMT many more times than me, has communicated with 20-30 different species of extraterrestrials many of the prey mantis type .
This was also found in Rick strassmans clinical studies on DMT.
Why the human brain evolved to see prey mantis alien type creatures it totally beyond me.
Why humans and animals have evolved to hallucinate to DMT is another question. I dont have any answers as DMT is the most mysterious thing I have ever encountered.
Why are there so many snake/dragon/serpent creatures found in ayahuasca and dmt visions - the first thing I saw was a serpent of light enter my body and then later when researching dmt I found many other users see the same things.
 

WeedWhacker

Senior Member
Interestingly my friend who has done DMT many more times than me, has communicated with 20-30 different species of extraterrestrials many of the prey mantis type .
This was also found in Rick strassmans clinical studies on DMT.
Why the human brain evolved to see prey mantis alien type creatures it totally beyond me.
Why humans and animals have evolved to hallucinate to DMT is another question. I dont have any answers as DMT is the most mysterious thing I have ever encountered.
Why are there so many snake/dragon/serpent creatures found in ayahuasca and dmt visions - the first thing I saw was a serpent of light enter my body and then later when researching dmt I found many other users see the same things.

Please help me with this acronym: "DMT"?

Thanks.
 

WeedWhacker

Senior Member
oops....guess all that "DMT" {aka, "ethanol"} affected my memory! ;)

Apparently this stuff ("DMT") can occur in nature, in the Amazon (doesn't everything?). But also can be synthesized in labs.

So, as an hallucinogenic...is it fair to say that when "under the influence" of it, that a person's perceptions might be a bit 'suspect'?

Meaning....a "perception" of benevolent extraterrestials who routinely visit the Earth? (I'd LOVE for this to be an actual fact, don't get me wrong!).
 
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deirdre

Senior Member.
Why are there so many snake/dragon/serpent creatures found in ayahuasca and dmt visions
just a guess..maybe cause when youre tripping "light" does squiggle. like photographs at night when the camera shakes and street lamps are squiggly. peyote (so ive read) does stringy stuff too and orbs.
But stringy stuff and orbs is what you see behind your eyelids when you look at bright light and tehn close you eyes too. blood vessels? "floaters"-which is a believe a medical thing.

besides what else would enter your body? surely you wouldnt hallucinate a house entering your body. i'm not being sarcastic, im actually wondering what else you would hallucinate. aliens and goblins and whatnot are humanoid forms which makes sense.

i think if you hallucinated a shape that is Literally Alien to something already known to humans, that would be better proof of "seeing something "alien" or "quantum".

again just brainstorming
 

Whitebeard

Senior Member.
What would help prove the existence of these 'trip aliens' was if you asked them for the solution to a mathematical problem that humanity has yet to solve, then you could take the solution they give you to a mathematician who could then check their solution, if you could repeat this several times under laboratory conditions then you would be some way down the line to proving that you can chat to real alien, or trans-dimensional beings, and help humanity at the same time.

And I suggest math problems, because as far as we know mathematics is a constant throughout the universe, 2+2=4 on earth, the moon or whatever galaxy you care to name.

Here's a few that need solving...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_unsolved_problems_in_mathematics
Just a random thought
 

Whitebeard

Senior Member.
math may be math but how are the aliens supposed to know what you're asking?
If these aliens are part of the 'quantum of consciousness' and his friend 'Has Communicated' with them, then according to his claims communication is possible. Therefore all he need to do is memorise the problem and repeat it to them...

...maybe
 

deirdre

Senior Member.
If these aliens are part of the 'quantum of consciousness' and his friend 'Has Communicated' with them, then according to his claims communication is possible. Therefore all he need to do is memorise the problem and repeat it to them...

...maybe
oh yea. i forgot

Joe "what'd ya talk about?"
Mary "shopping mostly"
 

Gundersen

Senior Member.
Interestingly my friend who has done DMT many more times than me, has communicated with 20-30 different species of extraterrestrials many of the prey mantis type .
This was also found in Rick strassmans clinical studies on DMT.
Why the human brain evolved to see prey mantis alien type creatures it totally beyond me.
Why humans and animals have evolved to hallucinate to DMT is another question. I dont have any answers as DMT is the most mysterious thing I have ever encountered.
Why are there so many snake/dragon/serpent creatures found in ayahuasca and dmt visions - the first thing I saw was a serpent of light enter my body and then later when researching dmt I found many other users see the same things.

http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn20978-drug-hallucinations-look-real-in-the-brain.html
So basically, DMT or Ayahuasca tricks the brain into not being able to distinguish between imagination and reality. As mentioned before, our brains work very similar, which explain why the same "creatures" are experienced. What this study indicates is that the difference with DMT is simply that it seem more real.
 
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Interesting study and Im sure that the brain is functioning while the ayahuasca is working just as the brain functions while we are dreaming and when we dream it feels real and sometimes you cant tell the difference between dreaming and reality.
There is neurological basis for everything in the brain no one is arguing that point.
Whether there is some quantum coherence within the microtubles giving rise to consciousness in the nuerons or whether the nuerons themselves are forming the consciousness is still a mystery.
 
When you look at a solid brick of gold is it really there ?
If you look with a super powerful microscope trying to find this solid heavy thing you will find that its just space and as you look closer and closer trying to find it you will find it keeps on disappearing until you get to the planck scale at which level the act of observation itself is creating the the electron.
If we therefore use this logic with the brains nuerons what is a nueron really consisted of ?
There is no material reality as everything is made of quantum stuff anyway so its only logical as Sir Penrose says to think that maybe there is a link between consciousness and the quantum effects at the basis of all matter which effects the cells,nuerons and the brain in a whole
 
When you look at a solid brick of gold is it really there ?
If you look with a super powerful microscope trying to find this solid heavy thing you will find that its just space and as you look closer and closer trying to find it you will find it keeps on disappearing until you get to the planck scale at which level the act of observation itself is creating the the electron.
If we therefore use this logic with the brains nuerons what is a nueron really consisted of ?
There is no material reality as everything is made of quantum stuff anyway so its only logical as Sir Penrose says to think that maybe there is a link between consciousness and the quantum effects at the basis of all matter which effects the cells,nuerons and the brain in a whole

First of all, neurons are cells. You are also beginning to delve into metaphysics, which is probably not a subject meant for this site. However, we can sidestep the metaphysics convo and still talk about theories relating quantum mechanics to brain function. So, you make the claim that quantum mechanics is involved in consciousness. You need to expand on this idea and put forth a cohesive thought or argument. You need to define consciousness, explain why you think quantum mechanics specifically is involved in consciousness, and suggest why this matters. Of course any claims you make should be backed up with some form of verifiable, falsifiable, evidence.
 
This is not my theory Conspiracy atheist but is the theory of Stuart Hammerof and Sir Penrose you can find their hypothesis on their website.
How to define and test for consciousness is impossible it seems.
What is reality and how do we test for it ? With quantum mechanics we affect the experiment I.E the observer effect so in that case what is real the photon or the wave or both ? The observer the observed or both ?
If material reality is real and how do we test for it ? What experiments have shown material reality to be real ?
 

WeedWhacker

Senior Member
I do not where this thread is going...."some" may think it is transitioning into Science Fiction.

I 'Grok' the concept, and/or intent? Yeah....I've read a LOT
of Science Fiction novels, and short stories. So......
 

Gundersen

Senior Member.
When you look at a solid brick of gold is it really there ?

I love philosophy, but really, with that logic nobody can ever state anything with certainty. You can always say "Well, sure, that's your reality, mine is different". The main question is if an experience is created based on external or internal stimuli. As shown on studies of sensory deprivation, when the brain does not receive any input, it creates its own reality. Simply being blindfolded and wearing earmuffs for a prolonged period will make you hallucinate. If you combine hallucinations with a substance which makes it impossible for the brain to distinguish between reality and imagination, you will have something which feels real, but that does not make it more real than a daydream.

I agree, we can't define consciousness. Even reality is hard to define. We do however have definitions for the physical world and drug-induced hallucinations does not fall into that category. Sure, people can make up an alternate reality with alternative laws of the nature, and nobody will be able to scientifically debunk an alternate reality.

If you say that taking a substance will make you experience machine-elves, which nobody else can see, hear or feel, and leaves no trace behind of their existence, I would argue that the most rational explanation is that the experience is based on internal stimuli. What if two people were on DMT at the same time, would they be able to describe exactly the same experience? Would it hold up in a cross examination? I doubt it, but I am also biased towards never believing in anything paranormal, so I guess my subjective opinion matters very little.

I think this falls into the category of religion, which neither can't nor should be debunked or rationalized. It's a matter of believing and faith.
 
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Efftup

Senior Member.
When you look at a solid brick of gold is it really there ?
If you look with a super powerful microscope trying to find this solid heavy thing you will find that its just space and as you look closer and closer trying to find it you will find it keeps on disappearing until you get to the planck scale at which level the act of observation itself is creating the the electron.
If we therefore use this logic with the brains nuerons what is a nueron really consisted of ?
There is no material reality as everything is made of quantum stuff anyway so its only logical as Sir Penrose says to think that maybe there is a link between consciousness and the quantum effects at the basis of all matter which effects the cells,nuerons and the brain in a whole
the electron is not CREATED by observing, but you can not measure where it is AND how fast it is moving at the same time (heisenberg's uncertainty principle) because at this scale, anything you do to "observe" it, will affect it.
 

Jazzy

Closed Account
This is descending into philosophy, or, even worse, into epistemology. If it can't be tested, and has no consequence, then it's irrelevant.
A bit like any theory that mind=consciousness=quantum control=.
Proponents ought to be shot with real bullets, with the instruction to save themselves by adjusting the bullet quantum position to elsewhere in apace. The motivation to stay alive should be strong enough to make it work, no?
Or alternatively they should consider history, or why money is apparently wasted by investing it in the arms industry.
 
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