FatPhil
Senior Member.
No need to hit kingdom Animalia, pitcher plants and venus fly traps have worked out all they need is the right perfume, and the prey will willingly come to them.
Aliens: Good or Bad?
- Thread starter NorCal Dave
- Start date
John J.
Senior Member.
I guess that depends on the hypothetical alien's reasons for making contact.
As others have posted, our only analogies are perhaps contacts made between previously isolated human societies.
The European seafaring/ colonial nations, largely out of competition with each other, "discovered" different societies in the Americas and Australasia, and had the material means- practical sea-going ships, trade items, firearms- to exploit the peoples of west Africa.
With very few enlightened exceptions, the Europeans (and their immediate colonial descendants) appeared to regard the peoples that they encountered as less civilised- maybe culturally less mature- than themselves. Despite the obvious humanity of non-European peoples, the agendas of their "discoverers" were imposed upon them, sometimes mercilessly.
The "immaturity" of non-European cultures was, if anything, used as a justification to take their lands and impose foreign rule and cultural norms.
Thankfully, maybe It's unlikely that we have anything that a spacefaring alien civilisation would materially need- unless they were following a paradigm of physically colonising any habitable worlds that they found.
Agree- but it is interesting speculation (to me anyway).
We've had threads about whether ETI's would be bound by size constraints and posts about other possible biological factors that might determine their make-up (if they exist at all, of course).
If we ever made contact with an ETI, some consideration of its intentions would probably be more important than its physical nature. The absence of relevant information to guide our speculation doesn't invalidate all discussion on the subject (though it does mean that any conclusions that we reach, individually or collectively , are likely to be very wide of the mark!)
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JMartJr
Senior Member.
Wouldn't intelligence and technology be really handy if your primary goal was to NOT get predated?
(Reminds me of Niven's "Known Space" books, where the predatory Kzinti have nothing but contempt for the herbivorous Puppeteers, the standard put down being "How much intelligence does it take to sneak up on a leaf?" But the Puppeteers, for whom cowardice is the foundation of their ethical system, became fearsomely advanced technologically through what would look to us like a pathological need to minimize risk. )
DavidB66
Senior Member.
Just to expand a bit on a point I made briefly in my post #5 above:
The control of evolutionary processes might take several forms, such as selective reproduction (eugenics), genetic engineering, or biochemical controls (as in Aldous Huxley's Brave New World). The direction in which such methods might be taken would presumably vary according to the values and beliefs of the society in question (or its rulers!) Plausibly, some characteristics would be almost universally favored, such as health, intelligence and good looks (according to the standards of the species), while others such as illness. stupidity, and deformity, would be eliminated as far as possible. (Of course, 'eugenics' is now very out of fashion,, at least in western countries, but more in reaction against the methods previously used than the ultimate aims. If prospective parents could safely boost the health, intelligence and appearance of their children just by taking a pill, how many would reject the option? )
But beyond these basics, the aims might vary considerably. An internally uniform and and conformist but outwardly xenophobic society (think of your own examples) might take measures to reinforce and intensify these tendencies.
A very inegalitarian society might be taken in the direction favored by its ruling class, with even greater inequality (think of the Eloi and Morlocks of The Time Machine. )
If the biology of the species is such that the greatest of all motives is reproduction, we might expect it to give priority to increasing fertility. Such species would probably be the ones most interested in colonising other planets.
Another possibility is that beyond a certain point of development a society would devote itself to the pursuit of pure pleasure. If the society has obtained complete control of its environment, eliminated the need for work, and discovered everything of interest that is to be discovered about nature, what would be left?
If the last of these possibilities is the most common end-point of evolution, we may have another solution to the Fermi Paradox. Why would a species waste time exploring other planets if it already knows everything worth knowing, and has the opportunity to luxuriate in endless ecstasy?
The control of evolutionary processes might take several forms, such as selective reproduction (eugenics), genetic engineering, or biochemical controls (as in Aldous Huxley's Brave New World). The direction in which such methods might be taken would presumably vary according to the values and beliefs of the society in question (or its rulers!) Plausibly, some characteristics would be almost universally favored, such as health, intelligence and good looks (according to the standards of the species), while others such as illness. stupidity, and deformity, would be eliminated as far as possible. (Of course, 'eugenics' is now very out of fashion,, at least in western countries, but more in reaction against the methods previously used than the ultimate aims. If prospective parents could safely boost the health, intelligence and appearance of their children just by taking a pill, how many would reject the option? )
But beyond these basics, the aims might vary considerably. An internally uniform and and conformist but outwardly xenophobic society (think of your own examples) might take measures to reinforce and intensify these tendencies.
A very inegalitarian society might be taken in the direction favored by its ruling class, with even greater inequality (think of the Eloi and Morlocks of The Time Machine. )
If the biology of the species is such that the greatest of all motives is reproduction, we might expect it to give priority to increasing fertility. Such species would probably be the ones most interested in colonising other planets.
Another possibility is that beyond a certain point of development a society would devote itself to the pursuit of pure pleasure. If the society has obtained complete control of its environment, eliminated the need for work, and discovered everything of interest that is to be discovered about nature, what would be left?
If the last of these possibilities is the most common end-point of evolution, we may have another solution to the Fermi Paradox. Why would a species waste time exploring other planets if it already knows everything worth knowing, and has the opportunity to luxuriate in endless ecstasy?
John J.
Senior Member.
I think that's an interesting point. I sometimes wonder if some people might take a more active interest in some real-world issues if they didn't have easy internet access and the choice of online entertainment, TV channels that they have now
(but maybe I'm just getting old).
Maybe a species having a good time would still want to maintain some interest in the wider universe, just to make sure that no-one gate-crashes the party so to speak.
If they were similar to crustaceans, they might spend all their time watching prawn films.
On Spawn Hub.
Ann K
Senior Member.
Or maybe aliens would want to leave a home planet because it had become uninhabitable ...or because they themselves had made it uninhabitable. Or, just perhaps, they had the equivalent of an Elon Musk, and the elite wanted to take the trip of a lifetime just because they could.I think that's an interesting point. I sometimes wonder if some people might take a more active interest in some real-world issues if they didn't have easy internet access and the choice of online entertainment, TV channels that they have now
(but maybe I'm just getting old).
Maybe a species having a good time would still want to maintain some interest in the wider universe, just to make sure that no-one gate-crashes the party so to speak.
If they were similar to crustaceans, they might spend all their time watching prawn films.
On Spawn Hub.
NoParty
Senior Member.
As a young man, I thought the idea of aliens showing up was cool and fun.
As I learned more history, I kind of gravitated towards Stephen Hawking's position
(that aliens would be seeking our resources or something, and probably have superior technology
https://www.popsci.com/science/article/2010-04/hawking-aliens-are-out-there-and-want-our-resources/)
And while the philosopher major in me is intrigued by the debate about whether arriving aliens
were more likely to be peaceful or brutal...even a 10% chance of the latter could be catastrophic,
assuming they have superior technology.
So, yeah, I think aliens are out there...though every silly bs claim (that we've sighted them) makes me
believe more that they haven't reached us...now I'd prefer to fly under the radar indefinitely*...
*(unless they're willing to take Musk off our hands)
As I learned more history, I kind of gravitated towards Stephen Hawking's position
(that aliens would be seeking our resources or something, and probably have superior technology
https://www.popsci.com/science/article/2010-04/hawking-aliens-are-out-there-and-want-our-resources/)
And while the philosopher major in me is intrigued by the debate about whether arriving aliens
were more likely to be peaceful or brutal...even a 10% chance of the latter could be catastrophic,
assuming they have superior technology.
So, yeah, I think aliens are out there...though every silly bs claim (that we've sighted them) makes me
believe more that they haven't reached us...now I'd prefer to fly under the radar indefinitely*...
*(unless they're willing to take Musk off our hands)
nmarsollier
Member
Humans are dangerous, we are warriors and territorials.
I can only see any interaction in the same terms with aliens, learn evolve and confront atinimum differences.
Maybe a part of the world thinks different but as humans, we only need one crazy guy to start a war that could bring us to the extition.
Sorry, for me, it Is not a good moment to met aliens
I can only see any interaction in the same terms with aliens, learn evolve and confront atinimum differences.
Maybe a part of the world thinks different but as humans, we only need one crazy guy to start a war that could bring us to the extition.
Sorry, for me, it Is not a good moment to met aliens
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nmarsollier
Member
When we say aliens good or bad, I believe that we mean if they are good or bad for us.
My opinion is that does not matters if they are good or bad guys, WE are bad for us, so any alien species is bad for us, not for them, we kill ourselves, why I would assume that we will act in a different way with aliens ?
Contact with inferior species is not a problem yet because we are so immature that we cant travel to met them
Dan Burt
Member
If aliens land in the wrong neighborhood they could find their ship "carjacked" or stripped and sitting on cinder blocks when they got back from their beer and Slim Jim run.
Ann K
Senior Member.
We outnumber them. Plus whatever pathogens or parasites they might have that would be bad for us, we also have pathogens and parasites that might be bad for them.
Mendel
Senior Member.
For pathogens to cross species seems quite rare?
It seems more likely that they'd be ill adapted to environmental conditions like atmosphere composition, gravity, or temperature.
JMartJr
Senior Member.
I'd read it as us being dangerous to the species, I did concede we might dissect pilots that we get our hands on! And the whole "stand off at a distance and hurl rocks" things could reduce out numbers to Tyrannosaur levels.
Assuming a totally alien biochemistry, that would seem unlikely, but yeah, I'll concede it is possible. Presumably if they are advanced enough to fly here and poke around, they have pretty good medicine, or at least pretty good biohazard suits.
I'm now recalling a side conversation in Crichton's "Sphere," where the scientists are semi-goading the military guy in charge of the expedition to study what appears to be an alien ship. They point out that we are always assuming aliens that are bad for us would be bad because they were hostile. But it was more likely they'd be dangerous because their existence is incompatible with ours in some way -- maybe they constantly emit a tone that resonates and shatters bone, or they exhale some deadly gas, or chemical that destroys chlorophyll or something. (I have no idea how they figured the comparative likelihoods there, but the point that hypothetical aliens could be extremely dangerous even if perfectly friendly is worth bearing in mind.)
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Eburacum
Senior Member.
I mostly agree with your thesis here, but we should be wary of using the word 'nanoscale' when talking about spacecraft. A typical bacterium is 1000 nanometres in length, and spacecraft on the scale of a bacterium would be almost useless on an interstellar scale. They would not be able to carry much information so would not be very capable of responding to unfamiliar environments, they would not to be able to decelerate from an interstellar cruising speed so most would pass straight through the target system or be burnt up by the atmospheres of stars and planets on arrival, and they would be too small to record much information or transmit that information back to the originating system.
Perhaps you meant 'small, lightweight probes with nanoscale components', which seems a more achievable goal. J D Bernal once suggested that we send bacterial spores to the stars to spread life to an apparently lifeless universe, but he wasn't expecting to get any usable data back from these spores.
JMartJr
Senior Member.
SARS-CoV-2 is a recent example of how it can and does happen! But of course we are not talking about "between species" here, we're looking at aliens, with a totally different evolutionary history. A sponge is more closely related to us that any alien species would be. A mushroom is. So while there are in fact a few pathogens we can catch from plants, crossing not just between species but between Kingdoms, the aliens would be much more remote from us, biologically, then the corn plant is. So would their pathogens.
So I'd be less worried about pathogens in the traditional sense than I would be about something (the aliens, their parasites, their pets) doing something that inadvertently attacks us, rather than infects us.
..that sort of thing.
Alexandria Nick
Senior Member.
Potentially, but that doesn't seem to be working on Earth to the point that it appears that there must not be an advantage for creativity and planning on the part of prey species.
If you look at the list of animals capable of problem solving, the majority are predators (if not apex predators) and very few are prey animals or simply too big to be prey. Squirrels and rats are definitely prey animals (although capable of being predators themselves), but their problem solving is not defensive against predators. They do it to deceive other rats and squirrels or to enable foraging. They don't really appear to do it to get away from predators. Elephants are very intelligent, but nothing actively hunts adult elephants, so there's no much utility in devoting intelligence to defenses. They may be a different direction: they can devote energy to their brains because there's nothing else to put that energy towards.
DavidB66
Senior Member.
Not strictly true. Humans, and their ancestors going back at least a few hundred thousand years, most definitely do hunt elephants. Not just big game hunters, but indigenous peoples. Some of the pygmies of West Central Africa have very effective, if rather nasty, methods of killing forest elephants.
More marginally, there are prides of lions in SW Africa which sometimes bring down adult elephants.
JMartJr
Senior Member.
That may be less true for ancestors of modern elephants, that did the evolving to get to the elephants we have today many (though not all) of whom were smaller, and faced sometimes bigger, sometimes better armed, apex predators than we have today.
Gary C
Active Member
A very good insight and I'll go you one better.
The Fermi Paradox assumes an expansion much like the European Age of Discovery (despite the inhabitants of the New World already being fully aware of their own existence). This in turn was driven by competition over tradable resources. To be tradable requires a) relative abundance of the resource at the remote location compared to local demand and b) an economically viable means of transport. The likelihood of such a situation arising on a galactic scale is near zero.
Scarcity
We can see out billions of light-years in all directions and billions of years back in time. The entire natural universe is composed of the same 92 naturally occurring elements. There are no di-lithium crystals or deposits of unobtainium that a civilization might run out of and be compelled to go to distant star system prospecting for. There is no need for them to come all the way to Earth to dig up metal ores for instance. Any metallic asteroid will do. Human civilization is just short of being able to do that now.
Transportation
Humans have exploited ocean transport for the past few millennia because of of its low cost per ton/mile. Extracting and moving minerals across interstellar distances must be orders of magnitude less costly to be viable. Nearly free FTL travel is an assumption with no basis in our current understanding of the laws of nature. Barring FTL travel, it's hard to see how returning anything other than data from another star system is justifiable.
Why?
Nearly all the resources we consume end up in a waste stream that accumulates in a) the atmosphere b) the ocean or c) a landfill. All of those places remain accessible needing only newer chemical technology and or cheaper energy to extract and reprocess those resources from. We currently dump the concentrated brine produced in water desalination plants back into the sea. In the future, we will extract more and more of the dissolved material for economic use. Compared to the unguessable cost of raiding another planet for its phosphorus, extracting it from seawater will be an economic no-brainer.
So I can see only two reasons for an alien civilization to make a physical visit to Earth
Good: Alien ecologist here to sample Earth life for their database. ~ ET
Bad: Zealots/Ideologues driven by some implacable cultural mandate. ~Daleks
nmarsollier
Member
IMHO we have no clue about aliens motivations because we just can't imagine hew their brains works. To everything is just speculation.
We don't know if there is a hidden science foe us that could change the whole game about spece-time travel, as humans we are discovering 1 thing to realize that there are 10 more new mysteries, so basically we knows just the basics
But one thing I'm pretty sure, as soon as we cath an alien we will develop weapons to will them all and likely will lost , but I'm pretty sure that in the middle of the war some people will be selling soup of alien due its aphrodisiac properties
We don't know if there is a hidden science foe us that could change the whole game about spece-time travel, as humans we are discovering 1 thing to realize that there are 10 more new mysteries, so basically we knows just the basics
But one thing I'm pretty sure, as soon as we cath an alien we will develop weapons to will them all and likely will lost , but I'm pretty sure that in the middle of the war some people will be selling soup of alien due its aphrodisiac properties
NoParty
Senior Member.
FAKE "Genuine Soup o' Alien", to be sure.
Mendel
Senior Member.
Wait until someone figures out how to mine dark matter.
Mendel
Senior Member.
Made with beans.
JMartJr
Senior Member.
Made with beans.
Ann K
Senior Member.
Reminds me of the time a few years ago when there was a destructive gypsy moth infestation in the neighborhood. I showed a caterpillar to the young kids next door and told them to kill any they saw, then armed them with sticks and sent them to search the back yard woods. I went back to doze on the deck to the sounds of kids whacking caterpillars, saying "Eww, green goo!" (Whack, whack, whack) That's pretty much what I'd expect of Cream of Alien.
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