S4: The Bob Lazar Story Evidence?

[MapperGuy]

Why would the facility need to be camouflaged when it's already at one of the most top secret military facilities in the world? You can see the dozens of huge hangers at area 51 that we already know contained secret projects, Skunkworks etc..

The remoteness, massive perimeter, no fly zone around area 51 already gives it sufficient protection. Military command centres are a different type of facility built deep into mountains since they will be initial targets for air strikes. Defensive military installations (like the camouflaged barns and such in Switzerland) also could be camouflage for strategic defensive purposes near perimeter of the border. But I don't see the reason simply for a secure research facility. I'm sure area 51 has bunkers in the mountains, some probably containing projects requiring material shielding, but the entrances and exits don't need to be extremely camouflaged to look like undisturbed desert. Simply being in one of those hangers at A51 makes it impossible to know about without leaks.

Secondly, if indeed there was a massive facility on the scale Bob asserts, surely we would see significant tailing piles in the vicinity. We are talking thousands of dump truck loads which would've been removed

If you need an earth covered storage space for your flying saucers hardened aircraft shelters or ammunition bunkers would work. You could build an assortment at A51, bomb some of them for 'testing' and then use the un-blasted ones to store your UFO. Nobody would think anything of it, just the government wasting money making more test targets than they actually needed.

True. We lived at White Sands Missile Range half a century ago. From the top of the pass between White Sands and Las Cruces, NM, the track was clearly visible where the Butterfield Stage used to run a century before.

The desert has a long memory. Just look at the middle east, evidence of cities and irrigation canals and caravan routes all over the place.

 

[NorCal Dave]

When I think about it, this photograph is emblematic of UFOlogy today:

It's a blurry, grainy, manipulated, zoomed in section of a much larger aerial photo taken 5-6 years ago. If one then squints at some of the various bits of boosted contrasting desert colors, one supposedly sees clear evidence of secret hangers. Not just random secret hangers, but hangers that prove Lazar was telling the truth. For those wanting to believe Lazar in the face of overwhelming evidence he's making stuff up, here's another small tidbit to hang one's belief on.

I find it fascinating that 30 years later, people like Corbel or this MUFON guy Venditelli, keep trying to validate Lazar's stories. And almost as fascinating, is the offering of dubious or vague evidence in support, while completely ignoring anything contradictory. Prior to this film, Lazar had 2-3 main bits of evidence supporting his claims:

1. Knapp produced a telephone directory from Los Alamos National Lab, that included Lazar in the list of employees. He did work at the lab in the mid '80s.
2. The journalist who wrote about Lazar's jet car, said he was a "physicist" at the lab, so he must have vetted that fact before publishing it.
3. One physicist from the lab thought Lazar was a physicist because he looked and dressed like one.

Now we can add a photo of secret hangers that supposedly Lazar could not have known about, unless he actually went there. UFOlogists could say they have a pretty sturdy 3-4 legged stool now. But like so much of UFOlogy, it's all illusory.

Not only is the photo vague at best, it could have been checked against a vast amount of other data, including years of Google Earth. But no, it's just 1 vague photo.

The LANL phone directory with Lazar's name in it is real, but it also shows he worked for a contractor that supplied technicians, not physicists. IF Lazar was a physicist at the lab, he would not have been working for the contractor.

The article about his jet car was a puff piece. The idea that the journalist vetted Lazar's claims about being a physicist, is a 2nd hand claim from Corbel. It appears the journalist didn't vet anything Lazar was claiming, including the notion that an old '70s Honda Civic could attain 200+ MPH when boosted by the jet in it's trunk. Or Lazar's straight up false claim that the Gluhariff jet engine was far more efficient than any other design. Or the claims of how much thrust it created. None of it was vetted, including the claim of being a physicist.

Only one actual physicist from LANL even thought Lazar was a physicist, and he never confirmed it. He just felt Lazar looked like a physicist. This was likely due to Corbel's framing the question in a standard UFO false dichotomy. Corbel found one guy, that when he asked him was Lazar more like a physicist or a janitor, leaving out the idea that he was a technician.

Like so much of UFOlogy, when the evidence presented is examined, there's not much there, there. When counter arguments, like Lazar's non-existent school records, his various claims of involvement in prostitution, his bank bankruptcy, his failure to produce the E115 in his kitchen and others are brought up, they are ignored and supporters point back to the phone book, the jet car article and now some blurry dark areas on a photo.

 

[Ravi]

After watching and listening to the recent Rogan interview, I can for some bizar reason not say he comes across as crazy as all the other "ufo figures" of today. He consistently claims he is only interested in technology and doesn't know, or is interested in ufos. When Rogan again and again starts talking about some nonsense stuff (ufo abductions, Nolan's layared materials, underground Hawara metal found in Egypt), he dismisses most of it. He even says he only likes to talk about things he knows are true, at least by his believes. So when some b*llshit story is told, he does not go along with it. He does not know about most ufo cases, and does not engage in speculation.
This does NOT mean I think he is telling the truth though, but it does give him extra points by not behaving as some ufo lunatic.

 

[Tony]

With regards to the two posts above, I think Lazar is old school snake oil coupled with knowing how to weave a story and some good fortune.

There was just enough surface plausibility, being in the phone book, a journalist calling him a physicist etc that it have him some credence at the time. Of course, dig deeper and it falls apart but without the internet his story was able to propagate without too many challenges for a number of years. Even when it is he has always been able to play the 'government is trying to silence me' card which keeps enough people believing.

He's also been wise enough to stick to his lane. The tale he tells he knows inside out. Time has given him opportunity to polish discrepancies (if he felt the need to) and I'm sure at this point it's as real to him as anything else, even though he knows the truth.

I'd wager he made a conscious decision not to jump on the latest fad. Being old school I think he knows he's better off with his own little corner of UFO lore than to dilute the brand. I'm sure he borrows elements that help to prove what he wants to claim but he'll never outright jump on a bandwagon like many.


Lazar makes enough outlandish claims of his that he doesn't need extra. It's also fewer things to trip up over when questioned.

 

[jackfrostvc]

@NorCal Dave


After a long time, I was able to get in contact with Terry England . the guy who wrote the jetcar article.
He doesn't remember vetting Lazar, just took his word for it that he was a Physicist
I also showed him what Corbell had said , and he didn't remember saying any of that to Corbell.

FWIW. I had also interviewed Fred Dunham who was a A51 security guard at the time of Lazar's supposed story. He said he had checked the logs for Lazar's name, it wasn't there. He also told me he had been to Papoose lake a number of times and there was no secret base there.
He told me something to the effect that everytime they saw Knapp report about aliens at A51 they would have a good laugh about it. He also told me he had been interviewed by Knapp back then and told him all this.
You ever see Knapp report that?

 

[Pelletier103]

Former sr71 pilot referring to S4 both in location and by name at 2:08

Source: https://youtu.be/LxtUVd49g3Q


I would assume the doors would be hidden for satellite imagery ? I don't know much about much but There are other examples we can point to where other militaries do this at sensitive sights. I would imagine for the most part this is quickly becoming an outdated practise what with AI constantly scanning for changes and ground penetrating radar and such …

Why would the facility need to be camouflaged when it's already at one of the most top secret military facilities in the world? You can see the dozens of huge hangers at area 51 that we already know contained secret projects, Skunkworks etc..

The remoteness, massive perimeter, no fly zone around area 51 already gives it sufficient protection. Military command centres are a different type of facility built deep into mountains since they will be initial targets for air strikes. Defensive camouflaged military installations (like the barns and such in Switzerland) are done so for strategic defensive purposes near the country border. But I don't see the logic simply for a secure research facility. I'm sure A51 has bunkers in the mountains, some probably containing projects requiring material shielding, but the entrances and exits don't need to be extremely hidden to look like undisturbed desert. Simply being in one of those hangers at A51 makes it impossible to know about without leaks.

Secondly, if indeed there was a massive facility on the scale Bob asserts, surely we would see significant tailing piles in the vicinity. We are talking thousands of dump truck loads which would have been excavated

 

[FatPhil]

Only one actual physicist from LANL even thought Lazar was a physicist, and he never confirmed it. He just felt Lazar looked like a physicist. This was likely due to Corbel's framing the question in a standard UFO false dichotomy. Corbel found one guy, that when he asked him was Lazar more like a physicist or a janitor, leaving out the idea that he was a technician.

Not doubting you on that, but for "no paraphrasing" purposes can we have the exact quotes?

 

[Minus0]

Former sr71 pilot referring to S4 both in location and by name at 2:08

Captain Freehoff doesn't confirm the location. He says

there was certain people who got on the 737 in the morning and we got to area 51 they would take and go off in a different direction on a bus and then we went on to the north going up towards the hangars

One would certainly expect that there would be multiple groups of different people involved in different projects on the plane that head off in different directions after landing.

How would he know where the bus went? The only way he could verify a potential location would be to follow the bus for a considerable distance across the mountain. Which he never claims.

Secondly, although he says "we knew about S4" it would be more convincing if he could reference any journals or documentation of any kind showing reference to that knowledge before he became enamoured with Bob's story. How did he know about it back then? Through conversations with the scientists on the plane?

Memory contamination after 30 years, especially after he is fully bought in to Bob Lazar's story, is highly plausible. If he had any documented evidence that would be much stronger.

 

[NorCal Dave]

Not doubting you on that, but for "no paraphrasing" purposes can we have the exact quotes?

My bad. I was just musing on the whole situation and quickly pulling things from various threads. I think sometimes the problem with personalities or events that end up with multiple threads is stuff gets scattered or redundant. I will get on that and pull some stuff from other threads.

I was getting some of it from this site, the author of which either interviewed that same people @jackfrostvc did in post #45 and got the same answers, or it's a blog by @jackfrostvc under a different name:

https://medium.com/@signalsintelligence/bob-lazar-red-flags-d0a481d35d8e

 

[DarkLight]

When I think about it, this photograph is emblematic of UFOlogy today:

View attachment 89418

It's a blurry, grainy, manipulated, zoomed in section of a much larger aerial photo taken 5-6 years ago. If one then squints at some of the various bits of boosted contrasting desert colors, one supposedly sees clear evidence of secret hangers. Not just random secret hangers, but hangers that prove Lazar was telling the truth. For those wanting to believe Lazar in the face of overwhelming evidence he's making stuff up, here's another small tidbit to hang one's belief on.

I find it fascinating that 30 years later, people like Corbel or this MUFON guy Venditelli, keep trying to validate Lazar's stories. And almost as fascinating, is the offering of dubious or vague evidence in support, while completely ignoring anything contradictory. Prior to this film, Lazar had 2-3 main bits of evidence supporting his claims:

1. Knapp produced a telephone directory from Los Alamos National Lab, that included Lazar in the list of employees. He did work at the lab in the mid '80s.
2. The journalist who wrote about Lazar's jet car, said he was a "physicist" at the lab, so he must have vetted that fact before publishing it.
3. One physicist from the lab thought Lazar was a physicist because he looked and dressed like one.

Now we can add a photo of secret hangers that supposedly Lazar could not have known about, unless he actually went there. UFOlogists could say they have a pretty sturdy 3-4 legged stool now. But like so much of UFOlogy, it's all illusory.

Not only is the photo vague at best, it could have been checked against a vast amount of other data, including years of Google Earth. But no, it's just 1 vague photo.

The LANL phone directory with Lazar's name in it is real, but it also shows he worked for a contractor that supplied technicians, not physicists. IF Lazar was a physicist at the lab, he would not have been working for the contractor.

The article about his jet car was a puff piece. The idea that the journalist vetted Lazar's claims about being a physicist, is a 2nd hand claim from Corbel. It appears the journalist didn't vet anything Lazar was claiming, including the notion that an old '70s Honda Civic could attain 200+ MPH when boosted by the jet in it's trunk. Or Lazar's straight up false claim that the Gluhariff jet engine was far more efficient than any other design. Or the claims of how much thrust it created. None of it was vetted, including the claim of being a physicist.

Only one actual physicist from LANL even thought Lazar was a physicist, and he never confirmed it. He just felt Lazar looked like a physicist. This was likely due to Corbel's framing the question in a standard UFO false dichotomy. Corbel found one guy, that when he asked him was Lazar more like a physicist or a janitor, leaving out the idea that he was a technician.

Like so much of UFOlogy, when the evidence presented is examined, there's not much there, there. When counter arguments, like Lazar's non-existent school records, his various claims of involvement in prostitution, his bank bankruptcy, his failure to produce the E115 in his kitchen and others are brought up, they are ignored and supporters point back to the phone book, the jet car article and now some blurry dark areas on a photo.

Spend enough time in the Lazar echo chambers and you'll find that his fans expend far more energy creating contrived excuses for his lack of evidence than Bob himself has ever bothered to do.

 

[MonkeeSage]

I was just browsing around various satellite imagery sources and was checking out Sentinel-2 in the Copernicus browser. It's not high enough resolution to be useful here but I was like "why is there a bunker looking label there?"

Source: https://browser.dataspace.copernicu...e3D="MAPZEN"&cloudCoverage=30&dateMode=SINGLE

The Sentinel-2 layer didn't have any icon legend data associated and it turns out the label is coming from the OpenStreetMap basemap. Checking OSM, yep somebody added it because of course they did.

Source: https://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=17/37.113703/-115.838256

So now any downstream products that use OSM for labels are going to show it. Something to be aware of in case people point to some "official government map" that shows it but is just getting it from OSM.

 

[flarkey]

Interesting edit history on that node.

https://www.openstreetmap.org/node/8349849545/history#map=18/37.114520/-115.837489

And particularly the person who created it...

 

[jackfrostvc]

In the latestest Weaponised episode , the director of S4: The Bob Lazar Story said they used the program Davinci Resolve , but was vague on what they fiddled with to create the pic supposedly showing hangars. Dont know if they fiddled with contrast or what.


Does anyone have Davinci Resolve and can use it to analyse the source image below to see if they can reproduce the image they show in the doco supposedly showing hangars?

Source image: drive.google.com/file/d/1FEMZxdz3A7fEAYM8QrFSea9dD6675FDR/view

 

[Mysterious]

If Bob Lazar were a genuine whistleblower, they would have treated him like Snowden. The U.S. military shows zero interest in Bob Lazar.

 

[jarlrmai]

Davinci resolve is a NLE for video it has limited image manipulation features, it seems an odd choice.

There is a free version with limited features and a paid version with more tools, although the free version is pretty well featured for free.

Like with all these things knowing what they actually did is hard to tell.

 

[jarlrmai]

The Nikon raw file is probably better analysed in a forensic image suite

 

[jarlrmai]

The Nikon raw file is probably better analysed in a forensic image suite

 

[Nemon]

Does anyone have Davinci Resolve and can use it to analyse the source image below to see if they can reproduce the image they show in the doco supposedly showing hangars?

As I demonstrated with my version of the image, you can pretty much use any tool at random and get whatever effect you want. What they probably did doesn't seem to require real skills or special tools, and they likely didn't use expert methods either. And they literally said "...play with the contrast ..." https://www.metabunk.org/threads/s4-the-bob-lazar-story-evidence.14825/post-366333

 

[NorCal Dave]

In the latestest Weaponised episode , the director of S4: The Bob Lazar Story said they used the program Davinci Resolve , but was vague on what they fiddled with to create the pic supposedly showing hangars.

So they showed a fuzzy photo again as proof of Lazar's multiple claims? No thought of something like his school records, employment records, either of his 2 Master's projects, an explanation of which brothel he actually owned. No? How about a piece of E115 for study? No? Just another fuzzy photo. I wish my working days had been filled with so much from so little.

 

[jackfrostvc]

This guy posted a short video on Instagram where he says he measured the supposed hangars that are alleged to be in that picture of a hillside near Papoose. He claims they are about 99 feet tall, and concludes they couldn't be hangars it if thats accurate and are likely therfor noise.

Thoughts?
Can this be verified?

https://www.instagram.com/reels/DXLlwM7jgtz/

 

[Ann K]

This guy posted a short video on Instagram where he says he measured the supposed hangars that are alleged to be in that picture of a hillside near Papoose. He claims they are about 99 feet tall, and concludes they couldn't be hangars it if thats accurate and are likely therfor noise.

Thoughts?
Can this be verified?

https://www.instagram.com/reels/DXLlwM7jgtz/

It's obvious that the "lines" (whether real or entirely imaginary) are on a slope, so if these were measured correctly (and we don't know that), the most he could possibly say is that they were 99 feet LONG, which is of course not at all the same thing as being 99 feet TALL.

 

[uapreads]

Been reading through this thread and wanted to add a couple things on the Los Alamos stuff, since that's where a lot of this keeps landing.
The 1982 Los Alamos Monitor piece (Terry England's article, calls him "a physicist at the Los Alamos Meson Physics Facility") is real, and there's a lab phone directory from that era listing a "Lazar Robert" on staff. So something there checks out. But England was asked about his own article decades later and admitted he never fact-checked Lazar's credentials, just ran with what he was told. And when Knapp went to Los Alamos directly, they said no record of him as a physicist. Probably a contractor tech, not an actual LANL physicist — existed and was around the place, sure, job title's a different question.
MIT and Caltech, same story either way, no record, no professor or classmate he's ever been able to name.
The one that actually gets me is Element 115. Moscovium is real now, synthesized in 2003, so naming an undiscovered element in '89 is a genuinely odd detail regardless of what you think of the rest of the story. Where it falls apart is the "stable isotope" part — every version of it anyone's actually made decays in a fraction of a second. So it's less "he was wrong about an element" and more "he named something real, but the one specific property he attached to it is the one that doesn't hold up." That gap between the two is honestly more interesting to me than either the debunk or the "he predicted an element" talking point on their own.
Have the EG&G/USAF denial stuff and his 1990/2007 legal record too if it's useful, didn't want to cram it all into one post.

 

[NorCal Dave]

Probably a contractor tech, not an actual LANL physicist — existed and was around the place, sure, job title's a different question.

Welcome to the forum!

I believe Knapp made a point of saying Lazar's name appeared in a LANL phone directory, but it included the letters "KM" next to his name, indicating he was a contract employee of the Kirk Mayer Company, that provided technicians, not physicists, to the lab. Going one better, the blogger Signalsintelligance claims that in a short video by Corbell, a 1993 letter from LANL responding to Knapp about Lazar's employment can be seen in the background:

From the letter:

Dear George,

In response to your letter of July 23 about Robert Lazar, we have no personnel records on him. Our personnel people tell me that we only archive records of Los Alamos employees, that is, those of us who are employed by the University of California, which manages the lab for the Department of Energy. All personnel records of Mr. Lazar would be held by the contractor, in this case Kirk Mayer. It is not unusual that Los Alamos has no records on Lazar.

Source: https://medium.com/@signalsintelligence/1993-letter-to-george-knapp-from-los-alamos-national-laboratory-3bbb582bc162


If this is true, it means Knapp and Corbell have known since 1993 there is NO record of Lazar being a physicist or employee of the UC.

MIT and Caltech, same story either way, no record, no professor or classmate he's ever been able to name.

Not only are there NO records of any kind, the timeline barely works. Lazar graduated high school in 1976 in the bottom 3rd of his class. Before acquiring advanced degrees from 2 of the hardest to get into technical collages in the country, he would have needed a Bachelor's degree from somewhere. That's typically 4 years which puts it at 1980, but he has admitted to attending Pierce Jr. Collage during this time frame, so his Bachelor's would likely have been sometime after 1980. A Master's is typically 2 years or more. He definitely opened a Photo Processing business in Los Alamos in 1983, so at some point he was running a photo store in New Mexico while doing graduate level collage work in either California or Massachusetts. Just doesn't work.

The one that actually gets me is Element 115. Moscovium is real now, synthesized in 2003, so naming an undiscovered element in '89 is a genuinely odd detail regardless of what you think of the rest of the story."

That gap between the two is honestly more interesting to me than either the debunk or the "he predicted an element" talking point on their own.

That always seemed one of the easier claims to understand. He just looked at the periodic table and picked an as yet synthesized element. In the late '80s the table ended at element 109 Meitnerium which had been created in 1982 and 108 Hassium which had been created in 1984. Lazar just pick something beyond 109 and landed on 115. Possibly he thought it was sufficiently along on the table that it wouldn't be synthesized in his lifetime, so all of his claims about it couldn't be verified.

If he were interviewed today, he may pick Element 123 or something, as the current table goes to 118.