London Woolwich Knife Attack: Conspiracy theories debunked by Infowars

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Oxymoron

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So a single bloke on the telly says something and that makes it a fact?

Who said it was a 'fact'? I said 'it was alleged'... now that's a fact.

The BBC et al are simply transmitting a rumour
They are transmitting an allegation and a pretty important allegation at that.
and we are supposed to have some deeper understanding of what has happened because of it?
We are at least aware of the 'allegation' because of it and this may lead to more information as to whether it is true or not and maybe, (if it is true), to how such a scenario came about.
Of course, people never tell lies to exaggerate their importance, do they?
Seems like wild speculation to me, one that he is lying and two as to a possible reason; so you have an assumption based on an assumption. Good debunking.

Of course some people tell lies, politicians have more of a track record for it than most.
 
J

Joe

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BombDr

Senior Member.
Who said it was a 'fact'? I said 'it was alleged'... now that's a fact.


They are transmitting an allegation and a pretty important allegation at that.

We are at least aware of the 'allegation' because of it and this may lead to more information as to whether it is true or not and maybe, (if it is true), to how such a scenario came about.

Seems like wild speculation to me, one that he is lying and two as to a possible reason; so you have an assumption based on an assumption. Good debunking.

Of course some people tell lies, politicians have more of a track record for it than most.

Apologies if I implied your were calling it a fact, but it has been suggested as such in other media I have read. My point about the BBC was twofold - firstly it became the lead story on the news, thereby elevating the weight of the claim, and secondly I think people should be more cautious accepting 2nd hand claims from people with agendas.

It was less debunking than speculation on my part, but its the same as the number of people in my profession who claim to have been in the SAS - they are trying to make themselves out to me more important than they are, and as the two assailants are attention seekers, they may have been trying to raise their percieved share-prce among their peers by claiming that 'MI5 tried to recruit me'.

For all I know it could be true, I just don't think too much weight should be put on it.
 

Adam

Member
This has now cropped up on Facebook. I don't know much about it. To me, the two guys don't look that much alike, though I suppose they could be the same person. I don't know anything about the circumstances surrounding the two pictures. From what I gather, the poster claims the BBC interviewed this guy at the scene of the event in Woolwich and then he was spotted at an EDL march (not sure where... Woolwich, maybe). The poster is claiming this is 'proof' the media is biased. If it is the same guy, it could be a local who just doesn't like Muslims very much. (Woolwich - and SE London - isn't known as a hotbed of tolerance).

Thoughts?

481559_540682765973492_1347810051_n.jpg

https://www.facebook.com/pages/Diary-Of-A-Badman/169923986382707
 

BombDr

Senior Member.
This has now cropped up on Facebook. I don't know much about it. To me, the two guys don't look that much alike, though I suppose they could be the same person. I don't know anything about the circumstances surrounding the two pictures. From what I gather, the poster claims the BBC interviewed this guy at the scene of the event in Woolwich and then he was spotted at an EDL march (not sure where... Woolwich, maybe). The poster is claiming this is 'proof' the media is biased. If it is the same guy, it could be a local who just doesn't like Muslims very much. (Woolwich - and SE London - isn't known as a hotbed of tolerance).

Thoughts?

481559_540682765973492_1347810051_n.jpg

https://www.facebook.com/pages/Diary-Of-A-Badman/169923986382707

The bottom picture does not look natural - photography experts? However, suggesting the BBC is biased towards the EDL is even more rediculous than the 'false-flag' accusation...
 

Melbury's Brick

Senior Member.
=Oxymoron;45974]
Abu Nusaybah said Michael Adebolajo had rejected approaches from MI5 operatives, but that his friend had denied knowing certain individuals the security service was interested in.
Nusaybah was arrested shortly after making the claims in a Newsnight interview, according to the BBC.
A preliminary report into what the intelligence services knew about the two Woolwich terror attack suspects will be handed over to an inquiry next week, Sir Malcolm Rifkind, chairman of the parliamentary Intelligence and Security Committee

[/EX]

It is amazing how these links between terrorists and CIA/MI5 recruitment/interactions etc keep coming up.

Personally I don't see that a claim made by one individual who says he is a personal friend of Adebolajo, (this has not been verified) and who was then also arrested by counter terrorist officers, constitutes a "link". His assertion was originally posted on Twitter...the bedrock of truth!
 

Oxymoron

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Personally I don't see that a claim made by one individual who says he is a personal friend of Adebolajo, (this has not been verified) and who was then also arrested by counter terrorist officers, constitutes a "link". His assertion was originally posted on Twitter...the bedrock of truth!

You must have missed Joe's post https://www.metabunk.org/posts/46161

Seems pretty conclusive to me and highly relevant.

All it needs now is to find out there was a 'training exercise' for such an event in that area on that day and all the boxes are ticked.
 
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Mick West

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Staff member
You must have missed Joe's post https://www.metabunk.org/posts/46161

Seems pretty conclusive to me and highly relevant.

All it needs now is to find out there was a 'training exercise' for such an event in that area on that day and all the boxes are ticked.

Conclusive of what? It just seems to indicate that he was known to authorities, and that there were warnings the could be violent. Does that equate to evidence of a false flag?
 
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BombDr

Senior Member.
You must have missed Joe's post https://www.metabunk.org/posts/46161

Seems pretty conclusive to me and highly relevant.

All it needs now is to find out there was a 'training exercise' for such an event in that area on that day and all the boxes are ticked.


You are aware that it is the Security Service's job to investigate such things, and even if they did interview him, I fail to see any sinister connection, unless of course you are implying that he is a patsy in a 'false-flag' operation? Please explain how this is conclusive?
 
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JRBids

Senior Member.
You are aware that it is the Security Service's job to investigate such things, and even if they did interview him, I fail to see any sinister connection, unless of course you are implying that he is a patsy in a 'false-flag' operation? Please explain how this is conclusive?

I don't expect any proof that this is conclusive. All "false-flag" accusers do is cast doubt. I have never seen any proof from any of them on any claimed "false flag".
 

Oxymoron

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You are aware that it is the Security Service's job to investigate such things,

Yes I am well aware of that.

Please explain how this is conclusive?

I would say that is pretty conclusive evidence that the allegation that he was arrested in Kenya, which you ridiculed, is true. Likely that it is in fact, a fact.

I would suggest that this 'fact' underpins the allegation that he was tortured and sexually abused to such a degree that it is (from past evidence), highly likely.

I would suggest that it is quite possible that it may have even been at the instigation or with the tacit agreement of MI5. Possibly even that MI5 operatives were present or privy to the information derived from torture. Extraordinary Rendition, ring any bells. Now I am not suggesting that he was renditioned, merely that they could well have capitalised on his whereabouts to allow the torture to happen.
and even if they did interview him, I fail to see any sinister connection, unless of course you are implying that he is a patsy in a 'false-flag' operation?

When people are tortured they tend to become even more radicalised.

What I find disturbing is, that on every major terrorist event, these 'links' with the terrorists and the security services are found. That on every case 'unusual' activity precedes or coincides with the event. The only 'standard link' which is now missing from this case, is evidence of a 'training exercise' taking place at the time and in the area. This has been a key signature and highly suspicious in my view, on all other events since 9/11.

I think the guy had had enough, he had seen the horrors inflicted in the M.E, the invasions, the death and destruction on a massive scale, the biometric cataloging of the citizens by armed occupation forces or their puppet proxy forces set up to do the dirty work and finally he decided to fight back by resorting to a vicious and deadly attack on a random soldier, as a political statement.

I think that whilst it is unlikely that MI5 deliberately instigated it, I think they could have pushed him over the top. The straw on the camels back so to speak.
 

Adam

Member
Yes I am well aware of that.


I think the guy had had enough, he had seen the horrors inflicted in the M.E, the invasions, the death and destruction on a massive scale, the biometric cataloging of the citizens by armed occupation forces or their puppet proxy forces set up to do the dirty work and finally he decided to fight back by resorting to a vicious and deadly attack on a random soldier, as a political statement.

I think you're being incredibly charitable. This guy is British. He's seen very little of anything, yet for some reason feels more affinity for countries he's never been to (Iraq, Afghanistan) than his home country and for a religion he's adopted late in life than the religion he was born into and raised with.

It's weird to hear a guy with a London accent talking to the camera about "your government" etc. etc. And although I could buy the argument that he (as a second-generation immigrant) could still feel somewhat alienated from British society, it's odd in his case as he is alienating himself from his own immigrant community!
 

Oxymoron

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I think you're being incredibly charitable. This guy is British. He's seen very little of anything, yet for some reason feels more affinity for countries he's never been to (Iraq, Afghanistan) than his home country and for a religion he's adopted late in life than the religion he was born into and raised with.

It's weird to hear a guy with a London accent talking to the camera about "your government" etc. etc. And although I could buy the argument that he (as a second-generation immigrant) could still feel somewhat alienated from British society, it's odd in his case as he is alienating himself from his own immigrant community!

I am trying to be pragmatic and understand the likely dynamics of the crime. I condemn it exactly the same as I condemn the atrocities being carried out in our name abroad but this was not comparable to some random mugging or stabbing, (which goes on regularly in London on a daily basis and is therefore hardly newsworthy), it is a political motivated crime. The authorities don't wish to acknowledge it as such because it is counterproductive to their rhetoric that they are making people safe from terrorism when in fact they are radicalising people and creating terrorists by so doing.

That's my opinion for what it's worth.
 

BombDr

Senior Member.
Yes I am well aware of that.



I would say that is pretty conclusive evidence that the allegation that he was arrested in Kenya, which you ridiculed, is true. Likely that it is in fact, a fact.

I would suggest that it is quite possible that it may have even been at the instigation or with the tacit agreement of MI5. Possibly even that MI5 operatives were present or privy to the information derived from torture. Extraordinary Rendition, ring any bells. Now I am not suggesting that he was renditioned, merely that they could well have capitalised on his whereabouts to allow the torture to happen.

More speculation based on....?

I think that whilst it is unlikely that MI5 deliberately instigated it, I think they could have pushed him over the top. The straw on the camels back so to speak.

I don't recall mentioning Kenya, but happy for you to prove otherwise.

"I would suggest that this 'fact' underpins the allegation that he was tortured and sexually abused to such a degree that it is (from past evidence), highly likely."

Speculation on your part.

"I would suggest that it is quite possible that it may have even been at the instigation or with the tacit agreement of MI5. Possibly even that MI5 operatives were present or privy to the information derived from torture. Extraordinary Rendition, ring any bells. Now I am not suggesting that he was renditioned, merely that they could well have capitalised on his whereabouts to allow the torture to happen."

More speculation based on....?

What I find disturbing is, that on every major terrorist event, these 'links' with the terrorists and the security services are found. That on every case 'unusual' activity precedes or coincides with the event. The only 'standard link' which is now missing from this case, is evidence of a 'training exercise' taking place at the time and in the area. This has been a key signature and highly suspicious in my view, on all other events since 9/11.

He was a radical, who hung around with Choudry and seemingly did everything possible to get himself noticed. I'm not surprised he was known to the Security Service. I'm not sure where your suspicious 'link' is though. I'm also struggling with your 'training exercise' concern. Organisations that deal with security need to train, unless you are suggesting that they should not? I imagine training is carried out daily, and could occur on the same days as terror events. I'm sat in Kandahr Airfield right now, and some people here are training for something - I don't see a link between their training and an event happening, so please do explin where my thinking is defective.

"I think the guy had had enough, he had seen the horrors inflicted in the M.E, the invasions, the death and destruction on a massive scale, the biometric cataloging of the citizens by armed occupation forces or their puppet proxy forces set up to do the dirty work and finally he decided to fight back by resorting to a vicious and deadly attack on a random soldier, as a political statement."

Again, Im on my forth tour of Afghaistan. The biometric data is a retina scan and fingerprint and takes less than 30 seconds... very oppressive. Has this chap been to the Middle East? Could you give me your working definition of a political statement please, as beheading would not be on my list.

"I think that whilst it is unlikely that MI5 deliberately instigated it, I think they could have pushed him over the top. The straw on the camels back so to speak."

So even indirectly and without any evidence other than a single guy telling the BBC that he was told MI5 tried to recruit him, you have concluded that it was MI5's fault...? How many leaps of imagination have you done in so few paragraphs?
 

Adam

Member
I am trying to be pragmatic and understand the likely dynamics of the crime. I condemn it exactly the same as I condemn the atrocities being carried out in our name abroad but this was not comparable to some random mugging or stabbing, (which goes on regularly in London on a daily basis and is therefore hardly newsworthy), it is a political motivated crime. The authorities don't wish to acknowledge it as such because it is counterproductive to their rhetoric that they are making people safe from terrorism when in fact they are radicalising people and creating terrorists by so doing.

That's my opinion for what it's worth.

Well, I think that's a bit inaccurate inasmuch as the government has come out and referred to it as terrorism and have highlighted the Islamist angle - which is far more than they have done for the murder of Mohammed Saleem in Birmingham on 29 April - even though his killer was a white male, aged in his 20s-30s. There is a very high possibility the murder of Saleem was racially motivated and if the killer has ties to the BNP or EDL, then it is basically terrorism.

The government and the press have been very open over here regarding the motivations of the Woolwich killers. I don't know if you live here, but if you do, I'm surprised you don't agree.
 

Oxymoron

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Well, I think that's a bit inaccurate inasmuch as the government has come out and referred to it as terrorism and have highlighted the Islamist angle -

They can't really do anything else but acknowledge it. But notice how it is played down in Cameron's speech. It's mostly about portraying it as 'just a couple of extremists acting without any justification at all'. He then insists on what a marvelous job the Security Services are doing in protecting us. He doesn't want to acknowledge that our foreign policy is building hatred against us and is a very significant factor in such events. Terrorism is only mentioned a couple of times. It is far different to the usual rhetoric about 'The War On Terror'.



which is far more than they have done for the murder of Mohammed Saleem in Birmingham on 29 April - even though his killer was a white male, aged in his 20s-30s. There is a very high possibility the murder of Saleem was racially motivated and if the killer has ties to the BNP or EDL, then it is basically terrorism.

I agree but it is not politic to admit it.

The government and the press have been very open over here regarding the motivations of the Woolwich killers. I don't know if you live here, but if you do, I'm surprised you don't agree.

I think the press have been very open on it but the authorities are trying to minimise their contribution to radicalising people.

As expected, the 'snoopers charter' is straight back on the table. This affects all of us and is grossly invasive. I do not want to live in a society where peoples privacy and rights are not respected. If that happens the terrorists have won.

I live in the U.K and lived in London for over a decade. It has changed a lot to when I lived there. Central London looked absolutely magnificent when I visited a couple of years ago but the outer areas appear to have gone downhill a lot, even though some areas where pretty bad when I was there. My niece lives on the 'murder mile' in the East End so I know quite a bit about that area and the knife crime that goes on there.
 

David Fraser

Senior Member.
I think you're being incredibly charitable. This guy is British. He's seen very little of anything, yet for some reason feels more affinity for countries he's never been to (Iraq, Afghanistan) than his home country and for a religion he's adopted late in life than the religion he was born into and raised with.

It's weird to hear a guy with a London accent talking to the camera about "your government" etc. etc. And although I could buy the argument that he (as a second-generation immigrant) could still feel somewhat alienated from British society, it's odd in his case as he is alienating himself from his own immigrant community!

I don't find it odd at all. There are many young men that become disenfranchised from society. From that detatchment they are vunerable to radicalisation against that society. That can take many forms and becoming involved with militants does not take a stretch of the imagination. As I understand it they used to recruit openly at one time even around the University campuses in Manchester until banned. I met a few blokes from Bradford when I was in Bosnia. Idealism can take us to strange places.

I think we are going to see a great deal if conjecture over the coming weeks, especially with their behaviour. Was there a mental illness involved? Did they want their 15 minutes? Was the whole premise of hanging around so they could have death by cop? Was it all just an unplanned impromptu attack (they have happened in the past). Are they plain twats?

As to the torture in Kenya and MI5 involvement I have an opened mind but nothing would surprise me. Kenya have a piss poor record on human rights, especially in the judicial system. The UK security services would surely do all they could to gather information so approaching the lad seems reasonable.
 

Adam

Member
I don't find it odd at all. There are many young men that become disenfranchised from society. From that detatchment they are vunerable to radicalisation against that society. That can take many forms and becoming involved with militants does not take a stretch of the imagination. As I understand it they used to recruit openly at one time even around the University campuses in Manchester until banned. I met a few blokes from Bradford when I was in Bosnia. Idealism can take us to strange places.

I think we are going to see a great deal if conjecture over the coming weeks, especially with their behaviour. Was there a mental illness involved? Did they want their 15 minutes? Was the whole premise of hanging around so they could have death by cop? Was it all just an unplanned impromptu attack (they have happened in the past). Are they plain twats?

As to the torture in Kenya and MI5 involvement I have an opened mind but nothing would surprise me. Kenya have a piss poor record on human rights, especially in the judicial system. The UK security services would surely do all they could to gather information so approaching the lad seems reasonable.

I guess it seems odd to me that when the guy apparently felt alienated from larger British society he didn't retreat further into his Nigerian community, but rather found a different (completely alien one) to attach himself to. But nothing should surprise me, I guess.

I don't think it odd that MI5 approached him to see if he would cooperate with them (if that is even remotely true). And if he was on their radar for a while, it also comes as little surprise to me that he may have been questioned by other security services.

There is just so much conjecture. One thing that seems pretty plain is that this was a very unsophisticated attack.
 

David Fraser

Senior Member.
Given that Nigeria is roughly a 50/50 mix of Christian to Muslim not that alien. This is pure conjecture but Nigeria and the Nigerian community has a reputation for being deeply religious and superstitious. Stories are rife over ritual killings and witch hunts, mostly by Christians. It nay be that they had issue with such a community. As I say that is pure speculation. Forensic psychologists are going to wring their hands for years to come looking for possible triggers and key events.
 

Melbury's Brick

Senior Member.
[Oxymoron;46228]You must have missed Joe's post https://www.metabunk.org/posts/46161


Oxymoron;45974]
Abu Nusaybah said Michael Adebolajo had rejected approaches from MI5 operatives, but that his friend had denied knowing certain individuals the security service was interested in.

At what point in Joe's post does it confirm that MI5 attempted to recruit Adebolajo......as claimed by Abu Nusaybah? Until this is confirmed it remains speculation fired originally by a "tweet" from an individual, who, if he is connected quite probably has an agenda.
 
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Oxymoron

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I don't recall mentioning Kenya, but happy for you to prove otherwise.

If you insist. :) You dismissed the allegations made on the BBC, (which included that he was arrested in Kenya) as of no weight and unhelpful (paraphrasing here). Joe's post showed that allegation was true.

"I would suggest that this 'fact' underpins the allegation that he was tortured and sexually abused to such a degree that it is (from past evidence), highly likely."

Speculation on your part.

That is not speculation, it is a fact that it underpins and adds wait to the allegation of torture. I did not say it proved torture, I said it underpins the allegation which is totally different.

"I would suggest that it is quite possible that it may have even been at the instigation or with the tacit agreement of MI5. Possibly even that MI5 operatives were present or privy to the information derived from torture. Extraordinary Rendition, ring any bells. Now I am not suggesting that he was renditioned, merely that they could well have capitalised on his whereabouts to allow the torture to happen."

More speculation based on....?

That is speculation and it is stated as speculation by the use of the phrase "I would suggest that it is quite possible".

"What I find disturbing is, that on every major terrorist event, these 'links' with the terrorists and the security services are found. That on every case 'unusual' activity precedes or coincides with the event. The only 'standard link' which is now missing from this case, is evidence of a 'training exercise' taking place at the time and in the area. This has been a key signature and highly suspicious in my view, on all other events since 9/11".

He was a radical, who hung around with Choudry and seemingly did everything possible to get himself noticed. I'm not surprised he was known to the Security Service. I'm not sure where your suspicious 'link' is though. I'm also struggling with your 'training exercise' concern. Organisations that deal with security need to train, unless you are suggesting that they should not? I imagine training is carried out daily, and could occur on the same days as terror events. I'm sat in Kandahr Airfield right now, and some people here are training for something - I don't see a link between their training and an event happening, so please do explin where my thinking is defective.

Training exercises do not go on every day everywhere. Many people find it suspicious that a massive excercise involving aircraft flying into buildings in NY and Washington were happening on the very day that it happened. Similarly the London 7/7 bombings reflected exactly that event at the same stations on the same day. Same with the Boston Bombing etc.

"I think the guy had had enough, he had seen the horrors inflicted in the M.E, the invasions, the death and destruction on a massive scale, the biometric cataloging of the citizens by armed occupation forces or their puppet proxy forces set up to do the dirty work and finally he decided to fight back by resorting to a vicious and deadly attack on a random soldier, as a political statement."

Again, Im on my forth tour of Afghaistan. The biometric data is a retina scan and fingerprint and takes less than 30 seconds... very oppressive. Has this chap been to the Middle East? Could you give me your working definition of a political statement please, as beheading would not be on my list.

And how would you feel if another Country invaded your Country and forced people to have retina scans and fingerprints taken against their will? It is also the forced taking of DNA swabs as well.

It may only take a short while but the effects are permanent and enable people to be tracked or targeted by drones and possibly even from space.

Where does it stop? Cavity searches only take a few minutes so what's the problem? It only takes 20 mins to search your house so what's the problem?

Politics is everything. It covers everything from whether your library stays open or you get your bins emptied every week to whether your Country goes to war or whether you are shot for daring to speak out against something. There are various levels of political action from writing to a newspaper, voting etc to violent acts including killing someone. And BTW, simply for accuracy... they did not behead him although it is splashed all over the media that they did. They lead with that lurid title but always draw back from it in the text.

"I think that whilst it is unlikely that MI5 deliberately instigated it, I think they could have pushed him over the top. The straw on the camels back so to speak."

So even indirectly and without any evidence other than a single guy telling the BBC that he was told MI5 tried to recruit him, you have concluded that it was MI5's fault...? How many leaps of imagination have you done in so few paragraphs?

Without any evidence?... The security services are well known for this. Their involvement with other terrorists right from Bin Laden himself down to all the 9/11 hijackers and the Boston Bombers as well as many others is 'evidence' that it is an entirely plausible although as yet unproven allegation. Time will tell.
 

Adam

Member
Given that Nigeria is roughly a 50/50 mix of Christian to Muslim not that alien. This is pure conjecture but Nigeria and the Nigerian community has a reputation for being deeply religious and superstitious. Stories are rife over ritual killings and witch hunts, mostly by Christians. It nay be that they had issue with such a community. As I say that is pure speculation. Forensic psychologists are going to wring their hands for years to come looking for possible triggers and key events.

Well, he is Yoruba which makes him Christian. I think that is more his community. Muslim to him would be just as alien as it would be to me - it's not my community, even though I live amongst Muslims. Heck, I was raised in the Catholic community and would consider Protestantism to be pretty alien. But I think embracing and identifying with jihadism and Iraq and Afghanistan is crazy. Used to be that disaffected youth joined gangs or became left wing revolutionaries. I guess this is no different than "shoe bomber" Richard Reid or "American Taliban" John Walker Lindh, but it just seems a strange jump to me, that's all.
 

Cairenn

Senior Member.
Now please explain how fingerprints and retinal scans can lead to folks being 'tracked' ? Back to the non existent RFID chip now? The one that hasn't been invented yet.
 

BombDr

Senior Member.
If you insist. :) You dismissed the allegations made on the BBC, (which included that he was arrested in Kenya) as of no weight and unhelpful (paraphrasing here). Joe's post showed that allegation was true.

Firsty I did not dismiss them, I merely pointed out that it was a single, unconfirmed claim that MI5 had attempted to recruiting him. I made to claim at all about whther he was arrested in Kenya or not.


That is not speculation, it is a fact that it underpins and adds wait to the allegation of torture. I did not say it proved torture, I said it underpins the allegation which is totally different.


That is speculation and it is stated as speculation by the use of the phrase "I would suggest that it is quite possible".

It is also quite possible he was given a nice cup of tea.


Training exercises do not go on every day everywhere. Many people find it suspicious that a massive excercise involving aircraft flying into buildings in NY and Washington were happening on the very day that it happened. Similarly the London 7/7 bombings reflected exactly that event at the same stations on the same day. Same with the Boston Bombing etc.
The exercise on 911 was an exercise involving hijacking. Please point out where it involved anything flying into buildings. "Massive military exercise" was simulation, which is not massive. Peter Power ran a training company, that does - training. Attacks on the tube are hardly unprecedented and were not connected to the government and in any case he was traing 4 people.

And how would you feel if another Country invaded your Country and forced people to have retina scans and fingerprints taken against their will? It is also the forced taking of DNA swabs as well.

It may only take a short while but the effects are permanent and enable people to be tracked or targeted by drones and possibly even from space.

So what? It is painless and please explain how do you 'track' someone with a retina scan and mouth swab, with a UAV?

Where does it stop? Cavity searches only take a few minutes so what's the problem? It only takes 20 mins to search your house so what's the problem?

Who is doing cavity searches?

Politics is everything. It covers everything from whether your library stays open or you get your bins emptied every week to whether your Country goes to war or whether you are shot for daring to speak out against something. There are various levels of political action from writing to a newspaper, voting etc to violent acts including killing someone. And BTW, simply for accuracy... they did not behead him although it is splashed all over the media that they did. They lead with that lurid title but always draw back from it in the text.

Im not sure how good or poor reporting about the success or failure of the beheading makes it relevant.

Without any evidence?... The security services are well known for this. Their involvement with other terrorists right from Bin Laden himself down to all the 9/11 hijackers and the Boston Bombers as well as many others is 'evidence' that it is an entirely plausible although as yet unproven allegation. Time will tell.

Please tell me on a single example of the British Intelligence services instigating a terror event.
 

Oxymoron

Banned
Banned
And how would you feel if another Country invaded your Country and forced people to have retina scans and fingerprints taken against their will? It is also the forced taking of DNA swabs as well.

It may only take a short while but the effects are permanent and enable people to be tracked or targeted by drones and possibly even from space.

So your answer to "how would you feel if another Country invaded your Country and forced people to have retina scans and fingerprints taken against their will?" is:

So what? It is painless and please explain how do you 'track' someone with a retina scan and mouth swab, with a UAV?

I hope there are not too many people who think like that if we ever do get invaded or if our government decides 'it's the way to go'.

Re biometric data use:

http://blog.thomsonreuters.com/index.php/the-many-faces-of-facial-recognition/

http://scienceillustrated.com.au/bl...cameras-could-be-used-for-facial-recognition/

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1267278/New-speed-cameras-trap-motorists-space-trial-UK.html

 

BombDr

Senior Member.
So your answer to "how would you feel if another Country invaded your Country and forced people to have retina scans and fingerprints taken against their will?" is:



I hope there are not too many people who think like that if we ever do get invaded or if our government decides 'it's the way to go'.

Iv had my DNA, fingerprints and retina scanned already. DNA and fingerprints to eliminate me as I work with explosives. The same biometric enrollment in Afghanistan also eliminates the innocent from further investigation.

The retina scan was from when the fast-track airport lane was in UK airports, sinse been overtaken by chipped passport lanes. I do not fear these things as Im not a criminal.

You still have not explained how Afghans are tracked by this...
 

Oxymoron

Banned
Banned
Iv had my DNA, fingerprints and retina scanned already. DNA and fingerprints to eliminate me as I work with explosives. The same biometric enrollment in Afghanistan also eliminates the innocent from further investigation.

The retina scan was from when the fast-track airport lane was in UK airports, sinse been overtaken by chipped passport lanes. I do not fear these things as Im not a criminal.

You still have not explained how Afghans are tracked by this...

I added some links.

Most people do not like it. Some say 'I have nothing to fear because I am innocent so do what you need to do'. Most people do not subscribe to that outlook.
 

BombDr

Senior Member.
Is Afghanistan the guinea pig, switching suddenly from no national documentation to high-tech biometric identification? Is this runaway technology actually the future of personal identity?

I don't know and apparently neither does the author - your point?

Using a device attached to an iPhone, law enforcers will be able to take a picture of someone’s face from up to five feet away, and then run the image through a database of pictures collected from correctional facilities, and in some cases, mug shots. Proposed improvements hope to one day allow the device to access pictures from FBI registries and even driver’s license photos. Google at one point considered but eventually rejected the idea of incorporating facial recognition into its mobile phones, fearing that the technology would be an invasion of privacy. Brockton, Massachusetts chief of police William Conlon, though, is less concerned. He argues, “It is just a picture,” and feels that most people who “don’t have anything to hide” will willingly comply.

Correct me if I am wrong but this is speculation about what is possible? It is also possible to imprison everyone in the US pre-emptively to prevent crime and keep tabs on them, but is anyone actually proposing doing that?

http://scienceillustrated.com.au/bl...cameras-could-be-used-for-facial-recognition/

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1267278/New-speed-cameras-trap-motorists-space-trial-UK.html


As the owner of a Porsche, I am no fan of speed cameras, but you have gone from biometic scanning in Afghanistan to British Speed cameras cathcing speeders in one jump, and I might be a bit slow, but I dont see your point. Possible technology does not automatically mean definite employment of it. It is possible to electronically tag people suspected of terrorist sympathies or radical motivations now, not in some dystopian future, but we dont do that.

In any case, are you suggesting the Woolwich suspects were biometrically enrolled in Afghanistan against their will, or even gave a stuff either way? Otherwise, Im unsure of your interest in biometrics and its relevance.
 

BombDr

Senior Member.
I added some links.

Most people do not like it. Some say 'I have nothing to fear because I am innocent so do what you need to do'. Most people do not subscribe to that outlook.

You asked me what I thought, I told you.... Your point is?
 

JRBids

Senior Member.
I added some links.

Most people do not like it. Some say 'I have nothing to fear because I am innocent so do what you need to do'. Most people do not subscribe to that outlook.


Why, what have they done that is wrong?
 

Oxymoron

Banned
Banned
Is Afghanistan the guinea pig, switching suddenly from no national documentation to high-tech biometric identification? Is this runaway technology actually the future of personal identity?

I don't know and apparently neither does the author - your point?



Correct me if I am wrong but this is speculation about what is possible? It is also possible to imprison everyone in the US pre-emptively to prevent crime and keep tabs on them, but is anyone actually proposing doing that?



As the owner of a Porsche, I am no fan of speed cameras, but you have gone from biometic scanning in Afghanistan to British Speed cameras cathcing speeders in one jump, and I might be a bit slow, but I dont see your point. Possible technology does not automatically mean definite employment of it. It is possible to electronically tag people suspected of terrorist sympathies or radical motivations now, not in some dystopian future, but we dont do that.

In any case, are you suggesting the Woolwich suspects were biometrically enrolled in Afghanistan against their will, or even gave a stuff either way? Otherwise, Im unsure of your interest in biometrics and its relevance.

The point of my posts are that the technology is available for facial recognition, even in home tv sets etc, that it is being used by the military in the ME on a massive scale is also not in doubt.

I asked how you would feel if a foreign power invaded your home Country and carried out this type of operation. You repeatedly avoid answering.

If it is not for 'tracking' and 'identification', which connotes targeting, what is it for. Are you suggesting they are doing it for no reason. I think not.

You seem very blasé about what governments can do if they so wish to the population of their Country. Anything they say is ok with you is it?

Let us know where you stand on the subject for clarity.
 

Oxymoron

Banned
Banned
Why, what have they done that is wrong?

Who knows... perhaps they didn't jump quick enough or high enough when ordered to.

Banksters have nothing to worry about because they are too big to jail, but the ordinary guy... well now that's a different story isn't it.

Who knows, one day you may wake up to find you did something 'wrong' lol... that'll be a shock for you won't it?

Just out of interest... do you see anything wrong in this guy being jailed or do you think it's ok?

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...hday-greeting-Facebook-gagged-naming-him.html
 

BombDr

Senior Member.
'quote]The point of my posts are that the technology is available for facial recognition, even in home tv sets etc, that it is being used by the military in the ME on a massive scale is also not in doubt. [/quote]

I doubt it and Im sat here, secondly, where is this TV camera? Who is forcing you to by a TV?

I asked how you would feel if a foreign power invaded your home Country and carried out this type of operation. You repeatedly avoid answering.

How would I feel if I was under control of the Taliban and the US, Brits, Canadians and Aussies turned up? Liberated perhaps? Saddam Hussein - probably the same? How would I feel about retina scan, fingerprints and DNA? Probably indiffernt as Im not in the Taliban and I don't build bombs. Is my answer comprehensive enough?

While we are at it, could you tell me the harm caused by the biometrics?

If it is not for 'tracking' and 'identification', which connotes targeting, what is it for. Are you suggesting they are doing it for no reason. I think not.

Tracking - please explain.
It is used for evidence and intelligence. If the same guy leaves his DNA on equipment used in insurgent attacks, he can be convicted in a court, through a judicial process. If he is registered, we can then identify him. I still fail to see where the problem is?

You seem very blasé about what governments can do if they so wish to the population of their Country. Anything they say is ok with you is it?

Let us know where you stand on the subject for clarity.

No, you are being deliberately obtuse now. You posted some examples or possible technology, but no actual evidece of intent to use it. In the UK we cannot even deport one radical nutcase who incites hatred and violence, but you are imagining face scans on every corner. Certain places in the UK have number plate recognition, but I dont care as I pay my road tax and have insurance. I dont use my car in the commission of a crime. None of your Orwellian fears remove the need for judicial process.

If you have any evidence that something underhand is going on, let me know, otherwise your point is misplaced...
 

Oxymoron

Banned
Banned
'
I doubt it and Im sat here, secondly, where is this TV camera? Who is forcing you to by a TV?



How would I feel if I was under control of the Taliban and the US, Brits, Canadians and Aussies turned up? Liberated perhaps? Saddam Hussein - probably the same? How would I feel about retina scan, fingerprints and DNA? Probably indiffernt as Im not in the Taliban and I don't build bombs. Is my answer comprehensive enough?

While we are at it, could you tell me the harm caused by the biometrics?



Tracking - please explain.
It is used for evidence and intelligence. If the same guy leaves his DNA on equipment used in insurgent attacks, he can be convicted in a court, through a judicial process. If he is registered, we can then identify him. I still fail to see where the problem is?



No, you are being deliberately obtuse now. You posted some examples or possible technology, but no actual evidece of intent to use it. In the UK we cannot even deport one radical nutcase who incites hatred and violence, but you are imagining face scans on every corner. Certain places in the UK have number plate recognition, but I dont care as I pay my road tax and have insurance. I dont use my car in the commission of a crime. None of your Orwellian fears remove the need for judicial process.

If you have any evidence that something underhand is going on, let me know, otherwise your point is misplaced...

If anyone is being deliberately obtuse it is you.

The technology exists. It is being used. For every terrorist killed by a drone, 10 innocent civilians are killed. These are facts. You know it and I know it so why be so deliberately obtuse?

The question was 'how you would feel if your Country was invaded', and you respond with 'If I was a this or that'... how obtuse can you get? But more to the point, who do you think you are fooling?
 

BombDr

Senior Member.
If anyone is being deliberately obtuse it is you.

The technology exists. It is being used. For every terrorist killed by a drone, 10 innocent civilians are killed. These are facts. You know it and I know it so why be so deliberately obtuse?

The question was 'how you would feel if your Country was invaded', and you respond with 'If I was a this or that'... how obtuse can you get? But more to the point, who do you think you are fooling?

You asked me how I would feel, presumably as an Iraqi or Afghan and I told you.

Please show me your spy-tv.

The UAVs are maninly used in Pakistan, and there is no biometric enrollment there. The biometrics cannot in any way 'track' people unless you can show different.
 

Oxymoron

Banned
Banned
You asked me how I would feel, presumably as an Iraqi or Afghan and I told you.

Please show me your spy-tv.

The UAVs are maninly used in Pakistan, and there is no biometric enrollment there. The biometrics cannot in any way 'track' people unless you can show different.

I asked how you would feel if a foreign power invaded your home Country and carried out this type of operation. You repeatedly avoid answering.

No where do I mention or infer, 'if you were this or that'. It is a straight forward and completely unambiguous question which you have repeatedly failed to answer.
 

BombDr

Senior Member.
I asked how you would feel if a foreign power invaded your home Country and carried out this type of operation. You repeatedly avoid answering.

No where do I mention or infer, 'if you were this or that'. It is a straight forward and completely unambiguous question which you have repeatedly failed to answer.


If the Uk was invaded I would fight them, after all that is what I am employed to to. I assumed your question was in the context of Iraq and Afghanistan. I would also fight any intelligence gathering.

But the Uk is not Iraq, nor Afghanistan, so the question is irrelevant.
 

BombDr

Senior Member.
I asked how you would feel if a foreign power invaded your home Country and carried out this type of operation. You repeatedly avoid answering.

No where do I mention or infer, 'if you were this or that'. It is a straight forward and completely unambiguous question which you have repeatedly failed to answer.


I would slo still like to hear about this TV with a spy camera in it...
 
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