lack of a Pentagon boeing video

George B

Extinct but not forgotten Staff Member
No. You should recognize that you can always make questions about anything. What about the robot cats?

Instead of wishing for something that is not going to happen (full access to all CIA and FBI databases), why not try making a case with the evidence you have.

It's a sign of a failed argument that people have to resort to "well maybe there's something we don't know, and since they won't tell us, then that proves it!"

The physical evidence indicates a plane hit the pentagon. The wing impacts and the column damage prove it was not a missile. So the evidence just becomes "there MUST have been more video that showed something".
Hmmmm . . . you insist that the plane issue is all that is in questioned here . . . it is not . . . common sense indicates there is more information available . . . the Commissioners have all but said the same thing . . . those of us do not think a full and open disclosure has been made . . . therefore, why should we accept the OS at any level . . . They have zero credibility to me and many others . . .
 

George B

Extinct but not forgotten Staff Member
You are right, cameras were, at the time, probably pointed at the highest threat. Before 9/11 no one imagined a plane being used like a missile. The highest threat was probably vehicles and pedestrians. Vehicles and pedestrians are not in the sky are they? So cameras were probably all pointed towards the ground in an attempt to capture a face or license plate. Just like the camera at the security gate was pointed to capture a drivers face as they came and/or went.

I haven't read or watched as much about 9/11 so forgive me if this video has ever been posted before but at 11:10 in the video he talks about the Pentagon. I love the 'heavens opening up' music when he actually shows the plane hitting the Pentagon!
And where did the plane hit the Pentagon? Hmmmm. . . almost at ground level . . . or am I mistaken?
 

Landru

Moderator
Staff member
Eyewitness accounts of plane.

http://whatreallyhappened.com/WRHARTICLES/911_pentagon_eyewitnesses.html

 

Soulfly

Banned
Banned
These cameras were to capture people walking on the Pentagon grounds. Cameras tracking vehicles would be near roads or parking lots to capture vehicles. I don't know about camera technology before 9/11 and if they were movable cameras able to track the movements of cars and people or just stationary. You don't track people and cars from distant cameras, you use the closest cam and switch to the next closest as the target moves.
ats48924_062a_COMP.jpg
By using the closest cam all the time the cam is more likely to be pointed towards the ground more and not out into the distance. So cameras on the side of the pentagon would be more likely to be pointed down and not out onto the horizon.
 

BombDr

Senior Member.
An American Airlines plane was missing.
Something crashed into the Pentagon.
Parts of the plane that was missing were found inside the Pentagon.
Passengers from the plane were found inside the Pentagon.
Witnesses describe seeing an American Airlines plane crashing into the Pentagon.

Does none of this matter without a video of it happening?
 

hiper

Active Member
Why do you feel you have the right to it?

Yeah I know it's heresy & blasphemy to question the government.

So the 9/11 truth movement is NEVER going to stop. No matter what.

There are obvious holes in the official explanation & the investigatory behaviour of NIST.

You seem to think you speak for the majority Mick... this is probably a miscalculation on your part.
You also seem to think you somehow have the moral high ground here... this is most certainly a miscalculation on your part.

Let's listen to the head of the administration which has given us the official explanation of 9/11 which you so diligently defend...



100 000's dead due to his invasions based on the WMD lie... 1000's of US soldiers dead...

You have no problem defending the explanation given by these types of people...

These are the types of people I would not believe a single word from.
 

Mick West

Administrator
Staff member
You seem to think you speak for the majority Mick... this is probably a miscalculation on your part.
You also seem to think you somehow have the moral high ground here... this is most certainly a miscalculation on your part.

If I seem either of those things then I'm doing a poor job communicating, because that's neither my feeling, nor the intent of what I am trying to convey.

Speaking of the majority of the population is only useful when talking about ice-cream flavors. A majority of people believe in angles. That says nothing about angels.

When I talk about free-fall, or buckling, I'm certainly not talking for the majority, as most people don't even really understand those concepts.

As for the moral high ground - my goal is accuracy, science, and the removal of bunk. This is issue neutral. It's not directly a moral issue, but I certainly consider it better than the opposite.

Debunking is not about arguing for a particular point of view. I'm really not trying to construct an argument that 9/11 was or was not an inside job. I'm trying to debunk individual claims of evidence if I see that those claims are wrong. Who makes those claims is immaterial.
 

hiper

Active Member
Don't hide behind 'accuracy' & 'pseudo-science' & 'removal of bunk' & 'neutrality'... Take a good hard look at the video above because that's the types of people where the real bunk comes from.
 

Mick West

Administrator
Staff member
Don't hide behind 'accuracy' & 'pseudo-science' & 'removal of bunk'

I'm not hiding behind them.

I'm promoting them.

They are the actual goals here.

And I think the justification for the war in Iraq was pathetic. I'm not defending that in any way.

But it does not follow then that WTC1,2&7 were destroyed by controlled demolition.
 

hiper

Active Member
But it does not follow then that WTC1,2&7 were destroyed by controlled demolition.

He is laughing with 100 000's of people including American's who died as a direct result of his policy actions.
He was the head of the administration that gave people the official explanation of the 9/11 events.. an explanation that lo and behold smells to high heaven.
 

Mick West

Administrator
Staff member
He is laughing with 100 000's of people including American's who died as a direct result of his policy actions.
He was the head of the administration that gave people the official explanation of the 9/11 events.. an explanation that lo and behold smells to high heaven.

How does this mean that it was controlled demolition and not fires that caused the collapse?
 

hiper

Active Member
How does this mean that it was controlled demolition and not fires that caused the collapse?

A person that is laughing with 100 000's dead and who is telling me that fire caused a total collapse of a steel high rise... of course I won't believe him/her.
 

Mick West

Administrator
Staff member
A person that is laughing with 100 000's dead and who is telling me that fire caused a total collapse of a steel high rise... of course I won't believe him/her.

So you are forced to believe the opposite of everything he says?

This is not good reasoning. Bush has said millions of things, and many of them are demonstrably true.

So how do you determine what is true and what is not true. Especially when what he says is backed up by science.
 

hiper

Active Member
So how do you determine what is true and what is not true. Especially when what he says is backed up by science.

A person who laughs with 100 000's dead and who is backed up by an institution that ignores investigating the physical evidence...
I classify these people and their conclusions as untrustworthy... but that's me.
 

Mick West

Administrator
Staff member
A person who laughs with 100 000's dead and who is backed up by an institution that ignores investigating the physical evidence...
I classify these people and their conclusions as untrustworthy... but that's me.

Yes, but how do you know if a particular claim they make is untrue?

Particularly when they are not the only person making the claim.

Why do you not trust me?

Why do you not trust Popular Mechanics?

Why do you trust Richard Gage?

Why do you trust Alex Jones?
 

BombDr

Senior Member.
A person who laughs with 100 000's dead and who is backed up by an institution that ignores investigating the physical evidence...
I classify these people and their conclusions as untrustworthy... but that's me.

Hiper, your responses and conclusions are always emotive. You disbelieve things based on your opinion of how you think they should be, and not on a point of fact. It matters not that Bush is an inarticulate dolt, his erudition is not the matter at hand.
 

Brainiachick

Active Member
Originally Posted by BombDr
Flippancy aside, obviously the people are taxpayers and its soldiers are citizens, but my question is why should the government, which controls a lot of information that is classified feel the need to satisfy conspiracy theorists? The British government tried that and it does not satisfy them, it just makes them more suspicious.

Similarly, why does the reasoning have to be malevolent? The options in this case are:

1. The video will show something other than a plane hitting the Pentagon.
2. The video will show a plane hitting the Pentagon
3. The video will show nothing.

Why does it have to be option 1 in the conspiracy world?

Also, is there any evidence of any extra, but unreleased video in existance?




To me it doesn't matter whether it is 1, 2 or 3 . . . the US public and the world has a right to know . . . we have all suffered from this event . . . we all should share in the Truth . ..

It is true that we have all suffered from this event, but sadly, that does not automatically equate to right of access to information. Look at it this way; if the information in these tapes are classified, they are automatically the properties of the US Government, so you really do not have a right of access to them under the law. However for non-classified matters, you can have a wide range of degree of access to the information under the FOI Act. However you will note that under this Act, there are various deliberate clauses to ensure that your right of access does not compromise or breach someone else's rights or the best interest of the country. Under the Data Protection Act, there are far less such restrictive clauses as in FOI Act, with the exception of third party information being enmeshed with your record. In these instances, the Data Controller can either apply redaction of that aspect of the document before disclosure to you or simply exercise their right of refusal to disclose that portion of the information to you under the exclusion that it breaches someone else's privacy. This Act offers you absolutely no right whatsoever with regards to the Pentagon images because they do not personally concern you. Since you are not a Data Subject, you have no right of access to this information. So I am struggling to come up with any credible Act or law upon which you or anyone else may have a claim to this information in a way that actually satisfies you and I can't think of any. I know it sounds harsh, but that is the law. Trauma or suffering offers you or me no extra rights whatsoever.

The second interesting aspect is that they may be refusing to disclose this information quite possibly due to the fact that it does not exist and the immense embarrassment and open-season-for-terror-attack effect option 3 above might have if that is indeed the applicable scenario. In other words, we generally expect this building to have the highest level of security but sadly for reasons proffered in various earlier posts, the cameras may not have been pointed upwards to the sky and therefore did not record or capture the much needed evidence of the exact point of impact. This is a very plausible possibility in my humble view - every perimeter in my home is covered with CCTV but I can assure you that there is nothing pointing to the sky - I know my home is poor analogy to the Pentagon, but my point is security experts do not typically install these things to catch the motion pictures of cloud formation. If that is the case, do you not honestly think it would be reasonable in the best interest of the American people for the US government to keep this quiet rather than announce this immense vulnerability to the whole world? Imagine if that was the case, then terrorist will feel that the United States is open season, free for all terror attacks. I can assure you from my general experience (not specific to the Pentagon issue) that sometimes there is always a huge disparity between the perceived or expected levels of security and the actual levels - sometimes it is to a disgraceful degree that will make the government blush if it were to be made public. Disclosing this gaping disparity is pretty much like announcing at the rooftops to your neighbourhood that your back door has a faulty lock and has been faulty for months but you intend to do something to fix it before you actually get a chance to fix it. You wouldn't do that, will you? You would keep it quiet, grab a locksmith and secure the door. So why do you expect the government with a huge populace's best interest to protect to just roll over and hand this information over publicly? Sometimes what is not disclosed to you is to protect you.

Quite frankly, in the Pentagon case, you can hardly blame the government for not filming the sky, it's just not done by means of CCTV cameras.
 
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anonname

New Member
Hmmmm, would the people who use c130s to smuggle tonnes of heroin and cocaine into the USA be honest when it comes to a DVD. If their was a tape it has been destroyed or is held by one or a few people as collateral. If it was a plane they would just release the video.
 

Cairenn

Senior Member.
Who are you referring to and do you have any evidence for your claim.

Maybe in your country, there are cameras everywhere, but not here. Cameras would not have been focused on the sky or the side of a building. Dozens of folks SAY it, parts of the plane were found in the building and on the grounds.

Facts not fairy tales.
 

BombDr

Senior Member.
Hmmmm, would the people who use c130s to smuggle tonnes of heroin and cocaine into the USA be honest when it comes to a DVD. If their was a tape it has been destroyed or is held by one or a few people as collateral. If it was a plane they would just release the video.

I'm going to regret asking this, but are you suggesting that drugs are being transported in Military Aircraft?

If so, for what purpose?

Do you have any evidence on this, other than some links to some CT sites?
 

anonname

New Member
For money? It is a pretty widely accepted fact that the USA often supplies armies with weapons in exchange for drugs why do you think their army likes to spend so much time in the middle east. Few things to google which will lead you in the right direction, Contras check out all the ones the US has been involved in.
http://www.justice.gov/oig/special/9712/
http://books.google.ca/books?id=LwDSnMem3GIC&pg=PA108&redir_esc=y#v=onepage&q&f=false
Theirs also lots of good free documentaries on youtube.
Their still doing it now, around 2008 a CIA plane crashed filled with coke.
 

BombDr

Senior Member.
For money? It is a pretty widely accepted fact that the USA often supplies armies with weapons in exchange for drugs why do you think their army likes to spend so much time in the middle east. Few things to google which will lead you in the right direction, Contras check out all the ones the US has been involved in.
http://www.justice.gov/oig/special/9712/
http://books.google.ca/books?id=LwDSnMem3GIC&pg=PA108&redir_esc=y#v=onepage&q&f=false
Theirs also lots of good free documentaries on youtube.
Their still doing it now, around 2008 a CIA plane crashed filled with coke.

So you are suggesting that the real reason we are in Afghanistan is to export narcotics? I am sat in Kandahar Airfield, and you are seriously telling me that the aircraft that fly from here are full of heroin?

I hate to break this to you mate, but just because you google something, it does not make it true.
 

Oxymoron

Banned
Banned
So you are suggesting that the real reason we are in Afghanistan is to export narcotics? I am sat in Kandahar Airfield, and you are seriously telling me that the aircraft that fly from here are full of heroin?

I hate to break this to you mate, but just because you google something, it does not make it true.

So you deny it is true?

You appear to be in a very small minority.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/wor...hanistans-deadly-heroin-trade-has-failed.html


The Taliban destroyed all the opium production back in 2000. Now Afghanistan provides 90% of all the world's opium. Appears that was a good reason to go to war... to reinstate it. Apparently HSBC need the revenue from laundering the money and well, we have to look after HSBC and the other banks don't we... it's good for the econonomy.



A bad year for the poppy crop due to blight but promising harvests are looking better.



Silly old twoofers... What do they know?
 

anonname

New Member
So you are suggesting that the real reason we are in Afghanistan is to export narcotics? I am sat in Kandahar Airfield, and you are seriously telling me that the aircraft that fly from here are full of heroin?

I hate to break this to you mate, but just because you google something, it does not make it true.
Your job is to do what the military industrial machine tells you to do, your not in politics you dont work for the CIA or FBI people at the bottom of the food chain don't move up unless they can comprehend and can face the real reality. I suggest you start reading more books and watching less Fox news. You could honestly find out a lot of basic truths just by watching a few basic documentaries on youtube or even reading wikipedia. Google operation northwoods train your brain for a few minutes if you can handle that maybe try move on to some "tougher" stuff like the Tuskegee experiments.
 

anonname

New Member
So you are suggesting that the real reason we are in Afghanistan is to export narcotics? I am sat in Kandahar Airfield, and you are seriously telling me that the aircraft that fly from here are full of heroin?

I hate to break this to you mate, but just because you google something, it does not make it true.

Also if you do not know this man you should do A LOT MORE READING! His name is Oliver North he is a LT in the USA and was a major weapons and drug dealer in the middle east. Theirs a lot of people out their doing the same things! Just because you dont know about it does not mean it is not happening.
 
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BombDr

Senior Member.
So you deny it is true?

You appear to be in a very small minority.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/wor...hanistans-deadly-heroin-trade-has-failed.html


The Taliban destroyed all the opium production back in 2000. Now Afghanistan provides 90% of all the world's opium. Appears that was a good reason to go to war... to reinstate it. Apparently HSBC need the revenue from laundering the money and well, we have to look after HSBC and the other banks don't we... it's good for the econonomy.



A bad year for the poppy crop due to blight but promising harvests are looking better.



Silly old twoofers... What do they know?

Yes Oxy, I am catagortically denying that opium is being harvested and flown to the West on military aircraft.

Please give me a single instance of that happening.
 

BombDr

Senior Member.
Your job is to do what the military industrial machine tells you to do, your not in politics you dont work for the CIA or FBI people at the bottom of the food chain don't move up unless they can comprehend and can face the real reality. I suggest you start reading more books and watching less Fox news. You could honestly find out a lot of basic truths just by watching a few basic documentaries on youtube or even reading wikipedia. Google operation northwoods train your brain for a few minutes if you can handle that maybe try move on to some "tougher" stuff like the Tuskegee experiments.

Northwoods - the truthers favourite toy. You do know that it did not go any further than a plan right?

I do like it when people tell me I'm too stupid to understand my profession...
 

Oxymoron

Banned
Banned
Yes Oxy, I am catagortically denying that opium is being harvested and flown to the West on military aircraft.

Please give me a single instance of that happening.

Never mind about the 'flown to the west on military aircraft' nonsense... as if I would be able to access flight manifests, (which would be false anyway if drugs were being shipped... I mean; how many lorries turn up at customs with a manifest saying "Flatpack tables and £2.5 million in opium".).

Do you dispute that opium production was virtually eradicated by the Taliban in 2000 and is now at peak production under the auspices of ISAF and accounts for 90% of the world's supply and that there are fields upon fields of it openly growing in Afghanistan?

Do you have any figures on the arrests of farmers growing poppies out there?

Do you know how it is transported, financed etc etc?
 

Oxymoron

Banned
Banned
Northwoods - the truthers favourite toy. You do know that it did not go any further than a plan right?

I do like it when people tell me I'm too stupid to understand my profession...

Thought processes always precede human action, even at the most basic or subconscious level. Forgot to mention it was taken right to presidential level. Simply because it wasn't actioned on that occasion, (by a president who was later assassinated), is not a contraindication to it being actioned in the future. It is the opposite, it shows the intent, (at high level) and shows that it was likely to be attempted again and with a 'crusading' 'warmongering' president... well much more amenable and likely consent?
 

BombDr

Senior Member.
Never mind about the 'flown to the west on military aircraft' nonsense... as if I would be able to access flight manifests, (which would be false anyway if drugs were being shipped... I mean; how many lorries turn up at customs with a manifest saying "Flatpack tables and £2.5 million in opium".).

Do you dispute that opium production was virtually eradicated by the Taliban in 2000 and is now at peak production under the auspices of ISAF and accounts for 90% of the world's supply and that there are fields upon fields of it openly growing in Afghanistan?

Do you have any figures on the arrests of farmers growing poppies out there?

Do you know how it is transported, financed etc etc?

No you are correct that the opium production has increased - how does that prove that it is an evil western plot, by the Queen, or Illuminati or whichever boogyman is perpetrating it this week?

It is simply too simplistic to say that Taliban 'eradicated' the poppy harvest, they simply regulated it. It is now one of their sources of income. The other reasons its has been able to flourish are firstly it is not ISAF's priority to deal with it, something I disagree with, secondly it is believed that to take income from impoverished farmer will more likely turn them to the insurgency - again, something I do not agree with and finally, the corruption of the Afghan government allows such things to occur.

I know there are fileds of it, I have walked through it. It is one of the few places I am safe, because the Taliban rarely place IEDs anywhere near their income crop. I don't have any figures to hand on arrests, but they do occur, usually if they are of a rival clan to the local Police chief, and it is mostly transported by livestock or truck accross to Pakistan.

It certainly does not pass through the hands of ISAF.
 

Grieves

Senior Member
Lets keep in mind that in 2001, video cameras were still not very ubiquitous or high resolution, and the only viable storage option was tape. The storage option is very important because your storage costs scale quickly which each additional camera.
Ahhhh, I've heard this gem before. The bygone era of ancient 2001, where tape-decks and vinyl and floppy-disks were at the peak of technology. Some folks seem to have bad memories. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Video_CD http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CD-RW http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DVD http://www.the-numbers.com/dvd/schedule2001.php http://www.dpreview.com/news/2001/3/12/doubledigimarket
Digital camera penetration doubled in 2000 to reach 25% of US Internet households, and consumer purchase plans indicate that it will double again in 2001, according to a new survey of over 1,000 US Internet households by InfoTrends Research Group, Inc.
Tell me again how the surveillance of the Pentagon would be restricted to low-caliber cameras hooked up to VCR's. Even if tapes were used along the line, digital storage was available, and the 'cost' of tapes would hardly be an issue for the Pentagon.

Let's also keep in mind that such an attack was totally unprecedented, I'd venture to say that many in the military didn't think anyone would try anything at all, much less flying a plane into the building.
would you be surprised to know they'd conducted exorcises a year prior simulating the crash of an airplane into the Pentagon?

Never mind about the 'flown to the west on military aircraft' nonsense... as if I would be able to access flight manifests, (which would be false anyway if drugs were being shipped... I mean; how many lorries turn up at customs with a manifest saying "Flatpack tables and £2.5 million in opium".).

Do you dispute that opium production was virtually eradicated by the Taliban in 2000 and is now at peak production under the auspices of ISAF and accounts for 90% of the world's supply and that there are fields upon fields of it openly growing in Afghanistan?

Do you have any figures on the arrests of farmers growing poppies out there?

Do you know how it is transported, financed etc etc?
What's really interesting about the American military support of the Opium trade in Afghanistan (which is unquestionably taking place, whether intentional or not) is that America has an over-abundance of opiates stockpiled which cost millions to store and maintain a year, meaning there would be no legitimate reason for it like keeping up medicinal stocks.
 

Oxymoron

Banned
Banned
Ahhhh, I've heard this gem before. The bygone era of ancient 2001, where tape-decks and vinyl and floppy-disks were at the peak of technology. Some folks seem to have bad memories. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Video_CD http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CD-RW http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DVD http://www.the-numbers.com/dvd/schedule2001.php http://www.dpreview.com/news/2001/3/12/doubledigimarket

Tell me again how the surveillance of the Pentagon would be restricted to low-caliber cameras hooked up to VCR's.

would you be surprised to know they'd conducted exorcises a year prior simulating the crash of an airplane into the Pentagon?

Don't you realise how long ago that was... it was the stone age man! Ancient technology. Everyone knows the modern world only started 6 months ago. :)

Good link on the Pentagon Attack Simulations.


What's really interesting about the American military support of the Opium trade in Afghanistan (which is unquestionably taking place, whether intentional or not) is that America has an over-abundance opiates stockpiled which cost millions to store and maintain a year, meaning there would be no legitimate reason for it like keeping up medicinal stocks.

Seems some disagreement on that:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...poppies-grown-make-NHS-pain-relief-drugs.html
 

Oxymoron

Banned
Banned
No you are correct that the opium production has increased - how does that prove that it is an evil western plot, by the Queen, or Illuminati or whichever boogyman is perpetrating it this week?

It is simply too simplistic to say that Taliban 'eradicated' the poppy harvest, they simply regulated it. It is now one of their sources of income. The other reasons its has been able to flourish are firstly it is not ISAF's priority to deal with it, something I disagree with, secondly it is believed that to take income from impoverished farmer will more likely turn them to the insurgency - again, something I do not agree with and finally, the corruption of the Afghan government allows such things to occur.

I know there are fileds of it, I have walked through it. It is one of the few places I am safe, because the Taliban rarely place IEDs anywhere near their income crop. I don't have any figures to hand on arrests, but they do occur, usually if they are of a rival clan to the local Police chief, and it is mostly transported by livestock or truck accross to Pakistan.

It certainly does not pass through the hands of ISAF.

Glad we can agree on something, (at least to some extent), at last :)

Maybe ISAF will be able to agree a proper production process in the upcoming meetings with the Taliban, (once the delay is sorted out).

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013/jun/20/afghanistan-talks-taliban-qatar-cancelled

I expect the 'for profit prison companies' want to be included to ensure that levels are not too low and it doesn't detract from their 'customer base'.
 

anonname

New Member
Btw one little piece of info that debunks the whole flight 77 thing is that a plane of that size cant fly at 15 feet above the ground well going 500km/h even the best test pilots would have to stay at 60 feet because of ground effect you would just get sucked to the ground unless we are dealing with alien terrorists probs dint happen. Also the wake turb from those massive engines would dig holes in the ground.
 
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