Claim: Giza Plateau: discovery of a huge city under the Pyramids

[Ravi]

I remember ground penetrating radar very well from the Time Team tv series. They used it extensively. What I also recall is that it never ever was/is a clear image of what is going on beneath the surface. It is vague, blurry and often complete non-realistic view of the sub surface.

It is absurd to make such leaps towards the conclusions that they make.

 

[Ann K]

I remember ground penetrating radar very well from the Time Team tv series. They used it extensively. What I also recall is that it never ever was/is a clear image of what is going on beneath the surface. It is vague, blurry and often complete non-realistic view of the sub surface.

It is absurd to make such leaps towards the conclusions that they make.

Granted that there have probably been great advances in underground sensing techniques over the years, they certainly don't show in the examples given in post number 2. I was struck by the mis-match between the scans and the precise descriptions of their finds. In particular, they mentioned deep shafts with helical access stairs, which sounded like a person thinking "Hmm, how would ancient civilizations have dug these?", followed by a reasonable assumption. In other words, the scan was described to fit the imagined structure, instead of the structure being informed by the scan.

 

[NorCal Dave]

I remember ground penetrating radar very well from the Time Team tv series. They used it extensively. What I also recall is that it never ever was/is a clear image of what is going on beneath the surface. It is vague, blurry and often complete non-realistic view of the sub surface.

It is absurd to make such leaps towards the conclusions that they make.

I don't think they're even doing that. I gotta read through it some more, but as others pointed out up thread, the Egyptian government is very protective of who runs around the pyramids with assorted equipment. Instead, it seems these guys are using satellite information and a new software system to interpolate "micro-movements" in the pyramids:

The present work describes an imaging method based on the analysis of micro-movements on the Khnum-Khufu Pyramid, which are usually generated by background seismic waves. The obtained results prove to be very promising, as high-resolution full 3D tomographic imaging of the pyramid's interior and subsurface was achieved. Khnum-Khufu becomes transparent when observed in the micro-movement domain.

The experimental results are estimated by processing series of SAR images from the second-generation Italian COSMO-SkyMed satellite system, demonstrating the effectiveness of the proposed method.

At least that's how I'm understanding it, and I'm easily confused.

 

[Nemon]

At least that's how I'm understanding it, and I'm easily confused.

In fact, it is exclusively interpolated satellite data. One of the biggest criticisms is the poor noise to signal ratio. And that theses generated with satellite data would have to be cross-checked with measurement methods in situ. This does not take place. This self-proclaimed research project would not even receive approval. Instead, it is trying to be a bit of a free rider by placing itself in the context of the Japanese-French Scan Pyramids project.
Has that already been discussed here? One of the two is a hardcore alien abduction expert...

 

[Ravi]

I don't think they're even doing that. I gotta read through it some more, but as others pointed out up thread, the Egyptian government is very protective of who runs around the pyramids with assorted equipment. Instead, it seems these guys are using satellite information and a new software system to interpolate "micro-movements" in the pyramids.

I agree, I was more referring to the GPR technology in general. I was not assuming they went on the pyramids with their GPR detector sleigh.

 

[Lu Ann Lewellen]

A Statement by Zahy Hawass
on the fake news on Kafre pyramid

I would like to make a statement regarding the news that was published all over the world by a group of amateurs. The news was under the pyramid of Khafre at Giza they found a platform topped with pillars.
All this information is completely wrong and has absolutely no scientific basis. In addition, the ministry of tourism and antiquity did not give permission to any individuals or institutions to work inside or outside the second pyramid. In addition, the claim that a radar was used inside the pyramid is false.
These people who announced this wrong information, they used techniques that are not approved nor validated , the details announced would never have been seen by using this technique.
Zahi Hawass.

Source: https://www.facebook.com/permalink.php?story_fbid=pfbid0njouvjbw8wq2SedcW78ZtsF4V11kQS8zDMNqyp8FhDkTaePP3WBbe8zyWjnPdqPBl&id=100044332304573

 

[MonkeeSage]

Flint Dibble did a live stream about this on his youtube channel on Friday. Dr. Dibble referenced this 2023 paper from Zhu, et al, showing the signal penetration depth for SAR is less than 2 meters for rocky ground and man-made features—quite a bit less than the 648 meters claimed here.

"ML based approach for inverting penetration depth of SAR signals over large desert areas"
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0034425723001943

The approach is applied to calculate the penetration depth of ALOS-1 PALSAR L-band signals for a large part of the Kufra Basin, an area of about 60, 000 km². The penetration depths of four types of typical landforms in area (i.e., sandy plains, paleochannels, rocks and man-made features) are discussed in relation to the geological and climatic conditions. The average signal penetration depths over the paleochannels, sandy plains, and rocks and man-made features are 2.84 m, 1.97 m, 1.21 m, respectively. It is found that the backscattering coefficient, dielectric constant, surface roughness and mineral composition are the most important parameters in determining the signal penetration depths. An interesting point is that the existence of hematite in the sand can increase the dielectric dissipation of the sand medium and shorten the signal penetration depth.

 

[RAS]

Flint Dibble did a live stream about this on his youtube channel on Friday.

lol…and he is understandably frustrated by the situation and dealing with all of the cuckoos! His opening made me laugh

 

[RobertBillyBob]

the signal penetration depth for SAR is less than 2 meters for rocky ground and man-made features—quite a bit less than the 648 meters claimed here.

I'll write a more detailed explanation later if I have more time, but I read the paper and some of its references and they are not claiming that SAR penetrate underground at all.

They are using the SAR phase to mesure surface vibration (the micro movements) (see Ruegg et Al 2007, Vibration and rotation in millimeter-wave SAR https://ieeexplore.ieee.org/document/4069119). Then, using the mesured surface vibration they reconstruct subsurface density data (the tomography part of the title), the same way you can estimate earth crust density using seismic data. Basically they are using SAR as space based seismometers.

 

[MonkeeSage]

They are using the SAR phase to mesure surface vibration (the micro movements) (see Ruegg et Al 2007, Vibration and rotation in millimeter-wave SAR https://ieeexplore.ieee.org/document/4069119). Then, using the mesured surface vibration they reconstruct subsurface density data (the tomography part of the title), the same way you can estimate earth crust density using seismic data. Basically they are using SAR as space based seismometers.

Thanks for the clarification! That makes sense, given some of the reviewer comments previously posted for the 2020 and 2022 papers.

 

[RAS]

I suppose a bigger obstacle for the supposed mega structures built under the pyramids is the well known fact that the pyramids are built directly on bedrock…lol

 

[John J.]

Just thinking about the real-world validity of Filippo Biondi and Corrado Malangna's claims:

The ability to image (or extrapolate images of) structures tens, even hundreds of metres underground using remote sensing, with little disturbance to the local environment and using means that are so low-profile that they are effectively invisible is a capability that Filippo and Corrado should share.

As a technological breakthrough it is as great as their archaeological discoveries.
It will be a huge boon to geology, prospecting, archaeology, the military, law enforcement and search and rescue efforts;
if anything, it seems a bit remiss of Biondi and Malangna not to offer their services in those incidents where mines have collapsed, trapping workers.

The military uses are obvious; some potential adversary nations (e.g. Russia, China) have substantial underground bunkers and missile silos. The use of tunnels by North Korea, some militant groups in the Middle East and by cartels smuggling drugs into the USA are well-documented.

I expect I've overlooked some essential fact; perhaps the Filippo/ Corrado technique can only work where exploratory digging, drilling or other confirmatory investigations/ interventions aren't possible.

 

[Gary C]

They are using the SAR phase to mesure surface vibration (the micro movements) (see Ruegg et Al 2007, Vibration and rotation in millimeter-wave SAR https://ieeexplore.ieee.org/document/4069119). Then, using the measured surface vibration they reconstruct subsurface density data (the tomography part of the title), the same way you can estimate earth crust density using seismic data. Basically they are using SAR as space based seismometers.

That's how I read it and how I interpreted the reviewer's criticisms concerning the baseline resolution of the satellite data they allegedly used in this research and the S/N questions it raises.

 

[John J.]

I suppose a bigger obstacle for the supposed mega structures built under the pyramids is the well known fact that the pyramids are built directly on bedrock

Metabunk member: Huge structures under pyramids built by last of the dinosaurs, completed by giant mammals
-Advances in Alternative Archaeology

 

[Ann K]

Just thinking about the real-world validity of Filippo Biondi and Corrado Malangna's claims:

But (unless that post is entirely tongue-in-cheek) you're not talking about the validity of their claims. You're talking about the potential uses of claims whose validity has never been confirmed. That's right up there with the peace, love, and prosperity that the aliens are going to bring us when they zoom in on their UFOs.

 

[John J.]

But (unless that post is entirely tongue-in-cheek) you're not talking about the validity of their claims. You're talking about the potential uses of claims whose validity has never been confirmed.

I expect that's right.
I wasn't addressing their claimed archaeological discoveries directly, but I don't believe they have the ability to obtain reasonably detailed images of structures hundreds of metres under a pyramid- e.g. spiral pathways around huge wells.

A capability to do this remotely or with otherwise unobtrusive equipment would have other applications.

 

[Ravi]

The best part of it is that we or nobody for that matter can verify their claims.. Never will Egypt allow drilling, so there is no way to check physically. Very convenient.

 

[NorCal Dave]

The best part of it is that we or nobody for that matter can verify their claims.. Never will Egypt allow drilling, so there is no way to check physically. Very convenient.

I'm tempted to say they could use this technique on known things like mines, caves, one of Elon's tunnel projects, the Chunnel or whatever to show how incredibly accurate it is, thus forcing the Egyptian government to do something. But that's not going to happen.

Not only does further testing on known sites risk bad results showing the technique isn't very accurate at all, but the accuracy isn't really all that important I would argue. How well this technique works, if at all, and for where, will be up to the relevant experts in the field. Even if it's later shown to be completely useless and maybe even the paper withdrawn, it won't matter much.

Like the UFO papers we've discussed in other threads, this paper manages to place Atlantis and Ancient Civilizations into a legit academic journal. A group of Atlantis enthusiasts used a technique to create a bunch of data about the pyramids, then used their own unique software program to interpret that data in a way that confirmed what they already believed to be true. The pyramids aren't funerary structures made from big piles of cut rocks, rather they are complex multi chambered buildings sitting atop an array of underground facilities. They are part of a technologically advanced system that does something unknown.

I know the word "Atlantis" doesn't appear in the paper, but I think these Ancient Civilization folks need to be called out a bit on this. In Plato's works Atlantis get mentioned twice, in what are obviously allegorical tales. In Timaeus it is described this way:

This power came forth out of the Atlantic Ocean, for in those days the Atlantic was navigable; and there was an island situated in front of the straits which are by you called the Pillars of Heracles; the island was larger than Libya and Asia put together, and was the way to other islands, and from these you might pass to the whole of the opposite continent which surrounded the true ocean; for this sea which is within the Straits of Heracles is only a harbour, having a narrow entrance, but that other is a real sea, and the surrounding land may be most truly called a boundless continent.

Now in this island of Atlantis there was a great and wonderful empire which had rule over the whole island and several others, and over parts of the continent, and, furthermore, the men of Atlantis had subjected the parts of Libya within the columns of Heracles as far as Egypt, and of Europe as far as Tyrrhenia

In Critias there is a much more detailed and drawn-out description, which includes the now famous concentric lands and waters created by Poseidon to seal away some dead guy's hot daughter after he got busy with her:

The maiden had already reached womanhood, when her father and mother died; Poseidon fell in love with her and had intercourse with her, and breaking the ground, inclosed the hill in which she dwelt all round, making alternate zones of sea and land larger and smaller, encircling one another; there were two of land and three of water, which he turned as with a lathe, each having its circumference equidistant every way from the centre, so that no man could get to the island, for ships and voyages were not as yet.

After some Biblical length begats with twins and kings and stuff, Poseidon's rings are turned into the Atlantis we hear about:

First of all they bridged over the zones of sea which surrounded the ancient metropolis, making a road to and from the royal palace. And at the very beginning they built the palace in the habitation of the god and of their ancestors, which they continued to ornament in successive generations, every king surpassing the one who went before him to the utmost of his power, until they made the building a marvel to behold for size and for beauty.

And beginning from the sea they bored a canal of three hundred feet in width and one hundred feet in depth and fifty stadia in length, which they carried through to the outermost zone, making a passage from the sea up to this, which became a harbour, and leaving an opening sufficient to enable the largest vessels to find ingress.

https://www.jasoncolavito.com/platos-atlantis-dialogues.html

More or less a giant circular Venice. There's lots of other details in Critias, but what's NOT in either work is anything that can be construed as advanced technology. Atlantis is described as maritime city, while very large in keeping with the allegorical nature, that is on par with Athens. Assuming an Athens existed in the same supposed time frame. One could stretch a bit and say the large earth and water works had to be done with "advanced technology", but there doesn't seem to be any hint of that in the writings. More like, this was such a big and powerful kingdom, they had the manpower to accomplish these things. And according to Timaeus, Atlantis was defeated by Athens, so if they had "advanced technology" it wasn't very good.

The whole notion of an "Advanced Ancient Civilization" that carried on to Egypt and other places is not from Plato, but from Ignatius Donnelly. In his book, Atlantis: The Antediluvian World, he lays out the well-worn tropes claimed by Hancock and other Ancient Civilization proponents, like the authors of this paper, parrot today:

With his book he states that he is trying to prove thirteen distinct hypotheses:[2]​

2. That the description of this island given by Plato is not fable, as has been long supposed, but veritable history.

4. That it became, in the course of ages, a populous and mighty nation, from whose emigrants the shores of the Gulf of Mexico, the Mississippi River, the Amazon River, the Pacific coast of South America, the Mediterranean, the west coast of Europe and Africa, the Baltic, the Black Sea, and the Caspian were populated by civilized nations.

8. That the oldest colony formed by Atlantis was probably Egypt, whose civilization was a reproduction of that Atlantic island.

13. That a few persons escaped in ships and on rafts, and carried to the nations east and west the tidings of the appalling catastrophe, which has survived to our own time in the Flood and Deluge legends of the different nations of the old and new worlds.

And of course, the old white Aryan thing as well:

11. That Atlantis was the original seat of the Aryan or Indo-European family of nations, as well as of the Semitic peoples, and possibly also of the Turanian races.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atlantis:_The_Antediluvian_World

Donnelly didn't quite say "advanced civilization" when talking about Atlantis, more that all civilization since the destruction of Atlantis was learned from Atlantis. He insinuates that in his 19th century time of steam power and electricity, civilization was just beging to get back to what Atlantis had done long ago:

Modern civilization is Atlantean. Without the thousands of years of development which were had in Atlantis modern civilization could not have existed. The inventive faculty of the present age is taking up the great delegated work of creation where Atlantis left it thousands of years ago.

https://avalonlibrary.net/ebooks/Ignatius Donnelly - Atlantis - The Antedeluvian World.pdf

Helena Blavatsky furthered Donnelly's work in her own rambling assemblage of channeled insights from the supposed Book of Dzyan which she wrote down in The Secret Doctrine. She assert that the Atlanians were giants and had Marvel like poweres which made them arrogant:

These tenets came to the Fifth Race Aryans from their predecessors of the Fourth Race, the Atlanteans. They had piously preserved the teachings, which told them how their parent Root-Race, becoming with every generation more arrogant, owing to the acquisition of superhuman powers, had been gradually gliding toward its end.

And in keeping with most of today's Ancient Civilization proponents, Blavatsky offers a blueprint for scientists don't know what they're talking about:

Its mention is carefully avoided except in some books of Travels; modern science has an undeniable predilection for forcing upon the cultured public hypotheses, built on personal hobbies, as well-established evidence, for offering it guesses instead of Knowledge, and calling them "scientific conclusions." Its specialists will evolve a thousand and one contradictory speculations rather than confess an awkward self-evident fact — pre-eminent among such specialists being Haeckel and his English admirers and co-thinkers. Yet "they are authorities" — we are sternly reminded. What of that? The Pope of Rome is also an authority and an infallible one — for his followers; whereas the remarkable fallibility of Scientific speculations is being proven periodically with every change of the moon.

https://www.theosociety.org/pasadena/sd/sd2-3-07.htm

Hancock and other Ancient Civilizations enthusiasts claim that a comet impact around 12,900 YA or 10,500 BC wiped out any evidence of the Ancient Civilization they are convinced existed and are always bringing up bits of evidence for, despite the comet obliterating said evidence is nothing new. Now known as the Younger Dryas Impact Hypothesis (YDIH), and not well received by most relevant experts, this idea also comes from Donnelly in his follow up to Atlantis, called Ragnarok: The Age of Fire and Gravel. In it, he claimed a comet hit Earth ~12,000YA wiping out an advanced civilization and forcing the survivors to live like cavemen where they forgot about their pervious advanced civilization. See: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ragnarok:_The_Age_of_Fire_and_Gravel

All that to say, these modern Ancient Civilization guys with all their new and controversial ideas attempting to shake up the status quo are all just rehashing 19th century pseudoscience and esoteric ramblings from people that had no idea what they were talking about 100+ years ago.






.

 

[SuppaCoup]

And in keeping with most of today's Ancient Civilization proponents, Blavatsky offers a blueprint for scientists don't know what they're talking about:
Its mention is carefully avoided except in some books of Travels; modern science has an undeniable predilection for forcing upon the cultured public hypotheses, built on personal hobbies, as well-established evidence, for offering it guesses instead of Knowledge, and calling them "scientific conclusions." Its specialists will evolve a thousand and one contradictory speculations rather than confess an awkward self-evident fact — pre-eminent among such specialists being Haeckel and his English admirers and co-thinkers. Yet "they are authorities" — we are sternly reminded. What of that? The Pope of Rome is also an authority and an infallible one — for his followers; whereas the remarkable fallibility of Scientific speculations is being proven periodically with every change of the moon.
[/EX] https://www.theosociety.org/pasadena/sd/sd2-3-07.htm

Incredible to see such proud, strutting ignorance of the process of scientific refinement and discovery. She was a real pioneer in the "I am a brave persecuted rebel standing against the smothering weight of the Establishment!" school of rabble-rousing.

 

[Ravi]

@NorCal Dave

Indeed, if the technique they used was so revolutionary, and easy to do (analysis using satellite data), they would have shown these comparisons surely. That they don't show any verification, tells me it is all a load of Italian non sense.

 

[psikiwi]

The ChatGPT version is not exact but will give you the jest of the conversation.

You mean 'having a laugh'?! Nice Freudian slip, methinks...

 

[RAS]

Nice Freudian slip, methinks.

Given the topic, it does work that way! However, I intended to use the word gist. Where is spell check when you need it?

 

[Ann K]

@NorCal Dave , from your quote:

so that no man could get to the island, for ships and voyages were not as yet.

That is a flight of fantasy, because "ships and voyages" long preceded the "Atlantis" myth and all of that description. Sea travel, of course, would have been needed to populate every island known to have been occupied in Paleolithic times.

 

[NorCal Dave]

@NorCal Dave

Indeed, if the technique they used was so revolutionary, and easy to do (analysis using satellite data), they would have shown these comparisons surely. That they don't show any verification, tells me it is all a load of Italian non sense.

I got lost down the rabbit hole of Donnelly and trying to read Blavatsky's incoherent stream of plagiarized consciences and didn't really make my point.

Whether it works or not is irrelevant. They used some accepted and known techniques and tweaked it a bit to produce evidence for an Ancient Civilization, then got that published in what appears to be a legit if obscure peer reviewed journal. Mission accomplished. It's been all over the news and social media. They've even been on Joe Rogan.

Obviously, there is a labyrinthine city in and below the pyramids that no dumb-ass Egyptian could have built without the help of Atlanteans, or maybe the pyramids were built by the Atlanteans, with the Egyptians just stumbling along latter. The Egyptian government and Big-Arch have been hiding the existence of the Ancient Civilization for decades or more. We now have high-tech satellite-tomography-radar-thing-with-penetration generated 3D models confirming the Ancient Civilization AND the cover up of said civilization!

Now if a bunch of eggheads in an obscure academic journal conclude that this novel approach to SAR and micro-movement analysis is questionable at best, and incapable of mapping an underground city in the pyramids, the average Joe, or the famous Joe, won't understand it or really care. It'll just be pages of techno-babble and lots of math.

If this paper were to attract enough attention for the wrong reasons, that maybe the journal retracts it, that will just be more evidence of the cover up. Recall Hancock's glowing account in his book and Netflix series about the "archeological excavations" on Gunung Padang in Indonesia.

Geologist Danny Hilman Natawidjaja claimed that Gunung Padang, likely the neck of an extinct volcano, was in fact a man-made pyramid built 9000-20,000 year ago by, you guessed it, an Ancient Civilization. At that age it could make it the oldest known pyramid, so that got the attention of the Indonesian president for nationalistic reasons, so Natawidjaja joined forces with politician Andy Arif and an excavation was launched.

Much like the paper being discussed here, Natawidjaja went looking for evidence of what he already knew existed, an Ancient Civilization, and he used a known technique, radiocarbon dating. He then published his results in a legit journal, Archaeological Prospection, in 2023. Again, Hancock hailed his work as revolutionary. Actual trained archeologist from Indonesia questioned the whole enterprise:

Thirty-four Indonesian archaeologists and geologists signed a petition questioning the motives and methods of the Hilman-Arif team and submitted it to Yudhoyono.[13]​

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gunung_Padang

The methods in question involved Natawidjaja's team excavating into the supposed pyramid, finding some organic material, claiming with no evidence, other than it was in a manmade pyramid, that it was associated with human activity. He had the material radiocarbon dated to 9000YA, when they figured it was built. As this is a bit backwards, the backlash eventually resulted in the paper being retracted:

...the radiocarbon dating was applied to soil samples that were not associated with any artifacts or features that could be reliably interpreted as anthropogenic or "man-made". Therefore, the interpretation that the site is an ancient pyramid built 9,000 or more years ago is incorrect, and the article must be retracted.[15]​

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gunung_Padang

Hancock and others raged that the retraction was part of the cover up. Instead of "burying" and "hiding" Natawdijaja's results, Big-Arch should have engaged with radiocarbon dating and attempted to prove findings wrong. This is in effect asking to prove a negative, because the radiocarbon dating was correct. The problem was the material was not identified with human activity, so the date is meaningless. Of course, the Ancient Civilzation crowd thinks the hill is a human made pyramid, so anything in it is associated with human activity. Natawdijaja's status hasn't suffered in the Ancient Civilization world, on the contrary he is now Galileo like martyr to the truth.

Same with this paper. Any actual discussion about the techniques and processes used and whether they work or not is irrelevant. They have shown evidence for the Ancient Civilization and if that evidence is questioned, it's just proof of the cover-up.

 

[Ravi]

Matt (Ancient Architects) posted some valid critical questions on the FB page of the Italian team, about the data and the ridiculous conclusions they've made. He was instantly blocked..

 

[Edward Current]

Matt (Ancient Architects) posted some valid critical questions on the FB page of the Italian team, about the data and the ridiculous conclusions they've made. He was instantly blocked..

 

[Ann K]

Matt (Ancient Architects) posted some valid critical questions on the FB page of the Italian team, about the data and the ridiculous conclusions they've made. He was instantly blocked..

Well, THAT'S telling.

 

[MonkeeSage]

Matt (Ancient Architects) posted some valid critical questions on the FB page of the Italian team, about the data and the ridiculous conclusions they've made. He was instantly blocked..

He made a video about the findings as well and included his questions (starting around 12:58) but the whole video is worth a watch.


Source: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hh9sDs05s3c

 

[Ann K]

He made a video about the findings as well and included his questions (starting around 12:58) but the whole video is worth a watch.

I got half way, but his sing-song voice is putting me to sleep. I'd really like to see him scan and describe an underground tunnel, such as an old mine, for which he does not already have a plan, but the one mentioned appears to be one that is known to him, and thus my suspicious mind wonders if that's another case of the interpretation, rather than the data, fitting the already-known structure.

 

[Gary C]

Q: If the ancients were so advanced as to be able to drill 648 m into the rock, why didn't they install elevators?

 

[MonkeeSage]

I got half way, but his sing-song voice is putting me to sleep. I'd really like to see him scan and describe an underground tunnel, such as an old mine, for which he does not already have a plan, but the one mentioned appears to be one that is known to him, and thus my suspicious mind wonders if that's another case of the interpretation, rather than the data, fitting the already-known structure.

Agree. The video eventually gets there and also suggests a baseline scan of some random bedrock in the Giza plateau with no man-made structures built on top, as a control.

 

[Ravi]

Matt pointed to a "nail" in the coffin of these 500m high pillars. It is known the water table at the plateau on avarage only was @ -50m. This, because of a river flowing next to it.
It is absurd to assume that an old culture made structures hundreds of meters under water. What scientists would offer this a valid outcome?

 

[Ann K]

Matt pointed to a "nail" in the coffin of these 500m high pillars. It is known the water table at the plateau on avarage only was @ -50m. This, because of a river flowing next to it.
It is absurd to assume that an old culture made structures hundreds of meters under water. What scientists would offer this a valid outcome?

I absolutely believe you're right, but I'm not sure that's a convincing argument to use against them. A "true believer" in the ancient-high-tech-society schtick would point out two things. (1) We don't know where the water table was X thousands of years ago, and (2) Shafts may have been created as wells during a period of extreme drought. I am just playing devil's advocate, of course. We know that deep wells existed with stairs inside so the water could be reached whatever its level, but the description of multiple shafts given in the OP is entirely unrealistic.

One amusing thing about Matt's video is, if I'm interpreting his diagrams correctly, that he shows helical stairs around the outside of the shaft, when of course they'd have to be on the inside. Moreover, a single staircase would probably accommodate a single-direction workforce, highly unlikely for a place where people went down to work but had to bring all the material out again.

The ancient step-wells of India were planned so many people could go up and down at once:

 

[Nemon]

The ancient step-wells of India were planned so many people could go up and down at once:

I've never seen that before! But it reminds me of the ramps in Frank Müller-Römer's model of the construction of the Great Pyramid of Giza. According to him, their arrangement made it possible for several crews to transport stone blocks up simultaneously and turn them on the landings.

Edit; addition to make it clearer:

Source: https://archiv.ub.uni-heidelberg.de/propylaeumdok/1095/1/Mueller_Roemer_Pyramidenbau_2011.pdf
Page 30
I hope the original German source (the book version differs marginally from the linked PDF) will be accepted here, as the illustration itself explains itself as far as the statement about the arrangement of the steps is concerned.

 

[Mendel]

The study in this screenshot is at https://gi.copernicus.org/articles/8/29/2019/

 

[RAS]

Another great point that Matt brings up is, where are the spoil piles of all of that excavated material? That's quite a bit of rock.

 

[Mendel]

Another great point that Matt brings up is, where are the spoil piles of all of that excavated material? That's quite a bit of rock.

The piles are probably pyramid-shaped.

 

[RobertBillyBob]

My analysis of the technical content of Biondi's articles :

The two articles :

• Synthetic Aperture Radar Doppler Tomography Reveals Details of Undiscovered High-Resolution Internal Structure of the Great Pyramid of Giza
• Scanning Inside Volcanoes with Synthetic Aperture Radar Echography Tomographic Doppler Imaging

only differ by their experimental section. Texts and images in the methodology section are almost identical and they were published back to back. They can be analyzed together.
I'll refer to the author as Biondi as comparing the articles it is evident he is the one responsible for the technical content.


Theory
In these articles Biondi use satellite radar data to image subsurface structures.
A common critique of the claim is that radar can't penetrate far underground. This critique doesn't apply to the articles because Biondi is not using the radar data to see directly underground. Biondi is using the radar data to measure surface vibration.

SAR imagery data acquisition is not instantaneous. If the imaged object moves during acquisition, artifacts are introduced in the data. However, the same way you can reconstruct the movement of a light in a long exposure picture, you can extract vibration data from the SAR artifacts. Vibrations cause a small Doppler effect (change in the frequency) that can measured. From this measure the vibrational characteristics can be calculated.

The method uses spotlight mode SAR, this means that while the radar satellite is moving, it rotates in order to keep pointing at the pyramid, creating radar data from multiple angles. The vibrational characteristics of the pyramid is estimated for each viewing angle.
Tomographic reconstructing allow the imaging of the inside of a structure from data measured on the surface at multiple angle. X-ray tomography images the inside of a structure by measuring how much transparent to x-ray it is from multiple angles. Biondi apply this idea to the vibrational data obtained from the SAR data. The result is a SAR Doppler tomography.

The theory is based on previous research works (some of them by Biondi's team). It seems plausible.

Experimental results
Biondi used this tomography technique on two different cases : Mount Vesuvius and the Great Pyramid of Giza / Pyramid of Khnum-Khufu.
As many have remarked, the first step should have been to validate the technique on a know structure. I think Biondi kind of tried to do so with the volcano, but failed in my opinion.

He compares his results to magnetotelluric tomography images :

There are only 2 comparisons, they are visual comparisons without any calculated matching score nor detailed analysis.
One weird thing I noticed is that on the left side comparison high magnitude areas seems to match high resistiviry (resistivity?) areas, while on the right side comparison high magnitude areas seems to match low resistiviry areas.

That's it, that's the whole of the validation against data from other sources. It's very poor, and while the pictures kinda match, that's not really convincing. The images have probably been selected because they are the ones with the best match.

Experimental validation on the pyramid case is even worst.

We have a few comparison between Biondi's results and known structures within the pyramid :

Whole pyramid​

Zed​

Queen's chamber​

There a some structures that match, some that don't. The results show a high level of noise, the matching structure could very well be pareidolia. Biondi doesn't really discuss the quality of the matches.
The most significant comparison to me is the first one. Why is intensity on the left side of the pyramid so much different from the right side? Shouldn't the "shell" of the pyramid have a somewhat uniform density? Is the whole right side a hole? It's a like a third of the pyramid, you can't just ignore it.

A good detection method detects what it's supposed to detect without too many false alarms (low false positive rate). Biondi fails to show that his method detect know structures, but implies that since there are some matches for known structures the rest of what is detected must be unknown structures, without any words about potential false positives.


Conclusion
Although the theory behind the findings is plausible, the experimental protocol and validation are really lackluster, more aligned with trying to prove the methodology works without any reservation than trying to check whether it does and what are its limits.
This is the methodology they used to detect complex structures hundreds of meters underground. From the quality of the results on the example cases, I'm not convinced it could.

I don't think Biondi is acting in bad faith.
Firstly, the method is the result of multiple papers throughout his career, he has submitted a patent application for the technique and it looks to me as if he is planning to sell his analysis services (https://www.harmonicsar.com). He seems genuinely convinced his method works.
Secondly, the lack of experimental result validation seems to be a recurring feature of his research papers. In Monitoring of Critical Infrastructures by Micromotion Estimation: The Mosul Dam Destabilization, which our two articles are building onto, his team evaluate vibrational characteristics of a bridge and of the Mosul Dam, without comparing their results to any other data to validate their finding. It's not bad faith, only bad science.

 

[RAS]

Maybe the "ancients" were similar to the rock eating dwarves in Artemis Fowl.....


Source: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6E7J3-hIseo

 

[RAS]

Although the theory behind the findings is plausible, the experimental protocol and validation are really lackluster, more aligned with trying to prove the methodology works without any reservation than trying to check whether it does and what are its limits.

This lack of ground truthing is a HUGE issue that will need to be resolved if Biondi hopes to continue publication efforts. The other major problem he is faced with, is that he is allowing ancient alien proponents to interpret and link his data and methodology to a preposterous story prior to any credible data validation efforts. I suppose if your main interest is to have your name linked to a viral story in attempt to cash in on 15 minutes of fame it makes sense. I believe that he has left academia (not sure about this) and has developed a consulting company: