lack of a Pentagon boeing video

hiper

Active Member
We are talking about one of the most sensitive buildings on the planet so it's reasonable to assume there must have been a lot of camera's running.
If the government would release camera footage of flight 77 hitting the building it would be a blow to those questioning the official explanation.

The refusal to release the footage can only mean 1 thing... and that is they have a good reason to not release it.
 

Mick West

Administrator
Staff member
We are talking about one of the most sensitive buildings on the planet so it's reasonable to assume there must have been a lot of camera's running.
If the government would release camera footage of flight 77 hitting the building it would be a blow to those questioning the official explanation.

The refusal to release the footage can only mean 1 thing... and that is they have a good reason to not release it.

Or that they did NOT catch it on camera.

FOIA requests for footage resulted in no footage, and lots of details of the available footage that the FBI got, and what it showed.

Can you explain where you would expect cameras to be that would have caught the impact and survived?
 

hiper

Active Member
Or that they did NOT catch it on camera.

Absurd and you know it.

FOIA requests for footage resulted in no footage,

I am sure it did.

Can you explain where you would expect cameras to be that would have caught the impact and survived?

Again an absurd question. You want me to believe the pentagon only has one or two security camera's... One on the front door & one inside.
Do we live on the same planet? Are we talking about the same building? Are you seriously asking me this question?
 

Mick West

Administrator
Staff member
Absurd and you know it.



I am sure it did.



Again an absurd question. You want me to believe the pentagon only has one or two security camera's... One on the front door & one inside.
Do we live on the same planet? Are we talking about the same building? Are you seriously asking me this question?

You can't just keep saying something is absurd, that's not an argument. Why is it absurd?

I'm sure the pentagon has hundreds, if not thousands, of cameras, mostly indoors, but also over the entrances and parking lots.

BUT: security cameras almost invariable are positioned high up, and they look down. They would not have been pointing at the horizon.
 

Mick West

Administrator
Staff member
And in connection with the thread on how many people were involved - what are you suggesting here? How many people were involved in withholding all the video footage?
 

jvnk08

Senior Member.
Lets keep in mind that in 2001, video cameras were still not very ubiquitous or high resolution, and the only viable storage option was tape. The storage option is very important because your storage costs scale quickly which each additional camera. Let's also keep in mind that such an attack was totally unprecedented, I'd venture to say that many in the military didn't think anyone would try anything at all, much less flying a plane into the building.

Also, the Pentagon is probably not where a lot of sensitive information is kept, so the need for pervasive camera coverage is somewhat diminished. Such information would more likely be at Ft. Meade, Maryland(much more secured premises all around) where the NSA is; or McLean, Virginia where the CIA are headquartered, or any number of a dozen other areas in the DC region where various military interests, intelligence agencies and their associated contractors have condensed.

Fun fact: Police on the shoulder of highway 32, which passes by the NSA, are there not to catch speeders but to prevent people from pulling over along the stretch.
 

hiper

Active Member
It is absurd because we are talking about the Pentagon not barbershop 2. Ton's of camera's.
Don't you begin to feel a bit weird defending the official explanation yet again on a obviously hilarious point...
 

Mick West

Administrator
Staff member
It is absurd because we are talking about the Pentagon not barbershop 2. Ton's of camera's.
Don't you begin to feel a bit weird defending the official explanation yet again on a obviously hilarious point...

I already said they have tons of cameras.

Security cameras look down, not up. So they are not going to record a plane flying in. That's not what they are for.
 

jvnk08

Senior Member.
hiper said:
It is absurd because we are talking about the Pentagon not barbershop 2. Ton's of camera's.
Don't you begin to feel a bit weird defending the official explanation yet again on a obviously hilarious point...

I already said they have tons of cameras.

Security cameras look down, not up. So they are not going to record a plane flying in. That's not what they are for.

This.

Also, we're talking about the pre-9/11 world. Design goals and implementation of security systems were vastly different.
 

TWCobra

Senior Member.
Why don't you prove your hypothesis and go visit some building you consider may be a potential terrorist target? Go count the number of cameras you see that are specifically pointing away from the building in a direction where they will potentially record a similar style of attack?

Or would such a visit be pointless because, even now, no security operation would waste a camera to do such a thing?

If a building is under threat, a camera to record an air attack is a waste of money. A radar system and anti-aircraft missiles are what is required. Not a camera.
 

Cairenn

Senior Member.
Can anyone find the thread here with all the eyewitnesses to that plane hitting the Pentagon?
 

hiper

Active Member
Mick wants to defend 2 opposite things... on one hand he says there are tons of camera's at the Pentagon and on the other he defends the possibility none of these camera's capturing any boeing. I think his strategy will be to try to depict the Pentagon as a low priority level military structure with "grocery store-level" security cam systems.

ats48924_062a_COMP.jpg
 

George B

Extinct but not forgotten Staff Member
I already said they have tons of cameras.

Security cameras look down, not up. So they are not going to record a plane flying in. That's not what they are for.
Did not the aircraft hit the Pentagon almost at ground level?
 

Mick West

Administrator
Staff member
And where would the cameras be that captured this? And what were they pointing at?

 
Last edited:

George B

Extinct but not forgotten Staff Member
Lets keep in mind that in 2001, video cameras were still not very ubiquitous or high resolution, and the only viable storage option was tape. The storage option is very important because your storage costs scale quickly which each additional camera. Let's also keep in mind that such an attack was totally unprecedented, I'd venture to say that many in the military didn't think anyone would try anything at all, much less flying a plane into the building.

Also, the Pentagon is probably not where a lot of sensitive information is kept, so the need for pervasive camera coverage is somewhat diminished. Such information would more likely be at Ft. Meade, Maryland(much more secured premises all around) where the NSA is; or McLean, Virginia where the CIA are headquartered, or any number of a dozen other areas in the DC region where various military interests, intelligence agencies and their associated contractors have condensed.

Fun fact: Police on the shoulder of highway 32, which passes by the NSA, are there not to catch speeders but to prevent people from pulling over along the stretch.
Hmmmm . . . so the building which houses the Secretary of Defense and his deputies along with high ranking liaison officers from most countries in the world is not important enough to provide the most advanced security and monitoring systems . . . the headquarters with the largest single budget of almost any entity in the entire world . . . I guess not . . . :)
 

BombDr

Senior Member.
We are talking about one of the most sensitive buildings on the planet so it's reasonable to assume there must have been a lot of camera's running.
If the government would release camera footage of flight 77 hitting the building it would be a blow to those questioning the official explanation.

The refusal to release the footage can only mean 1 thing... and that is they have a good reason to not release it.

Why do you feel you have the right to it?
 

George B

Extinct but not forgotten Staff Member
And where would the cameras be that captured this? And what were they pointing at?
It would be pointed at the area of the highest threat . . . the beltway and parking lots . . . there would also be cameras pointed at the Pentagon from areas to view the entire exterior . . . just like any other building of high value . . .
 

Mick West

Administrator
Staff member
It would be pointed at the area of the highest threat . . . the beltway . . . there would also be cameras pointed at the Pentagon from areas to view the entire exterior . . . just like any other building of high value . . .

How do you know this?
 

George B

Extinct but not forgotten Staff Member
Why do you feel you have the right to it?
That is a good question . . . I would say that if the government wishes to convince the public their version of events is correct they would use whatever supportive evidence is available . . . since it is most logical this evidence exists . . one conclusion is they are withholding it for some reason . . .
 

BombDr

Senior Member.
Related question: Why do people feel it their right to have instant access to any information they want, about anything?

The people investigating these things are not there to satisfy conspiracy theorists.

Lets just say some new video was released, is that likely to change your mind about anything, or would it simply add another layer of conspiracy like Obamas birth certificate, or Princess Diana's THIRD public enquiry?
 

George B

Extinct but not forgotten Staff Member
Related question: Why do people feel it their right to have instant access to any information they want, about anything?

The people investigating these things are not there to satisfy conspiracy theorists.

Lets just say some new video was released, is that likely to change your mind about anything, or would it simply add another layer of conspiracy like Obamas birth certificate, or Princess Diana's THIRD public enquiry?
You are correct it is a calculated risk to trust your citizens . . . they of course are the ones paying the taxes, spilling their blood and sweat to support the right of the government to deny significant information from them . . .
 

George B

Extinct but not forgotten Staff Member
How do you know this?
I am not a security expert but I have been a military commander and know where cameras are normally placed to monitor important physical assets . . . especially the assets that have been static for years and years . . . of course systems fail or are discovered to be inadequate and it would be most embarrassing to admit that could have happened on 911 . . . there have been many times I have reviewed such tapes to investigate a criminal act to persons or property . . .
 

Mick West

Administrator
Staff member
I am not a security expert but I have been a military commander and know where cameras are normally placed to monitor important physical assets . . . especially the assets that have been static for years and years . . . of course systems fail or are discovered to be inadequate and it would be most embarrassing to admit that could have happened on 911 . . .

Where in this image would you expect there to be cameras?
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...f_Pentagon_Memorial_construction_ceremony.jpg

2001 ref:
http://www.geoffmetcalf.com/pentagon/images/10.jpg

What do you think these cameras would have revealed on 9/11 that

A) Eye witness did not see?
B) Demonstrated it was an inside job?
 

BombDr

Senior Member.
You are correct it is a calculated risk to trust your citizens . . . they of course are the ones paying the taxes, spilling their blood and sweat to support the right of the government to deny significant information from them . . .

Flippancy aside, obviously the people are taxpayers and its soldiers are citizens, but my question is why should the government, which controls a lot of information that is classified feel the need to satisfy conspiracy theorists? The British government tried that and it does not satisfy them, it just makes them more suspicious.

Similarly, why does the reasoning have to be malevolent? The options in this case are:

1. The video will show something other than a plane hitting the Pentagon.
2. The video will show a plane hitting the Pentagon
3. The video will show nothing.

Why does it have to be option 1 in the conspiracy world?

Also, is there any evidence of any extra, but unreleased video in existance?
 

George B

Extinct but not forgotten Staff Member
Where in this image would you expect there to be cameras?
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...f_Pentagon_Memorial_construction_ceremony.jpg

2001 ref:
http://www.geoffmetcalf.com/pentagon/images/10.jpg

What do you think these cameras would have revealed on 9/11 that

A) Eye witness did not see?
B) Demonstrated it was an inside job?
I would expect there to be a security command and control center within the Pentagon with both interior and exterior video cameras 24/7 located on top of the Pentagon and viewing all camera angles as well as cameras from the parking lots and green areas pointed at the building especially at the entrances . . . I don't know it was an inside job . . . eye witnesses are never very reliable . . . however, I am certain more video evidence is available . . .
 

Mick West

Administrator
Staff member
I would expect there to be a security command and control center within the Pentagon with both interior and exterior video cameras 24/7 located on top of the Pentagon and viewing all camera angles as well as cameras from the parking lots and green areas pointed at the building especially at the entrances . . . I don't know it was an inside job . . . eye witnesses are never very reliable . . . however, I am certain more video evidence is available . . .

If it is NOT an inside job, why would they cover it up? What could it possible show that is a problem?
 

Mick West

Administrator
Staff member
http://web.archive.org/web/20080208102217/http://www.flight77.info/85videos.html

View attachment doubletreeaffadavit.pdf

 

George B

Extinct but not forgotten Staff Member
Flippancy aside, obviously the people are taxpayers and its soldiers are citizens, but my question is why should the government, which controls a lot of information that is classified feel the need to satisfy conspiracy theorists? The British government tried that and it does not satisfy them, it just makes them more suspicious.

Similarly, why does the reasoning have to be malevolent? The options in this case are:

1. The video will show something other than a plane hitting the Pentagon.
2. The video will show a plane hitting the Pentagon
3. The video will show nothing.

Why does it have to be option 1 in the conspiracy world?

Also, is there any evidence of any extra, but unreleased video in existance?
To me it doesn't matter whether it is 1, 2 or 3 . . . the US public and the world has a right to know . . . we have all suffered from this event . . . we all should share in the Truth . .
 

George B

Extinct but not forgotten Staff Member
If it is NOT an inside job, why would they cover it up? What could it possible show that is a problem?
It would be one more straw in the utter incompetence of the Bush and previous Administrations . . . they would have lost all credibility in their desire to orchestrate future military and political actions . . . it may have appeared they were so incompetent as to be complicit . . .
 

George B

Extinct but not forgotten Staff Member
http://web.archive.org/web/20080208102217/http://www.flight77.info/85videos.html

View attachment 3181

And you believe this official statement without reservation?
 

BombDr

Senior Member.
To me it doesn't matter whether it is 1, 2 or 3 . . . the US public and the world has a right to know . . . we have all suffered from this event . . . we all should share in the Truth . .

Ok, well lets say they show all the remaining video and it is all version 3, which is what I believe the Pentagon is claiming is the state of its video.

What does that do to settle anything? Will that stop any of the thousands of conspiracy theories?

I'm also not really sure where the 'rights' issue comes into it.
 

Mick West

Administrator
Staff member
To me it doesn't matter whether it is 1, 2 or 3 . . . the US public and the world has a right to know . . . we have all suffered from this event . . . we all should share in the Truth . .

Where does it end though? Should ALL documents that the CIA and the FBI have be released just in case?

It would be one more straw in the utter incompetence of the Bush and previous Administrations . . . they would have lost all credibility in their desire to orchestrate future military and political actions . . . it may have appeared they were so incompetent as to be complicit . . .

What would be one more straw? What would the video show?

And you believe this official statement without reservation?

No, but I see nothing to suggest it is untrue.

This all seems like another last-resort point. No explosive tests, no steel tests, no video footage. This is what the truther arguments boils down to. There is no actual evidence of it being an inside job, so once all the physics has been explained, then all that is left is simply walking as far as you can go, and then calling the point where you can walk no more "suspicious".

If you had the video, then you'd just want the next thing along the road.

If there were explosive tests, then they would want different tests.

If the simulation data was released, they would claim it is faked, and ask for unrestricted access to the computer archives.

If the steel were tested then they would claim the wrong steel was tested.

There's always going to be some desired evidence that :

A) No longer exists
B) Is secret
C) Never existed

So the 9/11 truth movement is NEVER going to stop. No matter what.
 

George B

Extinct but not forgotten Staff Member
Ok, well lets say they show all the remaining video and it is all version 3, which is what I believe the Pentagon is claiming is the state of its video.

What does that do to settle anything? Will that stop any of the thousands of conspiracy theories?

I'm also not really sure where the 'rights' issue comes into it.
These people are civil servants not our Gods . . . the Truth is important . . . no matter what it shows and if it is the truth IMO it will eventually prevail . . .
 

George B

Extinct but not forgotten Staff Member
Where does it end though? Should ALL documents that the CIA and the FBI have be released just in case?
. IMO . . . yes . . .

What would be one more straw? What would the video show?
It should not be the decision of the Government . . . there needs to be a disinterested third party making that decision . . . it would show what it would show . . .


No, but I see nothing to suggest it is untrue.
You are not the person this bothers . . . there are reasonable people who disagree . . .


This all seems like another last-resort point. No explosive tests, no steel tests, no video footage. This is what the truther arguments boils down to. There is no actual evidence of it being an inside job, so once all the physics has been explained, then all that is left is simply walking as far as you can go, and then calling the point where you can walk not more "suspicious".

If you had the video, then you'd just want the next thing along the road.

If there were explosive tests, then they would want different tests.

If the simulation data was released, they would claim it is faked.

If the steel were tested then they would claim the wrong steel was tested.

Then . . . Just allow a disinterested third party to decide . . .

There's always going to be some desired evidence that :

A) No longer exists
B) Is secret
C) Never existed

So the 9/11 truth movement is NEVER going to stop. No matter what.
So get use to the continued distrust and lack of support for the authorities . . . now somewhere below 15% (Congress) in the US . . . maybe lower elsewhere . . .
 

Mick West

Administrator
Staff member
Then . . . Just allow a disinterested third party to decide . . .

Decide what? Which classified CIA/FBI documents should be released?

It would not change anything. The truthers would simply walk a little further along the path, and say the third party is not disinterested after all, or that they did not have full access.

Anyway, you known it's not going to happen. So why not stop, and work with what you have. What's the evidence?
 

George B

Extinct but not forgotten Staff Member
Decide what? Which classified CIA/FBI documents should be released?

It would not change anything. The truthers would simply walk a little further along the path, and say the third party is not disinterested after all, or that they did not have full access.

Anyway, you known it's not going to happen. So why not stop, and work with what you have. What's the evidence?
So investigators should stop when they get frustrated. . . sorry you people ask too many questions so we quit . . . and yes a third pary should rule on classification of information . . . the government should only object . . . Most classified info is pure bunk . . . it's classified to protect embarrassment only . . .
 

Mick West

Administrator
Staff member
So investigators should stop when they get frustrated. . . sorry you people ask too many questions so we quit . . . and yes a third pary should rule on classification of information . . . the government should only object . . . Most classified info is pure bunk . . . it's classified to protect embarrassment only . . .

No. You should recognize that you can always make questions about anything. What about the robot cats?

Instead of wishing for something that is not going to happen (full access to all CIA and FBI databases), why not try making a case with the evidence you have.

It's a sign of a failed argument that people have to resort to "well maybe there's something we don't know, and since they won't tell us, then that proves it!"

The physical evidence indicates a plane hit the pentagon. The wing impacts and the column damage prove it was not a missile. So the evidence just becomes "there MUST have been more video that showed something".
 

Soulfly

Banned
Banned
It would be pointed at the area of the highest threat . . . the beltway and parking lots . . . there would also be cameras pointed at the Pentagon from areas to view the entire exterior . . . just like any other building of high value . . .
You are right, cameras were, at the time, probably pointed at the highest threat. Before 9/11 no one imagined a plane being used like a missile. The highest threat was probably vehicles and pedestrians. Vehicles and pedestrians are not in the sky are they? So cameras were probably all pointed towards the ground in an attempt to capture a face or license plate. Just like the camera at the security gate was pointed to capture a drivers face as they came and/or went.

I haven't read or watched as much about 9/11 so forgive me if this video has ever been posted before but at 11:10 in the video he talks about the Pentagon. I love the 'heavens opening up' music when he actually shows the plane hitting the Pentagon!
 
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