Kona Blue - AARO Report on the Proposed AAWSAP Successor

[Mick West]

AARO has released two documents, and this statement (which is also the first paragraph of the report. :

Article:

The All-domain Anomaly Resolution Office (AARO) first learned of the KONA BLUE program from interviews conducted as part of its historical review. Multiple interviewees identified KONA BLUE as a Department of Homeland Security (DHS) sensitive compartment established to protect the retrieval and exploitation of "non-human biologics." AARO researched the information provided by the interviewees and learned KONA BLUE was a Prospective Special Access Program (PSAP) that had been proposed to DHS leadership but was never approved or formally established. KONA BLUE never received any materials or funding, and there is no information beyond the proposal presentation marked with the KONA BLUE name.

Source: https://www.aaro.mil/UAP-Records-Research/

https://www.aaro.mil/Portals/136/PD...History_and_Origin_of_KONA_BLUE_FINAL_508.pdf

https://www.aaro.mil/Portals/136/PDFs/UAP_RECORDS_RESEARCH/AARO_DHS_Kona_Blue.pdf

 

[NorCal Dave]

From AARO's history of KONA BLUE (bold by me):

When DIA canceled AAWSAP/AATIP, several individuals involved with that program advocated for DHS to take the effort over and fund a new version of AAWSAP/AATIP under the code name “KONA BLUE.” According to the proposal, KONA BLUE would continue the work previously undertaken by DIA’s AAWSAP/AATIP to investigate, identify, and analyze sensitive materials and technologies, to include advanced aerospace vehicles. In 2011, the DHS Under Secretary for Science and Technology (S&T) established KONA BLUE as a PSAP based on claims that relevant information and material existed and required this level of protection. The Under Secretary (S&T) also cited congressional interest in the subject and possible impacts on homeland security as part of the justification for the program.

Content from External Source

https://www.aaro.mil/Portals/136/PD...History_and_Origin_of_KONA_BLUE_FINAL_508.pdf

That's Lacatski and Ried trying to take AAWSAP to DHS:

As the AAWSAP program manager since its beginning at DIA, Lacatski knew that in order to continue the successes achieved and to reach its full potential, the program needed to move out of the Department of Defense (DoD). For FY12, DIA leadership had tried to transfer the program within the DoD, but without success and, unfortunately, missing the fiscal year’s appropriation deadline. Since AAWSAP was not strictly defense-oriented in nature, on February 7, 2011, Lacatski gave a very in depth briefing to colleagues at the Department of Homeland Security (DHS) Science and Technology Directorate.

Content from External Source

And Ried, Lieberman and possibly Hoyer were the interested parties:

Lacatski worked with both senators (Reid and Liberman) to achieve the goal of a new DHS AAWSAP-like effort, but DHS leadership ultimately did not accept the new funding.

For FY14 with the assistance of Congressman Steny Hoyer, and again in FY15, Senator Reid and Lacatski attempted to fund AAWSAP through the DoD. Both attempts failed.

Content from External Source

pg: 27-29 Kelleher, Colm A.. Skinwalkers at the Pentagon: An Insiders' Account of the Secret Government UFO Program. RTMA, LLC. Kindle Edition.

The other PDF is 56 pages, so it's going to take some time to read through and possibly cooperate some people with Lacatski/Kelleher/Knapp's book.

 

[deirdre]

so..basically the guys now clamoring about transparency were trying to hide the fact they were milking the taxpayers so they could continue getting paid to play around with their "pet project" (including SkinWalker Ranch silliness). Nice.

my favorite line* (aside from learning i am a "biosensor"):


*note this was before all the SWR tv shows that told us exactly what the "it" is.

 

[Vlcek]

they were milking the taxpayers so they could continue getting paid to play around with their "pet project" (including SkinWalker Ranch silliness).

Page 32 of the 2nd linked document (AARO_DHS_Kona_Blue.pdf), under "Question 7", seems to be suggesting locations for the proposed research:


Source: https://i.imgur.com/W9Trwq1.png


The Utah property with "a fifteen year history of intense anomalous activity" seems to be Bigelow's property at Skinwalker Ranch. The handful of other suggested locations are all buildings in Las Vegas, where Bigelow Aerospace is headquartered. I'm not sure how common it is for a SAP request to include specific suggestions like this, but it gives the impression of a sales pitch for renting out Bigelow's properties to the government.

 

[deirdre]

The Utah property with "a fifteen year history of intense anomalous activity" seems to be Bigelow's property at Skinwalker Ranch.

the ufo community will recognize that ALOT of the proposal harkens directly back to research at Skinwalker Ranch. Quite telling that Bigelow was not willing to pay for continued research himself (or he wouldnt have sold it).

Sorry if i sound overly snarky, our underserved schools are disintegrating and the amount of PAID time they spent pondering this and writing it up and making others read it and discuss it [according to the data my biosensors picked up] ..is highly irritating to me.

 

[NorCal Dave]

Quite telling that Bigelow was not willing to pay for continued research himself (or he wouldnt have sold it).

He did pay for it himself with NIDS and had nothing to show for it, so he shut it down. He was willing to try again with taxpayer money, but as you say, when that ran out he gave up.

 

[John J.]

Sorry if i sound overly snarky

You're showing a perfectly reasonable response by a person who hasn't been taken in by nonsense IMHO.

The sheer brass-necked shamelessness of (almost certainly) some of the "usual suspects", or people operating on their behalf, trying to replace or resurrect AAWSAP / AATIP, just as the US Defence Intelligence Agency was realising what a crock they had authorized with that/ those program(s).

Re. AAWSAP / AATIP,

Bigelow Aerospace, headquartered in Nevada, served as the primary contractor executing funds for the program and delivered multiple reports during the period of their contract. DIA terminated the program due to a cited lack of merit and lack of utility in the products Bigelow produced for DIA’s mission.

Content from External Source

(My emphasis), History and Origin of KONA BLUE, The All-domain Anomaly Resolution Office, as posted by Mick above
(https://www.aaro.mil/Portals/136/PD...History_and_Origin_of_KONA_BLUE_FINAL_508.pdf)

Let's not forget,

AARO has yet to uncover any other substantive UAP case work conducted by AAWSAP/AATIP. Instead, AAWSAP/AATIP reviewed a large number of Project BLUE BOOK and private cases and conducted interviews of UAP observers and conducted unrelated work on alleged paranormal activities at the private sector organization’s property in Utah.

Content from External Source

-Again my emphasis, the property in Utah is highly likely to be Bigelow's Skinwalker Ranch.

AAWSAP/AATIP was terminated in 2012 upon the completion of its deliverables due to DIA and DoD concerns about the project.
After AAWSAP/AATIP was terminated, its supporters unsuccessfully attempted to convince DHS to support a new version of this effort dubbed KONA BLUE.

Content from External Source

AARO assesses that the inaccurate claim that the USG is reverse-engineering extraterrestrial technology and is hiding it from Congress is, in large part, the result of circular reporting from a group of individuals who believe this to be the case, despite the lack of any evidence.
...modern instances of these claims largely stem from a consistent group of individuals who have been involved in various UAP-related endeavors since at least 2009.

Many of these individuals were involved in or supportive of a cancelled DIA program and the subsequent but failed attempt to reestablish this program under DHS, called KONA BLUE.

Content from External Source

-Above quotes from Report on the Historical Record of U.S. Government Involvement with Unidentified Anomalous Phenomena (UAP), Volume 1, All-Domain Anomaly Resolution Office, Department of Defense, February 2024
The above report is discussed here (link) AARO's Historical UAP Report - Volume 1, PDF of report attached below.

Bigelow and associates produced material with a lack of merit and lack of utility at the taxpayer's expense.
When the DIA belatedly realised this, it seems the same persons responsible for this wasteful nonsense (or their close confederates) proposed that they should be allowed to continue in similar vein, again under the veil of secrecy conferred by a special access program, but this time under the Department of Homeland Security.

Thank goodness that Kona Blue was rejected.
And it's hopefully significant that AARO has identified "...a consistent group of individuals..." responsible for both AAWSAP and Kona Blue (and possibly the Grusch non-event and no doubt expensive Congressional hearings).

 

[john.phil]

Page 18 of the AARO_DHS_Kona_Blue pdf:

Consciousness Center

• Expand on remote viewing and remote communication to communicate, retrieve data, and transport across dimensional/space-time barrier
• Develop remote viewing countermeasures

Question 2

2. Justification for Need

a) Remote vision, remote communication, and de/re-materialization techniques to observe, communicate, retrieve data, and transfer matter across dimensional and space-time barriers will undoubtedly be of an utmost interest if not a top collection priority for adversarial intelligence/security services. Countermeasures against such techniques would also be a collection priority.

Content from External Source

 

[JMartJr]

Page 18 of the AARO_DHS_Kona_Blue pdf:

That is approaching "Magic wands would be so useful we're justified in spending money to try and find some" levels...

 

[john.phil]

That is approaching "Magic wands would be so useful we're justified in spending money to try and find some" levels...

They were also going to provide training. Page 28 of the AARO DHS Kona Blue pdf:

5. Consciousness Center

The Consciousness Center manages the acquisition, training, and utilization of remote viewers and communicators. These unorthodox techniques may prove to be critical collection methods for supplementing efforts within the Data Collection, Advanced Technology, and, especially, the Experimental and Medical Centers.

• Develop training and quality assessment program for consciousness studies.
• Conduct assessments both remotely and on-site.
• Conduct assessments with both experts in field and newly trained personnel.
• As an initial study, focus capabilities on all known hot spots (locations with repeated/frequent reports of activity).
• Extend remote communication programs to communicate and retrieve data across dimensional/space-time barrier.
• Develop remote viewing and remote communication countermeasures.
• Study consciousness interactions with, and control of, technology.
• Conduct experiments to determine baseline parameters for physical transport across dimensional/space-time barrier (as opposed to communication and data transfer only).

Deliverables:

• Experimental results and assessment reports will be produced on each separate activity. Results and reports will be maintained separate from other data reports.

Content from External Source

 

[john.phil]

Page 32 of the AARO DHS Kona Blue pdf, about physical addresses available for Kona Blue.

Question 7

A new five building (small 1 and 2 story) complex in Las Vegas, NV is available. One building in the complex is a five-thousand square foot building containing a 1250 square foot area (2 rooms) in the latter stages of SCIF accreditation. Another building is outfitted as a five-thousand square foot laboratory. The building complex is owned by (redacted) and has never been occupied.

A single two story building in Las Vegas, NV is available for the use of the Data Collection Center and the Educational Center. One room is certified for TS storage by DSS. The building is owned by (redacted) and is currently unoccupied.

A four hundred eighty-acre research property in Utah with a fifteen year history of intensive anomalous activity is owned by (redacted). The property is under 24/7 armed guard.

Content from External Source

From the above, it sounds like Skinwalker Ranch was one of the places they were planning to install government-funded sensors, Page 25 of the AARO DHS Kona Blue pdf:

The mission of the Experimental Centers is to establish a comprehensive program that:

• Initiating development of a catalog of geographical locations within the U.S. (including the aquatic and space environments) where Advanced Aerospace Vehicle (AAV) and related anomalous activity occur with a level of repeatability that merits consideration for site-monitoring studies.
• Assembly and deployment of suites of sensor components and instrumentation capable of providing all-band detection and recording of environmental variables at the sites of interest. Land-based examples would include such technical monitoring as registration of atmospheric conditions, acoustic background, electromagnetic field activity, broadband radiation including IR, visible, and UV portions of the spectrum, gravitational perturbation signals, radiation readings and ground traces, and so forth. Furthermore, where relevant, inputs from regional radar and satellite imagery are to be included.

Content from External Source

Page 44 lists three proposed locations for deploying sensors:

(U) Project Plan
(S/TVSACO) (...) For example, ongoing observations and recording of anomalies observed at sites at the Bigelow Ranch in Utah, the San Juan Valley in Colorado, and Marley's Woods in Missouri. Additional relevant classified material is believed to exist within other governmental special access programs and will be accessed for this effort. Much of this material has been collated into an active and searchable data base maintained by the former National Institute of Discovery Science, a data compilation and analysis function of the former government program.

Content from External Source

 

[john.phil]

"Magic wands would be so useful we're justified in spending money to try and find some"

Exactly what Dr. Tara O'Toole, Under Secretary for Science & Technology, said. Page 38 of the AARO DHS Kona Blue pdf:

(FOUO) A brief discussion was also held concerning why DHS was selected to conduct this research. Dr. O'Toole explained that the Senators felt that the technologies involved effected the security of the United States and was more than worthy of further investigation. Dr. O'Toole explained that there is very serious science involved with this program and that she felt the US Government had the responsibility to continue its investigation. She further stated that if only a small portion of the research provided viable results for DHS application it would be worth it.

Content from External Source

 

[MapperGuy]

AARO has released two documents, and this statement (which is also the first paragraph of the report. :

Article:

The All-domain Anomaly Resolution Office (AARO) first learned of the KONA BLUE program from interviews conducted as part of its historical review. Multiple interviewees identified KONA BLUE as a Department of Homeland Security (DHS) sensitive compartment established to protect the retrieval and exploitation of "non-human biologics." AARO researched the information provided by the interviewees and learned KONA BLUE was a Prospective Special Access Program (PSAP) that had been proposed to DHS leadership but was never approved or formally established. KONA BLUE never received any materials or funding, and there is no information beyond the proposal presentation marked with the KONA BLUE name.

Source: https://www.aaro.mil/UAP-Records-Research/

https://www.aaro.mil/Portals/136/PD...History_and_Origin_of_KONA_BLUE_FINAL_508.pdf

https://www.aaro.mil/Portals/136/PDFs/UAP_RECORDS_RESEARCH/AARO_DHS_Kona_Blue.pdf

Only had time to do a quick read through of the attached documents so far.

I can understand the decision to not stand up this organization.

They are proposing to do a whole lot of work on many very different topics and to do so with almost no money (for a government program that is). And nowhere that I saw did they have the guts to say that AAV's (Advanced Aerospace Vehicles) are flying saucers piloted by non-human intelligences.

 

[NorCal Dave]

Page 18 of the AARO_DHS_Kona_Blue pdf:

Consciousness Center

• Expand on remote viewing and remote communication to communicate, retrieve data, and transport across dimensional/space-time barrier
• Develop remote viewing countermeasures

Question 2

2. Justification for Need

a) Remote vision, remote communication, and de/re-materialization techniques to observe, communicate, retrieve data, and transfer matter across dimensional and space-time barriers will undoubtedly be of an utmost interest if not a top collection priority for adversarial intelligence/security services. Countermeasures against such techniques would also be a collection priority.

Content from External Source

This is mostly Hal Puthoff's gig. In short, as a legit PhD laser scientist, he and fellow PhD physicist Russel Targ got out of their lane and conducted something more like Behavioral Psychology experiments into various versions of Psy, including remote viewing and tele-kinesis. This was done in the '70s at the Stanford Research Institue (SRI) at the behest of some in the CIA, who thought the Soviets were doing it.

Puthoff and Targ were quickly fooled by the likes of spoon-bender Uri Gehler and so called "remote viewers" Igo Swann and Joe McMoneagle. Actual psychologists found their work sub-par and CIA moved on from them by 1980.

In the '90s, Puthoff was back at it with Bigelow's NIDS research group at SWR. That folded in the early '00s but when Bigelow's BAASS won the bid for AAWSAP, he brought Puthoff back again.

This time Putohoff's EarthTech company either wrote or contracted all the 36 DIDR papers that seemed to be the only legitimate thing AAWSAP did. Even then, these papers are speculative at best and ScFy at worst. And despite AAWSAP rejecting BAASS's proposal to dabble in "remote viewing", they did it anyway with Puthoff and his old buddy Joe McMoneagle correctly remotely identifying an unknown location. Of course, that unknow location was SWR.

Clearly Lacaski and somebody else was still trying to help Puthoff get more tax money for his various experiments. He was/is still very connected to certain parts of the UFO world and those UFOlogist in government. He also like to have himself listed as "CIA" when on various podcast/YouTube appearances. It suggests he was "in the CIA" not just a contractor to the CIA.

EDIT: correct names.

 

[deirdre]

I can understand the decision to not stand up this organization.

They are proposing to do a whole lot of work on many very different topics and to do so with almost no money

actually their ridiculously large scope was the biggest red flag.

 

[Ann K]

actually their ridiculously large scope was the biggest red flag.

Actually their promises to deliver on wholly imaginary concepts was the biggest red flag.

 

[John J.]

They are proposing to do a whole lot of work on many very different topics and to do so with almost no money

The Kona Blue advocates were presumably hoping to get DHS funding on a similar level to what they (or their associates) got for AAWSAP from the DoD.

Edited to add: AAWSAP / AATIP received what, $24 million? -for work judged to be of little merit or utility.
The AARO 2024 vol.1 makes it clear that some of the same people wanted to

reestablish this program under DHS, called KONA BLUE

Content from External Source

( Report on the Historical Record of U.S. Government Involvement with Unidentified Anomalous Phenomena (UAP), Volume 1, All-Domain Anomaly Resolution Office, Department of Defense, February 2024, link in #7).

So, contracted work and "product" is found wanting by one Government department (DoD), but the team behind the sub-standard work submit a bid to do essentially identical work for a different Government department.
Shouldn't be allowed.

 

[deirdre]

Actually their promises to deliver on wholly imaginary concepts was the biggest red flag.

I must have missed the part where they "promised to deliver".

it's not the first time our government funded wholly imaginary concepts.

 

[Ann K]

I must have missed the part where they "promised to deliver".

"Expand on remote viewing and remote communication to communicate, retrieve data, and transport across dimensional/space-time barrier

Remote vision, remote communication, and de/re-materialization techniques to observe, communicate, retrieve data, and transfer matter across dimensional and space-time barriers will undoubtedly be of an utmost interest"

They wanted to "expand" on something that isn't even a thing. I read that as a promise.

 

[NorCal Dave]

So, contracted work and "product" is found wanting by one Government department (DoD), but the team behind the sub-standard work submit a bid to do essentially identical work for a different Government department.
Shouldn't be allowed.

Not exactly.

The people that "bid" and produced sub-standard work would arguably be BAASS. They weren't trying to "bid" to another agency. Rather the folks that ran AAWSAP and contracted with BAASS were trying to move the program to a different part of the government. They were just going to take BAASS along with them.

I don't know how often this happens, but in this case after the DIA of the DoD saw what $24 million was getting them, they canceled the program. However, money for things like this come from congress and in the case of AAWSAP, its primary proponent was Senator Reid (D NV). At the time he was the Majority Leader in the Senate, arguably one of the 3-4 most powerful positions in all of the US government. Reid also had well respected Senator Liberman (D CN), Senator Stevens (R AL) and maybe the 2nd ranking Democrat in the House, Stenny Hoyer (D MD) at least sponsoring his bid to fund a AAWSAP follow up. It's Reid and Lacatski that tried to shift AAWSAP from DIA to DHS with the new cool sounding name KONA BLUE. The contractor BAASS was just along for the ride, though the head of BAASS and Reid campaign donator Bigelow stood to have his pet project funded by the taxpayers for a few more years.

The interesting thing is that these various bureaucracies managed to say NO to money from the leader of the Senate. Maybe a comment on how fringe most people took the proposals.

 

[Mendel]

That is approaching "Magic wands would be so useful we're justified in spending money to try and find some" levels...

no, it's "wouldn't it be a danger if the Russians have magic wands and we don't". It's playing on fears, and the precedent of the Sputnik shock.

It's the same fearmongering that Graves & co do, with "what if those UAPs were foreign adversary technology". Fearmongering is the #1 method of the populist, and large parts of the public have gotten used to it. But history teaches us that letting fear mongers run a country is not a good idea.

They wanted to "expand" on something that isn't even a thing.

Puthoff thinks it's a thing, though.

 

[deirdre]

It's the same fearmongering that Graves & co do, with "what if those UAPs were foreign adversary technology". Fearmongering is the #1 method of the populist, and large parts of the public have gotten used to it. But history teaches us that letting fear mongers run a country is not a good idea.

While i agree fearmongering is not a good idea, to be fair: all groups fearmonger. Not sure it's fair to point a finger at Graves and co. specifically as if they are doing something abnormal to the human species.

 

[RTM]

While i agree fearmongering is not a good idea, to be fair: all groups fearmonger. Not sure it's fair to point a finger at Graves and co. specifically as if they are doing something abnormal to the human species.

No, but it's somewhat ironic that dangers of UAP are invoked for more funding when they have never caused an issue, but Mick gets laughed at about seagulls and birds when they cause more issues with aircraft.

I know this mainly comes from their supporters, but these are the people who are trying to be courted via a respectable route.

 

[FatPhil]

While i agree fearmongering is not a good idea, to be fair: all groups fearmonger. Not sure it's fair to point a finger at Graves and co. specifically as if they are doing something abnormal to the human species.

I'd replace "all groups fearmonger" with "all groups large enough such that they have in bulk lost both precision and accuracy, and who need to rely on a nebulous rally in order for their followers to keep following them, fearmonger". Fearmongering is indeed a well-known, effective, and consequently widely used, stressor - it will move people.

Thank goodness we don't do that, eh?, fellow Metabunkers!

(That was ironic, because we don't. We're disagreeing with fairly high precision and accuracy all the time, but deliberately with low damage. Shining lights, but not in the eyes.)

 

[Mendel]

While i agree fearmongering is not a good idea, to be fair: all groups fearmonger.

This is rude, insulting, and unsupported by evidence.
Cal OES does not monger fear (Earthquake warnings). The NOAA NHC does not monger fear (hurricane warnings).

Not sure it's fair to point a finger at Graves and co. specifically as if they are doing something abnormal to the human species.

Metabunk exists to point a finger at bunk, even though you could argue that myth and folklore (and thus, bunk) are as old as humanity itself. Groups whose core of being is founded on fearmongering and bunk should be pointed at, whether it's AE911 or antivaxxers, just to name a few. Please don't normalize what these groups are doing, and please don't imply that every group is as bad as that.

Remote vision, remote communication, and de/re-materialization techniques to observe, communicate, retrieve data, and transfer matter across dimensional and space-time barriers will undoubtedly be of an utmost interest if not a top collection priority for adversarial intelligence/security services. Countermeasures against such techniques would also be a collection priority.

Content from External Source

The claim that adversaries could use technologies that are impossible against us is pure fear mongering, and that fact deserves to be pointed out. They're using bunk to further their agenda.

 

[FatPhil]

> All groups fearmonger
This is rude, insulting, and unsupported by evidence.

How about: All groups who are prepared to use any rhetorical or manipulative device available to them, and who understand the power of fearmongering, fearmonger?

Yeah, I'm making it tautologically true, but I'm trying to find common ground. "X does Y" sometimes means "The X who can do Y, or would benefit from doing Y, do Y".

So I'd say don't be insulted, it's a hasty generalisation, that's all.

 

[Skalman]

Are these kind of proposals usually this vague? If I didn't already know what it was about, I would be quite puzzled trying to understand what it was that they wanted to do. It feels like they were trying to obfuscate what they were doing and using the political backing they had as the leverage, as in "look, this will be funded by Congress if you approve it, what do you have to lose? C'mon!"

It's also fascinating to me that these are the only documents the department had. I would have thought there would at least be a few more emails and maybe some notes from the meetings. I couldn't find an explanation stated anywhere as to why it was turned down, but I'm thinking that is a saving grace for the people involved. They had absolutely nothing to show from AAWSAP/AATIP that could justify this expansion. And even if you were convinced that there were non-human crafts threatening US airspace, some of these suggestions are extremely frivolous. A full-time medical team, for what purpose? Even if you assume that every case of purported UFO-related injury or disease were factual, what would that amount to? Also, judging by the things they listed, they would need more than one doctor since I'm pretty sure that MRI scanning and biopsies fall under different specialities.

But the most outrageous proposal, in my opinion, seems to be the suggestion that they train a hundred volunteers. They are proposing a secret government program that they claim have huge implications for national security and they want to have a hundred unpaid people there, who no doubt would be recruited from UFO/woo interest groups, a population rife with conspiracy theorists and people who favour total disclosure on the subject. It seems like such a huge security risk that it is insane that they even proposed it.

I'm not very hostile towards an actual research program/government entity purtaining to the subject matter (like AARO), but even if it had been my decision I would've struck this proposal down, since it is extremely vague, the rationale for some parts of it is, even in the context, unfounded and it contains a huge security risk built into it and the people involved clearly have an agenda and despite the millions in funding they had already gotten, they had absoluty zilch to show for it. Even if I were a believer, it would have been clear to me that these people were not the correct choice to head any government programs of any sort.

 

[deirdre]

I'd replace "all groups fearmonger" with "all groups large enough such that they have in bulk lost both precision and accuracy, and who need to rely on a nebulous rally in order for their followers to keep following them, fearmonger".

I dont think they need to have "in bulk lost both precision and accuracy". most activists use fear mongering, I didnt say it was a bad thing. I said it was normal human thing.

No, but it's somewhat ironic that dangers of UAP are invoked for more funding when they have never caused an issue

actually it would be nice if government made seat belt laws and toxic dump laws BEFORE a bunch of people got killed. or Congress passed an abortion law when Ruth Bader told them to. or we had a Pandemic Plan in place BEFORE the pandemic.

yes controlling interdimensional attacks with remote viewing sounds ridiculous, but i imagine many government proposals invoke [rightly] fearmongering to some extent. I acknowledge that some groups think some things are silly to be fearful of, but i was just making a general statement about one specific group being pointed out and shamed for engaging in rather common behavior.

 

[Mendel]

engaging in rather common behavior

still no evidence that it's common

 

[yoshy]

so..basically the guys now clamoring about transparency were trying to hide the fact they were milking the taxpayers so they could continue getting paid to play around with their "pet project" (including SkinWalker Ranch silliness). Nice.

my favorite line* (aside from learning i am a "biosensor"):


*note this was before all the SWR tv shows that told us exactly what the "it" is.

It's so surprising to me that it seems like there's no discussion of this outside of here. This Kona Blue fiasco seems to be inarguably an instance of grifting and dishonesty on the part of the UAP folks. This revelation should be the end of the entire charade. To me, it removes the possibility of them being well-meaning, honest believers.

 

[jarlrmai]

It's so surprising to me that it seems like there's no discussion of this outside of here. This Kona Blue fiasco seems to be inarguably an instance of grifting and dishonesty on the part of the UAP folks. This revelation should be the end of the entire charade. To me, it removes the possibility of them being well-meaning, honest believers.

We and maybe Greenstreet are seemingly the only people really interested in the web of grifters and true believers that's got the modern reboot of ufology this far.

 

[MapperGuy]

It's so surprising to me that it seems like there's no discussion of this outside of here. This Kona Blue fiasco seems to be inarguably an instance of grifting and dishonesty on the part of the UAP folks. This revelation should be the end of the entire charade. To me, it removes the possibility of them being well-meaning, honest believers.

If you wander through posts on the Reddit/UFOs site you will find people who seem to have come to the conclusion that Kona Blue was a scam. But of course there will also people claiming its a "smoking gun" proving aliens.

The breadth of what Kona Blue was going to be doing seemed implausible too many.

 

[NorCal Dave]

It's so surprising to me that it seems like there's no discussion of this outside of here. This Kona Blue fiasco seems to be inarguably an instance of grifting and dishonesty on the part of the UAP folks. This revelation should be the end of the entire charade.

Part of it I think, is it never happened. It was just a proposal that, despite Reid the Senate Majority Leader pushing for it, never got off the ground. Another part is it's convoluted. We can read between the lines and see what they were trying to do because we nerd out on this stuff, the average person doesn't really care.

As for the committed UFOlogist, I think very few of them see a problem with it. In their mind the US government has been hiding evidence of UFO and aliens since at least Roswell and maybe earlier. If this is what it takes to expose that, then so be it.

Lacatski, who was helping to get KONA BLUE up and running, wrote his own book, more or less bragging that the RFP for AAWSAP was vague and vailed and only Bigelow, doner to Reid, understood what was REALLY going on.

And not to beat a dead horse, but they had Reid backing them, one of the most powerful men government. It's how the sausage is made, would be their argument. Or was almost made.

To me, it removes the possibility of them being well-meaning, honest believers.

Not disagreeing or defending the UFOlogists involved, BUT where does one draw the line between grifter and delusional. There's plenty of folks selling snake-oil knowing full well it's just water, but there is also plenty of people selling just water (homeopathy) really believing it will help.

When a strongly held belief intersects with a revenue stream, it's a strong reinforcement of the belief. Now throw in the backing of the US government (Reid) and not only is it a potential revenue stream, but it's also doing a good deed and revealing the "truth" that was hidden.

I think there was a lot of grifting going on, I'm just not sure how many of them thought they were grifting.

 

[Mendel]

It's so surprising to me that it seems like there's no discussion of this outside of here.

The people behind Kona Blue, the ones accused by Kirkpatrick, and their friends, aren't going to push this topic. But AARO didn't name them, so there's not a lot of news story there.

Is it possible that Grusch found this proposal and assumed that this program was actually stood up, in secrecy? Should he be commenting on it?

 

[LilWabbit]

It's so surprising to me that it seems like there's no discussion of this outside of here. This Kona Blue fiasco seems to be inarguably an instance of grifting and dishonesty on the part of the UAP folks. This revelation should be the end of the entire charade. To me, it removes the possibility of them being well-meaning, honest believers.

Earlier there's been great pushback and taking offence on behalf of these 'grifters' even here on Metabunk because such an observation of fact (grifting happening and being harmful behaviour rather than a self-righteous condemnation by skeptics of the evil of the persons involved) is easily deemed an ad hominem attack on believers which it isn't. The (naive) assumption of the true believers always being absolutely sincere is implicit in the politeness guideliness. It's a sensitive tightrope to tread. I believe we can be polite (including yours truly) without pandering to naive assumptions on the human nature.

Secondly, there's still the odd bothsidesist misconception of 'impartiality' bandied about by believers in these conversations as a standard of truth, even on this thread. Namely, that in the UFO flap, UFO skepticsm and ufologism are equally poorly supported by evidence and equally up for grabs scientifically. And yet it takes but a little Bayes' method to establish for oneself the evident fact that there's a vast amount of evidentiary priors to the phenomenon of strong prior belief creating selection bias and other bias in observation, scientific pursuit or other data-collection, whilst there are zero priors of clear and hard evidence on alien visitations. The evidence is simply not equal on both sides even at the outset of any further investigations. The burden of proof is really on the claimant of any epistemological equivalence between these two alternatives.

Fortunately, we have even more than that to sway us on the 'side' of skepticism. We have ample evidence, compiled and analyzed in multiple threads at Metabunk, regarding historical 'UAP investigation entities' and their various recruits invariably being affiliated with a known group of staunch UFO believers and hence supporting the hypothesis 'strong belief precedes and unduly informs most known UAP investigations'. In fact, AARO seems to be the first one to have started on a cleaner slate, thanks in part to Sean Kirkpatrick.

Small wonder, then, that AARO is also the most criticized entity by the believers. The closed loop of circular citations amongst seemingly 'credible' but ultimately biased 'witnesses' to programs has also been stated many times earlier on MB and it's satisfying to see Sean Kirkptarick uncovered this very same feedback loop as his main result.

 

[yoshy]

Earlier there's been great pushback and taking offence on behalf of these 'grifters' even here on Metabunk because such an observation of fact (grifting happening and being harmful behaviour rather than a self-righteous condemnation by skeptics of the evil of the persons involved) is easily deemed an ad hominem attack on believers which it isn't. The (naive) assumption of the true believers always being absolutely sincere is implicit in the politeness guideliness. It's a sensitive tightrope to tread. I believe we can be polite (including yours truly) without pandering to naive assumptions on the human nature.

Very good points, and I have come to love and see the utility of the politeness guidelines on this forum (even though I am often a little too close to violating them). It forces us to engage on the actual claims, providing empirical and logic dedunking instead of immediately writing off things that are obviously said (again, something I would be tempted do). In this case, I don't see an explanation that doesn't involve delibrate lying on the believers' part. I wonder if it's time and even within the rules of the website to directly make the accusation "There is deliberate misleading, lying, grifting, whatever you want to call it by member of this group".

Secondly, there's still the odd bothsidesist misconception of 'impartiality' bandied about by believers in these conversations as a standard of truth, even on this thread. Namely, that in the UFO flap, UFO skepticsm and ufologism are equally poorly supported by evidence and equally up for grabs scientifically. And yet it takes but a little Bayes' method to establish for oneself the evident fact that there's a vast amount of evidentiary priors to the phenomenon of strong prior belief creating selection bias and other bias in observation, scientific pursuit or other data-collection, whilst there are zero priors of clear and hard evidence on alien visitations. The evidence is simply not equal on both sides even at the outset of any further investigations. The burden of proof is really on the claimant of any epistemological equivalence between these two alternatives.

Fortunately, we have even more than that to sway us on the 'side' of skepticism. We have ample evidence, compiled and analyzed in multiple threads at Metabunk, regarding historical 'UAP investigation entities' and their various recruits invariably being affiliated with a known group of staunch UFO believers and hence supporting the hypothesis 'strong belief precedes and unduly informs most known UAP investigations'. In fact, AARO seems to be the first one to have started on a cleaner slate, thanks in part to Sean Kirkpatrick.

Small wonder, then, that AARO is also the most criticized entity by the believers. The closed loop of circular citations amongst seemingly 'credible' but ultimately biased 'witnesses' to programs has also been stated many times earlier on MB and it's satisfying to see Sean Kirkptarick uncovered this very same feedback loop as his main result.

*Chef's kiss* for your writing here.

 

[Ann K]

There is deliberate misleading, lying, grifting, whatever you want to call it by member of this groop

I think in almost all cases it is more likely that there is deliberate misleading, lying, grifting by outsiders who have managed to fool members of this group. Some people are less skeptical / more gullible than others, and unfortunately those people are the natural prey of the liars and grifters. I think the members to which you refer are more likely to be misled rather than duplicitous.

 

[NorCal Dave]

I wonder if it's time and even within the rules of the website to directly make the accusation "There is deliberate misleading, lying, grifting, whatever you want to call it by member of this groop".

I agree, but...

Who exactly do we accuse? If, for example, Lacatski who set up and ran AAWSAP and tried and failed to get KONA BLUE going told AARO that there was an operational secret program, KONA BLUE, actively recovering and reverse engineering UAPs, that would be pretty blatant. However, if someone like Puthoff heard bits and parts about the new program BAASS might be working on and he would be contracting to and passed that along to AARO, is he lying or mistaken? He could certainly be blowing what he heard out of proportion or assuming that the program did take off, but he wasn't part of it.

Even in the case of Lacatski, he was at DIA in the DoD and while Reid had him pitch the new AAWSAP as KONA BLUE to DHS, who's to say he would have had anything to do with it. I don't know enough about government to say a person at DoD's DIA would just slide over to DHS to run 1 program. His main job was as a missile analyst, AAWSAP was a side hustle. He could have made his pitch for a new AAWSAP, got rejected and stayed at DIA. He then hears about DHS setting up an SAP called KONA BLUE based on his pitch, but again it's at DHS.

He then goes to AARO and says DHS was or did set up KONA BLUE, not knowing that it never went anywhere.

I sound like I'm trying to convince myself of these guys sincerity. It's just that they remind me of an old friend I've mentioned before. Tim used to tell some wild ass stories, but he'd been telling them for so long he believed them to an extent. We called them Timmy Tales and any logical pointing out of why the story could not have occurred as told fell on deaf ears.

If one has spent the last 30-40 years thinking the government has UFOs that they are hiding and reverse engineering, then any trickle of information that might confirm that is passed along as factual.

 

[deirdre]

I agree, but...

Who exactly do we accuse?

we don't. we wait il the government finishes the investigation, i imagine they are pursuing, and see what comes of it.

i'm not judging anyone for ad homining.. i enjoy that too at times (esp once i'm bored with 5 years of repeat claims).. but the public face of MB is supposed to focused more on specific claims. not the people who make them.

 

[Landru]

I believe it is more important to present evidence that people are incorrect rather than labeling them as liars and grifters.