EgyptAir flight MS804

Whitebeard

Senior Member.
This is a breaking / on going story, so facts and details may change.

The flight from Paris Charles de Gaul to Cairo was reported missing at 00;30 (gmt) just after leaving Greek airspace and entering Egyptian airspace and disappearing from radar. Greek ATC reported radio contact with the plane a few minutes before and reported all appeared 'normal'.

Latest reports suggest the plane has come down the Eastern Mediterranean.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-36309492

Needless to say a quick trawl of the conspirasphere will find comments like

from - https://forum.davidicke.com/showthread.php?t=307741&page=2 (but there are plenty of others)

Of course this is all wild CT speculation, but I thought I would start this thread to be ahead of the curve incase any of the wilder speculation gains traction before the real evidence comes to light.
 

Whitebeard

Senior Member.
Latest reports say wreckage has been located
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-36330879
The Greeks are also claiming 'terrorist attack' (a tad too soon in my opinion)
http://www.theguardian.com/world/live/2016/may/19/egyptair-plane-cairo-paris-live-updates

And here is a screen shot from https://www.vesselfinder.com/ showing three merchant ships assisting the search of the crash area
search for ms804.jpg
 
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NoParty

Senior Member.
I think we have a classic example of the unreliability of Google time-stamps here:

I just looked for stories about Trump's premature assertions about EgyptAir Flight MS804, which went missing earlier today.
My initial search, at about 2141 PDT, 19 May, 2016 showed a New Republic article supposedly dated "3 days ago" :eek:



Google Time Stamp 2+ Days Off.png
 

Mick West

Administrator
Staff member
There's a conspiracy theory that planes are crashng because the chemtrail equipment is blowing up:

http://www.look-up.org.uk/yet-another-a320-goes-down/
 

vooke

Active Member
There's a conspiracy theory that planes are crashng because the chemtrail equipment is blowing up:

http://www.look-up.org.uk/yet-another-a320-goes-down/
Unremarkable and utterly ridiculous. Chemtrails CTs are largely North American and European or first world phenomena. So what would an Egyptian jet be spraying?
 

vooke

Active Member
I think we have a classic example of the unreliability of Google time-stamps here:

I just looked for stories about Trump's premature assertions about EgyptAir Flight MS804, which went missing earlier today.
My initial search, at about 2141 PDT, 19 May, 2016 showed a New Republic article supposedly dated "3 days ago" :eek:



View attachment 19216
I can't authoritatively back it but I think this mismatch occurs on pages with multiple entries on different days
 

Clunk

New Member
There are a couple of points about this that are difficult to match up with the idea of a bomb on board completely destroying the aircraft in flight.
Firstly, if you are a terrorist and clever enough to secrete a device on the aircraft (no matter where it was done: Cairo, Paris or the other two destinations that day) why have it blow up near the end of it's trip over uninhabited sea and not northern France, for example?
Secondly, if it was 'blown out of the sky', where are the bits? Especially seat cushions, life jackets, interior furnishings etc that float? There should at least be some to be found.
Thirdly, and most importantly, radio contact was lost with the aircraft whilst it was still at cruise flight level and it was seen to remain there for a time until the descent and 'turns' happened. (These turns allegedly made were mentioned by the Greeks, but no source for the data was given).
 

TEEJ

Senior Member.
The footage claiming to show MS804 on fire is re-cycled Russian space debris footage filmed in the US.
 

Auldy

Senior Member.
Secondly, if it was 'blown out of the sky', where are the bits? Especially seat cushions, life jackets, interior furnishings etc that float? There should at least be some to be found.
It has been (now), some patience please for search efforts @Clunk .


http://m.smh.com.au/world/egyptair-...found-off-egyptian-coast-20160520-gp0b49.html
 

JRBids

Senior Member.
There are a couple of points about this that are difficult to match up with the idea of a bomb on board completely destroying the aircraft in flight.
Firstly, if you are a terrorist and clever enough to secrete a device on the aircraft (no matter where it was done: Cairo, Paris or the other two destinations that day) why have it blow up near the end of it's trip over uninhabited sea and not northern France, for example?
Why would they necessarily be "that clever"?

Secondly, if it was 'blown out of the sky', where are the bits? Especially seat cushions, life jackets, interior furnishings etc that float? There should at least be some to be found.
If you are claiming it wasn't "blown out of the sky", where is the whole plane?

Thirdly, and most importantly, radio contact was lost with the aircraft whilst it was still at cruise flight level and it was seen to remain there for a time until the descent and 'turns' happened. (These turns allegedly made were mentioned by the Greeks, but no source for the data was given).
The fact that the plane was at cruising level when contact was lost would indicate a catastrophic failure (i.e. from a bomb), otherwise why wouldn't the pilots radio that they were in trouble? The descent and "turns" were pieces plummeting from the sky and breaking into pieces.
 

Clunk

New Member
Crikey, you lot. It's as if you think I'm claiming that it's been captured by aliens and hidden somewhere!!

I meant:
If it were "blown out of the sky" ie a catastrophic explosion at 37,000, then there would be a large debris field and an easily-detected amount of stuff on the sea surface over a large area. Since it has taken so long to find anything, then this suggests that this is not the case.

JRBids:
"Would they be that clever"? Yes, they would have to be. Clever enough to get a bomb on an aircraft at the primary airport of one of the world's currently most security-conscious nations, after recent attacks? I think you have to be quite clever. Clever enough to get a bomb on board in Tunisia or Eritrea and have it undiscovered for almost the whole day and not go off? Clever or lucky (or unlucky depending on what you wanted to do).
Also consider this, ("why would the pilots not radio that they were in trouble?") as that truck crosses the central reservation towards you at 140 mph closing speed,you would immediately call the emergency services on your cell phone? Of course not. You do what you can in that moment to save your skin. What use to you is 'radioing that you're in trouble?' What is anyone else going to do to help? You will be pleased to know that as professional pilots we put the safety of ourselves first and our passengers and crew a close second and informing the world what we are doing at least third, if that.

The very similar descent and turns made by Air France 447 and Air Asia 8501 were made by fully intact, serviceable aircraft, not pieces, by the way, so it is by no means certain that a bomb is the only explanation. It is most likely, but, in my opinion (please respect it, I've been an Airbus 320 pilot for 15 years) what happened caused a loss of control and not a massive in-flight break up.

By the way I have been in that exact position over the med on my way from Europe to Egypt many times and it is quite normal to have poor communication with ATC, especially Cairo control, being so far from land.
 

Clunk

New Member
Now, then:
 

Rico

Senior Member.
Also on 20 May, The Aviation Herald received information, from three independent channels, that ACARS messages with the following content had been received from the aircraft:

  • 00:26Z 3044 ANTI ICE R WINDOW
  • 00:26Z 561200 R SLIDING WINDOW SENSOR
  • 00:26Z 2600 SMOKE LAVATORY SMOKE
  • 00:27Z 2600 AVIONICS SMOKE
  • 00:28Z 561100 R FIXED WINDOW SENSOR
  • 00:29Z 2200 AUTO FLT FCU 2 FAULT
  • 00:29Z 2700 F/CTL SEC 3 FAULT
Grabbed that from wiki.

It appears they were starting to get faults pretty much the same time smoke was detected in the lavs. Have to wonder where it all started.

Pretty awful way to go though.
 

Hama Neggs

Senior Member.
There's a conspiracy theory that planes are crashng because the chemtrail equipment is blowing up:

http://www.look-up.org.uk/yet-another-a320-goes-down/
That's the latest "work around" I've seen when you tell chemmies that the planes can't physically contain enough material. "High pressure tanks".
 

munchie

Member
Would this maneuver indicate that the pilot was in control and purposefully taking the plane to lower altitude, or is it some kind of a system failure resulting in uncontrolled dive?


 

Clunk

New Member
That's difficult to say, really. In any fire or smoke scenario the priority is to get on the ground as soon as possible, so it could be an initial turn to 'somewhere', although the nearest place was probably Alexandria, straight ahead and the next nearest to the right and behind at Heraklion in Crete. The drills also suggest an immediate descent to 10,000 feet to allow venting of the cabin to take place in case smoke is a greater threat than fire. If it was a fire, then it seems as if it probably started and developed quickly. All the reported systems (failure of the window heat detectors, triggering or failure of smoke alarms, flight control computers) are fed from the same electrical bus situated in the lower right side of the nose (the avionics compartment, where the 'avionics smoke' detector is).
On the other hand, if one flight control computer was affected, then maybe more than one could be and so a potential loss of control is a possibility, even if the flight crew were unaffected by the fire.
 

NoParty

Senior Member.
Quote please?
I think Racoon is (appropriately) criticizing the tacky, ignorant content of the person who made the long post,
(complaining that families of victims were not grieving fully in accordance with his demands/expectations...)
with Racoon using the "vultures" language of someone responding to the OP...
 

Whitebeard

Senior Member.
Its a long and typically sick CT ramble going on about crisis actors, secret airfields extra.

But the bizarre part is linking the UK victim, a Mr Richard Osman, with the TV presenter, writer, producer of the same name. Why him? Why not Richard Osman of Lancing in Surrey, or Richard Osman of Bexhill on Sea, or any one of dozen or so other Richard Osmans I discovered after a 10 minute search through various UK phone directories and other listiings on line?

Whoever wrote that diatribe really does have issues.
 

Raccoon

Member
The one who wrote that think all the people in the photos are 'actors' and the plane never has been crashed.

Man. How sick do you have to be in your mind to BELIEVE that?! Bah!
 

Whitebeard

Senior Member.
Man. How sick do you have to be in your mind to BELIEVE that?! Bah!
Sadly its an all too common mantra these days; Sandy Hook, 7/7, the Paris massacre, The Boston Marathon Bombing... in fact nearly all major incidents and accidents in recent years are followed by some sick puppy crying on about false flags, crisis actors and the like.
Man. How sick do you have to be in your mind to BELIEVE that?! Bah!
It certainly shows a lack of empathy and maybe sociopathic tendencies.
 

Hama Neggs

Senior Member.
It certainly shows a lack of empathy and maybe sociopathic tendencies.
I think a lot of it is now coming from the "Me too!!" people who had no previous idea of a defined self-hood of their own. Most of our world societies have precious little in the way of actual culture or any clear meaningfulness offered to it's people. It's become more of a world "culture" as defined by the bankrupt offerings of Facebook and other social media. It's no wonder that insecure people are so desperate to see themselves as "above it all" and gravitate to CTs.
 

JRBids

Senior Member.
That's difficult to say, really. In any fire or smoke scenario the priority is to get on the ground as soon as possible, so it could be an initial turn to 'somewhere', although the nearest place was probably Alexandria, straight ahead and the next nearest to the right and behind at Heraklion in Crete. The drills also suggest an immediate descent to 10,000 feet to allow venting of the cabin to take place in case smoke is a greater threat than fire. If it was a fire, then it seems as if it probably started and developed quickly. All the reported systems (failure of the window heat detectors, triggering or failure of smoke alarms, flight control computers) are fed from the same electrical bus situated in the lower right side of the nose (the avionics compartment, where the 'avionics smoke' detector is).
On the other hand, if one flight control computer was affected, then maybe more than one could be and so a potential loss of control is a possibility, even if the flight crew were unaffected by the fire.
Do they have some kind of sealed masks they can access if the cockpit does fill with smoke?
 

Rico

Senior Member.
Smoke goggles and oxygen masks are standard equipment. There are self contained and sealed hoods, although I'm not sure if airlines all carry them
 

Clunk

New Member
I'm pretty sure that smoke hoods should be standard equipment on any commercial aircraft of this size, but they are not suitable for wear for an operating pilot. Instead the A320 has a quick donning oxygen mask with integrated goggles, where the default setting provides 100% oxygen.This is an Airbus-produced video on how it works:

Donning it should be the first action on recognition of smoke or fumes.
 

vooke

Active Member
Sadly its an all too common mantra these days; Sandy Hook, 7/7, the Paris massacre, The Boston Marathon Bombing... in fact nearly all major incidents and accidents in recent years are followed by some sick puppy crying on about false flags, crisis actors and the like.

It certainly shows a lack of empathy and maybe sociopathic tendencies.
Do they really believe these or they just compete at churning out fiction?
 

cicadia

New Member
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Clunk

New Member
A hole in the fuselage would not automatically mean the destruction of the aircraft. United 811 and Aloha 243 are examples

image.jpeg

image.jpeg

There are doubts about the fault messages received. As I mentioned, the last known position is in an area of poor radio contact. ACARS relies on VHF for its transmission and so it's possible that more messages were generated and not transmitted. Also, ACARS can send a 'group' of messages at once that may have been triggered at different times. The messages may not indicate triggering of the smoke warnings at all, possibly just that there were 'irregularities' with the monitoring device, or power supply.
There's not much in a lav to burn that's not in the rest of the cabin, just plastic and metal. The waste bin has an integral automatic extinguisher.
The way air is circulated in the 320 is that cabin air is extracted via the lavs (to reduce unpleasant 'atmospheres' in the cabin) and via the flight deck through the avionics compartment for cooling of the equipment. This means that the presence of smoke in the flight deck or in the cabin, especially near a toilet, will most likely trigger the smoke warnings in the lav and avionics bay anyway, despite the source of the fire being elsewhere.
 

Hevach

Senior Member.
I suppose it IS possible, but the chances must be billions to one of it happening.
And if it did, its impact on the future of air travel would be nothing.

An incredibly unlikely event which cannot be predicted, does not have a long-term certainty of occurring like an earthquake, and which upon happening cannot be defended against? There's a reason why civilian buildings were never widely hardened against nuclear strikes. You check if your insurance covers it and just kind of shrug your shoulders.
 
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