Do contrails form around low level clouds? [Generally not]

Marine0811

Active Member
Why do lower chemtrails last longer than higher chemtrails?

Why do commercial planes fly at least up to 35,000 ft before levelling off, but chemtrail planes level off at lower clouds around 6,500 ft.?
 

cloudspotter

Senior Member.
Why do lower chemtrails last longer than higher chemtrails?

Why do commercial planes fly at least up to 35,000 ft before levelling off, but chemtrail planes level off at lower clouds around 6,500 ft.?
Hi Marine. Do you have any evidence of this you'd like to discuss? Please start a new thread to do so if you have.
 

Trailblazer

Moderator
Staff member
Hello.
My evidence is observation.
Chemtrails are always laid around lower level clouds. Commercial planes fly high where air is thin.
This is off topic for this thread, but what you say is quite simply not true. What people refer to as "chemtrails" (in actual fact persistent contrails) are typically found above 30,000ft.

This is easily tested using one of the several flight-tracking programs that are available.



 

Trailblazer

Moderator
Staff member
Has anyone recorded it not happening? I haven't seen video where the long lasting trails are higher than all of the clouds.
Well here's a photo that a chemtrail believer sent to me on Twitter. I'd say that pretty conclusively shows that the trails (and the cirrus formed as they spread) are well above the clouds!



And there are plenty of videos of contrails on YouTube, taken from airliners at high altitude. One example (FL380 = 38,000ft).


And another very nice view of what these so-called "chemtrails" look like when you're up there with them:

 
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Mick West

Administrator
Staff member
Has anyone recorded it not happening? I haven't seen video where the long lasting trails are higher than all of the clouds.
It's an optical illusion. You are seeing trails that are closer to the horizon that some clouds, so your brain tricks you into thinking they are lower than the clouds.

Really they are just further away, but still at over 30,000 feet.

Here's an extreme example:


There's three rows of cloud. They are are most likely at the same height, but it looks like they are arranged vertically.

Now consider the light. Would you say that the bottom two clouds are at a lower altitude than the light bulb? Of course not. You know that the bulb is just 30 feet up, and the clouds are thousands of feet up in the air. But optically it looks like the bulb is higher.

You have to think in three dimensions.
 

Pete Tar

Senior Member.
Also consider the reflected light off a contrail can change its brightness relative to lower clouds, making it appear prominent through dim clouds, making your brain think it is closer than the dimmer clouds.
 

Trailblazer

Moderator
Staff member
Also consider the reflected light off a contrail can change its brightness relative to lower clouds, making it appear prominent through dim clouds, making your brain think it is closer than the dimmer clouds.
Here's an example of how height can be misleading. I took this photo last month.



The plane in shot is at 38,000ft. The older contrail it is crossing is at 37,000ft, i.e. BELOW this plane and its contrail. Yet to the naked eye, from the ground, it appears that the new contrail is in front of the old one, because it is brighter.

(Planes were identified using FlightRadar24: flight in shot is FR3186, older contrail is from EZY7209, evening of September 14.)

Links to flight tracks:

Plane in shot is FR3186: http://www.flightradar24.com/data/flights/fr3186/#453d171

upload_2014-10-16_22-19-5.png

Older contrail is from EZY7209 (aka U27209): http://www.flightradar24.com/data/flights/u27209/#453fee5

upload_2014-10-16_22-20-52.png

Note altitude readouts at the bottom.
 
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Mick West

Administrator
Staff member
Here's an example of how height can be misleading. I took this photo last month.



The plane in shot is at 38,000ft. The older contrail it is crossing is at 37,000ft, i.e. BELOW this plane and its contrail. Yet to the naked eye, from the ground, it appears that the new contrail is in front of the old one, because it is brighter.
Great example, I should add it to this thread:
https://www.metabunk.org/threads/ab...ontrail-is-above-or-below-a-cloud-layer.4334/
 

Trailblazer

Moderator
Staff member
Feel free to copy it over. I've added screenshots of the flight tracks. Photo was taken from a few miles east of the point where the tracks cross.

(Incidentally, after posting those tracks I thought I must have made a mistake, as the trails seemed to be crossing in the wrong direction. Then I realised the obvious - the map shows them from the top, and I was underneath! :confused: )
 
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Marine0811

Active Member
It's an optical illusion. You are seeing trails that are closer to the horizon that some clouds, so your brain tricks you into thinking they are lower than the clouds.

Really they are just further away, but still at over 30,000 feet.

Here's an extreme example:


There's three rows of cloud. They are are most likely at the same height, but it looks like they are arranged vertically.

Now consider the light. Would you say that the bottom two clouds are at a lower altitude than the light bulb? Of course not. You know that the bulb is just 30 feet up, and the clouds are thousands of feet up in the air. But optically it looks like the bulb is higher.

You have to think in three dimensions.
I have seen commercial planes climbing leaving contrails while seeing much lower planes level laying chemtrails. The lower plane was much easier to see than the far one was, that is how I know it wasn't an illusion.
 

Marine0811

Active Member
How did you determine they were climbing? Because they weren't going parallel with the horizon?
I compared their angle with other planes angle that were flying at the same time. Their trail was a lot farther away and more difficult to see.
 

WeedWhacker

Senior Member
Why do commercial planes fly at least up to 35,000 ft before levelling off, but chemtrail planes level off at lower clouds around 6,500 ft.?
This is completely mistaken for two reasons:

Not all commercial planes climb immediately to 35,000 feet! (MANY reasons, which can be explained at length, but not here).

And, there are NO so-called "chem"trails at 6,500 feet. Since "chem"trails do not exist, in the first place.
 

Pete Tar

Senior Member.
I compared their angle with other planes angle that were flying at the same time. Their trail was a lot farther away and more difficult to see.
So how do you know the angle isn't just a plane flying in a different direction compared to the others?
eg, if you're facing north, a plane flying SSW towards you would appear to 'climb', especially relative to a plane flying NE to SW.
To see a plane climbing you have to be pretty close to it watching it basically take off from an airport - once it's above 10 thousand feet and several kilometres away I think it would be pretty hard to say a plane is climbing unless you're tracking it on radar or by a flight app.
The transparency or opacity of a trail doesn't indicate whether it's closer to you or not, as I hope you can understand from the previous posts explaining this concept.
You should try using a flight tracking app, as trailblazer suggested, then you can have some evidence other than your personal estimation.
 

Trailblazer

Moderator
Staff member
I compared their angle with other planes angle that were flying at the same time. Their trail was a lot farther away and more difficult to see.
Is this plane climbing?
image.jpg

You mentioned a height of 6,500ft. How did you determine this? If were talking passenger jets, they look pretty huge at 6,500ft. Not quite wave-to-the-pilot huge, but you can clearly identify the airline and plane type at that height.
 

Igrokush1

Member
But you haven't recorded this happening?
I have recorded this happening. I am willing to debunk or you may dub me a truth seeker. A true scientist must look at both sides until conclusive evidence has been determined. Again, not siding either way, sorry to disappoint the 'chemtrail' people and the debunkers..I will post a recent photo I took of a very distinct black line in the sky following a contrail along with a parallel black streak, for debunking purposes we shall call it 'perfectly normal phenomenon' possibly a shadow(or two)coming from a contrail. This is something neither side has yet addressed I believe. In regards to low altitude trails, the photos I took are so low, they are just above the tree lines. Still unsure about the tic tack toe pattern Mangles describes or why he hasn't shown a pic of such. I have one I took, again I'm sure it's a 'perfectly normal' flight pattern that just happens to be going N,S,E,W. I'm here to either debunk the false claims or to shed an open ray of science for the debunkers to do some homework. Either way, I'd like to share these pics I took in Redding and lake head area and castle crags, which according to the East, West documentation there were few flights at low altitude. My phone doesn't capture the high altitude flights well at all! Sherlock Holmes said "Good science is good observation". And I have read and observed the uspto patent on weather modification, I have observed and documented super heavy air traffic in both directions on days of a supposed storm, I have read numerous articles on cloud seeding. So in the biggest drought in over a century I'm quite sure if we can seed clouds we can indeed un-seed them with our technology and existing patents.
 

Igrokush1

Member
Maybe it's one of those flights from China, carrying that debris...c'mon have a sense of humor everyone. I have another like this in the evening, after the sun has passed over the western mountains, this one goes E&W, not vertical.
 

Gundersen

Senior Member.
I have heard this a lot, it is very very difficult to judge angles / altitudes / distances when we are talking about a plane in 6-30K ft height. It is like, "Wow, there is a tree on the moon!"
 

scombrid

Senior Member.
I compared their angle with other planes angle that were flying at the same time.
Flying at the same time does not mean that they were flying in the same direction.

I'm in Brevard County, Florida. A flight from Miami to New York may look like it is going "up" if I am facing south as it approaches. If there is a flight from San Juan to Texas coming in from the east that the same time it will be crossing my field of vision from the left when I am facing south and may look like it is level compared to the flight from Miami. But they are really both at level cruise. It's just perspective that makes it look otherwise.
 

Trailblazer

Moderator
Staff member
I have recorded this happening. I am willing to debunk or you may dub me a truth seeker. A true scientist must look at both sides until conclusive evidence has been determined. Again, not siding either way, sorry to disappoint the 'chemtrail' people and the debunkers..I will post a recent photo I took of a very distinct black line in the sky following a contrail along with a parallel black streak, for debunking purposes we shall call it 'perfectly normal phenomenon' possibly a shadow(or two)coming from a contrail. This is something neither side has yet addressed I believe. In regards to low altitude trails, the photos I took are so low, they are just above the tree lines. Still unsure about the tic tack toe pattern Mangles describes or why he hasn't shown a pic of such. I have one I took, again I'm sure it's a 'perfectly normal' flight pattern that just happens to be going N,S,E,W. I'm here to either debunk the false claims or to shed an open ray of science for the debunkers to do some homework. Either way, I'd like to share these pics I took in Redding and lake head area and castle crags, which according to the East, West documentation there were few flights at low altitude. My phone doesn't capture the high altitude flights well at all! Sherlock Holmes said "Good science is good observation". And I have read and observed the uspto patent on weather modification, I have observed and documented super heavy air traffic in both directions on days of a supposed storm, I have read numerous articles on cloud seeding. So in the biggest drought in over a century I'm quite sure if we can seed clouds we can indeed un-seed them with our technology and existing patents.
The black streaks are just shadows, as discussed in the link Mick provided.

And how on Earth can you say that because a contrail appears (from your vantage point) to be "just above the tree line" that means the plane is at a low level? Contrails are often visible virtually down to the horizon. That doesn't mean the planes are hitting the ground!

Do you think these planes were buzzing the trees and TV aerials?

 

SR1419

Senior Member.
I have seen commercial planes climbing leaving contrails while seeing much lower planes level laying chemtrails.
Sometimes lower planes are in humid layers conducive to persistent contrails whilst planes higher up are in drier air leaving only ephemeral contrails- for example:

 

Igrokush1

Member
The black streaks are just shadows, as discussed in the link Mick provided.

And how on Earth can you say that because a contrail appears (from your vantage point) to be "just above the tree line" that means the plane is at a low level? Contrails are often visible virtually down to the horizon. That doesn't mean the planes are hitting the ground!

Do you think these planes were buzzing the trees and TV aerials?

Wow, that's an amazing shot. Was this an air show or just a 'perfectly normal' day at the races of public air travel?
In regards to low altitude flights, um, I can see the difference by seeing the planes mainly vs them appearing to be a speck. My cell phone pixel and resolution along with no zoom in shot, at that point distance is sort of self explanatory. I mean, I see helicopters clear and then I see a plane quite clear as well.
About the shadow people, why is the shadow in the pic I took coming out the bottom(or top) of the contrail and simultaneously along the side of it? If it is a shadow why aren't they produced frequent enough in Redding Ca for others to have observed and photoed it? Maybe I'm the lucky one to see such rare 'perfectly normal' cloud shadowing phenomenon.

Mick, you may very well be right about the fire planes at low altitude, that would clearly explain the patent on 'sulfate aerosol dispersal'..... Google it. Or is it standard protocol for me to post that one to be debunked, because I can if you'd like. I also read the entire West/Wiginton debate, and I must say, even the 'non-bias' mediator gets you on a few points that you clearly leave unclear. I can re read it and address those compelling topics if you'd like.
 
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Trailblazer

Moderator
Staff member
Wow, that's an amazing shot. Was this an air show or just a 'perfectly normal' day at the races of public air travel?
In regards to low altitude flights, um, I can see the difference by seeing the planes mainly vs them appearing to be a speck. My cell phone pixel and resolution along with no zoom in shot, at that point distance is sort of self explanatory. I mean, I see helicopters clear and then I see a plane quite clear as well.
About the shadow people, why is the shadow in the pic I took coming out the bottom(or top) of the contrail and simultaneously along the side of it? If it is a shadow why aren't they produced frequent enough in Redding Ca for others to have observed and photoed it? Maybe I'm the lucky one to see such rare 'perfectly normal' cloud shadowing phenomenon.

Mick, you may very well be right about the fire planes at low altitude, that would clearly explain the patent on 'sulfate aerosol dispersal'..... Google it. Or is it standard protocol for me to post that one to be debunked, because I can if you'd like. I also read the entire West/Wiginton debate, and I must say, even the 'non-bias' mediator gets you on a few points that you clearly leave unclear. I can re read it and address those compelling topics if you'd like.
That photo was taken out of my front window: https://www.metabunk.org/threads/busy-sky-over-southern-uk-july-30-2014.4035/

No more planes than usual (I live under two busy flight paths), just especially good conditions for persistence.

Your questions about the shadow are answered fully in the linked threads (volumetric shadow). Basically you are seeing two shadows, one projected onto the cloud layer and the other passing through a hazy layer of air.

I saw a very striking example a few months ago but didn't have my camera to hand. They're not all that uncommon, once you start "looking up" :)
 
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Hama Neggs

Senior Member.
I also read the entire West/Wiginton debate, and I must say, even the 'non-bias' mediator gets you on a few points that you clearly leave unclear. I can re read it and address those compelling topics if you'd like.
Is that all you got from listening to that debate? Do you have no comment on the bits which were made clear about Dane's false claims? Seems to indicate a bias on your part. Start a new thread about this, if you want to discuss it.
 

Igrokush1

Member
Right on, I will look further into the shadow link. And you are in the UK taking that pic? I can see it's probably busier there than in redding ca, so when redding does look similar to that us mountain folk get curious, especially when its not an everyday event here, and it's in the middle of the week, and when it's just before or on a day it's supposed to storm then no rain. I mean it sort of makes the skeptics 'round here skeptical. That's all, no disrespect to your photo intended, I just think it's an amazing pic.
 
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Efftup

Senior Member.
Because of confirmation bias and possible misperception, what you should really do is document EVERY DAY the appearance of contrails, persistent or otherwise AND the weather to see if there is any correlation or not. (Correlation does not necessarily mean causation of course.)
Also it would be good to try and find out what flight paths do go over your area, ( and by over I mean within 50-100 miles. I was shocked the first time I looked at something a bit "over there" from my House in Bristol to find it was over Cardiff, 50 miles away.
the flight radar 24 app for android is great cos you can look at a plane making a trail and identify it. Not only that, but you can point at the sky and identify planes you can't see because they are not making a trail or there is too much cloud cover but are still there nonetheless.
I don't see midweek being an issue. flights to and from London airports and North America fly over an air corridor between Bristol and Gloucester. they fly every day, whether I see them or not.
 

Mick West

Administrator
Staff member
Right on, I will look further into the shadow link. And you are in the UK taking that pic? I can see it's probably busier there than in redding ca, so when redding does look similar to that us mountain folk get curious, especially when its not an everyday event here, and it's in the middle of the week, and when it's just before or on a day it's supposed to storm then no rain. I mean it sort of makes the skeptics 'round here skeptical. That's all, no disrespect to your photo intended, I just think it's an amazing pic.
Depends on where you live, and what your view looks out on. I pretty much never see skies like that, as we just don't have the flyover traffic in Los Angeles. There are areas of Europe that see skies like that quite a lot.

And the traffic over any area, Redding, Los Angeles, or London, is pretty constant from day to day. It's just the atmospheric conditions that change. The high altitude weather.
 

Igrokush1

Member
In response to efftup, I have been documenting actually, and in this pic I took marked 10 contrails in a single sitting. So I started calling airports. And on that day, at that time of the pic, two of the 10 trails were accounted for by public aircraft. Horizon and United with flights from SF to Portland and one from Sac to Seattle. There were others that day, absolutely. However at that exact time there were zero others. They were either later at night or earlier in the day. And of course the rest may have been package flights and in fact government aircraft monitoring the fires. I would say anything is possible. Also, Id like to check out the android app except I have this dang iPhone.
Aside from the topic, apologies Mick, but I like the pic of the sundial someone posted in place of my gender sign... Except it would have been cooler if it were pink, as the sundial was lit up last night for the think pink deal. But thanks man seriously, I like it anyways!
 

Igrokush1

Member
Yes Dane did say a few things that lost him credibility in my opinion, that is a true statement. However if you consider a non-bias mediator to be conducting the interview, on average, the mediator had more unresolved questions for Mick. That's all I was saying. Didn't mean to be impolite to anyone, just going on my observations in general about the debate.
 
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