Debunked: Monsanto's Aluminum Resistant GMOs and Chemtrails

mynym

Banned
Banned
Your youtube video speaks of proposed geoengineering. The data shows that it isn't happening, yet.
Good. Worth keeping an eye on given all the proposals to do it and the historical lack of concern in the military industrial complex (inc.) with respect to anything that may destroy the environment or possibly set off some sort of cycle of destruction. E.g. setting off nuclear bombs, dumping old WMDs in the oceans and so forth. If large corporations partnering with the government could figure out a way of doing it without being detected by scientists or could buy scientists off, it's likely that they would do it. It's probably only a matter of time before "elites" begin trying to manipulate the weather more than they already have.
 

George B

Extinct but not forgotten Staff Member
Good. Worth keeping an eye on given all the proposals to do it and the historical lack of concern in the military industrial complex (inc.) with respect to anything that may destroy the environment or possibly set off some sort of cycle of destruction. E.g. setting off nuclear bombs, dumping old WMDs in the oceans and so forth. If large corporations partnering with the government could figure out a way of doing it without being detected by scientists or could buy scientists off, it's likely that they would do it. It's probably only a matter of time before "elites" begin trying to manipulate the weather more than they already have.
The only way that could be done is to keep the activities engaged in . . buried in the background noise . . . hypothetically possible but very difficult to pull off . . . and then one would have to prove some result or benefit to the perpetrators to make such activities plausible . . .
 

Pete

Member
Good debunking but geoengineering is still an issue: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hpz6W980n4I&feature=player_embedded

Don't mix issues. One could rightly say that pollution from car exhausts is still a massive issue affecting our climate/atmosphere/physical well being, and in almost all areas its proven, but I don't hear you clamoring for action about this? Hell, if the chemtrail enthusiasts spent half their time lobbying Governments on cutting down emissions the world would be great. So, stick to your argument or kindly start another thread.

Geo-engineering is a known item, and fact. I'm not sure anyone here is denying that such works occur either via the military or nation-states (China, the US and Russia are all big players researching Geo-engineering, and doing things like cloud-seeding). But so what? We know this.

Also you cannot extrapolate small scale items like cloud-seeding to global theories regarding deliberately and covertly changing our entire atmosphere. Can you not see the difference?
 

Jazzy

Closed Account
you cannot extrapolate to global theories regarding deliberately and covertly changing our entire atmosphere. Can you not see the difference?
Especially when there is already the very largest elephant in the room.

(It's the biggest - it has to be - which is the ANNUAL burning of 12,000,000,000 tons of fossil carbon in the forms of coal, petroleum, and natural gas).

When it farts clathrates we're really going to know about "silent killers".

Screen Shot 2013-05-15 at 15.05.36.png

The Story of the Six Blind Men

Once upon a time, in a faraway land, there lived six blind men. Each of them was very wise. Each of them had gone to school and read lots of books in braille.

They knew so much about so many things that people would often come from miles around to get their advice. They were happy to share whatever they knew with the people who asked them thoughtful questions.

One day these six wise blind men went for a walk in the zoo. That day the zoo-keeper was worrying about all of her many troubles.

The night before she had had an argument with her husband, and her children had been misbehaving all day long. She had so much on her mind that she forgot to lock the gate of the elephant cage as she was leaving it.

Now, elephants are naturally very curious animals. They quickly tried to push the gate to the cage to see if it might open. To their great surprise, the gate swung freely on its hinge. Two of the more daring elephants walked over to the gate. They looked left and right, and then quietly tip-toed out of the cage.

Just at that moment the six blind men walked by. One of them heard a twig snap, and went over to see what it was that was walking by.

"Hi there !" said the first blind man to the first elephant. "Could you please tell us the way to the zoo restaurant ?" The elephant couldn't think of anything intelligent to say, so he sort of shifted his weight from left to right to left to right.

The first blind man walked over to see if this big silent person needed any help. Then, with a big bump, he walked right into the side of the elephant. He put out his arms to either side, but all he could feel was the big body of the elephant.

"Boy," said the first blind man. "I think I must have walked into a wall. "The second blind man was becoming more and more curious about what was happening. He walked over to the front of the elephant and grabbed hold of the animal's trunk.

He quickly let go and shouted, "This isn't a wall. This is a snake! We should step back in case it's poisonous." The third man quickly decided to find out what was going on, and to tell his friends what they had walked into.

He walked over to the back of the elephant and touched the animal's tail. "This is no wall, and this is no snake. You are both wrong once again. I know for sure that this is a rope."

The fourth man sighed as he knew how stubborn his friends could be. The fourth blind man decided that someone should really get to the bottom of this thing. So he crouched down on all fours and felt around the elephant's legs. (Luckily for the fourth man, this elephant was very tame and wouldn't think of stepping on a human being.)

"My dear friends," explained the fourth man. "This is no wall and this is no snake. This is no rope either. What we have here, gentlemen, is four tree trunks. That's it. Case closed."

The fifth blind man was not so quick to jump to conclusions. He walked up to the front of the elephant and felt the animal's two long tusks. "It seems to me that this object is made up of two swords," said the fifth man. "What I am holding is long and curved and sharp at the end. I am not sure what this could be, but maybe our sixth friend could help us."

The sixth blind man scratched his head and thought and thought. He was the one who really was the wisest of all of them. He was the one who really knew what he knew, and knew what he didn't know.

Just then the worried zoo-keeper walked by. "Hi there ! How are you enjoying the zoo today ?" she asked them all. "The zoo is very nice," replied the sixth blind man. "Perhaps you could help us figure out the answer to a question that's been puzzling us."

"Sure thing," said the zoo-keeper, as she firmly grabbed the elephant's collar.

"My friends and I can't seem to figure out what this thing in front of us is. One of us thinks it's a wall; one thinks it's a snake; one thinks it's a rope, and one thinks it's four tree trunks. How can one thing seem so different to five different people?" "Well," said the zoo-keeper. "You are all right. This elephant seems like something different to each one of you. And the only way to know what this thing really is, is to do exactly what you have done. Only by sharing what each of you knows can you possibly reach a true understanding."

The six wise men had to agree with the wisdom of the zoo-keeper. The first five of them had been too quick to form an opinion without listening to what the others had to say.

So they all went off to the zoo restaurant and had a really hearty lunch.

(This story is a well-known fable from India. Modernized and re-told by Phil Shapiro)


Unlike the above story, this is NOT a tame elephant. It's more like a MAMMOTH, huge, hairy, wild and feisty.

Screen Shot 2013-05-15 at 15.48.48.png

The extinction of the ammonites, along with other marine animals and non-avian dinosaurs, has been attributed to a bolide impact, marking the end of the Cretaceous Period. Regardless of what effect an impact may have had, many of these groups, including ammonoids, were already in serious decline. Previously, ammonoid cephalopods barely survived several earlier major extinction events, often with only a few species surviving from which a multitude of forms diversified.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ammonoidea
 

Boston

Active Member
I particularly liked both post 21 and post 111 as being the clearest analysis of the probabilities involved. I'm no jet aircraft mechanic but I do tinker with energetics, I've one vehicle runs on used motor oil and another bio-diesel, I've also built a small pyrolysis system that I don't run anymore cause its damn dangerous, but it would make fuel out of old tires and plastic buckets, things like that, into mostly diesel. The point I'm getting at is that if the suggestion is that this material is being somehow injected into a jet engine you'd see a marked drop in power. Oxygen at the altitudes being discussed is quite low. OK actually its roughly the same percentage but its volume is less, 15lb at sea level vs about 4 at 35000ft.

My point is that these engines are maximized for cruising at x feet altitude injecting x amount of fuel to burn efficiently with x amount of oxygen available at the cruise speed of the vehicle. If you sent AL into the fuel stream you'd end up with a lot of it fouling up in the injectors and injection pumps. Which on any jet aircraft are the heart of the system and very very expensive to maintain. what made it to the combustion process would not convert entirely into AL203 in the rarefied air. So the search for both chemicals should yield something if in fact this whole chemtrail concept has any basis in reality. In the end you'd see a marked drop in efficiency of this engine as the aluminum would want to burn at a much higher temp than the engine is designed for, Jet turbines melt at about 1300 C yet the fuel burn happens at about 2000 C. So there's a really fine line that this engine is walking to maintain its integrity. Change that temp much and you start loosing engines. IE planes start dropping out of the sky. Al on the other hand aluminum burns at about twice that temp or right around 4000 C. So while I'm not jet engine mechanic, my bet is you'd either choke out your engine or turn it into slag within just a few moments of the aluminum entering the equation

My two cents

Cheers
B
 

Jay Reynolds

Senior Member.
Oxygen at the altitudes being discussed is quite low. OK actually its roughly the same percentage but its volume is less, 15lb at sea level vs about 4 at 35000ft.

My point is that these engines are maximized for cruising at x feet altitude injecting x amount of fuel to burn efficiently with x amount of oxygen available at the cruise speed of the vehicle. B

In a gas turbine, the compressor section provides more than enough oxygen density to burn the fuel. Far more.

Fuel filtration in these engines is on the order of 0.5 micron, and thus no solids could be introduced into jet engine fuel systems else the filters would quickly clog.
Al2O3 is an abrasive and refractory, and makes up about 10% of volcanic ash, along with silicon dioxide Si02 at about 50%.

al2o3iceland.jpg

As seen in the the recent volcanic eruptions Al2O3 is not compatible with gas turbine combustion an will not allow safe flight.
The aluminum oxide gambit of the chemtrails hoax is simply people grasping at straws to support the unsupportable.
 

David Fraser

Senior Member.
I don't know if it has been posted in here but I came across a statement by Barbara Peterson of Farmwars,

http://farmwars.info/?p=7760

It may helpful to use when debunking aluminium in the soil and Al resistant seeds.
 

Jazzy

Closed Account
(If) this material is being somehow injected into a jet engine you'd see a marked drop in power. Oxygen at the altitudes being discussed is quite low. OK actually its roughly the same percentage but its volume is less, 15lb at sea level vs about 4 at 35000ft.
Jet engines are thermal expansion engines, so if you increase their temperature their internal pressure WILL increase and there would be a marked INCREASE in power. Temporarily.

the combustion process would not convert entirely into AL203 in the rarefied air.
Actually it will be quite happy burning nitrogen too. (!)

Jay is correct about the air/oxygen supply. Engines are designed to cope with atmospheric pressure variation up to cruise altitude.

Cheers, Boston. :)
 

Chris Bowen

New Member
Chemtrails debunked? Huh? Are you insane? Is this your little joke you are having with yourself? Do you work for Dr Kissinger or George Soros? Far from being debunked, Chem-trails have been completely ADMITTED. All you have to do is look up in the sky and watch the jets playing tick tack toe. Sheesh, what a disinformation agent. Do you think we are all stupid?
http://www.knowthelies.com/node/4014
 

Mick West

Administrator
Staff member
Chemtrails debunked? Huh? Are you insane? Is this your little joke you are having with yourself? Do you work for Dr Kissinger or George Soros? Far from being debunked, Chem-trails have been completely ADMITTED. All you have to do is look up in the sky and watch the jets playing tick tack toe. Sheesh, what a disinformation agent. Do you think we are all stupid?

Hi Chris, this is actually the "Debunked: Monsanto's Aluminum Resistant GMOs and Chemtrails", so it's pretty specific. I'd appreciate it if you could stick to the topic. Fee free to start another thread, ut I must ask that you stick to the posting guidelines:
https://www.metabunk.org/threads/posting-guidelines.2064/

And Politeness policy:
https://www.metabunk.org/threads/politeness-policy.1224/
 
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Chris Bowen

New Member
Well,m I'm happy to be polite. I have lived many years in several different locations in Nevada watching the jets crisscross the sky with the obvious intent of ONLY creating the patterns of contrails specific to an obvious spraying program. Clearly their purpose is not to train pilots, or any some such, as these contrails stay in the sky many hours, only dissipating very slowly such that they make a formerly blue sky then white and fuzzy. There have been admissions by the government as well as others in the spraying programs, pictures of the actual cannisters. I have listened to a long string of various scientists on Coast to Coast AM and elsewhere on U-Tube who have tested the soil samples around lake Shasta and elsewhere and who have come to somewhat various conclusions about their purpose. But the actuality OF the spraying program is no longer even being debated I am quite certain. I am merely responding to the very first post claiming the fact of chemtrails have been debunked, etc, which I find to be quite a gross error.
 
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Jay Reynolds

Senior Member.
Chris, looks like you enjoy watching videos. Try some of them at this site from Nevada. It might introduce you to a whole new perspective,
even if I don't agree with some of what he says:
 

mike mcguire

New Member
First of all, everyone's immune system is unique and can fight off disease differently. Some are more susceptible. Secondly, your last video didn't debunk anything, it shows a guy documenting all the chemtrails over his house. How is that a new perspective on chemtrails. There is nothing to debunk as it is widely documented and admitted. [...]
To say a plant couldn't be dying next to a perfectly healthy one shows you are [wrong]. People in a room with someone sick should all get sick in your [dubious] theory. That doesn't happen huh?
[...]

[Admin: politeness edits]
 
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Mick West

Administrator
Staff member
Hi Mike, please review:
https://www.metabunk.org/threads/politeness-policy.1224/

To say a plant couldn't be dying next to a perfectly healthy one shows you are [wrong].]

The point with the plants was they they were basically the same type of plant, and they would all have gotten the same "dose" of toxins or radiation. It's different from a disease. More like if all the people in a room got sprayed with poison, they would all get sick.
 
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Jay Reynolds

Senior Member.
Secondly, your last video didn't debunk anything, it shows a guy documenting all the chemtrails over his house. How is that a new perspective on chemtrails.
Mike, the video shows a guy who has done a very good job of identifying the planes over Nevada. They were ordinary passenger jets from identifiable airlines carrying people. Now he called them 'chemtrails' but there is no sense in saying passenger jets flying fromairport to airport are spraying people with poison or anything else, is there.... Think about it.
 

scombrid

Senior Member.
First of all, everyone's immune system is unique and can fight off disease differently. Some are more susceptible.

More susceptible to what? Poison or pathogen? Do you understand how the immune system works with regard to either of those?

Secondly, your last video didn't debunk anything, it shows a guy documenting all the chemtrails over his house.How is that a new perspective on chemtrails.

For most chemtrail believers, it is a new perspective for them when they realize that the trails are behind ordinary commercial traffic flying from point to point and not super secret unmarked military jets flying back and forth repeatedly over the same area.

To say a plant couldn't be dying next to a perfectly healthy one

Who says that?

It happens all the time. Just not by the mechanism that you claim.
 

Libertarian

Banned
Banned
Further to Mick's opener, perhaps acid is indeed the key to the whole aluminum puzzle.

The Council on Foreign Relations, which I consider an extraordinarily evil group of psychopaths, wrote that "one kilogram of well placed sulfur in the stratosphere would roughly offset the warming effect of several hundred thousand kilograms of carbon dioxide." See the "ALBEDO ENHANCERS" section, paragraph 2, sentence 2.

http://www.cfr.org/climate-change/geoengineering-option/p18635

The CFR quote is mentioned in this wikipedia article entitled "Stratospheric sulfate aerosols" which indicates that "These compounds would be delivered using artillery, aircraft (such as the high-flying F-15C)[4] or balloons, and result in the formation of compounds with the sulfate anion SO42".

To head off shallow dismissive responses, I'm not claiming that such substances are in the contrails. Rather, I am stating that I find the notion that the CFR would consider this to be highly disturbing and suggestive.

Unfortunately while our lives have become completely public vis a vis NSA spying etc., many of our governments' projects have become exceedingly private. So we have no idea whether this has already been done. Perhaps it explains some of the build-up in aluminum in our soil, along with all of the easy explanations such as despicable waivers allowing massive acid producing pollution by above the law corporations owned by the elite such as GE.
 

WeedWhacker

Senior Member
The Council on Foreign Relations, which I consider an extraordinarily evil group of psychopaths, wrote that "one kilogram of well placed sulfur in the stratosphere would roughly offset the warming effect of several hundred thousand kilograms of carbon dioxide."

This, again for emphasis...is a proposal. What the Walt Disney Corporation (for example) dubbed "Imagineering".

Also, the notion of spreading sulfur material into the stratosphere requires a VERY HIGH altitude in the stratosphere for it to be (conceivably) effective. Altitudes well above the typical airliner cruising levels.
 

Libertarian

Banned
Banned
This, again for emphasis...is a proposal. What the Walt Disney Corporation (for example) dubbed "Imagineering".

Also, the notion of spreading sulfur material into the stratosphere requires a VERY HIGH altitude in the stratosphere for it to be (conceivably) effective. Altitudes well above the typical airliner cruising levels.
Yes, I know. That's why I specifically said that I am not claiming that such substances are in the contrails.

Since this thread is supposedly dedicated to Aluminum and "chemtrails", the notion that the two might indeed be linked is an important factor in the debate. I have been corrected elsewhere that "chemtrails" do not equal "geo-engineering", but this is simply not true. You can't seriously claim both to know the accurate description of "chemtrails" while also claiming to know that they don't exist. According to wikipedia, "The term chemtrail is a portmanteau of the words "chemical" and "trail"" - so the notion that an acidic chemical might be trailed from an airplane at high altitude certainly qualifies.

While you may be right about dramatically higher levels of aluminum in the soil not being from the contrails, it may well have resulted from geo-engineering, which squarely falls into the category of "chemtrails". I would like to pre-state for those who would love to call this "Off Topic" that this thread is not named "Monsanto's Aluminum resistant GMO and CONTRAILS." Rather it refers to "chemtrails". So please let's not conflate the two and imply that "chemtrails" equal "contrails" in order to knock down a straw man and declare prematurely that you have debunked something.

But...I have a very strong feeling that asking "what is trailed?" rather than declaring what isn't is not welcome. While it might be important, I believe it is not important to those here. So I won't chime in on this one again.

Enter: Someone who will stick his nose in the air and declare that I "argue from ignorance" as an excuse to maintain his own, but feel lofty about it :p My concrete suggestion is that we eliminate government secrecy such that these conspiracies can be washed away. Secret government is bad government.
 
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WeedWhacker

Senior Member
...it might also be that dramatically higher of aluminum in the soil is indeed very bad. And it may well have resulted from geo-engineering...

There are many extant sources for "elevated" levels of aluminium in soil, and all primarily ground-based as a result of industrial pollution. (For one example).

Note this simple fact: "Chem"trails as the meme implies are a HOAX and Urban Myth.
 

Jazzy

Closed Account
Perhaps it explains some of the build-up in aluminum in our soil
That's not true.

Aluminum is the most prolific element there is in both rock, and soil. There's more aluminum than iron by a long chalk, and you'll find it in aerosols and household dusts too. It hasn't "built up". It always has been. Also the proof's in the scientific sampling of air begun in the 1950s. Allowing for the bumps of volcanic eruptions, the amount of dust in the air is constant - the graph's a flat line. And the dust is 8% aluminum. Why? Because the earth's crust is 8% aluminum by weight.

Contrails can accrete water vapor to grow their size by a factor of ten thousand times. If they couldn't, there's be none of this "chemtrail" business. It's a total myth. It's complete crap.
 

WeedWhacker

Senior Member
Contrails can accrete water vapor to grow their size by a factor of ten thousand times. If they couldn't, there's be none of this "chemtrail" business.

Perhaps it's about time to include this humorous video, about banning that "dangerous" chemical known as Di-Hydrogen Monoxide!


And, if you are able to watch this video, then also please listen carefully to the message in the audio. It applies to many aspects of life, and basic common sense!

Text: "Is passion supposed to replace common sense?" That was just part of my personal 'take-away' from the video clip. For more, look at other "Penn & Teller" videos, and their (pardon, but it's the actual title) "Bullshit!" series.

Personal side note: I have long been a 'fan' of this comedy/magic team, since I first caught one of their live shows off-off Broadway, many years ago (before they were famous).

More entertainment (because I like them so much):
 
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Pete Tar

Senior Member.
While you may be right about dramatically higher levels of aluminum in the soil not being from the contrails,

You have to actually source this 'dramatically elevated levels', not just declare it to be so. Can you?

Rather it refers to "chemtrails". So please let's not conflate the two and imply that "chemtrails" equal "contrails" in order to knock down a straw man and declare prematurely that you have debunked something.

Excuse me? Are you at all familiar with the claims of the chemtrail movement, because that is *exactly* what they have always been claiming!
Your attempts to present that as a strawman are either disingenuous or severely ignorant.

Enter: Someone who will stick his nose in the air and declare that I "argue from ignorance" as an excuse to maintain his own, but feel lofty about it :p My concrete suggestion is that we eliminate government secrecy such that these conspiracies can be washed away. Secret government is bad government.

Not the topic of the thread. Though I agree. But not with your snide condescension.
 

Belfrey

Senior Member.
I have been corrected elsewhere that "chemtrails" do not equal "geo-engineering", but this is simply not true. You can't seriously claim both to know the accurate description of "chemtrails" while also claiming to know that they don't exist. According to wikipedia, "The term chemtrail is a portmanteau of the words "chemical" and "trail"" - so the notion that an acidic chemical might be trailed from an airplane at high altitude certainly qualifies.
This is an equivocation. "Chemtrails," as the term is commonly used, refers to those persistent visible trails across the sky, which appear just like persistent contrails, and the belief that they are actually the result of intentionally "spraying" something other than ordinary exhaust. That's what it means in the context of these discussions.
 

scombrid

Senior Member.
While you may be right about dramatically higher levels of aluminum in the soil

What dramatically higher levels?


it may well have resulted from geo-engineering,

Has there been a recent increase in acid deposition from SOx? I've seen no evidence of it. Do you have some?

Last time I looked cap and trade on sulfur emmissions had reduced that problem a lot in the US. China is a mess with sulfur pollution but it is from coal fire and not "chemtrails".

Were geoengineering causing a measurable effect on rain and soil acidity then I think the pattern of acid deposition would be a lot different globally.

My concrete suggestion is that we eliminate government secrecy such that these conspiracies can be washed away.

I suggest catching the government in lies is a weapon to achieve this goal. Arguing that the government is likely or possibly doing something based on imaginary evidence neutralizes that particular weapon.
 

Jazzy

Closed Account
The insoluble aluminum in our soil is dissolved out by the acid rain created by burning fossil fuels for energy and power. No oil - no acid rain - no ocean acidification.

The "chemtrail" movement attacks with its gross disinformation this poignant truth.

The "chemtrail" movement is a true enemy of our scientifically-based society. It has no fine points. It is "Jubilation T. Cornpone".

 

Mr.B

New Member
Wow. Your claim Mike, is that all "trails" are contrails. And that Monsanto having aluminum resistant gmos have no correlation. To clarify for you and the rest of the thread, the correct term is GEOENGINEERING.
Geoengineering is the deliberate large-scale manipulation of an environmental process that affects the earth's climate, in an attempt to counteract the effects of global warming.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geoengineering
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Climate_engineering

It has been in the works for quite a number of years now. Monsanto is poised to reap the benefits of their gmos, since the spraying of aerosols of aluminum, and who knows what else are being used in the atmosphere.

http://amazinghealth.com/09.01.22-aluminum-resistant-seeds

I understand it is your hobby to spread the disinfo. I get it. But this scientific based community should at least get some respected info;

http://news.sciencemag.org/2010/01/bill-gates-funding-geoengineering-research

http://www.aaas.org/news/experts-aa...roversial-geoengineering-ideas-cooling-planet

http://www.aaas.org/news/researchers-discuss-understudied-geoengineering-approaches-climate-change

http://www.sciencemag.org/content/339/6125/1278

I have read the contrailscience link that you have provided numerous times. So your saying, certain atmospheric conditions *must* be present to account for some of the trails. I am not at all denying that there ARE true contrails, I see them all the time with my kids, and we can see where the planes can cause them, and then they dissipate after 20 mins or so, sometimes less.
But, this is not what is causing concern to most of the populace that is putting time and effort into uncovering exactly what the other "trails" are. There is real engineering of the climate going on, whether you want to accept it or not. I just felt the need to stop all the contrail; "chemtrail" bullshit, and actually discuss the real modification of weather that is taking place. There is no legislation that protects what is done in the stratosphere, or the debris or aerosols released for private or "black project" companies. There is legislation that prohibits the secretary of defense from spraying stuff, but that is easily looped-holed, by subcontracting through another company.

http://www.geoengineeringwatch.org/...s-without-the-informed-consent-of-the-public/

original legislation without article review :
http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/50/1520a

I await your rebuttal, and please use the correct term : geoengineering
 

Bob Solomon

New Member
There is real engineering of the climate going on, whether you want to accept it or not.
I couldn't find any evidence of this in your links. All I saw was discussion, theory, proposals, research. I didn't go to geoengineeringwatch and am unlikely to. Can you direct me to your evidence of 'climate engineering'? I take it you don't mean weather modification?
 

MikeC

Closed Account
. There is legislation that prohibits the secretary of defense from spraying stuff, but that is easily looped-holed, by subcontracting through another company.

http://www.geoengineeringwatch.org/...s-without-the-informed-consent-of-the-public/

original legislation without article review :
http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/50/1520a

According to that link to the original legislation:

(my emphasis by underlining, bold & Italic)

Seems to me you might have misread that bit - it is very clear that the SecDef CANNOT contract out of this legislation.
 
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Pete Tar

Senior Member.
There is real engineering of the climate going on, whether you want to accept it or not.
All you have to do is prove it, then it will be accepted. Your only evidence so far seems to be concept proposals and analysis, why did you withhold the actual evidence that proves it's happening?

Do you dispute the basic points shown in this thread - that aluminium toxicity in acid soil has long been an issue for agriculture, before any concept of geo-engineering even existed, so the idea that Monsanto are only patenting aluminium resistant seeds to combat deliberately introduced aluminium in the environment is not a valid conclusion;
and that actually putting that aluminium there in the first place would be a huge endeavour, ie. -

"Even though spraying aluminum would not make much difference, consider just how much aluminum you'd need to spray to raise the amount of aluminum in the soil by 1%.

There's about 470 million acres of arable land in the US. The topsoil is about the top six inches. So that's 290 billion cubic meters of topsoil. 1% of that is 2.9 billion cubic meters. Soil is about 1500 kg/cu.m, so that's, 4.35 billion tonnes of aluminum needed to raise the aluminum content of soil by 1% (i.e. from 8% to 9%)

Most of the world's production of Aluminum comes from bauxite. The total world production of bauxite is around 200 million tonnes per year. Bauxite is only about 50% aluminum by weight.

Hence, to increase the aluminum content of US arable land by 1%, you would need to spray the equivalent of 40 years of the entire world's production of bauxite.

And that's assuming you can somehow target just the arable land. That certainly does not seem to be the case with the reported "spray" patterns. Arable land is only about 20% of the total land area of the US. So you'd need around five times that much, or 200 years worth."

You seem to have completely ignored the actual argument.
 

Efftup

Senior Member.
It has been in the works for quite a number of years now. Monsanto is poised to reap the benefits of their gmos, since the spraying of aerosols of aluminum, and who knows what else are being used in the atmosphere.
Having done the donkey work I would expect someone putting forward a chemtrail theory to have done I have discovered the following:

FACT: Cloudseeding is real and has been practiced for some time.
Chemicals used in Cloud seeding :
Silver iodide (silver and Iodine)
Solid Carbon Dioxide (Dry Ice) Carbon And Oxygen
Liquid Propane (carbon and Hydrogen)
Sodium Chloride (table Salt)Sodium and Chlorine

FACT: There are PROPOSALS for Geo Engineering/Climate Engineering.

These seem to be either
Solar Radiation Management:
chemicals used being Sulphate aerosols basically all combinations of Sulphur, Hydrogen and Oxygen.

OR Carbon Dioxide Removal.

Various different ideas using: Various Magnesium silicates, (Magnesium, Oxygen, Silicon, Iron, Hydrogen)
Bio Char (Carbon with some ash)
various Compounds of calcium, Oxygen, Hydrogen and Sodium

There is a huge list of patents on Geo engineering Watch often tangentially related to the subject and I haven't had the time to go through them all.

Interestingly enough, you will notice something GLARINGLY missing from the above.

so far, I have found ONE Patent that mentions Barium, that is specifically to do with firing a Barium dispersal rocket into the upper atmosphere to create ion clouds.

and NOT ONE SINGLE MENTION of Aluminium.

So Aluminium which IS the 3rd most abundant element in the Earth's crust and appears quite regularly in soil and the dust that is blown around and then brought back down to the ground by rain etc, does not seem to appear in ANY known method for cloud seeding, OR any proposed method for geo engineering. that I have found so far. Any links to anything that DOES would be welcomed.

Interestingly as some proponents of chemtrails suggest the purpose of spraying is for mind control I have looked at as many possible mind control substances I can as well and most of them like LSD, Cannabis,mescaline, Scopolamine etc only contain some or all of the elements Carbon, Nitrogen, Hydrogen and Oxygen. Ketamine contains chlorine and Prozac contains Fluorine.
Again NO Barium or Aluminium.


So as far as I can see, Aluminium levels are NOT proof of Geo Engineering, or mind control programs even if they were not easily explained by its abundance in the Earth's Crust.

Interestingly these are the LISTED applications for Nanoparticles of AL203:
1. transparent ceramics: high-pressure sodium lamps, EP-ROM window; 2. cosmetic filler; 3. single crystal, ruby, sapphire, sapphire, yttrium aluminum garnet; 4. high-strength aluminum oxide ceramic, C substrate, packaging materials, cutting tools, high purity crucible, winding axle, bombarding the target, furnace tubes; 5. polishing materials, glass products, metal products, semiconductor materials, plastic, tape, grinding belt; 6. paint, rubber, plastic wear-resistant reinforcement, advanced waterproof material; 7. vapor deposition materials, fluorescent materials, special glass, composite materials and resins; 8. catalyst, catalyst carrier, analytical reagent; 9. aerospace aircraft wing leading edge.

All of this does make me wonder why chemtrail proponents are so obsessed with Aluminium and Barium.

Is it because this is part of a Lawyers argument making a case for spraying SOMETHING that Aluminium and Barium are practically the only things that you can detect if you examine soil or rainwater collected in a bucket on top of your pickup truck out in the open air in summer? Is lining all this to Monsanto's Aluminium resistant seeds MORE lawyer's case building? We all know Monsanto are evil right? so link them in with it and we prove SOMETHING.

Is there any actual scientific argument suggesting any real use for spraying Aluminium that whoever is allegedly spraying would have?
 

Hama Neggs

Senior Member.
I am not at all denying that there ARE true contrails, I see them all the time with my kids, and we can see where the planes can cause them, and then they dissipate after 20 mins or so, sometimes less.

This is a bit off-topic, but your entire premise seems to be based on the idea that normal contrails can't persist for more than 20 minutes. That has been known to be false at least as far back as WW2 when bombers encountered their own contrails while returning from bombing runs over Germany. So, since that basic premise is wrong, it would seem that your conclusions should be re-evaluated.
 

Ross Marsden

Senior Member.
20 minutes.
Modern jets cruise at a tad over 500 mph, so a trail that persists for 20 minutes is going to be 160-odd miles long. By any definition, that is a persistent contrail, and many people would characterise it as a "chemtrail", based on the false idea that all contrails only last a few seconds (say 5 to 7 seconds) before dissipating.

I think, Mr.B, you need to explain how you differentiate between a contrail and what you are calling (I guess) the visible evidence for the geoengineering you claim is going on. I don't want to put words in your mouth, so please correct me if I am wrong in my guess. I know you think this part of the discussion is 'contrail; "chemtrail" bullshit' and that you want to stop it. However it is exactly this that gives you the regular, almost daily, reinforcement of your false beliefs about the existence of an ongoing atmospheric geoengineering program. This is why believers are exhorted to "look up".
 

Belfrey

Senior Member.
I have read the contrailscience link that you have provided numerous times. So your saying, certain atmospheric conditions *must* be present to account for some of the trails. I am not at all denying that there ARE true contrails, I see them all the time with my kids, and we can see where the planes can cause them, and then they dissipate after 20 mins or so, sometimes less.
Do you have any response to all of the evidence presented on contrailscience and here that contrails can persist for hours, and have been observed to do so for as long as there's been high-altitude air travel?
 
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