This is a key point Iain. If you can't explain what the difference is, then there is no difference.
Please address this question.
Debunked: Iain Carstairs' Chemtrail Conspiracy Theories
- Thread starter Jay Reynolds
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This is a key point Iain. If you can't explain what the difference is, then there is no difference.
Please address this question.
iain carstairs
New Member
I have explained the differences in detail, so you can always refer to those answers.
If someone asks, what is the difference between cerulean and and cobalt, you might not know. Or if you do know, you would not be able to tell someone who knows nothing about them; no matter what you tell them, they still think they are the same, because they lack the capacity gained from observation. And of course, if they don't want to bother, then they won't.
But the differences are still there, and can easily be discerned by someone who spends time learning them. If someone hasn't spent that time, or isn't really capable of seeing the difference, what would be the point in explaining? You would just waste your time.
If someone asks, what is the difference between cerulean and and cobalt, you might not know. Or if you do know, you would not be able to tell someone who knows nothing about them; no matter what you tell them, they still think they are the same, because they lack the capacity gained from observation. And of course, if they don't want to bother, then they won't.
But the differences are still there, and can easily be discerned by someone who spends time learning them. If someone hasn't spent that time, or isn't really capable of seeing the difference, what would be the point in explaining? You would just waste your time.
Let me ask you this then:
How long can a contrail last?
Can contrails spread out?
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iain carstairs
New Member
Well, you could just show them this chart:
Condensation can dissipate at varying rates, of course. But it can't be created in vast permanent quantities by one plane, and not at all by another, when the jet fuel and the air are the same.
It would help if the white muck layers appeared on civilian tracking systems, so they could be identified. Then all questions would be directed to the operator of the airplane!
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Jazzy
Closed Account
For any ambient temperature or humidity there is only one rate. And the word is evaporation.
But the air isn't "the same" anywhere, is it?
The lower stratosphere is so-called because it is layered with different humidities, "stratum" being Latin for layer.
But not all aircraft can be identified, can they?
Best ask yourself if you are fully-informed, first. I don't believe you are.
How long can a contrail last?
Can contrails spread out?
Yes it can:
Source: http://elib.dlr.de/9281/1/AIAA-2715-2000.pdf
Usually though it's because the planes are at slightly different altitudes. See:
http://contrailscience.com/why-do-some-planes-leave-long-trails-but-others-dont/
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Jay Reynolds
Senior Member.
Iain,
Your government has decided to not make their CAA feeds available to the public. Here is the US, all commercial flights have been available since 1999, when I first started using them. For an example, see this youtube userwho found that ALL "chemtrails" (actually simple persistent contrails) over Las Vegas came from identifiable commercial planes:
​
Your analogy using colors is not valid. There are different individual degrees of color perception, some folks are genetically color deficient to some degree.
I am one of those persons, specifically in the red/green colors.
Compared to a person with complete and perfect rod/cone ability, I am genetically unable to discern some color variations which you would have no problem distinguishing.
A better analogy would be to compare you (as if you were a color deficient person) to the Las Vegas Skywatch guy (perfect color vision).
He has the use of better perception because here in the US we do not rely on the newer ADS-B feeds not currently installed on all planes. Las Vegas Skywatch is using feeds from transponders which feed data to the FAA (our CAA). All planes have these transponders. The second advantage Las Vegas Skywatch has is experience and some good camera skills enabling him to actually discern and record some of the planes he sees by their livery markings.
However, if you continue insisting the belief that historically no contrails have persisted, and thus any persistence is a sign of "spraying", you might as well changethe name of your blog from Science and Religion to just Religion.
iain carstairs
New Member
Exactly right! How else can you determine what is in a cloud of chemicals? You need a Spectroscope!
The Spectral Angle Mapper (SAM) can directly compare image spectra to a known spectra (usually determined in a lab or in the field with a spectrometer) or an endmember. This method treats both (the questioned and known) spectra as vectors and calculates the spectral angle between them. This method is insensitive to illumination since the SAM algorithm uses only the vector direction and not the vector length. The result of the SAM classification is an image showing the best match at each pixel. This method is typically used as a first cut for determining the mineralogy and works well in areas of homogeneous regions. The USGS maintains a large spectral library, mostly composed of mineral and soil types, which image spectra can be directly compared.
These things are VERY expensive. But if we only had one, you could point it at the heaviest density of cloud and determine if it was condensation, or some kind of chemical. I'm all for it! Richard Dawkins explains it on page 171 of Magic of Reality. Get a copy - educate yourself!
I thought you could tell the difference by looking at them?
And spectroscopes range from $10 to $500, not really very expensive.
iain carstairs
New Member
I think anyone with experience can tell the difference by looking at them, just like the cerulean and cobalt. It's when you're dealing with people who can't tell the difference, or who don't believe there's a difference, or who refuse to listen to you, that you need some kind of machinery to take the place of their brain.
So I could get a spectrometer accurate to 8 km for $500? If that's the case, Im sold - my colleague in toxicology said they were more like $200,000 but perhaps he imagined I was aiming it at the moon
So I could get a spectrometer accurate to 8 km for $500? If that's the case, Im sold - my colleague in toxicology said they were more like $200,000 but perhaps he imagined I was aiming it at the moon
I suspect he was thinking of a per-pixel spectral classifier. For "chemtrail" vs contrail you'd just need a point sample.
Anyway, if you need to have experience to tell the difference, then how did you notice the difference in the first place.
What is the difference? I can show you the difference between shades of blue very easily, why can't you show the difference between a chemtrail and a contrail.
Can you show one photo of a high altitude trail that is not a contrail?
Rico
Senior Member.
Maybe perhaps in point form (and perhaps in it's own topic) you can describe the difference? I can't for the life of me understand it, and I fly and work around airplanes for a living. The framework I have for contrails is that they bear many similar properties to cloud, since both are dealing with water vapour and condensed visible moisture. It's not that I want to not believe, it's just that everything described about chemtrails fit so neatly into the framework for contrails that there is just no reason to suspect otherwise.
Iain, you'd previously said "Rather than dissipate as condensation would naturally do, these chemicals are highly persistent". Is that how you tell the difference? Can you put some numbers to it?
MikeC
Closed Account
Range is not an issue - all spectroscopes/spectrometers do is analyse light. Some of them are designed to sit on a desk and have some material put into them in a laboratory setting (eg see this one), others are designed to accept light from an external source such as for astronomy, temperatuer measurement or a wide variety of other appications (eg see this one)
iain carstairs
New Member
Mick, forget all that - we just go round in circles wasting time. I am now focused on getting an affordable spectrometer. If I can get an accurate reading from a distance of 8km, that's all I need. If I can achieve that I will let you know, and we can talk about scientific results. I don't actually think I can get a device that will give accurate readings from that distance but at least I'm willing to try. Mike, Thanks for the info - I will go over it
Meantime I have a water sample awaiting analysis - this is a rain water sample, about 250 ml taken over 3 days after some really heavy sprays. If my theory is right, chemicals will show up in some way in the rainwater. Maybe I'll be wrong, and of course I hope I am. But I'll wait until I get the sample done - and then let you know the results
Meantime I have a water sample awaiting analysis - this is a rain water sample, about 250 ml taken over 3 days after some really heavy sprays. If my theory is right, chemicals will show up in some way in the rainwater. Maybe I'll be wrong, and of course I hope I am. But I'll wait until I get the sample done - and then let you know the results
Belfrey
Senior Member.
But surely (just as an artist learns names for different shades), this "experience" must have involved some positively identified "chemtrails" by which to train your eye and discern them from persistent contrails. How did you learn which was which to begin with?
Jolly good, and you might look into the MODIS images in different spectral bands to see if the trails look unlike clouds.
And could you also comment on being wrong about the Phelps?
https://www.metabunk.org/threads/12...ck-and-Laura-Phelps-actors-Jennifer-Greenberg
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Cairenn
Senior Member.
Rainwater samples will have all sort of contaminants and many of those will be be from hundreds of miles away.
If you left the sample open, then 'dust' of other types entered it.
Last year, I had a booth, next to a road with heavy traffic. After the show, I washed my hair and black 'soot' washed out. Particles from the diesel exhaust. I ended up washing my jewelry and finding more of it. In general, after 3 outdoor shows, I wash my jewelry to get rid of the dust and dirt that it picks up. It is very important for soft, easily scratched stones like amber and pearls. Over time, just the airborne dust will scratched the amber to the point it has to be repolished
If you left the sample open, then 'dust' of other types entered it.
Last year, I had a booth, next to a road with heavy traffic. After the show, I washed my hair and black 'soot' washed out. Particles from the diesel exhaust. I ended up washing my jewelry and finding more of it. In general, after 3 outdoor shows, I wash my jewelry to get rid of the dust and dirt that it picks up. It is very important for soft, easily scratched stones like amber and pearls. Over time, just the airborne dust will scratched the amber to the point it has to be repolished
MikeC
Closed Account
Michael J Murphy disagrees. He's the guy who made the 2 WITWATS movies - he says that persistent contrails do exist, and the only way to actually know the difference is to take a sample:
​
David Fraser
Senior Member.
What chemicals are you not expecting? Have you got some historical data to match up with it? How far are you from Little Barford? Don't forget to get some emmission data from them as well as any industry near by. Your local authority may have some, quite often online for acidic compounds. The people that compiled this report may be able to give you some direction as to content of rainwater samples as they are not done as standard by industry. The water industry only starts with groundwater as in this report.
http://cdn.environment-agency.gov.uk/geho0807bnao-e-e.pdf
One thing chemtrailers seem to forget is to provide numerous samples an average reading. For water quality that us a bare minimum of 3 but the more the merrier.
iain carstairs
New Member
I just spoke to that guy at the spectrometr place and he was very helpful - but he said what we need is a reflective spectometer, and his equipment is for local samples that are passed through, with the equipment calibrated in advance for what you're looking for. Reflective spectrometers seem to be in the tens of thousands of dollars, but I might be able to talk someone up in Cambridge into having a field day with one, who knows.
As for the Phelps couple, I don't have any proof the people labelled "Phelps" are actually the Phelps. Perhaps they are, perhaps they're someone else altogether.. who can say? I don't know. And if they are "the Phelps", what evidence do we have that they are genuine parents of Sandy Hook? Maybe they are.. and maybe they aren't. I sure can't tell
As for the Phelps couple, I don't have any proof the people labelled "Phelps" are actually the Phelps. Perhaps they are, perhaps they're someone else altogether.. who can say? I don't know. And if they are "the Phelps", what evidence do we have that they are genuine parents of Sandy Hook? Maybe they are.. and maybe they aren't. I sure can't tell
iain carstairs
New Member
Sure, it's a good point. But the collector was away from the road, and away from any overhanging roof tiles etc. And of course, if there are any results, I would be looking for high levels of unusual substances, not things you would commonly find from the roads. It's still worth doing. The thing is, when it rains here there's a kind of caustic smell in the air. I don't know really what it is. But it's a metallic sort of thing - hard to describe. Maybe exhaust stuff, maybe industrial. But anyway, the test kit is ordered, let's wait and see
My point is that they are not the other people in your image. You claimed "The Phelps couple were very obvious Greenbergs". They did not. You were wrong. Could you at least admit that?
MikeC
Closed Account
Even then there is dust in the air.
MikeC
Closed Account
The one I linked to above has this feature:
The spectrometer takes input through a SMA connector port. Usually a fiber patch cord is used to transmit light into the spectrometer. However it’s also possible to send the input light directly into the spectrometer through the input slit.
who is to tell you you are real, or tell me I am me? Perhap the earth is just a mote of pollen inside a massive seed pod?
It's a pretty silly argument.
iain carstairs
New Member
He seems to say, 2:19, "but where they're spraying, is up in the stratosphere. and there's very rarely, much if any humidity up in those areas and you will not get persistent contrails in there."
Today I saw a BA flight at 29,000 feet, no contrail at all. Zero. He was literally floating in the blue. but left and right were long white streamers from non-trackable planes, and this stuff hung around a very long time - I would say most of the day, from 11:00 am ish to late afternoon.
Cairenn
Senior Member.
Dust from the Sahara is killing coral reefs in the Caribbean
http://earthobservatory.nasa.gov/Features/Dust/
What is in your rain water has little to nothing to do with what is happening in the area where there are contrails.
http://earthobservatory.nasa.gov/Features/Dust/
What is in your rain water has little to nothing to do with what is happening in the area where there are contrails.
David Fraser
Senior Member.
High levels? Define high levels? See my post above? Have you adequately mapped the industry in your area? I once worked on a project and I had to take the Drax power station into account and that was over 40 miles away. Have you got some historical data. There are a few reports around like thus one to give you an idea. This has great sampling as well
http://www.ceoe.udel.edu/CMS/tchurch/TMCWebPage/pdfweb61-90/77.pdf
Photo with houses in shot? Exact time? Planefinder link?
iain carstairs
New Member
This is crazy. There's like eight questions demanding replies across multiple blogs. besides private messages from someone on your blog, I got Mick, MikeC, Cairenn, Belfrey - It's like some kind of mugging! You're gonna have to wait, or get busy picking someone else to pieces - I'm busy looking at spectrometry stuff! I'm only one person, not five!
JRBids
Senior Member.
Well I've been observing also, for nearly 60 years. Please explain how you can tell the difference between clouds and chemtrail creations. Also explain the difference between a chemtrail and contrail. Thank you.
As is believing conspiracy theories. Which 9/11 theory do you subscribe to? Controlled demolition? Bush and Cheney? Dustification? Holograms? Did I miss any?
I'm not sure how not seeing any evidence of chemtrailing = defending the government. That's like saying athiesm is a religion.
Do you believe we went to the moon?
iain carstairs
New Member
I'm not a forensic scientist, I'm giving you my observation. BA flight - no contrail. Zero, Zilch. Way too far away for an iPhone pic. Ok, that's it - you're going to have to find something else to do. Reboot server time over here, then SQL backups. So long
JRBids
Senior Member.
If they can be easily discerned, tell me how. It should be simple and you should be able to do it in a few sentences. I'm not expecting a gish gallop.
HappyMonday
Moderator
I'd like to see the source for your 'test kit', do you have a link or an online listing?
JRBids
Senior Member.
I saw Obama on TV. How can I know he's really Obama? I mean, they said he was, it looked like him, but how can I know?
Cairenn
Senior Member.
Some of us are just pointing out that testing rainwater is not going to give you any proof, it is just a waste of time, IF the purpose is to prove chem trails
I want to know how to tell the difference between them. I can explain the differences between cerulean and cobalt. Do you want me to, so you have an example of what we are asking?
I want to know how to tell the difference between them. I can explain the differences between cerulean and cobalt. Do you want me to, so you have an example of what we are asking?
Jay Reynolds
Senior Member.
I would say this is important. Unless you did, and especially if you hadn't seen the full range of behavior for ordinary contrails persistent and non-persistent, how would you really know?
I have another analogy for you Iain. A true story, and a traumatic one for me.
About ten years old I was assigned in Art class to paint a portion of a fresco to be used as a backdrop for the school Christmas Play. The class only had to paint between the lines of a pre-drawn section of paper to be hung in the auditorium.
We had a full table of tempera water color paints to choose from, and I chose to paint the Camel arriving at Nazareth. Once I had completed my work, the Art Teacher confronted me (she must have seemed nearly ten feet tall, and nearly 400 lbs.) she furiously demanded, "JAY REYNOLDS WHAT ON EARTH DO YOU THINK YOU ARE DOING, YOU HAVE ABSOLUTELY RUINED THE MURAL FOR EVERYONE!!"
I had painted the Camel green.
I tried to talk my way out of it. I said, but I've never actually seen Camel! How do I know what color they are?
DON'T TRY TO FOOL ME, YOUNG MAN, EVERYONE KNOWS CAMELS AREN'T GREEN!
I had to admit she had me there...... I knew camels werent green, but I had no idea how my work had turned out that way.
No idea. Yes, the green wasn't exactly like the grass, to me it was close enough. Therewas simply no explaining away what I had done, and I really hadn't a clue why it went so wrong!
She would have none of it, and I was marched straight to the Principal's office and got a whipping.
Yes, things were different in schools in 1965.....
You see, Iain, I had no idea that I was color deficient in the green range. I didn't really know what I was doing. No one else knew, and likely they never did. I know I didn't realize what had actually happened for over ten years after, when I had the opportunity to be tested for color vision. I shudder to recall the embarrassment on that day.
This is the point you are currently at. You've probably never seen what a plane spraying a substance looks like, except you have, haven't you?
You've probably seen skywriting, or smoke from an aerobatics display, and the AWACS fuel dump, you can see what those look like.
Do any of those look like what you have been photographing and calling "chemtrails?
Of course they don't, and you certainly must see that.
But do any of your photos look like photos of known contrails, such as this one from the 1957 Farnsborough Air Show?
LINK to documentation for above photo
Yes, of course they do, correct, yes or no?
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I'm more interested in pics with contrails being formed where you claim you can't identify the plane. I strongly suspect that you are mostly just doing it wrong, and underestimating the distance to the plane. Like with the TOM513 flight that looks overhead, but is 4 miles away:
https://www.metabunk.org/posts/29854
A very hand iPhone app is Theodolite
http://hrtapps.com/theodolite/
Which I use to determine distances:
http://contrailscience.com/how-far-away-is-that-contrail/
Like these, starting at 70 miles away:
Or this one, 16 miles away, but "above" my neighbors house:
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