Follow along with the video below to see how to install our site as a web app on your home screen.
Note: This feature may not be available in some browsers.
MH370 speculation has become excessive recently. Metabunk is not a forum for creating theories by speculation. It's a forum for examining claims, and seeing if they hold up. Please respect this and keep threads on-topic. There are many other forums where speculation is welcome.
You should read the article. I do not think that the author meant it negatively, or that he has something against Metabunk. On my mind he simply wanted to express that Metabunk rejected GeoResonance's claims much stronger and firmer than any mass media, that's all. No critics of Metabunk at all, as I see it.
I can't see any mention of anything related to the GeoResonance "technology". Just in case I missed something, here's the original, untranslated, page:
The peer review process can appear rude to people unfamiliar with it. I just think the reporter couldn't come up with a better word: "harsh" is more realistic.
This thread has povided a lot of entertainment for me over the last few days, up until then i'd been following the aviation side of things on some forums that inevitably linked this thread once GR appeared. Now I have a new source of enlightning reading!
I was sorely tempted, living in Adelaide to actually go to GR's offices and see if they really exist, as it turns out MediaWatch essentially did this for me, so that saved a trip.
I saw the mediawatch article last night on TV, I don't think they were being critical when they mentioned the "rude" posts, Australians, and in particular mediawatch have always been fairly tongue-in-cheek. I supsect they were simply making comment about the fact that this thread was far more (rightly) critical of GR's claims and was probably as much a comment about the main stream media's lack lustre reporting of it's junk status, especially the outlet that reported their findings in the first place.
I'm certainly not an expert on Aussie law but I suspect laying charges would be difficult, as much as i'd love to see it. You'd have to prove that the Australian component knew a deception was taking place, otherwise I'd suspect they would hide behind common law/good samariten etc.
The peer review process can appear rude to people unfamiliar with it. I just think the reporter couldn't come up with a better word: "harsh" is more realistic.
I'm certainly not an expert on Aussie law but I suspect laying charges would be difficult, as much as i'd love to see it. You'd have to prove that the Australian component knew a deception was taking place, otherwise I'd suspect they would hide behind common law/good samariten etc.
I think it would be worth it just to watch them plead abject stupidity in open court. Let them admit openly that Georesonance has no direct employees with scientific expertise in NMR or RF electronics. Let them claim that they saw nothing amiss with the fact that Tellus, one of (according to Mediawatch) only 2 clients, is in deep financial hot water, with its shares at gumball-machine prices and its gross revenues only covering a fraction of their top executives' compensation, despite having availed itself of their low-cost, positively miraculous survey technology. Let them explain they really thought they had "exclusive access" to the technology being sold by SNUNEI, when they claim some of these other companies' projects as their own.
They seem to claim that the spectra that is recorded in the lactose-PVC layered images created from the satellite photos, contains high-frequency spectra (0.1-10 THz), that are then "excited" with the neutron flux of 2 x 10^12 n/cm²/s. If I understand it correctly, according to the document the NMR is not performed from the satellite on the explored area, but on the lactose-PVC images being excited by the radiation, and the resonance spectra is then recorded by antennas focused on the object.
Don't ask me how the high frequency spectra landed on the plain spectra satellite imagery, and how it was transmitted from the satellites, when they use digital transmission with much lower sampling rate than would be necessary for that frequency band. As already stated before, they seem to claim that even plain photos (even those printed from digital source) contain the whole spectra of the imaged object (including spectra of everything what lays down to 5000 m below the surface).
I guess they could easily use their "Poïsk" facility also for medical diagnostics - you just send them your digital photo by email, they pass it through their equipment, convert into a lactose-PVC hologram, irradiate, and expose to high-frequency electric field caught on Kyrlian photography, and they send you back a perfect scan of your body. It might be their next area of expertise.
EDIT: in fact you do not even need to send them your photo - you send them just a photo of your hat. Since they can see what's deep under it anyway, the photo of the whole body would be completely redundant.
As already stated before, they seem to claim that even plain photos (even those printed from digital source) contain the whole spectra of the imaged object
Uff, I do not really know right now, would have to go through all the websites and documents again, but since it is clear they cannot use any analog photos from satellites (plain commercial satellites are used), and with certitude did not scan the 2,000,000 km² with planes, it is clear they use digital imagery. However, I believe they state it also explicitly on some of their websites, or in some of the documents I have read. I am just lazy to search it, so if you do not trust me, just ignore it.
BTW, they never stated that they had own satellites. In contrary, everywhere (including in one of the interviews of Mr. Kursa), they tell rather clearly that they use wide spectra imagery from existing commercial satellites. So no secret or military satellites. In one of my previous posts, I even posted a link to a document where they list 6 different commercial satellites they claimed to be using as source. Just look it up back in this thread. Analog photographs from satellites are nonsense. Although it has been done in the early times of the satellite era, the cost of each photo was astronomic - each satellite had only one or several few return capsules, with a parachute to be then caught by a plane in a risky maneuver.
Click the N in CORONA to see how crazy the capsule recovery was. Corona had two return capsules. So if SNUNEI used such system, they would need to pay millions for each photo. Now imagine how much the search of 2,000,000 km² (in plus twice) would cost, and how long it would take. That is simply plain nonsense, and it is absolutely certain that they use digital imagery. Better told, in reality I am still persuaded they just use Google Maps and Photoshop.
BTW, they never stated that they had own satellites. In contrary, everywhere (including in one of the interviews of Mr. Kursa), they tell rather clearly that they use wide spectra imagery from existing commercial satellites. So no secret or military satellites. In one of my previous posts, I even posted a link to a document where they list 6 different commercial satellites they claimed to be using as source. Just look it up back in this thread.
BTW, on the page of the St. Petersburg University showing an information about the Space and Geoinformation Technologies Resource Center (referred to by Dr. Gokh) (http://sgt.spbu.ru/en/), they list all 6 satellites used by the technology. So there are no secret military satellites as far as I can tell:
Terra, Aqua, SPOT-4, SPOT-5, EROS A, RADARSAT-1
I guess, it might be possible to find out in what spectrum their imagery is done.
EDIT - better told the Space and Geoinformation Technologies Resource Center is being referred to by Dr. Gokh, but I do not know whether he is related to it (he is not mentioned there), or whether he just abuses their legit research in remote geophysical sensing. Unlike Gokh, they do not claim any miraculous results, and no processing by nuclear reactor or Kirillian photography (as far as I can see right now).
How exactly did you connect the dots between St. Petersburg and Sevastopol (that they use same sats)? I didn't notice any obvious links at least in that St. Petersburg site.
Analog photographs from satellites are nonsense. Although it has been done in the early times of the satellite era, the cost of each photo was astronomic - each satellite had only one or several few return capsules, with a parachute to be then caught by a plane in a risky maneuver.
First of all according to that, there's a satellite involved with an orbit height of 280km. So it's not Landsat (Orbit height 700km+). We are now talking about someone who actually has their own nuclear reactor, so the satellite might also be sort of their own (some ex-military sat released for other uses). It's apparently used for spectral analysis but unclear if it has anything to do with obtaining those analog photos or just used for some initial wider area spectral survey.
The analog images seem to be collected with a plane, so I don't think there's any hilarious digital->analog conversion there. Also there is some kind of laser beam modulation involved during the imaging. It's unclear to me if that is done by the same plane which does the imaging.
txt29 is correct but I can no longer point to the exact website (there are just too many making similar claims). The "belief" was that old fashion film recorded information into the terahertz range; not true (radiation at those frequencies can not pass through a normal glass lens), but at least could be argued in analog measurements. These high frequency signals are recovered through treatment in a nuclear reactor and exposure to Kirlian photography. I believe they use different frequencies at the Kirlian stage to "highlight" different elements. One of the many flaws in the GR story is that even if they could record terahertz range EMR it has virtually no penetration capability. From Wikipedia on Terahertz radiation: "The penetration depth is typically less than that of microwave radiation. Terahertz radiation has limited penetration through fog and clouds and cannot penetrate liquid water or metal."
First of all according to that, there's a satellite involved with an orbit height of 280km. So it's not Landsat (Orbit height 700km+). We are now talking about someone who actually has their own nuclear reactor, so the satellite might also be sort of their own (some ex-military sat released for other uses). It's apparently used for spectral analysis but unclear if it has anything to do with obtaining those analog photos or just used for some initial wider area spectral survey.
The analog images seem to be collected with a plane, so I don't think there's any hilarious digital->analog conversion there. Also there is some kind of laser beam modulation involved during the imaging. It's unclear to me if that is done by the same plane which does the imaging.
Mr. Kursa clearly told in his first interview with Adelaide Now that they used "existing multispectral images". So you really believe that they have a satellite that permanently scans the entire globe, and each few days drops a return capsule on a parachute that they collect it with planes? And they do this since some 25 years (they told they used an USSR-era technology). How many tens of tons of films, capsules, and parachutes do you believe their satellite carries?
To revisit your earlier speculations. No way you could fly airborne imagery over 2 million Km^2 of open ocean in the time frame they claim - would take many months, multiple aircraft, and cost 10's of millions. I am not even sure there is that much aerial photographic film left in the world! Nowhere in the doc you cited do I see anything about lasers for the the "first stage of work".
Mr. Kursa clearly told in his first interview with Adelaide Now that they use "existing multispectral images". So you really believe that they have a satellite that permanently scans the entire globe, and each few days drops a return capsule on a parachute that they collect it with planes? And they do this since some 25 years (they told they used an USSR-era technology). How many tens of tons of films, capsules, and parachutes do you believe their satellite carries?
Did you actually read what I said about the sat in the quote above? I said it's "unclear if it has anything to do with obtaining those analog photos". In my opinion they have claimed they are flying a plane that has some sort of camera that collects the images. And what I also stated earlier is that it's clear they just can't scan all that area with a plane, so the sat would have to be used for somehow finding out the area worth sending the plane, which obviously is a problem as what could they then gather with the sat to enable them to focus their search for the plane. So I agree with you, things don't add up, just saying that I haven't seen them making the claim of collecting those analog photos specifically with the sat.
To revisit your earlier speculations. No way you could fly airborne imagery over 2 million Km^2 of open ocean in the time frame they claim - would take many months, multiple aircraft, and cost 10's of millions. I am not even sure there is that much aerial photographic film left in the world!
See my response above. And I have to emphasize that, no, I am in no way claiming what they say makes sense, just trying to avoid making specific claims I haven't seen them say.
Order and obtaining the required number of aerospace photographs of the investigated territory during simultaneous "highlighting" of the area with laser beam modulated with the rotating electromagnetic field of test holograms
That's exactly what I tell since the beginning - it is physically impossible to use analog photographs, so if we admit that they use any imagery at all, and not just Photoshop (which I believe is the case), then they use digital imagery.
It clearly shows the photos are being transmitted to the ground station from satellites and/or planes. So no developing of analog films at all. The "analog" films are then exposed from the digital data transmitted from the satellites or planes.
The mathematics has always been the Achilles Heel of their fabrication, they misunderstood the enormity of data and data processing by at least two orders of magnitude. That, and not realizing that in order to isolate likely MH370 candidate targets from all the other similar moving and stationary objects it would necessitate THREE different sets of data taken over time, not the two they claim, regardless the miraculous form of detection of choice.
It clearly shows the photos are being transmitted to the ground station from satellites and/or planes. So no developing of analog films at all. The "analog" films are then exposed from the digital data transmitted from the satellites or planes.
Actually, the amount of film required would easily allow for the roll to be long enough to reach from the satellite to the ground station, so maybe they are using their own secret satellite as others have suggested, but rather than being a survey ship it is geostationary, and they just have a 45,000 mile tethered film loop that continuously sends unexposed film up from the ground station and returns exposed. Alternatively, since they leverage "quantum mechanics" to such a high degree (which is often used by charlatans to make the impossible or incomprehensible, possible and acceptable), perhaps the film sheets are somehow "beamed" (maybe using the reactor) through two slits at the same time, but unlike a photon that reconstitutes itself on the other side, the film sheet then exists in two places at the same time, the ground station and the satellite, the two instances are exposed by the satellite camera and then by some other secret process the satellite instance is discarded without affecting the ground station instance. This might be done with a modified turbo-encabultor that uses deltoid studs and chlorescent sklor motion, so basically the satellite copy disappears, meanwhile they develop the ground film and put it through the rest of the reactor processing. I challenge anybody to prove that they couldn't possibly be doing this, or that it could not be done in an alternative universe and/or the results transmitted here via the wormhole portal in that buried Ukrainian pyramid.
Oh, InterpreDemon, you do crack me up! I cannot tell you how much I enjoy reading your posts. I just hope those GeoResonance guys are reading the posts here - somehow, I don't think they'll be having as much of a laugh as we are right now. Wouldn't it be great if Metabunk had a 24hr TV channel...
And, I think you need to edit your post (#384) to include some sort of Intellectual Property notice - otherwise those scammers out their might just try and steal your "idea" and market it as their own!
EDIT: in fact you do not even need to send them your photo - you send them just a photo of your hat. Since they can see what's deep under it anyway, the photo of the whole body would be completely redundant.
I am afraid that if Mr. Kursa, Mr. Pope, Dr. Gokh, and others read this thread, they are amused even more than we are, because they probably never hoped their claims could have been taken seriously to that extent that someone would ever try to debunk them. So, by analyzing it here seriously, we make them just laugh on our naivety. I also do not think that they fear their reputation could be harmed by the debunking. If they manage to get some victims paying them for the exploration tricks, those would not learn from this discussion anything anyway, and would continue to believe in their voodoo regardless how much they already were ridiculed. Members posting in this thread, like Anti-Spin, Unknown Soldier, or Vooke are the best proof of it.
That's exactly what I tell since the beginning - it is physically impossible to use analog photographs, so if we admit that they use any imagery at all, and not just Photoshop (which I believe is the case), then they use digital imagery.
I doubt they used Photoshop to construct an obvious fraud - that is easy to detect. I suspect that they follow through with the process as described as it probably keeps a cottage industry based on it going in Ukraine (sorry, I guess it is now Russia). The Blobby aircraft looks a lot like examples of Kirlian photography you see online, e.g.
At the end of the day it doesn't matter what they use for imagery, there is no method for identifying elements at the bottom of the sea! My point is that exposing the irradiated film to Kirlian photography will potentially generate fuzzy, blobby anomalies, do enough of them and you will get something kind of shaped like an airplane. Who knows, maybe someone in Ukraine put a little scratch on the film to help the likelihood of an airplane appearing along.
It clearly shows the photos are being transmitted to the ground station from satellites and/or planes. So no developing of analog films at all. The "analog" films are then exposed from the digital data transmitted from the satellites or planes.
aerospace photography of the ground to forecast the deposit
And this text next to the plane:
aerospace photography of the search area
So there's some difference how they are used.
To really illustrate my approach in this and why I care about these details and am so cautious about what exactly they themselves have claimed, let's have a thought experiment in how it could go if you and I could get a chance to have a debate with those GeoResonance guys. And before going on, I want to emphasize that I don't expect everybody would or should make their arguments with this kind of approach, but just to illustrate how I think about it.
Let's say you would say to them that they are using digital images from commercial satellites, because they can't be analog or can't be from a plane as the area is so big etc. They would then say to you that, no, we use analog, plane, etc. and we have said it clearly here and here. You may have noticed some obvious problems in what they have said, and tried to make some sense of it with a couple of assumptions of your own, but that way you pretty much lost the argument already and got the burden of proof on your side.
Similarly if you base your arguments on something like them using, say, digital 24-bit rgb images to extract something that couldn't fit into 24-bits, you are basically calling them all complete idiots. And if my hunch is right that they are just misguided scientists, but still scientists, it's highly unlikely all of them would be so stupid.
And yes, based on all that we know, it probably wouldn't really change the end result whether they used a satellite, plane, magic wand or tarot cards. As there's that small problem of the plane not being there. But still they can have an endless list of excuses. Like that silt they already mentioned, all 6 micrometers of it or so according to the silt accumulation figures mentioned here, and that's already based on the rather generous assumption of the silt actually climbing on top of the plane and sticking there, on the vertical surfaces and all. But nevertheless it's pretty much impossible to win with arguments you can't really prove, or even worse, for which they can prove you wrong.
So what I would do instead would to rely primarily on claims they and their business partners have made themselves. Why yes, they might have lied. Good. That's my advantage.
I would probably start by asking about their connection to SNUNEI, as told by themselves in that Adelaidenow article. If they deny that connection, they just proved they have lied. I won.
If they acknowledge it, I would continue with the documents explaining the methods used by SNUNEI. If they claim those are forgeries, I would ask them to have their business partners validate that, and if they would call them forgeries as well, then I would have burned a couple of those other companies that have displayed such forgeries. I would count that as a win for me as well.
If both would be accepted as valid starting points, then I could continue with the details of those documents. I would ask a number of details like what is that satellite with orbit height of 280km. Then I would take on some specific details of their methods and state something like: look at this part here, I have this dude, David, here, who's an expert on these things, and he says that is garbage. And no, he's not a nuclear physicist, or leprechaun tamer, but he doesn't need to be, as that specific part does not involve any of that stuff.
In essence I'm saying that it's hard to lose if you start by taking the words of your opponents as facts (or acting as if you do), and prove things through their words, keeping the burden of proof on their side, so that even if something you said turns out to be untrue, it was their fault anyway.
I am afraid that if Mr. Kursa, Mr. Pope, Dr. Gokh, and others read this thread, they are amused even more than we are, because they probably never hoped their claims could have been taken seriously to that extent that someone would ever try to debunk them. So, by analyzing it here seriously, we make them just laugh on our naivety. I also do not think that they fear their reputation could be harmed by the debunking. If they manage to get some victims paying them for the exploration tricks, those would not learn from this discussion anything anyway, and would continue to believe in their voodoo regardless how much they already were ridiculed. Members posting in this thread, like Anti-Spin, Unknown Soldier, or Vooke are the best proof of it.
I think all of the companies promoting this are no more than a website and a couple of marketing types. The "47 scientists" are all in Sevastopol drawing subsistence level university salaries. If any of the companies can bring in a paying contract then people get commissions. I can't see any legitimate commercial petroleum or mineral exploration company buying into this. It is a scam for scam exploration companies: "cheap anomalies for sale to help you dupe investors".
Actually, the amount of film required would easily allow for the roll to be long enough to reach from the satellite to the ground station, so maybe they are using their own secret satellite as others have suggested, but rather than being a survey ship it is geostationary, and they just have a 45,000 mile tethered film loop that continuously sends unexposed film up from the ground station and returns exposed. Alternatively, since they leverage "quantum mechanics" to such a high degree (which is often used by charlatans to make the impossible or incomprehensible, possible and acceptable), perhaps the film sheets are somehow "beamed" (maybe using the reactor) through two slits at the same time, but unlike a photon that reconstitutes itself on the other side, the film sheet then exists in two places at the same time, the ground station and the satellite, the two instances are exposed by the satellite camera and then by some other secret process the satellite instance is discarded without affecting the ground station instance. This might be done with a modified turbo-encabultor that uses deltoid studs and chlorescent sklor motion, so basically the satellite copy disappears, meanwhile they develop the ground film and put it through the rest of the reactor processing. I challenge anybody to prove that they couldn't possibly be doing this, or that it could not be done in an alternative universe and/or the results transmitted here via the wormhole portal in that buried Ukrainian pyramid.
I think all of the companies promoting this are no more than a website and a couple of marketing types. The "47 scientists" are all in Sevastopol drawing subsistence level university salaries. If any of the companies can bring in a paying contract then people get commissions.
In essence I'm saying that it's hard to lose if you start by taking the words of your opponents as facts (or acting as if you do), and prove things through their words, keeping the burden of proof on their side, so that even if something you said turns out to be untrue, it was their fault anyway.
@bume
That just made my day.
Actually I thought before anything else is to aks them what can possibly go wrong with their methods. Don't get into specifics, just aks what else could be there apart from the wreck emitting whatever they are saying. That's simple, it's like the pings the ship were receiving in the middle of the ocean. One thing is clear; they were artificial. So, can you have Boeing shaped aluminium/copper deposits in the Andaman?
...Similarly if you base your arguments on something like them using, say, digital 24-bit rgb images to extract something that couldn't fit into 24-bits, you are basically calling them all complete idiots. And if my hunch is right that they are just misguided scientists, but still scientists, it's highly unlikely all of them would be so stupid.
No, they are not complete idiots, just frauds and hoaxers, who very often are quite intelligent as were Lex Luther and Professor Moriarty. As to any "scientists" being involved, misguided or otherwise, I would say that the language of science is mathematics, and from a mathematical viewpoint the challenge involved here and their claimed methodology for overcoming it are several orders of magnitude in disagreement, a difference far to great for any real scientist to have overlooked in crafting this fantasy. I knew it the instant I saw their meter-resolution "image" within a 75m grid allegedly located well apart from the final ping radius or any suspect region... that meant a large area search, performed three times in less time than was available, screening of any objects that appeared in search two that remained in search three, then getting more detailed raw data by some means to "image" the suspect targets (perhaps hundreds) and isolate MH370. Even if their detection technology worked, which is does not, the scheme fails miserably from a mathematical standpoint. Keep in mind that when they were searching for ocean junk from satellite data they were crowd sourcing the task with thousands of folks looking at images and there were only a handful of suspect objects that merited on-site verification.
No, none of these guys were scientists, but all of them were too smart by half.
Similarly if you base your arguments on something like them using, say, digital 24-bit rgb images to extract something that couldn't fit into 24-bits, you are basically calling them all complete idiots. And if my hunch is right that they are just misguided scientists, but still scientists, it's highly unlikely all of them would be so stupid.
Now, that's unfair. Recall that bluster and spin are skill sets in themselves. In fact I've met a disconcerting number of individuals in my career, often with all the right academic credentials, whose most salient job skills revolved around producing the appearance of doing real work. In any organization of sufficient size, there would in fact be whole clans of these people, who by such expedients as scheduling meetings for each other to attend, conspired together to maintain the appearance of hard work while accomplishing nothing.
On another note, it is an error to believe that non-stupid people cannot believe stupid things. In fact it happens all the time, most often when smart people forego subjecting those ideas to critical analysis. After all, they are certain they are smart people, therefore the idea could not possibly be stupid, because smart people do not believe stupid things.
On another note, it is an error to believe that non-stupid people cannot believe stupid things. In fact it happens all the time, most often when smart people forego subjecting those ideas to critical analysis. After all, they are certain they are smart people, therefore the idea could not possibly be stupid, because smart people do not believe stupid things.
Absolutely agree, especially with scientists. We all tend to have a "wow, did I miss out on something ground breaking?" insecurity gene. I might come off as a bit hard nosed about the technology in question, but I saw this (and "microlepton" scams) a few years ago, so I was read in. I also ran shallow water tank spectroscopy experiments when I was doing my Ph.D., so the concept of deep water penetration of optical wavelength EMR was a non-starter - I measured it myself.
One can of course argue who is worthy of such title but as far as job and honorary titles, place of work (Sevastopol university) etc. are concerned, I believe many of those involved would be classified as such. GeoResonance's claim of "47 scientists and nuclear physicists, including 5 professors and 12 PhDs" might actually be true.
Speaking of titles and such, here's some interesting endorsements of that tech on the site of one of the companies involved (assuming they are not forgeries):
You can get a PhD in almost any subject matter or field you choose to study, including the baloney sandwich from design to history, preparation and consumption.
Speaking of titles and such, here's some interesting endorsements of that tech on the site of one of the companies involved (assuming they are not forgeries):
Personally I'd not rely on the information published on a website of an apparent scammer too much. Nobody verified all those references, the titles, and the endorsements, as far as I know. Some may be partially real, some may be invented. Gokh probably has some kind of a degree or a title, and it is even possible that he was once a member of the Academy, but till now I did not find any proof other than claims on his websites, and on websites of the scam ring. Vitava also refers to some foreign scientists (Italy, Slovakia) as partners, but I have yet to hear back from them to see whether they know at all they were listed there, or whether their names were abused. The same goes for the work and names of some serious Russian scientists (who do really exist too - not all Russians are conmen). Many of those references may be simply used without the consent of the authors.
I just hope those GeoResonance guys are reading the posts here - somehow, I don't think they'll be having as much of a laugh as we are right now. Wouldn't it be great if Metabunk had a 24hr TV channel...
