Debunked: ArtificialClouds.com claims silver iodide causes chemtrails/global warming!

Mick West

Administrator
Staff member
Good point - the perspective can be tricky at those scales. Similar to how people see a spreading contrail from the a side angle, and think that it's "falling" or "dripping".
It quite often IS falling or dripping. Most of the initial spread of a contrail is vertical, and often with dripping pendules.

Here's a good perspective on that:

 

Jay Reynolds

Senior Member
As for your questions, it seems odd that you have arrived at your beliefs and starting making those assertions without finding out those answers first.
My thoughts exactly.
What sort of website makes claims that haven't even been researched?
Not a very good one!

That's a bad thing to do, Dave. Whatever possessed you to do such a thing?
 
D

Dave

Guest
No one accepts the producer's challenge for debate!

I encourage you to read the documentation at artificialclouds dotcom-- it IS there, just click on the menu.

Here's the thing: weather modification is done dozens of times in THOUSANDS of areas around the world every year. (Can we change the weather this much without affecting the "climate?")

Aircraft cannot avoid flying right through the silver iodide mist as they accelerate up to their cruising altitude.

Where there are thick, persistent contrails, there is weather modification nearby. Check for yourself.

And check for yourself what's in the flares: aluminum, strontium, magnesium, sulfur... NO KIDDING.


And dudes, really-- I love your skepticism, but y'aughta read the documentation before claiming anything is debunked.

(I still invite a real debate with anyone who believes they are knowledgeable enough to stand up to my questions.)




A scientific gem.....
 

Belfrey

Senior Member
Dave is on YouTube, still spreading his claims (although slightly modified after his previous interactions here).



He is claiming that cloud seeding flares contain aluminum, strontium, and barium (presumably to make his ideas more palatable to the typical "chemtrails" believer). He bases this on the idea that their incendiary components would be essentially the same as road flares - however, when pressed (in YT comments), he admitted that he didn't really know. It's just another assumption he's making.

I did send an email to Ice Crystal Engineering, Inc. to see if I could find anything out about the composition of typical cloud seeding flares, but I didn't get a response.
 

Belfrey

Senior Member
No one accepts the producer's challenge for debate!
Dave, what would be the point of debating someone who makes up "facts" from thin air? For example, this:

Dave said:
And check for yourself what's in the flares: aluminum, strontium, magnesium, sulfur... NO KIDDING.
What's your evidence for this claim?
 

Jay Reynolds

Senior Member
The MSDS sheet Dave needed to find took me about ten seconds. Search terms glaciogenic and MSDS:
http://www.countyofsb.org/uploadedFiles/pwd/Water/ICE MSDS.DOC

 

Jay Reynolds

Senior Member
NEQ is (Net Explosive Quantity) so the net weight of ingredients minus casing, etc, is 150 grams, so about 1/3 pound per flare.

COMPOSITION / INFORMATION ON INGREDIENTS
The pyrotechnic composition consists of (~70%) Ammonium Perchlorate, Zinc powder
(non pyrophoric), Aluminium powder (non pyrophoric), and an organic binder. The
remainder (~30%) consists of Silver Iodide, Copper Iodide, and Ammonium Iodide.

pyrophoric definition: Liable to ignite spontaneously.

flare MSDS said:
The pyrotechnic composition consists of (~70%) Ammonium Perchlorate, Zinc powder (non pyrophoric), Aluminium powder (non pyrophoric), and an organic binder.
Ammonium Perchlorate NH4​ClO4​ + zinc powder (Zn) + aluminum powder(Al)+ binder @70% x 150 grams = 105 grams

The above mixture is very close to a standard model rocket propellant mixture called ACPC, Ammonium perchlorate composite propellant.

Looking at the section on composition, I see that the ammonium perchlorate serves as oxidizer, which means that it has a reaction with oxygen, while the aluminum and zinc powders serve as fuels. While aluminum is used as a high performance fuel, I note that the zinc powder does the opposite, it is a low performance fuel. Probably the ratio of those two fuels in this case provides a reasonable rate of burning for flare use compared to rocket motor use. The organic binder is a mixture of polymers which gives the fuel a plastic or rubbery texture.

flare MSDS said:
The remainder (~30%) consists of Silver Iodide, Copper Iodide, and Ammonium Iodide.
silver iodide AgI + copper iodide CuI + ammonium iodide NH4​I @ 30% x 150 grams = 45 grams or .099lbs (1/100th of 1 pound)

So, no barium, strontium, magnesium or sulfur, as Dave Dahl claims.

The Weather Modification Association has published this statement:
Position Statement on the Environmental Impact of Using Silver Iodide as a Cloud Seeding Agent

Weather modification.org said:
In 1978 cloud seeding activities were the source of about three metric tons of silver (as silver iodide) released into the environment, or about 0.1 per cent of the total (Eisler 1996). About the same amount of silver iodide is being used annually for cloud seeding activities in the U.S. and Canada today.

Only small quantities of seeding material are released from individual cloud seeding generators typically in the range of 5-25 grams of silver iodide per hour from ground generators and up to a few kilograms per hour from aircraft depending on the size of the target area.
 

Gunguy45

Active Member
But Jay...MSDS info comes from Government oversight...we know we can't trust the Government....they are the instigators of the whole program.

Tongue firmly in cheek when I typed that...just so ya know.
 

Jay Reynolds

Senior Member
But Jay...MSDS info comes from Government oversight...we know we can't trust the Government....they are the instigators of the whole program.

Tongue firmly in cheek when I typed that...just so ya know.
If Dave Dahl wants to take that position, he can buy a flare and prove the MSDS wrong.
Of course, he should have done that before he started speculating on no basis.
 

solrey

Senior Member
Let the infighting begin!

The Shasta Groupies MJM&Co. and Jim Lee see competition and are already tearing Dave Dahl a new one accusing him of being a "slick PR disinfo artist":

http://www.oilfreefun.com/2012/09/ch...activists.html

Now you know, Dave. They eat their young.
Indeed.

In dutchsinse's latest interview commercial for a bunker manufacturer, he urges everyone to stop calling them chemtrails and refer to them in the "proper terminology" which is cloud seeding according to him. He goes on to explain that one of the substances they use is silver iodide.

Around the 7:00 min mark here:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TlA3lSbKIjA&feature=player_detailpage#t=424s

The article Jay posted states:

When he's not working with the sworn enemies of a free mankind, Dave Dahl also manages his high end tea import company and apparently finds time to independently research and produce HD documentary films claiming ALL chemtrails are the result of Silver Iodide spraying. Can you smell a PR rat like I can? Are you spotting a potential conflict of interest yet?!
Dutch made this comment to me, but deleted it as is his habit.

cloud seeding is chemtrails.. you deny chemtrails.. you deny cloud seeding.

page upon page of you denying chemtrails.. search timsolrey chemtrails on google.

Its hilarious . You've modified you're terminology more than they've modified the weather :)
Any comment on my part would pale in comparison to the irony of it all.

cheers
 

Jay Reynolds

Senior Member
In another thread, Ross Marsden examined this claim by G. Edward Griffin which is similar to Dave Dahl's:
Realityzone4-5-13.jpg

Similar in respect to the claim that it is not the actual trail seen emanating from the jet which contains an unknown substance, but rather a substance already present which is causing otherwise ordinary water vapor contrails to persist and/or spread more than normal amounts.

Different in respect that Griffin mentions a "transparent gas" as the substance while Dahl asserts that silver iodode, a solid, is the substance.

As for gases, the problem with that claim is that gases do not remain discrete particles available for action as a solid such as silver iodide would. Gases diffuse (spread out) continuously into whatever volume is available for them to do so. This is why, for example, you can open a bottle of perfume and eventually the vapor will be detectable across the room. Here is a graphical representation:
diffusion.JPG

In the open atmosphere, diffusion of a gas would proceed through the entire volume available. The entire volume of earth's atmosphere. In order for the hypothesis of a gas, an "invisible chemtrail" being the ingredient catalyzing contrails o be persistent, a sufficient level of such a gas would have to:
- be reached throughout the ENTIRE atmosphere of the earth
- be maintained in sufficient concentration throughout the ENTIRE atmosphere of the earth
- remain active and not degrade in quality throughout the ENTIRE atmosphere of the earth

At least one other problem remains with the hypothesis. What is observed are that the trails seen display spatial and temporal variances. Sometimes the exact same trail is seen to behave differently from time to time or place to place.

If a gas were involved which has to meet the three criteria above, according to what we know about diffusion, there would be no variance since the gas would eventually diffuse everywhere in the atmosphere.

What are the weaknesses in my analysis?
 
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Dave Dahl

New Member
-> Belfrey and Mick:

You guys are reaching for some good points but you're misinterpreting (or I'm poor at explaining some things) and no one has yet disproved any of the basic facts:

- Cloud seeding is done in nearly every western state in the US (and globally)
- It's done to enhance precipitation because we need more water
- Cloud seeding ("weather modification") uses silver iodide-- salt-based chemicals
- The chemical flares are burned at around 20k feet (and then mix with the atmosphere like CO2 does)
- These chemicals are DESIGNED to make clouds thicker and more persistent
- Jets produce a gallon of water for every gallon of fuel burned-- about ten trillion cubic feet per year
- Frozen water vapor from large jets mixes with the cloud seeding material
- Jet contrails start at around 20k feet (depending on your location and conditions) and end at higher altitudes
- Soil salinity throughout the US is higher than expected (no acid rain; rain is high-pH!)
- Creating artificial clouds affects temperatures, pressures, evaporation

Guys, cloud seeding material ("mineral dust and metallic aerosols") are found much higher than 20k feet and are the basis (nuclei) of high clouds.

In fact, we have been seeding clouds to create more water for over half a century and cloud seeding chemicals are a constant part of our upper and lower atmosphere.

BELFREY: Bombarier jets are commonly used for cloud seeding above 20k feet, and since this is aerosol mist it rises if the air is rising. Planes cannot avoid flying thru the fields of dense CCNs as the ascend to cruising altitude.

MICK: Commercial jets aren't spraying the silver iodide (as far as I know), nor did I say that. Commercial jets deliver the water (exhaust vapor) that mixes with fields of condensation nuclei sprayed by small cloud seeding planes, which produce very little exhaust steam compared to a large jet ascending. I have no interest in the conspiracy theories surrounding "chemtrails"-- this is clearly a meteorological phenomenon due to moisture mixing with CCNs in a frozen environment.


My goal is simply to create an awareness that the practice of weather modification (cloud seeding) exists and is prolific, and to distinguish it from SRM and weather warfare, which are very different but often confused with weather mod.

Do you guys care, or do you only win when you prove there is nothing you don't already know?

In the past year I've spoken with some award-winning scientists who A) were very surprised to hear the facts about cloud seeding (especially that we do it before every possible storm to get more water), B) agreed that cloud-seeding chemicals would cause jet exhaust to "stick" and form clouds and C) had questions rather than retorts... because they're scientists.

I appreciate your interest in this subject and am happy to answer any genuine questions you might have.

I also still invite a real-time discussion for efficiency.
 

TWCobra

Senior Member
Jet contrails start at around 20k feet (depending on your location and conditions) and end at higher altitudes
Incorrect. Contrails require a temperature of below -40 degrees to form. That temperature generally does not exist at 20,000 feet. (there are exceptions in very cold climates). Contrails are observed at high altitudes. The SR71, which could cruise above 80,000 feet, would sometimes generate them. So did the Concorde which flew above 55,000 feet.

Frozen water vapor from large jets mixes with the cloud seeding material
There is no such thing as "frozen water vapor". When the conditions are right, water vapor condenses to become liquid water and if the temperature is low enough, freezes to become ice crystals.

The chemical flares are burned at around 20k feet (and then mix with the atmosphere like CO2 does)
Cloud seeding takes place BELOW the freezing level. 20,000 feet is generally above the freezing level. The flares are burned at any altitude, providing it is below the freezing level.
 

MikeC

Closed Account
-> Belfrey and Mick:

You guys are reaching for some good points but you're misinterpreting (or I'm poor at explaining some things) and no one has yet disproved any of the basic facts:

- Cloud seeding is done in nearly every western state in the US (and globally)
- It's done to enhance precipitation because we need more water
- Cloud seeding ("weather modification") uses silver iodide-- salt-based chemicals
All these are true - no problem

- The chemical flares are burned at around 20k feet (and then mix with the atmosphere like CO2 does)
Neither of these 2 claims are true - cloud seeding is usually done UNDERNEATH clouds so at much lower altitudes than 20k feet. It is also normally done by unpressurised piston engined a/c that cannot operate much above 13,000 feet.

Also burning silver iodide flares creates PARTICLES - dust - not gas like CO2 - so no they do not mix with the atmosphere like CA2 does at all.
Instead they become the nucleus on which water or ice can condense out of the atmosphere. This is, again, nothing like mechanisms that CO2 "uses" on he atmosphere.

All this stuff is basic fact that can be ascertained by the most cursory research - start with the wiki article - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cloud_seeding


- These chemicals are DESIGNED to make clouds thicker and more persistent
No - they are DESIGNED to get water and ice to precipitate out of hte atmosphere and fall was rain or snow or hail.


- Jets produce a gallon of water for every gallon of fuel burned-- about ten trillion cubic feet per year
it is about 1.24 gallons per gallon of jet fuel - bu close enough


- Frozen water vapor from large jets mixes with the cloud seeding material[/quoe]

Unlikely, since they a being generated tens of thousands of feet apart.

- Jet contrails start at around 20k feet (depending on your location and conditions) and end at higher altitudes
Jet contrails start wherever the temperature is low enough and hmidity high enough - there are videos of them at ground level in Siberia and hte South Pole.

- Soil salinity throughout the US is higher than expected (no acid rain; rain is high-pH!)
Several
statements in here given without any sources Higher than what? Expected by whom? What has acid rain got to do with it??


- Creating artificial clouds affects temperatures, pressures, evaporation
Only in exactly the same way that natural clouds do...whatever hat may be.
 

Jay Reynolds

Senior Member
(I still invite a real debate with anyone who believes they are knowledgeable enough to stand up to my questions.)
OK, Dave. I'll debate you. In what format and on what subject would you enjoy debating?

Maybe we could start by debating this point?

- Jets produce a gallon of water for every gallon of fuel burned-- about ten trillion cubic feet per year
You have the affirmative, Dave. Prove your point by showing us your math.

Just "asking questions", like scientists do, right?
 

Belfrey

Senior Member
-> Belfrey and Mick:

You guys are reaching for some good points but you're misinterpreting (or I'm poor at explaining some things) and no one has yet disproved any of the basic facts:
I would note that your "basic facts" have changed a bit along the way, perhaps because you revised them after some of our previous discussions - which not a bad thing.

Dave Dahl said:
- Cloud seeding is done in nearly every western state in the US (and globally)
Well, 11 western states, currently. Not quite "nearly every."
Dave Dahl said:
- It's done to enhance precipitation because we need more water
- Cloud seeding ("weather modification") uses silver iodide-- salt-based chemicals
Agreed.
Dave Dahl said:
- The chemical flares are burned at around 20k feet (and then mix with the atmosphere like CO2 does)
According to the weather modification experts I communicated with, as quoted earlier in this thread, it would rarely be that high.
[Most of the other points were addressed by others.]

Dave Dahl said:
Guys, cloud seeding material ("mineral dust and metallic aerosols") are found much higher than 20k feet and are the basis (nuclei) of high clouds.
If by "cloud seeding materials" you mean "ice nuclei," then you're right. There are always a lot up there. But what proportion of them are from cloud seeding activities, as opposed to other natural and anthropogenic sources?

There have been multiple recent research projects which looked at the composition of ice nuclei in the upper troposphere. They have found, as you said, that "mineral dust and metallic aerosols" are abundant and important ice nuclei (IN) involved in the formation of upper-level clouds. But they have not found that these IN are dominated in any way by silver iodide.

See for example, Cziczo, D. J., K. D. Froyd, C. Hoose, E. J. Jensen, M. Diao, M.A. Zondlo, J. B. Smith, C. H. Twohy, and D. M. Murphy. “Clarifying the Dominant Sources and Mechanisms of Cirrus Cloud Formation.” Science 340, no. 6138 (June 14, 2013): 1320–1324.

So, although it's plausible that some cloud seeding particles could get blown up to cirrus altitudes, given that these other ice nuclei from other sources are already very abundant in the upper troposphere, why should we care?

Dave Dahl said:
BELFREY: Bombarier jets are commonly used for cloud seeding above 20k feet
Source for this claim?

Dave Dahl said:
My goal is simply to create an awareness that the practice of weather modification (cloud seeding) exists and is prolific, and to distinguish it from SRM and weather warfare, which are very different but often confused with weather mod.
I think most of us would pretty much agree with that.
Is that really your goal? I thought you were trying to say it had something to do with contrail formation and persistence?
 
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JFDee

Senior Member
- It's done [cloudseeding] to enhance precipitation because we need more water
Don't forget hail prevention. In Germany, water shortage is generally no problem, but thunderstorms over crop are, so several regions in the South are maintaining 'hail flyers'.

However, the actual effectiveness of hailbusting is disputed.
 

Dave Dahl

New Member
Incorrect. Contrails require a temperature of below -40 degrees to form. That temperature generally does not exist at 20,000 feet. (there are exceptions in very cold climates). Contrails are observed at high altitudes. The SR71, which could cruise above 80,000 feet, would sometimes generate them. So did the Concorde which flew above 55,000 feet.
There are always exceptions. Contrails can SOMETIMES be very high or low-- but not usually. Contrails usually disappear once the plane reaches cruising altitude. This changes nothing related to artificial clouds that can cover the entire sky as far as you can see.
(HAVE YOU SEEN THIS HAPPEN?)


There is no such thing as "frozen water vapor". When the conditions are right, water vapor condenses to become liquid water and if the temperature is low enough, freezes to become ice crystals.
FROZEN WATER VAPOR = ice crystals



Cloud seeding takes place BELOW the freezing level. 20,000 feet is generally above the freezing level. The flares are burned at any altitude, providing it is below the freezing level.
Not so. Different kinds of cloud seeding-- most often in the western US @ 16-22,000 ft according to experts I have spoken to.


Picking nits... doesn't change anything. Cloud seeding causes thickening of clouds-- including clouds from jets.
 
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scombrid

Senior Member
Cloud seeding causes water in the cloud to condense into heavy enough droplets that the water precipitates out of the cloud.

Contrails do not usually disappear when a plane reaches cruising altitude.

Contrails only form below 30k feet at high latitudes. I can safely say that ice contrails never occur below 30k feet here in Florida or even where I used to live in Virginia. It is simply incorrect to state that contrails start at 20k feet and end at higher altitudes.

In the past year I've spoken with some award-winning scientists who A) were very surprised to hear the facts about cloud seeding (especially that we do it before every possible storm to get more water),
I bet they were surprised to hear that cloud seeding occurs before every possible storm. I know I am. I'd like to see the documentation of this program.
 

scombrid

Senior Member
Aircraft cannot avoid flying right through the silver iodide mist as they accelerate up to their cruising altitude.
What is the residence time of the silver iodide?

We get a lot of heavy contrails and contrail cirrus in Florida, sometimes blanketing the sky when mixed with natural cirrostratus, especially in a winter when the subtropical jet stream is active. Those trails are always embedded in the jet stream above 30k feet. That is cruising altitude. The air in which the contrails air forming was probably over the Gulf of Mexico an hour before it was here on the beach side of the east coast and a few hours after that it will be headed for Bermuda.

I've sat in a boat in Welaka Florida bored out of my mind doing tedious work with long waits between activity. Gave me a lot of time to sky watch. Traffic northbound out of Orlando hits 20-23k feet at Welaka. No contrails, ever from those climbing planes. Hole punch and fall streak clouds were observed in alto-cumulus layers. All contrails at Welaka were Miami-FtL traffic that was already at cruise.


Where there are thick, persistent contrails, there is weather modification nearby. Check for yourself.
Where is the weather modification that is causing thick persistent contrails in a 100kt jet stream at 33 feet over Florida (or anywhere else in the southeastern US)?
 

NoParty

Senior Member
My goal is simply to create an awareness that the practice of weather modification (cloud seeding) exists and is prolific, and to distinguish it from SRM and weather warfare, which are very different but often confused with weather mod.

Do you guys care, or do you only win when you prove there is nothing you don't already know?

In the past year I've spoken with some award-winning scientists who A) were very surprised to hear the facts about cloud seeding (especially that we do it before every possible storm to get more water), B) agreed that cloud-seeding chemicals would cause jet exhaust to "stick" and form clouds and C) had questions rather than retorts... because they're scientists.
First Dave, type "cloud seeding" into the search box above, and you'll see that the topic has already
been discussed at length here, long ago...there's zero need to "...create an awareness..." on this site.

Second, I for one, can't really engage you on "SRM" and/or "weather warfare" until you offer
real evidence that they exist.

Third, who are these "award-winning scientists" (there can't be any reason to hide their identities)
who were ignorant of basic cloud seeding?

Lastly, who told you, re. cloud seeding: "we do it before every possible storm"?
That would be surprising new info to me, so I welcome whatever source :D you have to support that.
Thanks! :)
 

Belfrey

Senior Member
There are always exceptions. Contrails can SOMETIMES be very high or low-- but not usually. Contrails usually disappear once the plane reaches cruising altitude.
Where did you get that idea? Contrails frequently persist at cruising altitude.
 

Keith Beachy

Senior Member
... Contrails usually disappear once the plane reaches cruising altitude. ...
Not true. The SR-71 would stop conning when it reached cruising altitude, but contrails can persist when weather conditions are right. The seeding nonsense related to contrails is ... nonsense.

Not true, is the correct answer...

Cruising altitude, contrails - it depends on the weather
 

sharpnfuzzy

Active Member
The SR-71 would stop conning when it reached cruising altitude, but contrails can persist when weather conditions are right.
The SR-71 could contrail even at 80,000 feet. It was equipped with a periscope that the pilots used to check if they were producing contrails at cruise altitude.

 

Keith Beachy

Senior Member
The SR-71 could contrail even at 80,000 feet. It was equipped with a periscope that the pilots used to check if they were producing contrails at cruise altitude.

yes, it depends on conditions; the times I watch him climb and accelerate away from us after refueling, there were no contrails at 27,000 feet. As he climbed up he started contrails, then they stopped; but you are right, he could have contrails anywhere.
"The SR-71 would stop conning when it reached cruising altitude", is not correct, he sometimes stopped, or better, he would have contrails when conditions for contrail exist.
 

Svartbjørn

Senior Member
FROZEN WATER VAPOR = ice crystals
There's not a lot in this discussion that I can comment on, but on this particular subject I can, and you're mistaken. Vapors, by definition, are colorless and invisible.. (IE steam) if you can see it, then its already started to condense. So as Cobra said, There's no such thing as frozen water vapor because by the time its frozen, its already condensed and no longer a vapor, its an aerosol.

Vapor:
Aerosol:
I know it seems to be a nit pick, but when getting into the details of what contrails are, how they're formed and where they come from, its important that everyone is speaking the same language and using the same reference points so that there's no misunderstanding or breakdown in communication. You guys are having a great discussion and I dont want to see it fall apart because of vocabulary issues.
 

Efftup

Senior Member
I live in Bristol (the Original and best one) and the skies are often criss crossed with contrails. If you check out on FR24, you will see that LOADS of these planes are definitely at cruise height as they are travelling between North america and countries of mainland Europe. Ones coming from Heathrow going overseas tend to be just reaching cruising altitude.
 

Trailblazer

Moderator
Staff member
- These chemicals are DESIGNED to make clouds thicker and more persistent
No they are not. They are designed to make water precipitate out of the clouds and fall as rain. This will reduce the amount of water present in the cloud and would therefore tend to make the cloud smaller.

This is why cloud seeding has been used to attempt to "clear the air" for parades etc in China. You seed the clouds upwind of the location you want to clear, and the clouds then dump their rain upwind and have dissipated to some degree by the time they reach your location.
 

Ross Marsden

Senior Member
In the past year I've spoken with some award-winning scientists who A) were very surprised to hear the facts about cloud seeding (especially that we do it before every possible storm to get more water), B) agreed that cloud-seeding chemicals would cause jet exhaust to "stick" and form clouds and C) had questions rather than retorts... because they're scientists.
As NoParty asked in #106 above, can you name these scientists (and the wards they won) so that we can check them out. What was the nature of your discussions with them: email, telephone, in person?
 

Storm8756

New Member
I'm surprised there is still a debate after China and the Olympics. China very clearly stated that they were going to manipulate the weather in order to stop it from raining on the Olympics, which they did by cloud seeding and cutting the clouds before reaching Bejing. Now they have plans to cloud seed in hopes of clearing smog. The United States cloud seeds regularly especially over Northern California and Colorado. As a farmer with a new toy of a GPS driven tractor I am able to watch the skies a lot more, I'm able to watch planes fly by and leave jet streams that are supposed to dissipate. I'm able to watch those jet streams expand and turn into clouds that join the weather system and go to the east over the mountains, here we have a drought, East they're getting snow dumped on them. "Climate Change"
 
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