Debunked: ArtificialClouds.com claims silver iodide causes chemtrails/global warming!

Mick West

Administrator
Staff member
The following new web site and video makes the claim that the increased incidence of contrails and global climate change are both caused by silver iodide cloud seeding in the stratosphere.

While the science discussed in the film is mostly nonsense (cloud seeding does not take place in the stratosphere, and excess silver iodide would precipitate out in ice supersaturated conditions, so would not contribute to contrail formation, and basically zero water is added to the atmosphere by jets compared to what is already there), it's a well made film, and is likely to enter the pantheon of chemtrail mythology.

http://artificialclouds.com/

 

TWCobra

Senior Member.
A scientific gem.....


Can you quantify that?
Yes, but not precisely. I don't have worldwide figures on jet fuel consumption, but in America we use about 30 billions gallons annually, which produces around 30 billion gallons of water in the atmosphere. But that water is in the form of vapor, and a gallon of water equals over a thousand gallons of water vapor. So in the United States alone, I'd say we add trillions of gallons of water vapor into the air. Literally. Every year.



 

Miss VocalCord

Senior Member.
At least they say the "grid patterns" are caused by normal civil aviation. Luckily they have this open debate platform also on their website... ;-)
 
D

Dave

Guest
1. Nothing is sprayed globally like silver iodide... all over the US and all over the world, ABOVE commercial air traffic. (Yeah, we always thought cloud seeding is localized and at lower altitudes... nope.)

2. Silver iodide is CLOUD-MAKING material

3. Changes in cloud cover changes the climate.


If we did not spray silver iodide above the air traffic (since the 60s) we would not see the chemtrails. They still fly when we don't see them, but there is no hygroscopic mist for them to "stick" to.

See the documentation that goes with the movie and you'll find that every sentence is supported by a science paper or a government doc.

...if we don't see the truth, how can we fix it?

Chemical spraying in the stratosphere MUST STOP.
 

Mick West

Administrator
Staff member
Dave, what would happen if you sprayed silver iodide in ice supersaturated air?

How would this differ from jet exhaust?
 

Jay Reynolds

Senior Member.
Some background. Dave Dahl has been seling his book, "Contrails, Chemtrails, and Artificial Clouds" since 2007:
http://www.bookreview.com/$spindb.query.listreview2.booknew.16929

There are some early archives of his website from 2007 which might shed some light on where he has been on the subject:
http://wayback.archive.org/web/20070101000000*/http:////artificialclouds.com

Has he changed his story, if so, how, when, and why?
I can't access the Wayback link above, but it should tell us some answers.

So we have an old bunk purveyor, again with an incentive to not change due to some profit and who has had at least five years to get up to speed, yet he still
hasn't figured out that contrails do not form from water in the jet fuel?

To quote Francis Mangels, "C'mon folks, something's really wrong here!......"

There are good points about having more than one person issuing bunk and calling it the "Truth". Maybe competition is good, but we'll have to see if, once confronted with the errors in his spiel, if he is really interested in facts, or just wants some of the limelight or merely renewed sales.
 

Mick West

Administrator
Staff member
Dave, can you back up your claim that cloud seeding is commonly performed above commercial air traffic? (by which I assume you mean at least 30,000 feet).
 

Spongebob

Active Member
I can`t see why these people still attempt to sell bunk on this forum?

With Jay on the case they are going to be exposed/debunked/defrocked without any doubt.

I imagine Jays brain must be a database of chemtrail bunk spreaders?! I`m just glad he`s on "our" side... ;)
 

Nessa Celery

New Member
I can`t see why these people still attempt to sell bunk on this forum?

With Jay on the case they are going to be exposed/debunked/defrocked without any doubt.
It'll still sell. Do you think any of the stuff debunked on this forum or anywhere else has stopped selling? There are just too many people who want to believe. Those who dismiss "chemtrails" are considered ignorant, those who actually debunk considered shills. *shrug*
 
D

Dr. K

Guest
[Admin note: this post appears to have been posted by Dave Dahl, posing as someone else]

This sounds right. Wow. I'm a little pissed that I didn't get it sooner since I have been watching and reading about chemtrails for over 10 years. But I am sure Dave spent many hours and apparently has worked with or talked with the folks most knowledgeable. I'm still going through the documentation. Frickin amazing. Humans are _insane_. But I am glad to know exactly how it happens. Now I want to see what my lawyer friends say!!!!!!


1. Nothing is sprayed globally like silver iodide... all over the US and all over the world, ABOVE commercial air traffic. (Yeah, we always thought cloud seeding is localized and at lower altitudes... nope.)

2. Silver iodide is CLOUD-MAKING material

3. Changes in cloud cover changes the climate.


If we did not spray silver iodide above the air traffic (since the 60s) we would not see the chemtrails. They still fly when we don't see them, but there is no hygroscopic mist for them to "stick" to.

See the documentation that goes with the movie and you'll find that every sentence is supported by a science paper or a government doc.

...if we don't see the truth, how can we fix it?

Chemical spraying in the stratosphere MUST STOP.
 
S

Stephen

Guest
[Admin note: this post appears to have been posted by Dave Dahl, posing as someone else]

Incredible, and it seems all factual. Two things he got wrong though:

A. In the statement about steam, he should quantify in terms of volume or mass, and we do not usually refer to volume in gallons (although it is a volume measurement). In the movie he describes it correctly, in terms of cubic feet. What I hand not considered previously was the pressure. In the stratosphere pressure is below 10 millibars while down on the ground it is about 1000 millibars. Thus the volume of steam from one gallon of water is awesome. And the temperature is usually under -50 up there, so it's frozen steam. B. He wrong about us blaming ourselves for this. We will never take responsibility. Oh one more thing. I think a gallon of fuel produces more like 1.4 gallons of H2O.

A scientific gem.....


 

Trigger Hippie

Senior Member.
cloudseeding.jpg

NO!

Cloud seeding is the attempt to create PRECIPITATION. Cloud seeding is done by releasing chemicals, like silver iodide, into ALREADY EXISTING CLOUDS. This can't be stressed enough, cloud seeding does not create clouds.

The term is unfortunate because it causes so much confusion when interpreted in the strictest sense. It makes it sound like cloud seeding (spraying silver iodide) will create clouds out of a clear blue sky. There really is no excuse for the creators of this "science documentary" to make such a fundamental mistake.
 

Jay Reynolds

Senior Member.
1. Nothing is sprayed globally like silver iodide... all over the US and all over the world, ABOVE commercial air traffic. (Yeah, we always thought cloud seeding is localized and at lower altitudes... nope.)
Dave, I second the challenge to support this claim.

If you cannot do this simple thing, which underpins your whole premise, why are you saying it?


Dave said:
If we did not spray silver iodide above the air traffic (since the 60s) we would not see the chemtrails. They still fly when we don't see them, but there is no hygroscopic mist for them to "stick" to.
Dave, how do you explain the long lasting contails seen during World War II?
Was the whole world covered with silver iodide back then?
If not, your premise falls yet again.


Dave said:
See the documentation that goes with the movie and you'll find that every sentence is supported by a science paper or a government doc.
Dave, Your website has no documentation.
It does have this little bit of bunk which I wrote to you about:

artificialclouds.com said:
12. Why are jet contrails visible?

A) Enough CO2 exaust in a small stream is visible
B) Enough burned particles coagulate to become visible
C) Tracer material in the fuel creates white smoke
D) Moisture in the fuel becomes reflective ice particles
E) Barium, aluminum or sulfur dioxide is added to the fuel
answer: "D"
Dave, I wrote you and explained why you are wrong.
Will you at least admit this, and change it?
The problem with not being responsive when you are clearly shown that you are spreading misinformation is that sooner or later someone will repeat it and get themselves laughed out of town. They will then understand that you aren't credible, and will ask you why you "set the up" so cruelly.

Michael J. Murphy, G. Edward Griffin, Francis Mangels, Dane Wigington, Rosalind Peterson and so amny others have been doing just that for many years. I think you might be better than them, so come on back and face up to the facts. Replace misinformation with real factual information. Be the Bigger Man.


Dave said:
Chemical spraying in the stratosphere MUST STOP.
Um, didn't we challenge you to show us the evidence for that?
 

Spongebob

Active Member
It'll still sell. Do you think any of the stuff debunked on this forum or anywhere else has stopped selling? There are just too many people who want to believe. Those who dismiss "chemtrails" are considered ignorant, those who actually debunk considered shills. *shrug*

Do you think any of the stuff debunked on this forum or anywhere else has stopped selling?
No. Shocking to see on YouTube - the staggering level of ignorant belief is mind boggling and quite sad.

All I asking is - why do these same people imagine that they will get away with the same ignorant bunk posting here on this forum?

Could be because they arrive here "new" and don`t bother to read through some of the threads?
Or don`t care to?
Or choose to remain ignorant as this will enable them to continue their belief/religion?



edit: waiting for "Dave" to answer Jay is like waiting for the next episode of Dallas...;)
 

Gunguy45

Senior Member.
Cloud seeding is the attempt to create PRECIPITATION. Cloud seeding is done by releasing chemicals, like silver iodide, into ALREADY EXISTING CLOUDS. This can't be stressed enough, cloud seeding does not create clouds.
That what I was wondering TH. Wouldn't they have called it cloud "creating" way back in the day when it started, if that's what they meant? You seed clouds to hopefully produce rain...just like you seed your fields to produce a crop? No farmer I've ever known in 50+ years ever said they were going to seed their crop. Plant their crop, plant their fields...maybe...but never seed their crop.
 

Mick West

Administrator
Staff member
Dave does not seem to intend to be entirely honest here, as he just posed as other people and replied to his own posts. I've indicated the two posts, above.
 

Jay Reynolds

Senior Member.
[Admin note: this post appears to have been posted by Dave Dahl, posing as someone else]

Incredible, and it seems all factual. Two things he got wrong though:

A. In the statement about steam, he should quantify in terms of volume or mass, and we do not usually refer to volume in gallons (although it is a volume measurement). In the movie he describes it correctly, in terms of cubic feet. What I hand not considered previously was the pressure. In the stratosphere pressure is below 10 millibars while down on the ground it is about 1000 millibars. Thus the volume of steam from one gallon of water is awesome. And the temperature is usually under -50 up there, so it's frozen steam. B. He wrong about us blaming ourselves for this. We will never take responsibility. Oh one more thing. I think a gallon of fuel produces more like 1.4 gallons of H2O.
Dave, actually the more the water vapor expands, the farther apart the molecules will be. The farther apart they are, the less visible the ice crystals would be.

But that's not the end of the story.
The stratosphere is very dry, and the ice crystals would therefore be even more likely to go back to vapor as the ice crystals then would quickly sublimate and no persistent contrail would be seen.

But we're still not at the end of the story.
You speak of the pressure in the stratosphere as being 10 millibars.
The 50 millibar level of the atmosphere is about 65-70,000 feet altitude.
The 10 millibar level is about 100,000 feet altitude.

Dave, what sort of planes do you say are flying at these altitudes?
 

Belfrey

Senior Member.
See the documentation that goes with the movie and you'll find that every sentence is supported by a science paper or a government doc.
Dave, I've been looking at your transcript and documentation page - thanks for including that, by the way.

There are citations offered for many statements, although not all of the sources referenced actually support the claims you make. But there are no citations offered for some of your more unusual claims. Can you give a single credible source for the claim that silver iodide is used to create clouds, rather than to induce precipitation in existing clouds?
 

Danny55

Senior Member.
Just looked at the website. It states that silver iodide is sprayed "globally" to induce rainfall.

Why would they waste it over Scotland. We have enough rain here without try to make more. In fact, we get so much rain here, that we are thinking of exporting some to our southern neighbours, England (at a price of course), who have regular hosepipe bans and partial droughts.
In fact, if they were spraying over the UK, wouldn't that mean that England would receive as much rain as Scotland and we Scots would lose a chance to make a few quid at the expense of our neighbours?
Just for info, UK is quite small, being 600 miles N-S, and less than 300 miles wide at it's widest, (60 miles at it's narrowest).
 
D

Dave (producer)

Guest
I DID change the story. But it's not my story. It's the documentation of what we humans have done:

1. Silver iodide is sprayed constantly around the world... every place that needs more water, which is most major cities
(That's what I didn't know, and why my research changed direction... got to follow the facts.)

2. The water is from the combustion of hydrocarbons. (Jet fuel only has about 15ppm water, but the fuel produces over a gallon of water for each gallon of fuel burned.)

3. By spraying silver iodide into our thin atmosphere around the globe (to make rain) we are making clouds around the Earth. And clouds affect the climate MORE THAN GREENHOUSE GASES, according to NASA.

Now, which facts are wrong-- We don't spray silver iodide? Or that doesn't make clouds? Or that doesn't affect the climate?


BTW, silver iodide flares also contain strontium and aluminum. Imagine how many silver iodide flares with these toxic pyrotechnics are burned around the planet. MILLIONS.

Anyone got a better explanation? I haven't heard any that makes sense.

(Anyone read through the documentation posted at artificial clouds dotcom? --I didn't think so. )



Some background. Dave Dahl has been seling his book, "Contrails, Chemtrails, and Artificial Clouds" since 2007:
http://www.bookreview.com/$spindb.query.listreview2.booknew.16929

There are some early archives of his website from 2007 which might shed some light on where he has been on the subject:
http://wayback.archive.org/web/20070101000000*/http:////artificialclouds.com

Has he changed his story, if so, how, when, and why?
I can't access the Wayback link above, but it should tell us some answers.

So we have an old bunk purveyor, again with an incentive to not change due to some profit and who has had at least five years to get up to speed, yet he still
hasn't figured out that contrails do not form from water in the jet fuel?

To quote Francis Mangels, "C'mon folks, something's really wrong here!......"

There are good points about having more than one person issuing bunk and calling it the "Truth". Maybe competition is good, but we'll have to see if, once confronted with the errors in his spiel, if he is really interested in facts, or just wants some of the limelight or merely renewed sales.
 
U

Unregistered

Guest
[sigh]

Yes. All you have to do is call a weather modification company. I've spent hours on the phone with some of them and they all say the same thing-- which is the same thing written in the science papers and in the proposals to your county that pays for cloud seeding. Typically 25,000 to 40,000 feet. Sometimes even higher. "As many flares as possible."

The whole idea is to get the silver iodide ABOVE the moisture.

Before calling this presentation "bunk," I'd suggest actually checking the facts-- it's easy enough and plenty of documentation is provided.

BTW, if it's bunk, what's my motivation? To sell my book? Dudes, this is the worst way to make money I can think of. Everything I have done professionally has made me money EXCEPT this time-consuming project, which has cost me far more than the book ever made. (The book is not for sale now since it's dated and incomplete, but was published to send to the US Senators and Congress to make them aware of the impact of aircraft.)

Dave out.


Dave, can you back up your claim that cloud seeding is commonly performed above commercial air traffic? (by which I assume you mean at least 30,000 feet).
 
D

Dave

Guest
OK: here's my last reply to this thread.

Jet fuel combustion (hydrocarbons) creates water... over a gallon of water per gallon of fuel.

A gallon of fuel creates roughly 500 cubic feet of steam at sea level (~1000 millibars).

At stratospheric pressures (~10 millibars) that steam becomes about 50,000 cubic feet... in minus 50 or 60 degrees F.

If we're using 30 billion gallons of jet fuel, how much frozen steam is that in the stratosphere?



...any scientists on this forum? I've discussed this with a number of chemists and physicists.


A scientific gem.....






 

Mick West

Administrator
Staff member
OK: here's my last reply to this thread.

Jet fuel combustion (hydrocarbons) creates water... over a gallon of water per gallon of fuel.

A gallon of fuel creates roughly 500 cubic feet of steam at sea level (~1000 millibars).

At stratospheric pressures (~10 millibars) that steam becomes about 50,000 cubic feet... in minus 50 or 60 degrees F.

If we're using 30 billion gallons of jet fuel, how much frozen steam is that in the stratosphere?



...any scientists on this forum? I've discussed this with a number of chemists and physicists.

There's the equivalent of 12,900 cubic kilometers of water in the atmosphere, mostly as vapor. The important measure though is the MASS of water, not the volume.

That's about 14,000 billion tons of water in the atmosphere - and it's in constant turnover, billions of tons rain out every day, billions of tons evaporate every day. The water added by jets changes the amount of water by very little.
 

Mick West

Administrator
Staff member
You are dodging a key question here though - what would happen if you sprayed silver iodide in ice-supersaturated air?
 

FreiZeitGeist

Senior Member.
Germany is one of the 50 countries using silver-iodite. I´m proud that our smal country is part of this global conspiracy ;-D

... but in Germany,Austria and Swiss (and most Europe) silver-iodite is not used in the manner as it is used in California. We do not seed clouds just to get some rain. We use it to prevent Thunderclouds from strong hailing. So the pilots doing this are called "Hagelflieger" (Hailflyers). There a just a couple of smal companies offering this services, there are all in the southern regions of Germany (Baden-Würtenberg, Bavaria), most of them just have one smal propllered airplane. They are paid by the local farmers who are afraid to loose their harvest by massive hailing.

For example, this Company here: http://www.hagelabwehr.com/ uses a Cessna 206, that has a max. ceiling of just about 16.000 feet. It just can´t reach the high altitudes of the great airliners.



Here is a short movie about our "Hagelflieger":
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mYmKwKEp26c


So how does Germany manage it, to spread out the "Whole Stratosphere" with silver-iodite if those few smal planes doing their job only on days with strong thunderstorms?
 
Last edited by a moderator:

SR1419

Senior Member.
Hi Dave-

I was under the impression that one needed a cloud to exist already to in order to seed it to enhance precipitation.

Weather modification this country typically involves igniting their silver iodide flares directly into the already existing rain clouds- either from plane mounted flares or ground based rockets.

See this video for an example of a typical cloud seeding operation:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2B3iMc3TG1g


I am confused as to what you are trying to describe- How is jet fuel related? are you saying jet fuel now contains silver iodide?

We know jet fuel when combusted releases water...thats what a contrail is.

What do contrails have to do with cloud seeding? Its seems you are conflating the 2 issues.

Sorry for my confusion...
 

Mick West

Administrator
Staff member
Dave is suggesting that silver iodide is sprayed in clear skies above commercial jet traffic, and the atmosphere is then so full of silver iodide that when a jet flies through it it creates a contrail.

This is nonsense for several reasons, indicated above.
 

FreiZeitGeist

Senior Member.
Dave is suggesting that silver iodide is sprayed in clear skies above commercial jet traffic, and the atmosphere is then so full of silver iodide that when a jet flies through it it creates a contrail.
Ok, my Question to Dave is:

How can these smal Airplanes reach an altitude above commercial airline routes?
Most of them even doesn´t have a pressurized cabin.



(Sorry for misspelling "Silver-iodide" in the posting above ;-)
 
Last edited by a moderator:

Mick West

Administrator
Staff member
Some are pressurized, yet, like this Cessna 421C, have service ceilings of 30,000 feet or lower, and generally operate much lower. Well below contrail formation altitudes in the US.

aircraft3_nawc.jpg
 

Mick West

Administrator
Staff member
And of course, no photos exist of this supposed high altitude clear air seeding. This is very strong evidence that it does not exist (not that you need much evidence)
 

FreiZeitGeist

Senior Member.
Some are pressurized, yet, like this Cessna 421C, have service ceilings of 30,000 feet or lower, and generally operate much lower. Well below contrail formation altitudes in the US.
Yes, but in centrail-Europe the smaler ones are much more common. Our "Hagelflieger" are flying directly into the thunderclouds (or as near as possible).

So there can´t be chemtrails in Europe, especially north-Germany, because this crazy pilots do their jobs only in south-germany, austria and Swiss. :D
 

Rico

Senior Member.
My local weather modification company (Weather Modification Inc.) uses a Piper Cheyenne. It has a service ceiling of 35,840' according to wikipedia, though I doubt it even flies that high (like a lot of planes in it's weight category, I doubt the hull can sustain acceptable pressurization at that altitude). Most commercial airliners these days typically fly at around 40,000 feet, though sometimes a little lower depending on the routing, the weight, and the distance. The service ceiling of some of our newer jets typically cap at around 41-43,000 ft (Reference 747-8 and 737NG).

The whole theory proposed here assumes that there are aircraft flying above these crates, so I'm curious what kind of aircraft Dave has in mind that is doing all this stratospheric iodide spraying world-wide.
 

Trigger Hippie

Senior Member.
The whole theory proposed here assumes that there are aircraft flying above these crates, so I'm curious what kind of aircraft Dave has in mind that is doing all this stratospheric iodide spraying world-wide.
I think Dave's somewhat flawed reasoning might go something like this:

1. Cloud seeding with silver iodide creates clouds.

2. Jet airliners create clouds.

3. Therefore, jet airliners are spraying silver iodide. QED
 

Rico

Senior Member.
There are jets that can fly bit higher than the typical airliner, like a Citation X or certain other biz-jets (and military jets), but naturally, never seen them rigged for 'cloud seeding.' They don't generally fly that much higher than our commercial airliners. Generally caps around 50,000. An F/A-18 has a ceiling about that high.
 

Belfrey

Senior Member.
Weather Modification, Inc. shows the planes they use on this page. One of them (the Lear Jet 35A) is capable of reaching up to 40K feet, but most aren't.

I've been corresponding with Dave by email. He suggested that we could have a debate, but he would only do it verbally. I've had enough experience (with creationists especially) to know that's a very bad idea with these sorts of things. It's easy to win a debate when you can make extraordinary claims without having to back them up.

He claims to have gotten information about cloud seeding directly from those who do it, I'm trying to get him to tell me who so I can contact them myself. Too bad "firepilot" isn't around, I understand he was an experienced cloud seeding pilot?
 
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