Claim: The Indian/Chinese systems of nadis/meridians have been proved by science because of hyaluronic acid and piezoelectricity

Rory

Senior Member.
My feelings on all this so far:

- There are some amazing things in yoga, meditation, spirituality, etc that western science doesn't really understand and/or can't currently explain
- There is also a lot of nonsense in ancient Hindu texts (not difficult to find examples)
- Materialists tend to 'throw the baby out with the bathwater' and, since they lack spiritual experience, prematurely and somewhat blinkeredly conclude that spiritual experience is impossible
- 'Spiritualists' can sometimes be prone to delusion and lack intellectual rigour and historical understanding
- There are "energy channels" within the human body, and these can be felt and utilised
- Probably someone in the distant past sensed this and figured they could 'intuit' a map of it. Then other people embellished that. This happened separately in India and China and, since they were both wrong, neither map lined up
- People hundreds of later still repeat these claims about meridians and nadis, and sometimes provide what they feel is scientific backup for these claims
- We here on metabunk have looked at certain of these claims and found that they lack merit

And here we are today. :)
 

Rory

Senior Member.
Oh gosh, where to even start? And, of course, the answer would depend on what we consider "Hindu texts". The list is very long - and not quite as straightforward as, say, the various versions of The Bible.

But, in any case, the first one that springs to mind is this:


That's from the main science guy at ISKCON (aka, "the Hare Krishnas").

I believe some Hindu scriptures also state that the Earth is flat, static, and that the sun revolves around it (and is many times closer to us than it actually is). Also that Mount Meru is the tallest mountain on Earth, at over 600,000 miles high. Though I suppose you could always argue that the writers of the original scripture didn't mean it literally. Still, here's a little of what's recorded in the Vishnu Parana (Book 2, Chapter 8):

 
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J.d.K

Member
Oh gosh, where to even start? And, of course, the answer would depend on what we consider "Hindu texts". The list is very long - and not quite as straightforward as, say, the various versions of The Bible.

But, in any case, the first one that springs to mind is this:


That's from the main science guy at ISKCON (aka, "the Hare Krishnas").

I believe the Vedas also state that the Earth is flat, static, and that the sun revolves around it (and is many times closer to us than it actually is). Though I suppose you could always argue that the writers of the original scripture didn't mean it literally.
Hmm.. well, what I see is that there are many problems in interpretating texts. First off it is argued that it is actually impossible to translate sanskrit because of the way that language is formed with multiple meanings including those non-existent in english language etc. I'm currently reading an Ayurvedic text with two translations side by side and they are truly terrible. Sometimes it is as if I'm reading two different books. Then there is indeed the question how to interpretate things and wether they are symbolic or not or expressed in a way most suitable to convey a certain idea. There are also scriptures that are codified so not every lay man can interpretate them. ISKCON seems to be quite culty and "our way of looking at hinduism is the only right way"-ish so I don't really care that much what they have to say. The examples you give, I have spoken to my doctor about most of them in the past. To put it shortly, the idea of the earth being flat and that it would be backed up by scripture according to him is a miscomprehension and lack of understanding (but ofcourse flat-earthers love to find evidence for their claims everywhere), but I couldn't explain you why or how exactly. He also never taught me that Rahu is an actual planet. Actually Graha which is (mis)translated into Planet actually means "that which has you in your grasp" referring to the power they hold over us (astrology).

"Eclipses as per the Hindu Vedic scriptures is when Sun, Moon and the Nodal points of Rahu and Ketu come in a straight line. Rahu and Ketu denotes the two points of intersection of the paths of the Sun and the Moon as they move on the celestial sphere. Therefore, Rahu and Ketu are respectively called the north and the south lunar nodes. The fact that Eclipses occur when Sun and Moon are at one of these points gives rise to the myth of the swallowing of the Sun. Hence they are also referred to as shadowy planets." (https://trueayurveda.wordpress.com/2012/05/07/solar-eclipse-of-may-20th-2012/)

Honestly I think it is absolutely ridiculous to think that hindus didn't know that the shadow of the moon is responsible for solar eclipses. But what exactly Rahu is and why it is relevant, I couldn't tell you. Have you read "Invading the Sacred"? It's a great book in which western scholars slaughter Hinduism with absolutely ridiculous statements such as using Freudian dream interpretation techniques to get to the conclusion that the trunk of Ganesha is actually a flaccid penis and that his broken tusk is a sign of castration while no hindu would ever confirm that or begin to think that way. It's the most absurd thing I've read in my life. Anyway, all I mean to say is that we should be careful not to jump to conclusions too fast with regards to other people's religion or culture. We cannot assume to easily understand another culture, especially if it is ancient.
 
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Rory

Senior Member.
Have you read "Invading the Sacred"? It's a great book in which western scholars slaughter Hinduism with absolutely ridiculous statements such as using Freudian dream interpretation techniques to get to the conclusion that the trunk of Ganesha is actually a flaccid penis and that his broken tusk is a sign of castration

Oh lol. Those Freudians see penises and castration everywhere they look. :D

So are you proposing there isn't any nonsense in ancient Hindu texts?

Also:

Honestly I think it is absolutely ridiculous to think that hindus didn't know that the shadow of the moon is responsible for solar eclipses.

That's a peculiar thing to say when I just linked you to an educated Hindu who explicitly declares that's exactly what he believes. ;)
 

J.d.K

Member
Oh lol. Those Freudians see penises and castration everywhere they look. :D
Really, it gets really ridiculous and the sick thing is that those statements then end up in museums and people writing such books are at the top of US religious studies and get prizes and get to write articles in important newspapers and stuff. And the hindus that protest (or even those who just want a debate about it) against it are painted as extremists and unscholarly and biased.
So are you proposing there isn't any nonsense in ancient Hindu texts?
I don't know enough to say that. I just don't want to jump to conclusions too easily.
That's a peculiar thing to say when I just linked you to an educated Hindu who explicitly declares that's exactly what he believes. ;)
No it's not (peculiar). I wrote that in the past tense, referring to the time in which those text were written down. I have no reason to assume that contemporary hindus, especially ISKCON followers, (all) hold the same views as back in the day.
 
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J.d.K

Member
Here's an interesting experiment: spend an hour or two trying to find some bona fide nonsense in a Hindu text.

This could be a good place to start:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hindu_cosmology

Though, of course, you'll always want to trace it back to the original source.
See... that in my mind would be a very arrogant thing to do. Take 2 hours to find nonsense in a Hindu text and start with the wikipedia page? I don't even know how to read Sanskrit so what's the point, and how would 2 hours be possibly enough to do a proper critical examination of a faith? Give ancient hindus 2 hours to critically examine modern western culture and see what they come up with, lol.
 

Rory

Senior Member.
Maybe you misread what I was saying? I'm not saying "critically examine" or do a thorough investigation: I'm saying "find one piece of nonsense". :)
 

J.d.K

Member
Maybe you misread what I was saying? I'm not saying "critically examine" or do a thorough investigation: I'm saying "find one piece of nonsense". :)
The amount wasn't implied in your message. "some bona fide nonsense". Anyway, that doesn't really make a difference to me. To thoroughly investigate something, even one thing, takes time. Especially if it is from a different and old paradigm and in another complex language dissimilar to my own. It's easy to judge based upon the things people taught me in my culture, but is it fair? The invaders of North America proparbly thought they were right when treating the indigenous people as low-life savages, but now, hundreds of years later we have to conclude what assholes we've been and the evironmental and cultural destruction we've caused. In 2 hours, how will I know if I have translated it well, if I am not taking things out of context, If I'm not overlooking things, If I'm not projecting western ideas upon it that weren't there in the original, if the information I hold that might defy the text is actually correct, If I'm not missing the point, If I'm taking literal what is to be taken symbolically, if I miss the cultural context to actually understand what is written etc. if I'm taking a metaphor literally etc.
 

Rory

Senior Member.
Seems to me you have a strong resistance to doing this, and to the idea that Hindu texts may contain errors and flaws.

Probably would be really enlightening and useful to investigate that also. :)
 

NorCal Dave

Member
The ancient archeology argument still stands though.
No it does not.

While off topic, though I see how your using it, I can't let it go. The idea that "ancients" had some sort of "secret knowledge" that western science has yet to discover to explain how they built things is pure rubbish. Like wise is the corollary that goes something like: "If the Egyptians could build the pyramids, they would have understood how the central nervous system worked". Different kinds of knowledge can be mutually exclusive. They had skilled craftsmen to build the pyramids while also thinking that the heart was the center of consciousness.

I assume the argument, as it pertains to this thread, is something to the effect: Ancient Egyptians had some sort of special knowledge that allowed them to build the pyramids that western science is ignorant of, just like Ancient Yogis had special knowledge of how the human body works that western science is just now learning about.
 

Rory

Senior Member.
Yeah, I let that one slide - can o worms there - but, agreed, the argument in no ways "still stands".

Though fair play to him for letting go of the "4000-year-old battery" idea so gracefully.
 

J.d.K

Member
Seems to me you have a strong resistance to doing this, and to the idea that Hindu texts may contain errors and flaws.

Probably would be really enlightening and useful to investigate that also. :)
Lol, that's what you take from that? I'm just careful because of how I see how these kinds of knowledge get absolutely screwed up from different sides by people who don't bother to actually look into them well. I'm gonna study Sanskrit and Ayurveda in India and want to give it a serious chance. Then, if I get to the conclusion that there is a lot of bull, I will know. I will not be skipping through texts just to look for faults. Also, I've been doing this for some years now, so it's not like I'm new to all this.

@NorCal Not just the pyramids though, but yes, that is kind of the point I mean to make. And I understand it is not a very steady argument if you look at the pyramids as just a great piece of architecture, but it really seems to me like there's more to it, but I don't really want to get into that here. By the way, do you have scientific proof that the heart is not the center of conciousness?

Anyway, I am kinda done here. We're not really meeting eachother here is my impression.
 
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NorCal Dave

Member
Yeah, I let that one slide - can o worms there - but, agreed, the argument in no ways "still stands".

Though fair play to him for letting go of the "4000-year-old battery" idea so gracefully.
Yeah your right Rory, had no intention of hijacking your thread. Just couldn't help it, I can't handle that "Graham Hancock" type stuff.
 

Rory

Senior Member.
Lol, that's what you take from that?

Yes, I do, to be honest. I think when I notice someone being so defensive about a belief system and resisting doing things that might challenge that system I get curious as to why that would be. And I think because you appear to be on something of a spiritual path I thought it might be interesting to give you a nudge in that direction: overcoming limiting and false beliefs is certainly a key component of a true spiritual path as far as I can tell. But I'm sure everyone comes to that in their own time.

Do you have scientific proof that the heart is not the center of conciousness?

Science doesn't seem to know what consciousness is, so I wouldn't expect it to know much about where its centre - if it has one - would be located.

It is, however, interesting that when you ask most people to point to "themselves" they generally point to their heart area, rather than to their head.

I think so anyway. :)

Yeah you're right Rory, had no intention of hijacking your thread. Just couldn't help it, I can't handle that "Graham Hancock" type stuff.

Aw, Hancock's not so bad - he did a nice job of helping Michael Shermer make himself look silly on Joe Rogan - but, yeah, it's a shame all those Erich von Däniken 'oopart' ideas turned out to be so daft. :)

Hijack away! I guess we've moved on. ;)
 
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J.d.K

Member
Science doesn't seem to know what consciousness is, so I wouldn't expect it to know much about where its centre - if it has one - would be located.
It was a rhetorical question I posed because he put it out there as the opposite of the craftmenship of building the pyramids i.e. something only an ignorant person (referring to the egyptians) would think or say. As if we would "know better" now.
 

LilWabbit

Active Member
Hey, this might provide some answers. There is so much junk out there with regards to Yoga and Ayurveda... uneducated people just throwing around words like prana without having a clue what they're talking about, but this guy really knows his stuff: https://trueayurveda.wordpress.com/2016/11/19/more-on-pranayama/ Let me know what you think.

I used to live and work in Sri Lanka and India, visiting numerous Buddhist and Hindu temples, studying Eastern religious traditions, mingling with the locals with passion and curiosity, discussing with both scholars of religion and "lay" folks on a wide variety of topics.

In my subjective experience there's one thing that unites Westerners and Indians. Both suffer from hubris. The Western hubris is rooted in the outward success of materialistic civilization, confused with science albeit being essentially a philosophical belief system. The Indian hubris is rooted in ancient 'spiritual' civilization, also confused with science albeit being essentially a philosophical belief system.

In the West we are allergic to spiritual explanations because so much that has passed off as religion in the West has historically proven to be unreasonable, superstitious and even destructive. In the East some are allergic to "Western" science because, in its uncanny ability to demystify or disprove the more blatant superstitious claims, it feels like an assault to cultural pride and established hierarchies. For the same reason the Church opposed scientists during and after the European Rennaissance.

What for many a Western yoga enthusiast may seem like a panacea to all ills, may rightly come across to you as a poor attempt to appropriate Indian culture without deeper understanding. Likewise, what for you may seem like a spiritual path of finding the Atman within, rooted in ancient tradition, may come across to others as allowing fancy to obscure your better judgment, and regarding your own imagining as the voice of the Eternal.
 

J.d.K

Member
What for many a Western yoga enthusiast may seem like a panacea to all ills, may rightly come across to you as a poor attempt to appropriate Indian culture without deeper understanding. Likewise, what for you may seem like a spiritual path of finding the Atman within, rooted in ancient tradition, may come across to others as allowing fancy to obscure your better judgment, and regarding your own imagining as the voice of the Eternal.
I'm not actually on a spiritual path as far as I'm aware so there's no imagining going on here. It just interests me. Of yoga I only know the basics theoretically. What I will be studying is Ayurveda and allthough I don't think it can be completely disconnected from spirituality, it is, as per my understanding, mostly concerned with mental and physical health.

On the subject of western yoga enthusiasts and panacea to all ills... this is what a yoga teacher told me in a conversation about the nature of peanuts in Ayurveda:

"Regarding your question about peanuts, yes it is a very powerful source of food in the yogic practice. Especially in Isha Yoga centre, they serve soaked raw ground nuts (peanuts) in every meal. It is a key source of protein and gives a lot of energy.

The red skin on the nuts contain high level of heat (pitta) When you soak the in the water, you will see that the water turns red. Just keep changing and rinse the water until the color is clear. Then you eat the nuts, it will be much balanced.

If this is not done, I will get a lot of heat in my system, typical thing is to have ulcer in my mouth. Also I feel a lot of anger."


Even though I like her, sorry, this is just moronic and completely made up (even though it might seem real to her). So yes, very poor attempt to appropriate Ayurveda.

Likewise, what for you may seem like a spiritual path of finding the Atman within, rooted in ancient tradition, may come across to others as allowing fancy to obscure your better judgment, and regarding your own imagining as the voice of the Eternal.
I get that, but what's your point? In the end, only one of two parties can be right. Either (true) yoga is a treal path that leads to actual spirituality and the realisation of Atman within, or one regards ones own imagining as the voice of the Eternal. They cannot both be true. I don't buy the idea of "everyone has their own truth and neither one is more true than the other" if that is what you're implying.
 
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LilWabbit

Active Member
Even though I like her, sorry, this is just moronic and completely made up (even though it might seem real to her). So yes, very poor attempt to appropriate Ayurveda.

I understand. But in that case you shouldn't feel offended if putting too much faith in Ayurveda as a real science may also come across "moronic and completely made up" to those well-versed in the rigours of the scientific method.
 

J.d.K

Member
" ...you shouldn't feel offended..."
I don't. It's a bit frustrating ofcourse, but it is completely as could be expected. Ayurveda is mentioned as a pseudo-science on Wikipedia (the ultimate source of truth ;)) and we're on a debunk website full of people that hold high the western scientific method. I'm not at all suprised this is how this conversation went down and it's fine really. I'm getting used to it. It is a little sad though to get to the conclusion that often it might be better to not talk at all.
 
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LilWabbit

Active Member
I don't. It's a bit frustrating ofcourse, but it is completely as could be expected. Ayurveda is mentioned as a pseudo-science on Wikipedia (the ultimate source of truth ;)) and we're on a debunk website full of people that hold high the western scientific method. I'm not at all suprised this is how this conversation went down and it's fine really. I'm getting used to it.

I think it's incorrect to label it "Western scientific method", particularly when its various modern features have evolved incrementally over centuries, incorporating methods and approaches innovated in Greece, India, the Islamic world and more lately the Western world. Modern science is the fruit of historical cultural exchange more than anything else.

The hypothetico-deductive method of modern science is very much embraced by superb Indian, Arab, Chinese, Persian, Japanese and African scholars today as they are by "Westerners". Not everything needs to be viewed as a cultural war, especially when it's so intimately rooted in cultural exchange throughout history. Some Eastern traditionalists wish to label science "Western" in order to trivialize something that is considered a little bit of a threat.
 
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J.d.K

Member
I think it's incorrect to label it "Western scientific method", particularly when its various modern features have evolved incrementally over centuries, incorporating methods and approaches innovated in Greece, India, the Islamic world and more lately the Western world. Modern science is the fruit of historical cultural exchange more than anything else.

The hypothetico-method of modern science is very much embraced by superb Indian, Arab, Chinese, Persian, Japanese and African scholars today as they are by "Westerners". Not everything needs to be viewed as a cultural war, especially when it's so intimately rooted in cultural exchange throughout history. Some Eastern traditionalists wish to label science "Western" in order to trivialize something that is considered a little bit of a threat.
Personally I think modernity and its science itself has been hugely driven by the west. I'm not a big believer in modern science (but who cares really), but I don't consider it a threat. I would love to have faith in the modern scientific method since, as you say, it is everywhere... and I would love to have good knowledge everywhere. I just doubt it is as good as we tend to think it is. Anyway, I'm getting bored of this conversation. Let's just drop it.
 
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LilWabbit

Active Member
Personally I think modernity and its science itself has been hugely driven by the west. Whatever the west is by the way (since it is a cardinal point). I'm not a big believer in modern science (but who cares really), but I don't consider it a threat. I would love to have faith in the modern scientific method since, as you say, it is everywhere... and I would love to have good knowledge everywhere. I just doubt it is as good as we tend to think it is. Anyway, I'm getting bored of this conversation. Let's just drop it.

I think you're right in being critical towards all sorts of things being claimed in the name of science, leaving us perplexed as to what has really been proven and what hasn't. And this does happen a lot in the West. But true science is really about using our reason, our powers of observation and ability for disciplined collaborative effort to establish truths. I think everyone sensible "believes" in that. And there's nothing exclusively "Western" about it.
 

Mauro

Active Member
By the way, do you have scientific proof that the heart is not the center of conciousness?
Well, after a heart transplant a person stays the same as before (just with a different heart), it's not that he changes his personality because he received the heart of another person (or a liver, or a kidney). Is this enough proof? I bet one can live even without a heart and be conscious, connected to a machine similar to those used during surgeries which keep the blood circulation going even if the heart is stopped (or there's no heart at all). It may have happened already, ie. someone with a total heart failure kept artificially alive while the heart for the transplant is found.
 

J.d.K

Member
Well, after a heart transplant a person stays the same as before (just with a different heart), it's not that he changes his personality because he received the heart of another person (or a liver, or a kidney).
Thanks. That's actually interesting and I didn't think of that. However, what you're saying might not actually be true. Note that I am not taking this from a woo woo website:
Personality changes following heart transplantation, which have been reported for decades, include accounts of recipients acquiring the personality characteristics of their donor. Four categories of personality changes are discussed in this article: (1) changes in preferences, (2) alterations in emotions/temperament, (3) modifications of identity, and (4) memories from the donor's life. The acquisition of donor personality characteristics by recipients following heart transplantation is hypothesized to occur via the transfer of cellular memory, and four types of cellular memory are presented: (1) epigenetic memory, (2) DNA memory, (3) RNA memory, and (4) protein memory. Other possibilities, such as the transfer of memory via intracardiac neurological memory and energetic memory, are discussed as well. Implications for the future of heart transplantation are explored including the importance of reexamining our current definition of death, studying how the transfer of memories might affect the integration of a donated heart, determining whether memories can be transferred via the transplantation of other organs, and investigating which types of information can be transferred via heart transplantation. Further research is recommended.
Source: https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/31739081/
That doesn't prove however that you take on the consciousness of another person. It does seem to imply that some of your character comes from your physical heart, but does personality/character equal consciousness? I also wonder if there's multiple levels of the heart... as in the physical thing and perhaps a more subtle energetical level that might be closer to ones conciousness and which might not change when undergoing a heart transplantation or perhaps even when introducing an artificial heart (but hey, that is speculation and I fully understand that might sound all woo woo to you)
 

Mauro

Active Member
Thanks. That's actually interesting and I didn't think of that. However, what you're saying might not actually be true. Note that I am not taking this from a woo woo website:
...
The article you cite is behind a paywall so I cannot really comment on it (and not that I have any expertise in the field). With all the due respect to Pubmed, it looks woo. At least the hypothesis they make to find a plausible link between heart transplant and personality changes (supposed the effect they report is actually true and specific to heart transplants, which I doubt) are rooted in reality, that's already way better than nadis and non-material energy. From the abstract, they fail way short of the goal: explaining how an heart transplant could possibly transfer some characteristics of the brain connections of one individual to those of a recipient (it's silly, really).
Hypotesizing 'multiple levels' does not help much either: every time you need to add an hypothesis to justify a belief, the probability of that belief being true decreases by the amount that hypothesis is improbable. If I need to add an ad-hoc explanation to support my belief, and that hypothesis has, say, a probability of one in ten to be true, then the probability of my belief being true decreases by 10, automatically. I'd expect the hypothesis of 'multiple levels' to have a significantly lower probability to be true than one in ten, but who knows.

On a more fundamental level, are your 'multiple levels' testable, do they leave any possibly measurable imprint on the physical world? If you think they are testable then you need to face the reality that in 2021 we can measure an awful lot of incredibly small things, as has already been said before, and no hint of multiple levels has ever been found. If you think they have an effect so subtle that even in 2021 we are not able to measure them, this is a 'God of the gaps' argument and you are also faced with the problem of explaining how such a minuscule effect can possibly have any consequence on our life. If you think the effect is spiritual or supernatural it becomes an argument from faith.
 
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Mendel

Senior Member.
With all the due respect to Pubmed, it looks woo.
Pubmed is just a database.
The paper was actually published in "Medical Hypotheses".
Article:
Medical Hypotheses will publish ideas or criticisms of ideas from any person, irrespective of whether any experimental testing of the ideas has been performed by the writer.

Article:
Medical Hypotheses is a not-conventionally-peer reviewed[2] medical journal published by Elsevier. It was originally intended as a forum for unconventional ideas without the traditional filter of scientific peer review, "as long as (the ideas) are coherent and clearly expressed" in order to "foster the diversity and debate upon which the scientific process thrives."[3] The publication of papers on AIDS denialism[4][5][6] led to calls to remove it from PubMed, the United States National Library of Medicine online journal database.[5]Following the AIDS papers controversy, Elsevier forced a change in the journal's leadership. In June 2010, Elsevier announced that "submitted manuscripts will be reviewed by the Editor and external reviewers to ensure their scientific merit".[7]

Not quite as trustworthy as other medical journals, I'd say.
 

J.d.K

Member
Just sharing
Heart transplantation is not simply a question of replacing an organ that no longer functions. The heart is often seen as source of love, emotions, and focus of personality traits. To gain insight into the problem of whether transplant patients themselves feel a change in personality after having received a donor heart, 47 patients who were transplanted over a period of 2 years in Vienna, Austria, were asked for an interview. Three groups of patients could be identified: 79% stated that their personality had not changed at all postoperatively. In this group, patients showed massive defense and denial reactions, mainly by rapidly changing the subject or making the question ridiculous. Fifteen per cent stated that their personality had indeed changed, but not because of the donor organ, but due to the life-threatening event. Six per cent (three patients) reported a distinct change of personality due to their new hearts. These incorporation fantasies forced them to change feelings and reactions and accept those of the donor. Verbatim statements of these heart transplant recipients show that there seem to be severe problems regarding graft incorporation, which are based on the age-old idea of the heart as a centre that houses feelings and forms the personality.
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/1299456/

It is generally assumed that learning is restricted to neural and immune systems. However, the systemic memory hypothesis predicts that all dynamical systems that contain recurrent feedback loops store information and energy to various degrees. Sensitive transplant patients may evidence personal changes that parallel the history of their donors. Objective: To evaluate whether changes following heart transplant surgery parallel the history of the donors. Design: Open-ended interviews with volunteer (1) transplant recipients, (2) recipient families or friends, and (3) donor families or friends. Setting: Hospitals in various parts of the country. Patients: Ten recipients (7 males, 3 females; 7 months to 56 years old), received heart (or heart-lung) transplants (5 males, 5 females; 16 months to 34 years old). Main Outcome Measures: Transcripts of audio taped interviews quoted verbatim. Results: Two to 5 parallels per case were observed between changes following surgery and the histories of the donors. Parallels included changes in food, music, art, sexual, recreational, and career preferences, as well as specific instances of perceptions of names and sensory experiences related to the donors (e.g., one donor was killed by a gun shot to the face; the recipient had dreams of seeing hot flashes of light in his face). Conclusion: The incidence of recipient awareness of personal changes in cardiac transplant patients is unknown. The effects of the immunosuppressant drugs, stress of the surgery, and statistical coincidence are likely insufficient to explain the findings. The plausibility of cellular memory, possibly systemic memory, is suggested.
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/10882878/
 

Rory

Senior Member.
These ideas are quite interesting. Perhaps they deserve their own thread so that they can be properly investigated?
 

J.d.K

Member
These ideas are quite interesting. Perhaps they deserve their own thread so that they can be properly investigated?
Up to you all. Personally I'm done but if you make one I'll read your findings. I'm open to either outcomes.
 

Rory

Senior Member.
For those interested in the idea of what 'spirituality' means by the "heart", the words of Ramana Maharshi are perhaps fitting here:

 

J.d.K

Member
For those interested in the idea of what 'spirituality' means by the "heart", the words of Ramana Maharshi are perhaps fitting here:

And this is from the Charaka Samhita (Ayurvedic text): "Hrudayam does not literally mean the organ heart (which is defined as a hollow muscular cone shaped organ). It is described as the seat of the mind, the objects of mind, sense faculties, five objects of senses, consciousness and the soul together with its qualities like happiness etc. (Cha. Sam., Sut. 30/3-4)."

Seems coherent with what was said earlier about the Egyptians. True or not, that's a coherency of thought by two ancient cultures that are not close in a geographical sense.
 

Mauro

Active Member
For those interested in the idea of what 'spirituality' means by the "heart", the words of Ramana Maharshi are perhaps fitting here:

Awww, but.. but.. this totally spoils my argument from heart transplants... :) :)
 
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J.d.K

Member
Awww, but.. but.. this totally spoils my argument from heart transplants... :) :)
Written with the usual tone of condescension (correct?), because there cannot possibly exist knowledge outside of modern science.
 
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Mauro

Active Member
Written with the usual tone of condescension (correct?), because there cannot possibly be knowledge outside of modern science.
Two claims in one sentence. Written, as everything else I wrote here, hoping it may be a stimulus for someone (not necessarily you, but I'd be glad if it were you) to review the logic on which their beliefs are grounded. No possible knowledge outside of modern science is a totally different topic, this is not the place to discuss it.
 

J.d.K

Member
Two claims in one sentence. Written, as everything else I wrote here, hoping it may be a stimulus for someone (not necessarily you, but I'd be glad if it were you) to review the logic on which their beliefs are grounded. No possible knowledge outside of modern science is a totally different topic, this is not the place to discuss it.
I'd love the be told that I'm wrong in my detection of condenscension. It's how it came across, but on the internet, with all these total strangers, and with the limited amount of emoticons, how can one be sure.
 

Mendel

Senior Member.
Just sharing
No control group in either study. No idea if the subjects were "blinded", i.e. unaware of the biography of their donors. To find some things in common with their donors is akin to a non-psychic fortune teller doing a reading, which in this case wasn't even "cold", but probably informed.

Looking for evidence for the alternate hypothesis is much more fruitful, as a google search for "consciousness brain activity pubmed" shows.

Here's an example:
Article:

Large-Scale Functional Brain Network Reorganization During Taoist Meditation​


Meditation induces a distinct and reversible mental state that provides insights into brain correlates of consciousness. We explored brain network changes related to meditation by graph theoretical analysis of resting-state functional magnetic resonance imaging data. Eighteen Taoist meditators with varying levels of expertise were scanned using a within-subjects counterbalanced design during resting and meditation states. State-related differences in network topology were measured globally and at the level of individual nodes and edges. Although measures of global network topology, such as small-worldness, were unchanged, meditation was characterized by an extensive and expertise-dependent reorganization of the hubs (highly connected nodes) and edges (functional connections). ...

There is a large body of evidence for the hypothesis that the brain is the interface between the human consciousness and the human body.
 

Mendel

Senior Member.
I'd love the be told that I'm wrong in my detection of condenscension. It's how it came across, but on the internet, with all these total strangers, and with the limited amount of emoticons, how can one be sure.
Because focusing on these things usually leads down unfruitful avenues, Metabunk has a politeness policy, which I recommend (re-)reading in full, but which in particular asks us to
Article:
  • Do not respond to the tone of their post instead of the content
 

J.d.K

Member
No control group in either study. No idea if the subjects were "blinded", i.e. unaware of the biography of their donors. To find some things in common with their donors is akin to a non-psychic fortune teller doing a reading, which in this case wasn't even "cold", but probably informed.
K. And even without that 6% isn't much. But I didn't actually read the articles. 38 euro's for an article.


Do not respond to the tone of their post instead of the content
K. Gotta respect the rules. What about this though?:
Avoid Humor and Sarcasm. Everyone likes a chuckle, but not everyone recognizes humor. It gets in the way of communication. Just say what you mean.
 
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