Claim: The Indian/Chinese systems of nadis/meridians have been proved by science because of hyaluronic acid and piezoelectricity

Rory

Senior Member.
I've been seeing this claim for a few years and I believe it's mentioned in some of the books of Paul Grilley, but finding a source for the claim or any paper relating to it seems difficult. Now I've been asked to proofread a book that repeats the claim, like so:

The ancient healing traditions of yoga and Ayurveda, as well as the vast system of Chinese medicine, have long believed we are made of energy. Thousands of years ago, yoga, acupuncture, tai chi, and qi gong developed a language to explain this concept, which goes something like this:

The human body is made up of nadis. Nadis are pathways through which energy flows. When we practice yoga, we harness this energy. In doing so, we’re able to create a life force which heals and supports the body, mind, and spirit in profound ways.

Until very recently, the concepts of prana (life force), and nadis (energetic pathways), were esoteric and abstract to the Western mind. How do you understand something you can’t see with the human eye? How do you comprehend that which isn’t seen in the physical body after the soul has moved on at death?

Lucky for us modern day yoga teachers, Western science has come to a point in its own evolution whereby it has been discovered that the energetic body exists. While ancient saints, seers, and yogis have known this phenomenon for millennia, it’s important for us to wrap our western minds around such a concept—in order to evolve as yoga teachers and yoga students. The better we understand these concepts, the more effective our classes (and our practice) will be. So, let’s break it down.

Prana, which is called chi in the Chinese tradition, is life force energy. In scientific terms some aspects of prana are called piezoelectric energy. This life force—prana, chi, piezoelectric energy—whatever you choose to call it, is what allows living organisms to adapt.

Imagine dragging your feet along a rug. The rug creates an electric charge within you, which then produces a shock when you touch the doorknob of your bedroom door. This is similar to piezoelectric energy. It’s an electric charge within your body. This electric charge runs along a circuit in the body. The circuit is made of hyaluronic acid.

Upon further examination of life force energy in scientific terms, we see this:

When piezoelectric energy moves through the area of hyaluronic acid, it looks like a circuit running throughout the body. This circuit often corresponds to the ancient nadis. If you lay a map of these hyaluronic acid pathways over a map of the nadis, they look the same!
(Bold added by me to highlight specific claims.)

Now, I know pretty much next to nothing about "hyaluronic acid" and "piezoelectric energy" - nor about nadis, prana, meridians and chi, to be honest - but it all sounds a bit far-fetched to me.

I guess the question is: is there any truth in this idea that piezoelectric energy runs through a circuit of hyaluronic acid; that this circuit has been mapped by "science"; and that it "looks the same" as ancient maps of the nadis?

Feels like some citations are required.
 

FatPhil

Active Member
I like how the effect is like both piezoelectricity and static electricity, I'm curious what they think the union of those is, apart from involving electrons. They seem unaware that piezoelectricity is reversible - what happens to the body when this reverse happens? Also - what's the pressure causing this piezoelectricity, and what solid are they claiming builds up the charge separation? Smells more of woo-woo than anything else.
 

Rory

Senior Member.
Okay, here's one actual paper that seems at least partially connected to this claim:

https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/epdf/10.1002/ar.10185

It states:

Acupuncture meridians traditionally are believed to constitute channels connecting the surface of the body to internalorgans. We hypothesize that the network of acupuncture points and meridians can be viewed as a representation ofthe network formed by interstitial connective tissue. This hypothesis is supported by ultrasound images showingconnective tissue cleavage planes at acupuncture points in normal human subjects. To test this hypothesis, wemapped acupuncture points in serial gross anatomical sections through the human arm. We found an 80%correspondence between the sites of acupuncture points and the location of intermuscular or intramuscularconnective tissue planes in postmortem tissue sections. We propose that the anatomical relationship of acupuncturepoints and meridians to connective tissue planes is relevant to acupuncture’s mechanism of action and suggests apotentially important integrative role for interstitial connective tissue.

I can't pretend to understand that stuff or how it relates to the claim in the OP.

Regarding the idea of hyaluronic acid as some sort of 'circuit' within the body that corresponds to nadis/meridians, the main source seems to be Dr Hiroshi Motoyama's 'modern meridian theory' - but whether there's any science behind it or it's just an idea I've yet to discover.

(He does have a wikipedia page, where he's labelled a "parapsychologist, pseudoscientist, spiritual instructor and author" - though I don't think just because wikipedia calls someone a 'pseudoscientist' is enough to debunk something, since wikipedia tends to hand that particular designation out a little too freely in my opinion.)
 

Rory

Senior Member.
Pinpointing the source of the claim:

After years of research Dr. Motoyama published “Measurement of Ki Energy Diagnoses & Treatment: Treatment Principle of Oriental Medicine from an Electrophysiological Viewpoints” in 1977, to articulate the correlation between Nadi Lines and Prana, or Ki energy. Dr. Motoyama discovered that gently stressing the joints and pulling the bones apart through a series of long holds stimulates the production of hyaluronic acid (HA). HA is an extremely large and hydrophilic molecule which binds water and ions. It can retain 10 times its weight in water. According to Motoyama, when this molecule is in abundance it becomes the building block of the Nadi Line. The HA molecules coil together to create a barrier, an electrically insulated tube within which an aqueous solution provides extremely conductive channels, tiny superhighways of prana. In essence, Motoyama’s discoveries establish that Yin Yoga restores and strengthens the flow of Prana by increasing the abundance of HA in the joints. So, when HA is in abundance so is the life force in our bodies.

http://sofiamileti.com/restorative-yoga-hyaluronic-acid-meridians-chi/

That's very similar to what a friend who teaches this theory told me: there's a network of hyaluronic channels in the body; hyaluronic acid binds water (the figure normally quoted is "1000 times its weight"); water conducts electricity; therefore there's an electrical circuit within the body, and this corresponds to the meridians/nadis.

Anyway, following the trail of Motoyama I come to the California Institute for Human Science, which he founded in 1992. On the website there's a page that talks about an Apparatus for Meridian Identification (AMI):

The AMI works by monitoring the electrical conductivity and capacity at specific acupoints at the tip of fingers and toes. It measures the electrical conductivity, capacitance, and polarization of skin tissue and fluids; it uses these to evaluate the tissue condition and the functioning of the acupuncture meridians and their corresponding internal organs. After years of research, CIHS found Dr. Hiroshi Motoyama was able to show that there is a close correlation between the electrical conductivity of meridians and the flow of Ki (or Chi) in the meridians.

https://www.cihs.edu/ami-research

On this page there are many links to extracts from the aforementioned book and "AMI research papers". At first glance, they appear 'scientific' [tsic], though the only paper that was published in a journal that has an SJR-rating (of 0.44) is this one:

https://05078625-9e0f-4ffc-823c-889...d/c3921d_23f3e917bf1848b096845d5bc19d6d10.pdf

So I guess that's a good place to start. No mention of hyaluronic acid in that one though - but there is in these extracts from the book:

Structure and Function of the Dermis
Characteristics of the Dermal Connective Tissue which seems to determine the BP Values
Fundamental Physical Nature of the BP Current

Anyone understand skin, cells, and electricity? I don't. :)
 
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Rory

Senior Member.
PS The CIHS catalog makes for interesting reading:

https://www.cihs.edu/catalog

I see that in the 2003/04 edition this course was offered:

LP 711 Physical Structure and Bioelectrical Properties of the Skin

The course is intended to teach basic knowledge on the anatomy and physiology of the water-rich phase of the dermal connective tissue. The mechanism of the formation of the electrical field and the gradient of the electrical potential in the connective tissue resulting from the filtering function of mucopolisaccharides (such as hyaluronic acid) will be studied. Recommended preparation: LP 512. (4 units)

http://www.markfoster.net/struc/cihs-2003.pdf

I don't see anything similar offered today - but lots of courses using the aforementioned AMI.
 

Mauro

Active Member
I have looked around but I did not find any debunk of the specific claims from specialists in the field.

It looks to me the claims are at best woo and at worst not even wrong, but I'm no specialist in anatomy nor physiology so I cannot go further with confidence. That said:

- All of the human body is a relatively good electricity conductor (and it's not due to water, which by itself has a very low conductivity, but rather to ions dissolved in the body fluids)
- Thus, in order to canalize the flow of electricity it's not enough to have a conductor, you also need an insulation between the conductor and the exterior (which is also conducting). I.e. neurons conduct electricity and indeed they have an insulation: the cell membrane of the neuron itself. They are very clearly organized in a network, with specialized and evident couplings between cells, and measuring their electrical signals is rather easy (action potential in nerves were discovered in 1843 by Emil DuBois-Reymond, says wikipedia).
- Thus the 'hyaluronic acid circuits' (or any other kind of circuit) would have to be insulated (by membranes for instance). I doubt this could have escaped attention until now. They should also be organized in a network (actually in cables/bundles following the 'meridians'), yet another thing I doubt could have escaped attention. Lastly, any meaningful electrical signal would have been recorded long ago (notice they are long range signals, 'meridians' run through the whole body).
- And in the end the main argument against acupunture is it does not work, and no amount of hyaluronic acid can overcome this .

We hypothesize that the network of acupuncture points and meridians can be viewed as a representation of the network formed by interstitial connective tissue.
If what the article says is true (I cannot give any technical judgement on https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/epdf/10.1002/ar.10185) I have a different hypothesis: the 'meridians' are just lines drawn on the outside of the body and they naturally tend to follow the outline of muscles (and of the intervening connective tissue). Consider also this:
What's more, nobody can seem to agree on how many meridians there are or where they should be. At one point acupuncture charts mapped 365 points, based on the number of days in the year, not on anatomy. But today acupuncturists claim to have "discovered" some 2,000 meridian points, pretty much guaranteeing that you could glue a needle to a dart, chuck it at the patient from across the room, and hit one of them. Are there 9, 10, or 11 meridians? Nobody seems to know. It doesn't matter, because no research has found evidence (PDF) for the existence of acupuncture points, meridians, or qi.
https://skeptoid.com/episodes/4431 (there are many good articles debunking acupunture and meridians in general)


About piezoelectricity: I know something about it but from the point of view of industrial actuators, no idea how that could apply to the human body though. Soft tissues seem to be very ill suited to work as a piezoelectric generator but it seems bones do generate piezoelectric potentials:
Scientists discovered that bone was a piezoelectric material in 1957. Since then, they have found that piezoelectricity occurs when bone collagen fibers slide against each other. This leads to the accumulation of charges and the generation of a tiny current, which opens up calcium ion channels in bone cells called osteocytes. This triggers a cascade of signaling pathways that ultimately promote bone formation.
https://phys.org/news/2020-02-bone-natural-electricity-regeneration.html

It's a local phenomenon: the potential is dissipated (through the tiny current) where it is generated so there is no need for an insulation, which would instead be required if one wanted to channel the current somewhere. For example: if you want to use the femur as a piezoelectric generator to power a 'cable' running from the hip to the knee you need to insulate both the femur and the channel. I guess that would be pretty evident, even to the people who originally discovered the bones piezoelectric effect in 1957.
 

Rory

Senior Member.
Thanks for taking the time to look into this, all very interesting. I'm especially piqued by your statement that it wouldn't be possible for electrical current to flow through specific (non-insulated) channels because the whole of the human body is conductive, cos that would seem to debunk the notion right there.

Interesting also to learn that water in and of itself isn't a great conductor, but rather it's the ions in impure water that facilitates the conducting of electricity. One learns something new everyday! :)

I think the wording in the OP can be fairly dismissed as woowoo and bunk - a clumsy interpretation, probably, of someone else's interpretation of Motoyama's claims - so now I'm more interested in getting to the bottom of Motoyama's stuff and that machine he made.

I found a patent for it here. There it says:

The apparatus diagnoses the function of every internal organ by measuring the change of electric resistance at a plurality of specific points in the surface layer of the living body.

There are diagrams and descriptions and stuff; but, as ever, it's over my head.

This seems to be the most detailed paper I can find, and I've written to one of the authors. I also found these pictures of it in action:

1623939042194.png
Source: https://psy-tek.com/testing/apparatus-for-meridian-identification/

I wonder what it's actually doing?
 
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Mauro

Active Member
Thanks for taking the time to look into this, all very interesting. I'm especially piqued by your statement that it wouldn't be possible for electrical current to flow through specific (non-insulated) channels because the whole of the human body is conductive, cos that would seem to debunk the notion right there.

Interesting also to learn that water in and of itself isn't a great conductor, but rather it's the ions in impure water that facilitates the conducting of electricity. One learns something new everyday! :)

I think the wording in the OP can be fairly dismissed as woowoo and bunk - a clumsy interpretation, probably, of someone else's interpretation of Motoyama's claims - so now I'm more interested in getting to the bottom of Motoyama's stuff and that machine he made.

I found a patent for it here. There it says:



There are diagrams and descriptions and stuff; but, as ever, it's over my head.

This seems to be the most detailed paper I can find, and I've written to one of the authors. I also found these pictures of it in action:

1623939042194.png
Source: https://psy-tek.com/testing/apparatus-for-meridian-identification/

I wonder what it's actually doing?
He measures electrical resistance between different points of the body (fingers and toes, it seems). This is not difficult to do of course!

Measuring resistances is a legitimate method to investigate the properties of materials, it's used for instance by geologists:
Two properties are of primary concern in the application of electrical methods : (1) the ability of rocks to conduct an electric cur-rent, and (2) the polarization which occurs when an electrical current is passed through them (induced polarization). The electrical conductivity of Earth materials can be studied by measuring the electrioal potential distribution produced at the Earth’s surface by an electric curren.t that is passed through the Earth or by detecting the electromagnetic field produced by an alternating electric cur-rent that is introduced into the Earth. The measurement of natural electric potentials (spontaneous polarization, telluric currents, and streaming potentials) has also found application in geologic investigations. The principal methods using natural energy sources are (1) telluric current, (2) magnetotelluric, (3) spontaneous polarization, and (4) streaming potential.

And I do not doubt that measuring skin resistances can give useful data (ie.: how much the skin is moist). What's outlandish is the claim of Motoyama that this allows to " .... diagnoses the function of every internal organ by measuring the change of electric resistance at a plurality of specific points in the surface layer of the living body which are directly related to the internal organ." It's so silly (even fractally wrong) that it doesn't deserve consideration (not mentioning that it's Motoyama or his followers who need to present proofs that what they say is true, not the other way around). Just look at this figure in the patent application:

And compare it with this one:





"Electrodiagnostic devices", such as Motoyama's also have a long history.. the best I can do is to refer you to the Quackwatch article here, I'm sure there are many more online articles on the subject.
 

Mendel

Senior Member.
"piezoelectric energy" is snake oil.

Electric energy is electric energy, and the pathways for it through the body are the nerve fibres. If I was looking for a scientific network of "life force", I'd be looking there, because if you cut the nerves, your will (as a form of life force) gets cut off from your limbs, which you can no longer control (example: a quadriplegic). Pain applied to part of your body reaches your self through the nerves, as do sensations.

The piezoelectric effect is the property of some materials (crystals) to convert pressure to electricity and vice versa. It's not a form of energy, it is a way to convert between different forms of energy (mechanical<-> electric).

For the good Mr. Motoyama, what I would want to know is what knowledge he claims his apparatus can give him. And then you should think about how a debunker like James Randi would have tested the claim: maybe have someone who is schooled in the use of the apparatus rake measurements of different people with different ailments, and then have Motoyama diagnose these people from the measurements alone. If his writings do not contain any testable claims, they are bunk. If Motoyama has failed to tsst them, they are likely bunk.
 

Rory

Senior Member.
"Electrodiagnostic devices", such as Motoyama's also have a long history.. the best I can do is to refer you to the Quackwatch article here

Ah yes, that Quackwatch article is a good resource: I don't see Motoyama's AMI mentioned, but I do see several other machines that were described as doing the same thing (with regard to meridians) such as the Acugraph and Prognos, and it seems to describe the whole process very thoroughly. Interesting to note that the FDA has banned importation and marketing of EAV devices (though doesn't appear to do much about it).

Following links related to the Prognos machine I see claims that it was used by cosmonauts on the Mir space station:

Prof. Dr.Med.V.Polyakov in 1993 and 1994, traveled 438 days with the MIR space station around Earth. During his flight, the Prognos system was used to monitor the health of the cosmonauts in space.

http://progressieve-geneeskunde.nl/en/what-is-prognos/

The same site also says that:

The Portland State University in Canada, has shown that the Prognos diagnosis and therapy can reliably determine the situation of the meridians. Prognos is utilized in several hospitals there.

http://progressieve-geneeskunde.nl/en/valery-polyakov/

Actually, they mean Portland State University in Oregon - but elswhere on the site they get it right:

For five years, the Portland State University in Oregon has conducted systematic studies of the mechanisms of acupuncture and also researched similarities between Western diagnosis techniques and Oriental energetic readings.

http://progressieve-geneeskunde.nl/en/?s=prognos

Interestingly, however, the first PSU paper I read concludes that:

Within the reliability limits of our study methods, none of the three Acupuncture Points (APs) tested has lower skin impedance than at either of the [two] nearby control points [on the Meridian line (MPs) and off it (NPs)]. These results are not consistent with previous studies that detected lower skin impedance at APs than nearby sites. Further study is necessary to determine whether MPs have lower skin impedance than nearby NPs. Our study suggests caution is warranted when developing, using, and interpreting results from electrodermal screening devices. Further studies are needed to clarify the clinically important and controversial hypothesis that APs are sites of lower impedance.

https://pdxscholar.library.pdx.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1000&context=ece_fac

In a nutshell, they found no difference in conductivity when measuring at an acupuncture point, a point on a supposed meridian line, or a point away from a supposed meridian line. This was in contradiction to previous claims, but in agreement with more rigorous and controlled studies, which found that conductivity would vary according to:

the skin/electrode interface
probe size and shape
pressure exerted by the probe
duration of probe application
inclination of the probe tip on the skin
variations in skin condition (dry/moist, thickness and integrity of the stratum corneum)
the frequency of applied current
whether a multichannel system, a concentric probe, a four-electrode system, or a two-electrode system is used
fluctuations in the underlying psychophysiologic condition of the subject
potential investigator bias

https://pdxscholar.library.pdx.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1000&context=ece_fac

Not looking good for any of the claims around the ideas posted in the OP.
 
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Rory

Senior Member.
All of the human body is a relatively good electricity conductor (and it's not due to water, which by itself has a very low conductivity, but rather to ions dissolved in the body fluids)

So I've been talking with a friend who teaches this 'theory' as part of his yoga teaching and he's been admirably open to it being 'bunk'.

One question he had when I presented him with the above point was: well what if there's a 'channel' of highly conductive matter surrounded by less conductive matter? Would that then not create something akin to a non-insulated channel?

I could see some logic in this: I suppose it's a bit like a lightning strike hitting a tree. The electricity flows through the branches of the tree, even though the tree is surrounded by a substance that also conducts electricity (ie, the air) - it's just that the tree conducts better.

Thoughts?
 
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Mendel

Senior Member.
One question he had when I presented him with the above point was: well what if there's a 'channel' of highly conductive matter surrounded by less conductive matter? Would that then not create something akin to a non-insulated channel?

I could see some logic in this: I suppose it's a bit like a lightning strike hitting a tree. The electricity flows through the branches of the tree, even though the tree is surrounded by a substance that also conducts electricity (ie, the air) - it's just that the tree conducts better.


Damp wood (as in an alive tree) has a resistivity of 1000 to 10,000 Ω·m
Air has a resistivity of 1 billion (US) to 1 quadrillion (US) Ω·m
( source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electrical_resistivity_and_conductivity )

So there is a factor of at least 100,000 between the tree and the air

Here's a study on the resistivity of human tissues:
Article:
The aim of this study was to investigate systematically the resistivities of human tissues as published in review studies (100 Hz-10 MHz). A data set of 103 resistivities for 21 different human tissues was compiled from six review studies. For each kind of tissue the mean and its 95% confidence interval were calculated. Moreover, an analysis of covariance showed that the calculated means were not statistically different for most tissues, namely skeletal (171 Ω·cm) and cardiac (175 Ω·cm) muscle, kidney (211 Ω·cm), liver (342 Ω·cm), lung (157 Ω·cm) and spleen (405 Ω·cm), with bone (>17 583 Ω·cm), fat (3850 Ω·cm) and, most likely, the stratum corneum of the skin having higher resistivities. The insignificance of differences between various tissue means could imply an equality of their resistivities, or, alternatively, could be the result of the large confidence intervals which obscured real existing differences.

Basically, all soft tissues have similarly low resitivities (since they're all basically impure water), with bone and fat slightly higher. You need insulating sheaths like the nerves have for electricity to be channeled.

A better analogy than the tree is a pipe system: if you have a big pipe with small taps then most water will stay in the big pipe (but some flows out); if you have bigger taps you have much less water in the big pipe. The water doesn't "stay in the bigger pipe because it is more comfortable", it goes everywhere it can. And so does electricity, proportional to the resistance of the tissue, unless it is insulated.
 

Mauro

Active Member
Damp wood (as in an alive tree) has a resistivity of 1000 to 10,000 Ω·m
Air has a resistivity of 1 billion (US) to 1 quadrillion (US) Ω·m
( source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electrical_resistivity_and_conductivity )

So there is a factor of at least 100,000 between the tree and the air

Here's a study on the resistivity of human tissues:
Article:
The aim of this study was to investigate systematically the resistivities of human tissues as published in review studies (100 Hz-10 MHz). A data set of 103 resistivities for 21 different human tissues was compiled from six review studies. For each kind of tissue the mean and its 95% confidence interval were calculated. Moreover, an analysis of covariance showed that the calculated means were not statistically different for most tissues, namely skeletal (171 Ω·cm) and cardiac (175 Ω·cm) muscle, kidney (211 Ω·cm), liver (342 Ω·cm), lung (157 Ω·cm) and spleen (405 Ω·cm), with bone (>17 583 Ω·cm), fat (3850 Ω·cm) and, most likely, the stratum corneum of the skin having higher resistivities. The insignificance of differences between various tissue means could imply an equality of their resistivities, or, alternatively, could be the result of the large confidence intervals which obscured real existing differences.

Basically, all soft tissues have similarly low resitivities (since they're all basically impure water), with bone and fat slightly higher. You need insulating sheaths like the nerves have for electricity to be channeled.

A better analogy than the tree is a pipe system: if you have a big pipe with small taps then most water will stay in the big pipe (but some flows out); if you have bigger taps you have much less water in the big pipe. The water doesn't "stay in the bigger pipe because it is more comfortable", it goes everywhere it can. And so does electricity, proportional to the resistance of the tissue, unless it is insulated.

Exactly.

Lightning is also a bad analogy from another point of view: the electric field is so high that no useful comparisons can be made with a current flowing through the human body. Air is ionized by the intense electric field, this is why it can conduct a lightning even if its basic (non-ionized) conductivity is so low. And a tree is preferentially hit by a lightning because with respect to air it's practically a short-circuit (as Mendel says) and it's higher than the surrounding ground (so less air needs to be ionized for the lightning to start) and, importantly, because of Coulumb's theorem: basically, the more something is sharp the more the local electric field is strong, thus at the top of a branch the electric field is much higher than on flat ground and the ionization starts there preferentially (this is how lightning rods work, btw). So, nothing really comparable to what happens in a human body (unless struck by a lightning, of course xD).

Mendel's pipe analogy is instead rather good for the purpose.
 
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