Boston bombing suspect's friend Ibragim Todashev shot and killed by FBI

Pete Tar

Senior Member.
Yeah, just saw this.
That was the murders of the three Jews that were possibly connected to the older brother.

http://edition.cnn.com/2013/05/22/justice/florida-fbi-shooting-boston/index.html
 

Mick West

Administrator
Staff member
This is a misleading title...it isn't a shootout when you kill an unarmed man.
I agree, and I've changed it it:
"Boston bombing suspect's friend Ibragim Todashev shot and killed by FBI "

He certainly did not have a gun, but there are differing accounts of what actually happened. I'm thinking perhaps they were a bit trigger happy. Reminds me of Jean Charles de Menezes.

This is the latest info I could find on Todashev:

http://articles.orlandosentinel.com...rights-20130609_1_shooting-probe-u-s-attorney

 

Soulfly

Banned
Banned
The article is from the morning of the incident so the headline could just be misinformation and not intentional misleading.
 

AluminumTheory

Senior Member.
Worth pointing out is that this guy was suspected to be involved in the 2011 Waltham Murders in which 3 men had their throats slit to the point of near decapitation.

So the guy who did this was obviously very proficient with a knife and someone to be scared of.
 

Josh Heuer

Active Member
http://www.bostonglobe.com/metro/20...ing-suspect/ya3iB1u4t2YQYN9wfMVseJ/story.html
I'm not sure how this all works, but the FBI is stopping the autopsy from being released to the public because the investigation of his death is still ongoing.
This kind of thing really confuses me. The FBI was there, they killed him, now they're investigating? What takes so long? Why would the release of the autopsy hinder their investigation?
Can someone please clue me in. I'm clueless.


Also...
Worth pointing out is that this guy was suspected to be involved in the 2011 Waltham Murders in which 3 men had their throats slit to the point of near decapitation.

So the guy who did this was obviously very proficient with a knife and someone to be scared of.
Notice he was *suspected*
Doesn't mean he did it.
Also doesn't mean he is 'very proficient with a knife and someone to be scared of'
That's jumping the gun big time.
 

AluminumTheory

Senior Member.
Also...

Notice he was *suspected*
Doesn't mean he did it.
Also doesn't mean he is 'very proficient with a knife and someone to be scared of'
That's jumping the gun big time.
Doesn't mean he did it, it means they think he did it or was involved which would imply that there is reason to fear him if he attacks you in the event that is true.

Not really jumping the gun.
 

Josh Heuer

Active Member
Worth pointing out is that this guy was suspected to be involved in the 2011 Waltham Murders in which 3 men had their throats slit to the point of near decapitation.

So the guy who did this was obviously very proficient with a knife and someone to be scared of.
Here, let's dispel your obviously exaggerated claims.
Straight from Wikipedia...

2011 Waltham murders
Main article: 2011 Waltham murders
A triple homicide was committed inWaltham, Massachusetts, on the evening of September 11, 2011.[8][15] Three men, Brendan Mess, Erik Weissman, and Raphael Teken, were murdered in Mess's apartment. All had their throats slit from ear to ear, with such great force that they were nearly decapitated. Illegal marijuana worth thousands of dollars was left covering their bodies, and $5,000 was left at the scene. The local district attorney said that it appeared that the killer and the victims knew each other, and that the murders were not random.

Tamerlan Tsarnaev, the deceased suspect in the April 2013 Boston Marathon bombings, had previously described murder victim Brendan Mess as his best friend, though before Mess was murdered there had been animosity between Tsarnaev and Mess over Mess's "lifestyle". After the bombings and subsequent revelations of Tsarnaev's personal life, the Waltham murders case was reexamined in April 2013 with Tsarnaev as a new suspect.[8] Todashev's friendship with Tsarnaev then led to him being questioned for potential connection with the murders and other actions involving Tsarnaev.



So basically he was BEING questioned about these murders, not even suspected to be involved, only having a connection to the older Tsarnaev who was best friends with one of the deceased.
So he wasn't directly connected to the crime that we know of...basically indirectly connected. That makes you think he is, in your words, 'obviously very proficient with a knife and someone to be scared of.' ???
And that's not jumping the gun?
 

Josh Heuer

Active Member
Because he attacked them...
That's a good point you bring up.
However, I think it's important to consider that first off, that is not yet accurate information. The FBI is still reviewing the case. Although with their perfect track record of internal investigations on FBI agents killing people in these situations, I think we can bet our money on the outcome being in favor of the FBI being justified.
Either way, there's discrepancies on what happened that day, so we can't really say it who did what.
Again from Wikipedia...



On May 22, 2013, law enforcement officers, including an FBI special agent from theBoston field office, and two Massachusetts State Police (MSP) troopers, interviewed Ibragim Todashev for approximately eight hours at his apartment in Orlando, Florida. They questioned him regarding the 2011 Waltham murders and his connections to the Boston bombings suspect Tamerlan Tsarnaev.[2][16] Both Todashev and Tsarnaev had trained at the Wai Kru gym and lived close to each other in Cambridge, Massachusetts.[9] The investigators later said that Todashev implicated both himself and Tamerlan Tsarnaev in the murders during the questioning. They reported that Todashev was beginning to write a formal statement when he asked to take a break, and then suddenly attacked the FBI agent.[2][16] Todashev was shot multiple times and killed.[2][17][18]

Officials initially claimed that Todashev picked up a knife or attempted to grab a samurai sword, but later said that it was unclear whether this was the case; one source said it was "a knife or a pipe or something". A number of later reports said that he was unarmed.[17][18][19][20] Some earlier accounts implied that the FBI agent was alone with Todashev at the time of the shooting.[18] Following Todashev's death, his father showed photographs to reporters in Moscow that he said demonstrated his son had been shot at point-blank range in the head.[21] According to the account of an unnamed law enforcement official, Todashev knocked the interrogating agent to the ground with a table, and then lunged at him with a metal pole, or possibly a broomstick.[22] In this account there was one detective in the room—who did not fire—besides the FBI agent.[22] The agent sustained minor injuries requiring stitches. An account given by former FBI deputy director John Miller states that an MSP trooper "noticed that Todashev was getting more and more agitated. Rather than alert the agent and tip off Todashev that they sensed something was about to happened, [the trooper] texted the agent and [wrote], 'Be careful, I think this guy is becoming more agitated'. As the agent looked down at that text, that's when the table went over, Todashev came over the table and picked up apparently a metal broom handle or some object like that [...] and charged the agent. The agent [w]as knocked back, came up with his gun, fired two or three times. Todashev came back at him and he fired more times." Authorities have confirmed that the agent fired six times.[23]

Todashev's body was flown to Russia on June 20 by his American widow and his father,[24] and was buried in a Muslim cemetery in Grozny on June 29.[25] The FBI established a post-shooting incident-review team to investigate the shooting.[16] On July 16, the release of Todashev's autopsy report, completed by a Florida medical examiner's office, was blocked by the FBI because the "case was still under active investigation."[26]

Allegations of civil rights violations and excessive use of force
On May 29, the Council on American–Islamic Relations (CAIR), an American Islamic civil liberties group, held a news conference in Orlando at which it presented photographs of Todashev's body which it said showed that he was shot seven times, once in the head.[27] CAIR asked theDepartment of Justice for an investigation separate from the FBI investigation into the shooting to determine whether the FBI violated Todashev's civil rights.[28] The FBI immediately responded with releasing a statement saying: "The FBI takes very seriously any shooting incidents involving our agents, and as such, we have an effective, time-tested process for addressing them internally. The review process is thorough and objective and conducted as expeditiously as possible under the circumstances."[29]

On June 5, the American Civil Liberties Union (ACLU) has also called for an independent investigation into the shooting. Michael German, a former FBI agent and ACLU's counsel on national security, immigration and privacy,[30] said: "What became concerning is that different stories... were coming out. They need to correct the record—both for the protection of the people in the community and for the protection of the law enforcement officers."[29][31] A Department of Justice spokesman said that they are going to determine whether their Civil Rights Division investigation of the killing is warranted.[32]
 

Pete Tar

Senior Member.
Here, let's dispel your obviously exaggerated claims.
...
So basically he was BEING questioned about these murders, not even suspected to be involved, only having a connection to the older Tsarnaev who was best friends with one of the deceased.
So he wasn't directly connected to the crime that we know of...basically indirectly connected. That makes you think he is, in your words, 'obviously very proficient with a knife and someone to be scared of.' ???
And that's not jumping the gun?
You really don't think there was any ground for suspicion as to possible involvement? That would seem to be an obvious avenue they would explore.
There was speculation that more than one person was involved due to how their throats were cut.
What's the exaggerated claim exactly?
Potential connection makes him a suspect.
 

Cairenn

Senior Member.
If Zimmerman can use self defense as a reason for shooting Trayvon, then someone attacked with any weapon can do the same. The agent had to have stiches, so it does seem he was attacked.

I did not really like the Zimmerman verdict, but I think it was correct.
 

Josh Heuer

Active Member
You really don't think there was any ground for suspicion as to possible involvement? That would seem to be an obvious avenue they would explore.
There was speculation that more than one person was involved due to how their throats were cut.
What's the exaggerated claim exactly?
Potential connection makes him a suspect.
Well, your first point was this...

"Worth pointing out is that this guy was suspected to be involved in the 2011 Waltham Murders which 3 men had their throats slit to the point of near decapitation.

So the guy who did this was obviously very proficient with a knife and someone to be scared of."

First off, you exaggerated just how involved he is in the crime. You said he was suspected to be involved. Again, read Wikipedia. He was questioned simply because he knew someone who was thought to be involved, which yes, makes him a suspect, but doesn't mean he was involved in any way. (I am friends with someone who threw a Molotov cocktail at city hall in my town and went to jail for it [almost found guilty of terrorism], does that make me an expert with Molotov cocktails and someone to be afraid of simply because I know him?)

You're jumping the gun when you take the idea he is somehow involved in this crime (without evidence, remember he was only being questioned because of his connection to someone else who was thought to be part of the crime.) and using it to make the statement that he's proficient with a knife and someone to be afraid of.

Also, the victims were nearly decapitated. Doesn't sound like they were proficient at all. If these guys were radicalized like the government is trying to claim (tsarnaev's 6 month trip overseas) then I would imagine they would have fully decapitated the individuals.


Anyway, then your second point as to why you think he's proficient with a knife and someone to be afraid of is
"Because he attacked them..."

And that's to be determined. As I said before though, internal investigation, the FBI is bound to be found justified whether he attacked or not.
However, read Wikipedia again, multiple accounts, multiple weapons used, we don't even know if he used a knife at this point.
 
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Pete Tar

Senior Member.
Their throats were slit with such force that they were nearly decapitated, it wasn't a failed decapitation.
And you're replying to Aluminium Theory not me.
 

Josh Heuer

Active Member
Sorry 'bout that Pete Tar, I didn't realize someone different posted a response.

Anyway, to answer your question, I guess I could only assume in this instance that, apart from just being associated with someone who may/may not have been involved the crime, law enforcement must have had some conclusive evidence against him or something linking him to the crime to want to question him. But, that's just speculation. Maybe someone could link me to anything that explains what exactly they had on him.
 

Pete Tar

Senior Member.
Umm... how did you miss this, or do you discount it as not worth listening to?


Now I'm even more confused as to why your were claiming he was just being questioned but not as a suspect.

(and they are unlikely to release the exact proof they had of his involvement as it would still be an active case - suffice it to say they have stated in no uncertain terms that he was involved.)
 

Josh Heuer

Active Member
Again, there's no real evidence he was involved, yet. Wikipedia points out that he was being questioned simply because he was friends with someone who may have been involved. After multiple hours of interrogation, he was killed, conveniently while writing a confession.
I'm just a little suspicious of this story, especially with the mix ups in accounts of what happened, and how he was killed. Sounds more like an execution.
Again, the FBI is well known for having a perfect track record in these internal investigations of homocides. Of course it will be swept under the rug. The fact that the FBI can get away with making sure no other agency is involved in investigating a crime THEY committed says something to me, especially when they continuously find their actions justifiable. You may think I'm some conspiracy theorist for thinking this way, but I think it's more than reasonable at this point to question the FBi's actions in this instance.

They're just people like you and me. Some may have the best of intentions, but they're not all good people.
 

Josh Heuer

Active Member
I wanted to post this a while ago but kept forgetting...
From Huffington Post
The whole thing is iffy because the FBI stated he was being questioned about the Boston bombings due to him knowing Tsarnaev...the interview had nothing to do with the 2011 triple homicide, but he implicated himself, just before being murdered by an FBI agent.
It looks like the only actual evidence the FBI had that linked Todashev to the triple homicide was his confession.
But, then again, that's just from the news reports. For all we know, they did have some piece of evidence linking him directly to the murder scene; which would explain why he might try to attack the agent interviewing him and taking his confession.

Edit: looks like I'll have to dig a little deeper on this...huff post reported the FBI said the interview was about Boston. NYTimes says FBI said they were questioning him about the homicides. I'm not sure of the significance but one if these isn't right.
 
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