1. Landru

    Landru Moderator Staff Member

    You have been placed in moderation due to excessive off topic posts.
     
  2. Oystein

    Oystein Active Member

    Are you sure you talk about the east wall? Not the eastern third of the north wall?
    I am asking because I am not aware of any video showing the east wall clearly during collapse. Only one I am aware of that shows east wall at all is this:

     
    • Informative Informative x 2
  3. benthamitemetric

    benthamitemetric Active Member

    Do you have any video that shows the east wall of the building during the collapse? I'm not aware of any. Regardless, your claims about how it could or couldn't have deformed are, again, mere bare assertions. In your previous post re the modeling you did, you said you only modeled the northern wall and not the east wall, so it seems unlikely that you can even pretend to have a basis for these particular bare assertions.

    And the NIST isn't "pretending" anything with its model. It's a global model based on certain clearly-stated assumptions and simplifications that follows from the output from the ANSYS model, which also was based on certain clearly-stated assumptions and simplifications. You will never have a computer model that is not based on assumptions and simplifications. The assumptions are necessary due all of the unknown variables re the condition of the building and the simplifications are necessary because no computer model can account for everything in such a complex event. There is no reasonable expectation that any computer model could produce an exact collapse visualization that matched reality given such assumptions and simplifications, and it makes zero sense to pretend that, because NIST's model (predictably) does not perfectly match reality, that all of your bare assertions re the collapse in reality needing to be caused by a controlled demolition therefore follow.

    And you are still avoiding actually defining your criteria for how much the upper portion of the northern wall would have to deform in any non-controlled demolition collapse. You are making claims based on such criteria, so you should be able to articulate them.
     
  4. Oystein

    Oystein Active Member

    Tony has also been avoiding the problem of the EPH collapse - in his view, it is unconnected to the global collapse (affecting only a couple of top storeys), which is silly on its face.
     
  5. Tony Szamboti

    Tony Szamboti Active Member

    Oy and Bentham, two birds with one proverbial stone here. You can see the east wall in the actual collapse in the video I posted in post #74. Here it is again for your convenience

    Source: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LMeXKNWcbew

    There is no buckling up high like there should be if the east side interior had collapsed first and there is in NIST's inaccurate model.
     
    Last edited: Oct 11, 2017
  6. Tony Szamboti

    Tony Szamboti Active Member

    Of course, NIST is pretending. Their model does not replicate a very large part of the beginning of the collapse in that there is no severe deformation of the east exterior wall in the real collapse and there is in theirs. That's because they took out the whole east side interior, but the structural behavior of the real building shows that could not have happened. Call making things up whatever you like, but that is just what the NIST WTC 7 report is doing. Your objections to that reality have no merit. The actual video shows no deformation of the east wall and everyone can see there isn't. Goodnight. I don't have all night to spend with those who don't even want to admit to a reality in front of their faces. Let me know when you can do so.
     
  7. Redwood

    Redwood Active Member

    This is the video that quite clearly shows a perimeter column falling long after most of WTC 7 has collapsed. How do Truthers deal with that?
     
  8. Landru

    Landru Moderator Staff Member

    There are serious questions being asked of you that you are not answering. This is one of the reasons you're in moderation.
     
  9. Oystein

    Oystein Active Member

    Uhm ... *baffled* ... Tony? No! What you say is FALSE and the exact opposite is true:

    You can NOT see the east wall in the actual collapse in the video you posted in post #74. You can only see the north wall.
     
    • Winner Winner x 1
  10. benthamitemetric

    benthamitemetric Active Member

    Indeed. Don't even know what to say to this. Is it possible that after 8+ years talking about this, AE911Truth's most vocal mechanical engineer does not actually know the shape and orientation of WTC7?
     
  11. Tony Szamboti

    Tony Szamboti Active Member

    The east exterior wall is certainly visible in the video I posted in post #74. The video was filmed from the northeast.
     
  12. deirdre

    deirdre Moderator Staff Member

    @Tony Szamboti regarding my deletion of your off topic posts... if you wish to 'debate' other members of this thread one-on-one on ANOTHER forum (because we require evidence here) then please private message them.
     
  13. benthamitemetric

    benthamitemetric Active Member

    You are mistaken. The video you posted in post 74 is of topmost portion the northern face of the building. The eastern face cannot be seen at all as the eastern wall is at an acute angle to the north wall and runs south-west to the south wall. It is truly amazing that you do not seem to understand the orientation of, and what is visible in, the most famous collapse video of the building.

    [​IMG]

    Oystein separately posted a video wherein you can see a portion of the east wall for a few seconds of the collapse, but you certainly can't see most of the wall for most of the collapse. That video is not a sufficient basis to say much of anything about the overall behavior of the eastern wall. For whatever reason, you cannot seem to bring yourself to acknowledge the glaring limits to what you know and insist on filling in all the gaps with your bare assertions. Maybe step back and re-read my earlier post and actually try to address what I wrote. That might help you break out of these tired old assertions and facilitate an actual evidence-based discussion.

    For starters, you are still avoiding actually specifying any actual criteria for which we'd even judge the behavior of the wall that cannot be clearly seen in any video, even if we could see it.
     
  14. benthamitemetric

    benthamitemetric Active Member

    Just to elaborate on my point above how you cannot see the east face of the building from the camera view provided by Tony in post 74, here is that camera angle via google maps:

    upload_2017-10-12_10-13-10.

    upload_2017-10-12_10-54-23.

    The camera was a CBS camera located in midtown at the GM Building on fifth avenue. For argument's sake, I have assumed it was located on the east side of that building. That location is about 4 miles north of where WTC7 stood and about a block to the east. The eastern face of WTC7, however, was angled. You can see the angle of that east face in the foot print of the park where the park abuts W. Broadway just below the southern point of the line I drew (the new WTC7 abandoned the old WTC7's expanded footprint, which let the city extend Greenwich St. and build a new park). There shouldn't be any doubt about this as the video itself is clear, but the map shows also clearly that the camera's vantage point was not far enough to the east to see the eastern face.

    It is also worth repeating that none of the camera angles show what was happening to most of any of the building's faces from any side as they are obscured by other buildings in every known piece of footage, so we're only talking about the topmost sections of those faces, in any case.
     
    Last edited: Oct 12, 2017
    • Informative Informative x 1
  15. Oystein

    Oystein Active Member

    To tighten up benthamitemetric's and my case further, here is the evidence that the video Tony made reference to was indeed shot from the GM building at 767 5th Ave, New York City, NY 10153, USA.

    Again, this is Tony's video (I am not embedding again to keep this post a bit shorter):

    Source: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LMeXKNWcbew


    It actually has footage from two different cameras. From 0:00 to 0:14 minutes, we het this perspective:

    TonyVideo 10s.
    and from 0:17 minutes to the end, we get this perspective:
    TonyVideo 23s.

    In the next two images, I have drawn in the contours of three buildings that are seen in both angles:

    TonyVideo 10s augmented.
    TonyVideo 23s augmented.
    Especially when you lool at the tall building behind WTC7 (which, I assume, is one of the WFC towers, but that's unimportant), it is obvious that the second camera position is to the left (east) of the first position. So that camera has a better chance of capturing the east wall, right?

    Now, to determine which camera position that is, let's turn to two truther pages and their repositories:
    First, a video posted by Nathan Flach:


    From this video, here is a screenshot at 3 seconds - augmented and original:
    NathanVideo 03s augmented.
    NathanVideo 03s.
    The yellow line is just a vertical under the gap between EMP and WMP.
    It is obviously the very same camera. Even the marqee is the same. Nathan has this video description:
    Secondly, turn to http://www.911conspiracy.tv/7_WTC.html#CBS_GM_Building and scroll down just a little to the third video: "3. CBS GM Building". To the left there is a screenshot, which reproduce here with some contours augmented:
    WTC7_CBS_GM_Building_cam augmented.
    This screenshot is taken a second or so earlier, before the text marquee "LOWER MANHATTAN VIDEOTAPE" is shown (run the videos to see that I picked the moment for my screenshot when that text first appeared).
    Again, obviously the same camera.

    911conspiracy.tv has this description of the video (my emphasis):
    Shot from the GM building.

    The address of the GM Building can be found at Wikipedia: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/General_Motors_Building_(Manhattan)

    It is 767 5th Ave, New York City, NY 10153, USA, which "is bound by Fifth Avenue and Madison Avenue between 59th Street and 58th Street". And that's next to the SW-corner of Central Park, just as benthamitemetric has it in his map:
    https://www.openstreetmap.org/?mlat=40.763889&mlon=-73.9725&zoom=18#map=15/40.7615/-73.9792
     

    Attached Files:

  16. Redwood

    Redwood Active Member

    Just to help: The other camera location was the CNN camera atop 5 Penn Plaza. I once thought that there were only four videos that captured the complete collapse sequence of WTC 7, until I realized there were actually two. (Reading the invaluable NCSTAR 1-9 really helped!) Here's the CNN video: (

    Source: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wqA46_bX5n0(https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wqA46_bX5n0)
    You can tell from the parallax that the CBS and CNN videos are distinct.