Debunked: Ancient Aliens

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Soulfly said:
I'm confused, you think it might be from an ancient civilization but from one that was advanced enough to make it look modern?
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No, I think it was from a civilization with advanced metallurgy capabilities . . .and old enough to be embedded in limestone and have its wooden handle fossilized . . .
 
Soulfly said:
So then you could believe that this was made by humans, in a civilization, that has been documented but that you just can't identify?
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I really don't know of a human civilization that has been documented that is old enough to meet the age required to fossilize wood . . .
 
George B said:
I really don't know of a human civilization that has been documented that is old enough to meet the age required to fossilize wood . . .
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http://www.icr.org/article/1145/
Imagine their surprise when they realize that wood can petrify quickly, and that no informed geologist would say it takes an excessively long time, certainly less time than it takes for wood to decay in a given environment.
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Edit I don't believe in creationism, I just didn't pay attention at first. LOL But they are debunking it all the same.
 
Soulfly said:
http://www.icr.org/article/1145/
Imagine their surprise when they realize that wood can petrify quickly, and that no informed geologist would say it takes an excessively long time, certainly less time than it takes for wood to decay in a given environment.
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Edit I don't believe in creationism, I just didn't pay attention at first. LOL But they are debunking it all the same.
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This is what I get when I don't read everything through first. :mad:
 
Soulfly said:
http://www.icr.org/article/1145/
Imagine their surprise when they realize that wood can petrify quickly, and that no informed geologist would say it takes an excessively long time, certainly less time than it takes for wood to decay in a given environment.
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Edit I don't believe in creationism, I just didn't pay attention at first. LOL But they are debunking it all the same.
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Interesting . . . if true . . . it substantiates my observation that the handle was possibly fossilized . . . the only question remains . . . how old was the hammer . . . maybe it was modern . . . as in the last hundred years or so . . .
 
George B said:
Brass Bell in Coal
In 1944, as a ten year old boy, Newton Anderson dropped a lump of coal in his basement and found that it contained this bell inside. The bituminous coal that was mined near his house in Upshur County West Virginia is supposed to be about 300 million years old! What is a brass bell with an iron clapper doing in coal ascribed to the Carboniferous Period? According to Norm Sharbaugh’s book Ammunition (which includes several “coal anecdotes”) the bell is an antediluvian artifact.
The Institute for Creation Research had the bell submitted to the lab at the University of Oklahoma. According to the Institute, the bell was delivered for analysis by the nuclear activation method.The nuclear activation analysis revealed that the bell contains a strange mix of metals, different from any known modern alloy, with an unusual mixture including copper, zinc, tin, arsenic, iodine, and selenium. While it is brass, it is not the brass alloy that has been used by our civilization since at least the rise of the Sumerian culture some six thousand years ago.
Genesis 4:22 states that Tubal-Cain was “an instructor of every artificer in brass and iron…” Perhaps when his civilization came to an end in the flood, this bell was buried with a mass of vegetation that became coal and ended up thousands of years later in Newt Anderson’s coal bin. The bell was prominently featured in the 1992 CBS docudrama production called Ancient Secrets of the Bible and is now part of the Genesis Park collection. Later on, Newton Anderson spent a great deal of time researching the demon atop the bell. He discovered similarities to the Babylonian Southwest Wind Demon and the Hindu deity Garuda. Garuda is sometimes depicted on top of bells, as is the Egyptian Isis. Demonic worship seems to take on similar forms in various cultures (like the Venus figurines from disparate lost cultures and the ancient fascination with pyramids), which doesn’t necessitate that they were culturally related. At our request, Mr. Anderson was examined by an expert polygraph specialist to further validate his claims.http://manvsarchaeology.wordpress.com/2012/02/01/creation-x-files-part-1/
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So you're suggesting some ancient civilization made this bell, the bell got buried, and the trees and life around it were turned into coal over time yet the extreme pressure allowed the bell to survive without being disfigured? Right. And that's after you trust that Mr. Anderson found it the way he says he did. Even if he did, it could have been a kind of coal slurry. This article, which discusses a similar case, explains how it can happen.

http://paleo.cc/paluxy/ironpot.htm
As to the aspect of the account which could invalidate it even if the workers were not intentionally lying, let us consider the following. In a mining environment, it is common to find puddles saturated with particles of whatever material was being mined. If a man-made object falls into such a sediment-laden slurry, the sediment will often consolidate around it. Over a period of years this sediment can dry and harden considerably, forming a concretion like structure resembling a piece of the original formation.
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Dan Wilson said:
So you're suggesting some ancient civilization made this bell, the bell got buried, and the trees and life around it were turned into coal over time yet the extreme pressure allowed the bell to survive without being disfigured? Right. And that's after you trust that Mr. Anderson found it the way he says he did. Even if he did, it could have been a kind of coal slurry. This article, which discusses a similar case, explains how it can happen.

http://paleo.cc/paluxy/ironpot.htm
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I didn't say how it happened . . . I really don't have answers just questions . . . I also have talked to people who have found manufactured items in coal veins . . .
 
George B said:
Do you mean does what has been presented here to debunk the possible existence of significantly more ancient civilizations and possible ET interference . . . NO!
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Well, you know that would be impossible.

Debunking generally debunks claims of evidence, not probabilities. The evidence of embedded artifacts has been plausible explained.
 
Mick said:
Well, you know that would be impossible.

Debunking generally debunks claims of evidence, not probabilities. The evidence of embedded artifacts has been plausible explained.
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That is the disconnect is it not . . . the strategy to segment concepts or beliefs into debunk-able units works in the micro-view but fails to convince the larger macro-viewer until the preponderance of the subunits are neutralized . . . and then only if there are not other multiple alternative plausible explanations . . .
 
George B said:
That is the disconnect is it not . . . the strategy to segment concepts or beliefs into debunk-able units works in the micro-view but fails to convince the larger macro-viewer until the preponderance of the subunits are neutralized . . . and then only if there are not other multiple alternative plausible explanations . . .
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A disconnect from what? If a "unit" is false, then why not remove it?

And you don't need multiple alternatives, just one is fine.
 
Mick said:
A disconnect from what? If a "unit" is false, then why not remove it?

And you don't need multiple alternatives, just one is fine.
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That may sound rational to you but not to me . . . because someone gives me a plausible explanation for one subset of evidence it does not eliminate other explanations nor necessarily invalidates a concept or theory . . . as I said it is the total weight or preponderance of evidence that convinces me of anything . . .
 
Dan Wilson said:
George, please be serious. What evidence​?
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You think you have convinced me there is no possibility that manufactured items can and have been found in rock strata . . . you have not . . . sorry to disappoint you . . . http://www.6000years.org/frame.php?page=stuff_in_coal http://www.delusionresistance.org/creation/antedeluvian_finds.html
While most scientists currently agree that humans left Africa some 60,000 years ago, Cremo presents a large body of evidence indicating that humans have existed in North America for hundreds of millions of years. Cremo describes how numerous things including skeletons, a metal vase, and a very modern looking shoe print have been found in solid rock dating back hundreds of millions of years. None of this information is presented in modern anthropology and archeology textbooks, due to bias toward censoring findings that disagree with dominant paradigms. Cremo's anti-evolutionary stance may be unsettling or outright distasteful to some, but when read with an open mind to review the facts he presents, we can empathize with his outrage for how so much archeological evidence has for so long been repressed. http://www.amazon.com/The-Forbidden-Archeologist-ebook/dp/B004RUZTSC/ref=dp_kinw_strp_1
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NOTE: I do not endorse a young earth theory in anyway . . . I feel quite the opposite . . . IMO humans and culture go back way beyond what is academically accepted today . . . and especially when I was in undergraduate school . . .
 
George, I recommend the BBC show The Incredible Human Journey:

There's a version of it on YouTube (this is one of five parts, the others are there too)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vwa6o-s1Yvs

While there are lots of unknowns, the spread of human civilization is quite well documented. Of course you can't prove that the odd alien did not come to visit, but again there's really no evidence that they did.
 
Mick said:
George, I recommend the BBC show The Incredible Human Journey:

There's a version of it on YouTube (this is one of five parts, the others are there too)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vwa6o-s1Yvs

While there are lots of unknowns, the spread of human civilization is quite well documented. Of course you can't prove that the odd alien did not come to visit, but again there's really no evidence that they did.
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I have no problem with the evidence of the spread of the human species and cultural development or even the evidence of human physical evolution . . . it doesn't discount or contradict IMO the age of culture or ultimately the existence of humans is previous cyclical habitations that may have existed . . .
 
George B said:
I have no problem with the evidence of the spread of the human species and cultural development or even the evidence of human physical evolution . . . it doesn't discount or contradict IMO the age of culture or ultimately the existence of humans is previous cyclical habitations that may have existed . . .
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Which age of culture? The point of the show is that they track the spread of humans from Africa quite precisely over a limited period of time. Any theory of previous civilizations has to fit into that time and space line.
 
Mick said:
Which age of culture? The point of the show is that they track the spread of humans from Africa quite precisely over a limited period of time. Any theory of previous civilizations has to fit into that time and space line.
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Why? If artifacts and evidence exist which don't fit into the same shoe . . . it doesn't contradict the Africa shoe fits . . . it just means possibly there are more shoes that were not found conveniently in the storeroom where they were expected to be found . . .
 
George B said:
You think you have convinced me there is no possibility that manufactured items can and have been found in rock strata . . . you have not . . . sorry to disappoint you . . . http://www.6000years.org/frame.php?page=stuff_in_coal
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What makes you think the bell is too old for known human history?

What makes you think that about the hammer?
http://paleo.cc/paluxy/hammer.htm
One problem for hammer advocates is that careful analysis of the nodule's composition could conclusively refute Baugh's claim that it is an out- of-place artifact, but could not confirm it. That is, if the nodule contained only geologically recent material, there would be no reason to consider the hammer any older. However, as noted by Cole, if the nodule contained or was composed of ancient material, the hammer itself could still be of recent origin, since it could have been left in a place where a solution of ancient sediment collected and hardened around it. Such limy concretions can sometimes form in decades or less, and have been found around modern objects such as World War II artifacts (McKusick and Shinn, 1980). It's even possible that the nodule might contain a mixture of ancient and modern sediments or organic remains, as might occur in muddy muddles and pits in a mining operation.
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Why? If artifacts and evidence exist which don't fit into the same shoe . . . it doesn't contradict the Africa shoe fits . . . it just means possibly there are more shoes that were not found conveniently in the storeroom where they were expected to be found . .
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You first have to demonstrate that there are indeed artifacts that are impossible for the timeline we have been able to work out so far. To my knowledge, no one has found a genuine one. You have not explained why the explanations presented for the artifacts you have pointed to are inadequate.
 
Dan Wilson said:
What makes you think the bell is too old for known human history?

What makes you think that about the hammer?
http://paleo.cc/paluxy/hammer.htm





You first have to demonstrate that there are indeed artifacts that are impossible for the timeline we have been able to work out so far. To my knowledge, no one has found a genuine one. You have not explained why the explanations presented for the artifacts you have pointed to are inadequate.
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1) The hammer may or may not be ancient . . . we simply don't know . . .
2) I don't have to convince or prove anything to you nor am I interested in doing so . . . I am personally satisfied there are multiple examples of unexplained artifacts found in rock strata both published and unpublished to convince me these artifacts are not explainable and may well be ancient . . .
 
George B said:
1) The hammer may or may not be ancient . . . we simply don't know . . .
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Then why present it here as proof of advanced lost civilizations? What makes it being ancient more likely than not?

I don't have to convince or prove anything to you nor am I interested in doing so . . .
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Of course you don't have to, but you're asked to provide evidence here, George. That's the main point of this web site, discussing evidence.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5lM4u...e_gdata_player
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Those stones have been debunked for a while. The cave where they were supposedly discovered was never identified and none have ever been found in archaeologically relevant sites. Instead, most are sold to tourists and Javier Carbera himself bought his collection from a variety of sources. They are most likely hoaxes made by many hoaxers that are sold for easy cash.

http://www.skepdic.com/icastones.html

The main proponent associated with the Ica Stones is the late Dr. Javier Cabrera (deceased 2001) who is credited with popularizing the stones as well as displaying and caring for them in the museum that was contained within his house in Ica. Cabrera termed these stones “gliptoliths” and posited that they were created by “Gliptolithic Man” who came to Earth from the Pleiades. He first came upon the infamous stones when he was given one for his birthday in the early 1960s. The beautiful stone interested him and he was able to buy more from a farmer in the region. The farmer brought Cabrera more and more stones but would not reveal how he was making them, eventually leading Cabrera to become convinced of the authenticity of the stones.

As the Ica Stones gained international popularity, the Peruvian government was forced to crack down on the law governing huaqueros (grave robbers) and those who sell antiquities on the black market. As a result the farmer was arrested, faced imprisonment but avoided jail by eventually admitting to being the one to create the numerous Ica Stones.
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This looks rather interesting . . .

http://www.philipcoppens.com/baian_kara_ula.html
"The Strange Stone Discs of Baian-Kara-Ula

Unearthed from a remote mountain cave in 1938, these grooved stone discs defied translation until 1962. Researchers claim the discs tell an astounding story of alien visitors who survived their spaceship’s crash-landing in China 12,000 years ago.

Philip Coppens"
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Dan Wilson said:
So you're suggesting some ancient civilization made this bell, the bell got buried, and the trees and life around it were turned into coal over time yet the extreme pressure allowed the bell to survive without being disfigured? Right. And that's after you trust that Mr. Anderson found it the way he says he did. Even if he did, it could have been a kind of coal slurry. This article, which discusses a similar case, explains how it can happen.

http://paleo.cc/paluxy/ironpot.htm
Click to expand...

George B said:
As to the aspect of the account which could invalidate it even if the workers were not intentionally lying, let us consider the following. In a mining environment, it is common to find puddles saturated with particles of whatever material was being mined. If a man-made object falls into such a sediment-laden slurry, the sediment will often consolidate around it. Over a period of years this sediment can dry and harden considerably, forming a concretion like structure resembling a piece of the original formation.
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So they are putting forward a theory to explain it away?

Do they also put forward another theory to explain:

http://manvsarchaeology.wordpress.com/2012/02/01/creation-x-files-part-1/
The nuclear activation analysis revealed that the bell contains a strange mix of metals, different from any known modern alloy, with an unusual mixture including copper, zinc, tin, arsenic, iodine, and selenium. While it is brass, it is not the brass alloy that has been used by our civilization since at least the rise of the Sumerian culture some six thousand years ago.
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