Debunked: Ancient Aliens

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scombrid said:
Ever heard of travertine?

There's a nature conservancy property in Virginia that I visited when I was taking wetlands ecology in college. A creek emerges from a cavern in limestone. Limestone has precipitated out enough to make a waterfall. Tree branshes that fall in become encased in rock. You should have asked to cut the handle in half.

There are plenty of creeks in Tennessee with a really high calcium carbonate such that is precipitates out onto objects in the water. I don't see any indication that you or anyone else took any steps to see if the handle was "fossilized" or covered in concretion.
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At ten years old I hardy had the capacity to accomplish a thorough scientific analysis . . .
 
Mick said:
How is "fake or concretion" not an explanation? All you need is an explanation that fits, you don't need to know which one fits.

See, with most mysterious things, we don't know how they ended up that way, however we have several reasonable explanations. But somehow the more wistful amongst us take the inability to know for sure as evidence that a new entity must be brought in to explain the phenomena.

"We don't know which of several possibile explanations is correct, so Aliens" - that's a fallacy.

http://evolutionwiki.org/wiki/A_petrified_hammer_was_found_in_Cretaceous_rocks


An iron hammer with wooden handle was found embedded in rock in Cretaceous sediments (or Ordovician, by some accounts) near London, Texas. The enclosing rock contains Lower Cretaceous fossils.


  1. The hammer is not petrified, it is encased in stone. This makes it a concretion instead of a true fossil. That means someone lost his hammer in a hole or empty space that filled up with sediment, then the sediment was cemented together, forming the concretion, whereupon the concretion came loose from the surrounding matrix and was ultimately found by Carl Baugh. Scientists are well aware that concretions can form in only a few years, and that they can include fossils from older sediments.
  2. The claim that it was found in Cretaceous rocks is unsupported. In fact, different accounts place Baugh's hammer in different sediments, including Ordovician, and Devonian layers, as well as Cretaceous. In actuality, the hammer was found loose, not embedded in any rock strata. Baugh has repeatedly refused to have actual scientific dating methods applied to the hammer or the rock. As such, until he actually allows his hammer to be verifiably tested, he can not legitimately claim that it is "old." He has no justification at all for claiming it is Cretaceous just because some nearby rocks were Cretaceous anymore than me finding a warm bag of french fries in a sixty year old building proves french fries can stay fresh for sixty years.
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Funny . . . at ten years old I did not even consider ETs as a possibility but I knew conventional explanations were not available . . .
 
George B said:
At ten years old I hardy had the capacity to accomplish a thorough scientific analysis . . .
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All you had to do was crack it open or dip it in acid for a spell.

Why didn't the person passing the hammer around take more steps to verify that the handle was "fossilized" through and through?
 
scombrid said:
I'll be damned if I can find any verification of such accounts.
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Brass Bell in Coal
In 1944, as a ten year old boy, Newton Anderson dropped a lump of coal in his basement and found that it contained this bell inside. The bituminous coal that was mined near his house in Upshur County West Virginia is supposed to be about 300 million years old! What is a brass bell with an iron clapper doing in coal ascribed to the Carboniferous Period? According to Norm Sharbaugh’s book Ammunition (which includes several “coal anecdotes”) the bell is an antediluvian artifact.
The Institute for Creation Research had the bell submitted to the lab at the University of Oklahoma. According to the Institute, the bell was delivered for analysis by the nuclear activation method.The nuclear activation analysis revealed that the bell contains a strange mix of metals, different from any known modern alloy, with an unusual mixture including copper, zinc, tin, arsenic, iodine, and selenium. While it is brass, it is not the brass alloy that has been used by our civilization since at least the rise of the Sumerian culture some six thousand years ago.
Genesis 4:22 states that Tubal-Cain was “an instructor of every artificer in brass and iron…” Perhaps when his civilization came to an end in the flood, this bell was buried with a mass of vegetation that became coal and ended up thousands of years later in Newt Anderson’s coal bin. The bell was prominently featured in the 1992 CBS docudrama production called Ancient Secrets of the Bible and is now part of the Genesis Park collection. Later on, Newton Anderson spent a great deal of time researching the demon atop the bell. He discovered similarities to the Babylonian Southwest Wind Demon and the Hindu deity Garuda. Garuda is sometimes depicted on top of bells, as is the Egyptian Isis. Demonic worship seems to take on similar forms in various cultures (like the Venus figurines from disparate lost cultures and the ancient fascination with pyramids), which doesn’t necessitate that they were culturally related. At our request, Mr. Anderson was examined by an expert polygraph specialist to further validate his claims.http://manvsarchaeology.wordpress.com/2012/02/01/creation-x-files-part-1/
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scombrid said:
All you had to do was crack it open or dip it in acid for a spell.

Why didn't the person passing the hammer around take more steps to verify that the handle was "fossilized" through and through?
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Your asking children from one of the poorest regions of the US in 1950s to act as though they had sophistication and resources . . . was not going to happen . . .
 
George B said:
Your asking children from one of the poorest regions of the US in 1950s to act as though they had sophistication and resources . . . was not going to happen . . .
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That is pretty much my point. With all the hucksters from snake oil salesmen to evangelist "missionaries" that were plying their trade in the hills in the middle 20th century, I'm not apt to take an annecdote about a fossilized hammer handle as indicative of anything special. Hoax or travertine concretion are more reasonable explanations than aliens or Noah's Flood.
 
George B said:
I didn't say it was of ET origin. . . however, it is unexplainable IMO winthin a rational or traditional context . . .
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Okay fair enough, but if it cannot be explained historically, biblically or scientifically then what other way is there to explain it?
 
Hell, the hill people would make stuff up just to screw with outsiders.

In 1944, as a ten year old boy, Newton Anderson dropped a lump of coal in his basement and found that it contained this bell inside.
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Sure he did.
 
scombrid said:
That is pretty much my point. With all the hucksters from snake oil salesmen to evangelist "missionaries" that were plying their trade in the hills in the middle 20th century, I'm not apt to take an annecdote about a fossilized hammer handle as indicative of anything special. Hoax or travertine concretion are more reasonable explanations than aliens or Noah's Flood.
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These were children that found it . . . owned it and were showing their friends . . . I don't remember any reference to any adult that was ever involved with it . . .
 
scombrid said:
Hell, the hill people would make stuff up just to screw with outsiders.



Sure he did.
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I am a hill person . . . and I think I can vouch for the people . . . they are as honest as one would care to find elsewhere . . .
 
Soulfly said:
Okay fair enough, but if it cannot be explained historically, biblically or scientifically then what other way is there to explain it?
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I cannot say for certain . . . I rather think there is a possibility we are only one of several civilizations that have inhabited this planet . . .
 
scombrid said:
So how did you rule out concretion again?
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I had in my possession a piece of petrified wood . . . possibly form Arizona . . . and knew of its qualities . . . the handle IMO exhibited these same qualities including hardness, resistance to being scratched and showed wood grain and texture as I remember . . .
 
George B said:
I had in my possession a piece of petrified wood . . . possibly form Arizona . . . and knew of its qualities . . . the handle IMO exhibited these same qualities including hardness, resistance to being scratched and showed wood grain and texture as I remember . . .
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If it looks like a duck!
 
Soulfly said:
Civilizations that originated from where?
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From previous human habitation . . . civilizations rise and decline . . . are destroyed by human or natural forces and disappear except for rare evidence . . . for example the possible settlements deep (if I remember correctly) below the surface of the Black Sea . . . http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2000/12/122800blacksea.html
Off the coast of northern Turkey, 311 feet (95 meters) below the Black Sea, explorer Robert Ballard has discovered remains of an ancient structure that was apparently flooded in a deluge of biblical proportions. The find may lend credence to a theory that a Black Sea flood gave rise to the Noah story and other flood legends.
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George B said:
From previous human habitation . . . civilizations rise and decline . . . are destroyed by human or natural forces and disappear except for rare evidence . . . for example the possible settlements 700 feet (if I remember correctly) below the surface of the Black Sea . . .
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Anything originating from earth would be able to be explained historically, biblically and scientifically though. You said there was no way that could be done.

Though I suppose you could explain aliens historically and scientifically and that some would probably try and explain it biblically.
 
Soulfly said:
Anything originating from earth would be able to be explained historically, biblically and scientifically though. You said there was no way that could be done.

Though I suppose you could explain aliens historically and scientifically and that some would probably try and explain it biblically.
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What I was referring to is the present main stream scientific and academic world have no theories which allow a rational explanation for it to exist . . . other than the rapid deposition of calcium carbonate . . . on the hammer and then there is still no explanation for the fossilization of the handle if it were indeed fossilized . . .
 
George B said:
What I was referring to is the present main stream scientific and academic world have no theories which allow a rational explanation for it to exist . . .
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Also just because you couldn't explain it, doesn't mean the main stream scientific and academic world couldn't explain it.
 
Soulfly said:
Also just because you couldn't explain it, doesn't mean the main stream scientific and academic world couldn't explain it.
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OK . . . how would they explain the hammer if it indeed had a fossilized handle . . . ?
 
Soulfly said:
That someone made a handle out of fossilized wood.
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So you then go back to the assumption of fraud . . . sure anything can be fraud . . . including cold fusion, the Piltdown Man, etc. . . . we are not talking about sophisticated scientists here . . . we are talking about children who found an item in the environment and countryside they played in . . .
 
George B said:
So you then go back to the assumption of fraud . . . sure anything can be fraud . . . including cold fusion, the Piltdown Man, etc. . . . we are not talking about sophisticated scientists here . . . we are talking about children who found an item in the environment and countryside they played in . . .
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I don't make the assumption of fraud, I just don't make the assumption that man could not have carved it.
 
Soulfly said:
I don't make the assumption of fraud, I just don't make the assumption that man could not have carved it.
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So you feel a rational explanation would be someone in the past used a rock like substance that had the texture and grain of wood (i.e. petrified wood) to be a handle for a geologic hammer . . . as opposed to wood, antler, etc. . . .?
 
George B said:
So you feel a rational explanation would be someone in the past used a rock like substance that had the texture and grain of wood (i.e. petrified wood) to be a handle for a geologic hammer . . . as opposed to wood, antler, etc. . . .?
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Correct! At least that could be one explanation.
 
Soulfly said:
Correct! At least that could be one explanation.
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I would accept the possibility my memory of the item was not as accurate as I thought over the use of a rock type substance as a handle . . . I on the other hand have very little problem accepting the possibility of lost technology and previous civilizations inhabiting the earth . . .
 
But in ancient times, the people who lived here carved on the petrified wood, chiseled messages on the rocks, and fashioned tools and weapons from the Rainbow Forest.
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http://books.google.com/books?id=p6...fied wood carvings from ancient times&f=false

So you think that this Ancient civilization had the capability to create an ax with a metal (sorry forgot if you specified what type of metal) head, yet didn't have the ability to carve petrified wood?
 
Soulfly said:
But in ancient times, the people who lived here carved on the petrified wood, chiseled messages on the rocks, and fashioned tools and weapons from the Rainbow Forest.
Content from External Source
http://books.google.com/books?id=p6...fied wood carvings from ancient times&f=false

So you think that this Ancient civilization had the capability to create an ax with a metal (sorry forgot if you specified what type of metal) head, yet didn't have the ability to carve petrified wood?
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It appeared to be a modern geologic hammer with a steel head . . . embedded in a piece of weathered limestone common to the area with a fossilized wooden handle . . . could primitive cultures carve stone, etc . . . sure. . . would they use stone when wood was available to make a handle for a rock hammer . . . I highly doubt it . . .
 
George B said:
It appeared to be a modern geologic hammer with a steel head . . . embedded in a piece of weathered limestone common to the area with a fossilized wooden handle . . . could primitive cultures carve stone, etc . . . sure. . . would they use stone when wood was available to make a handle for a rock hammer . . . I highly doubt it . . .
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Remember tools in ancient times were not always just about function. Sometimes they represented status.
Did it look like this?
http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/London_Hammer
 
George B said:
It appeared to be a modern geologic hammer with a steel head . . . embedded in a piece of weathered limestone common to the area with a fossilized wooden handle . . . could primitive cultures carve stone, etc . . . sure. . . would they use stone when wood was available to make a handle for a rock hammer . . . I highly doubt it . . .
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Is it a metal hammer or a rock hammer?


A metal rock hammer?
 
George, how big was this hammer? Could it have been carried around, like say on a belt, or maybe a little larger and carried on the back? Was it just too big to be carried practically? Often times things like hammers or ax were worn like a badge, some cultures still wear traditional knives or swords in the same way. This could account for the unusual handle. Instead of who has the nicest car, it was who has the nicest hammer.
 
Soulfly said:
George, how big was this hammer? Could it have been carried around, like say on a belt, or maybe a little larger and carried on the back? Was it just too big to be carried practically? Often times things like hammers or ax were worn like a badge, some cultures still wear traditional knives or swords in the same way. This could account for the unusual handle. Instead of who has the nicest car, it was who has the nicest hammer.
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It appeared to be the size of a modern carpenter's hammer just shaped like a modern geologic hammer . . . it did not look primitive in design at all . . .
 
George B said:
It appeared to be the size of a modern carpenters hammer just shaped like a modern geologic hammer . . . it did not look primitive in design at all . . .
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I'm confused, you think it might be from an ancient civilization but from one that was advanced enough to make it look modern?
 
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