George B
Extinct but not forgotten Staff Member
If it was a crime how many criminals want to be caught ??
WTC 7 (Building 7)
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hiper
Active Member
Yeah clearing crime scene took priority.
Looks to me that collapse like a controlled demo due to fire is the esoteric explanation.
It feels good saying 'conspiracy theorists' doesn't it.
We need to demonstrate? And NIST is somehow exempt from this burden?
Mick for the 1000 time NIST did not investigate the dust nor the steel...by ignoring these key avenues they can't possibly scientifically demonstrate fire has done it.
Cairenn
Senior Member.
We have a reasonable explanation that fits the evidence and yet some folks want to come up with imaginary weapons, and with scenarios that they can't even begin to explain how they could have been done. But they criticize the official report for NOT investigating their theories.
jomper
Inactive Member
You have an animated gif that cannot be verified and a forensic report that analysed nothing from the building at all.
George B
Extinct but not forgotten Staff Member
Maybe because it took how many years to formulate their theory?????? If it was that hard to figure it out maybe they should have thrown on the possibility of Ancient Aliens . . .
You have an extremely detailed 797 page report, that provided a very reasonable analysis and explanation of events.
You can't just toss out all 797 pages because they did not perform some specific tests you wanted.
https://www.metabunk.org/files/NCSTAR_1-9_WTC7_unlocked.pdf
And considerably more:
http://wtcdata.nist.gov/index2.htm
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Maybe because it took how many years to formulate their theory?????? If it was that hard to figure it out maybe they should have thrown on the possibility of Ancient Aliens . . .
What do you think would have been the least suspicious amount of time for them to spend on the investigation?
George B
Extinct but not forgotten Staff Member
Seems they didn't start until the Truth Movement started to get traction . . . however, something less than it did . . . when was their final version . . .? For WTC 7, First one in 2006?? . . . I can't remember . . . I am on my phone in a slow area . . . so I can't pull it up . . .
jomper
Inactive Member
Yeah, the specific tests of analysing... oooh... any physical evidence from the building at all.
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George B
Extinct but not forgotten Staff Member
Hmmm . . . 2008 . . . Me thinks 7 years is a bit much . . . just saying . .
. . . Seems they didn't start until 2005 . . . that is when they completed the WTC1&2 study . . . no wonder evidence was missing . . . how can anyone think that is reasonable? No wonder people started to fill in the blanks . . . Human Nature . . . Nature abhors a vacuum and all that . . . NIST Releases Final WTC 7 Investigation Report
For Immediate Release: November 25, 2008
http://www.nist.gov/el/wtc7final_112508.cfm
The National Institute of Standards and Technology (NIST) last week released its final report on the Sept. 11, 2001, collapse of the 47-story World Trade Center building 7 (WTC 7) in New York City. The final report is strengthened by clarifications and supplemental text suggested by organizations and individuals worldwide in response to the draft WTC 7 report, released for public comment on Aug. 21, but the revisions did not alter the investigation team’s major findings and recommendations, which include identification of fire as the primary cause for the building’s failure.
Cairenn
Senior Member.
Re investigations happen when there is new data to analyze. There is no new data in 9/11 and quite frankly it would be a waste of money to do it. And the 'truther's wouldn't be satisfied then. Most of the folks in the US and the world don't really care. If they did, then the truthers could get them to all chip in a 5 spot and you could pay for it.
I would bet money that if the investigation had been done quickly that the SAME folks would be complaining that they didn't spend enough time on it.
I would bet money that if the investigation had been done quickly that the SAME folks would be complaining that they didn't spend enough time on it.
George B
Extinct but not forgotten Staff Member
Like it hasn't been done before . . . Hmmmmm . . . JFK Assassination Investigations
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Assassination_of_John_F._Kennedy
Warren Commission
The Warren Commission presents its report to President Johnson
Main article: Warren Commission
The President's Commission on the Assassination of President Kennedy, known unofficially as the Warren Commission, was established on November 29, 1963, by President Lyndon Johnson to investigate the assassination.[108] Its 888-page final report was presented to President Johnson on September 24, 1964,[109] and made public three days later.[110] It concluded that Lee Harvey Oswald acted alone in the killing of President Kennedy and the wounding of Texas Governor John Connally,[111] and that Jack Ruby also acted alone in the murder of Oswald.[112] The Commission's findings have since proven controversial and been both challenged and supported by later studies.
Ramsey Clark Panel
In 1968, a panel of four medical experts appointed by Attorney General Ramsey Clark met in Washington, D.C. to examine various photographs, X-ray films, documents, and other evidence pertaining to the death of President Kennedy. The Clark Panel determined that President Kennedy was struck by two bullets fired from above and behind him, one of which traversed the base of the neck on the right side without striking bone and the other of which entered the skull from behind and destroyed its upper right side.[115]
Rockefeller Commission
The United States President's Commission on CIA activities within the United States was set up under President Gerald Ford in 1975 to investigate the activities of the CIA within the United States. The commission was led by Vice-
President Nelson Rockefeller, and is sometimes referred to as the Rockefeller Commission. Part of the commission's work dealt with the Kennedy assassination, specifically the head snap as seen in the Zapruder film (first shown to the general public in 1975), and the possible presence of E. Howard Hunt and Frank Sturgis in Dallas.[116] The commission concluded that neither Hunt nor Sturgis were in Dallas at the time of the assassination.[117]
Church Committee
Church Committee is the common term referring to the United States Senate Select Committee to Study Governmental Operations with Respect to Intelligence Activities, a U.S. Senate committee chaired by Senator Frank Church, to investigate the illegal intelligence gathering by the Central Intelligence Agency (CIA) and Federal Bureau of Investigation (FBI) after the Watergate incident. It also investigated the CIA and FBI conduct relating to the JFK assassination.
The Church Committee is the United States Senate Select Committee to Study Governmental Operations with Respect to Intelligence Activities, a U.S. Senate committee chaired by Senator Frank Church (D-ID) in 1975. A precursor to the U.S. Senate Select Committee on Intelligence, the committee investigated intelligence gathering for illegality by the Central Intelligence Agency (CIA),National Security Agency (NSA) and Federal Bureau of Investigation (FBI) after certain activities had been revealed by the Watergateaffair. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Church_Committee
United States House Select Committee on Assassinations
As a result of increasing public pressure caused partly by the finding of the Church Committee, the United States House of Representatives Select Committee on Assassinations (HSCA) was established in 1976 to investigate the assassinations of President Kennedy and Martin Luther King, Jr.. and the shooting of Governor George Wallace. The committee was both controversial and divided amongst themselves. The first chairman, Thomas N. Downing of Virginia retired in January 1977 and was replaced by Henry B. Gonzalez on February 2, 1977. Gonzalez sought to replace Chief Counsel Richard Sprague. Eventually both Gonzalez and Sprague resigned and Louis Stokes became the new chairman. G. Robert Blakey was then appointed Chief Counsel and his deputy Robert K. Tanenbaum resigned soon afterwards.
Assassination Records Review Board
The Assassination Records Review Board was not commissioned to make any findings or conclusions. Its purpose was to release documents to the public in order to allow the public to draw its own conclusions. From 1992 until 1998, the Assassination Records Review Board gathered and unsealed about 60,000 documents, consisting of over 4 million pages.[133][134] All remaining documents are to be released by 2017.
George B
Extinct but not forgotten Staff Member
Dallas is not the only place in the US . . . people in the rest of the country obviously thought it desirable . . . and many feel the same about 911 . . .
Cairenn
Senior Member.
Then were are they all? On a few conspiracy sites that is where. Where are petitions to Congress, the news exposure of folks wanting a new investigation? I see ones for investigating the stories of the WMD in Iraq and Benghazi but not for 9/11.
Why don't you see how many folks would be willing to donate money to such a cause? You wouldn't have to collect any money, just ask how much folks would spend toward it. Then remember that a lot of them will not donate.
Why don't you see how many folks would be willing to donate money to such a cause? You wouldn't have to collect any money, just ask how much folks would spend toward it. Then remember that a lot of them will not donate.
George B
Extinct but not forgotten Staff Member
Hmmmm . . . I think the question on that is mixed . . . http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/9/11_Truth_movement
Adherents of the 9/11 Truth movement come from diverse social backgrounds.[1][22][25] The movement draws adherents from people of diverse political beliefs including liberals, conservatives, and libertarians.[3][19][25]
Lev Grossman of Time magazine has stated that support for the 9/11 Truth movement is not a "fringe phenomenon", but "a mainstream political reality."[21] However, others, such as Ben Smith of Politico and the Minneapolis Star Tribune have stated that the movement has been "relegated to the fringe".[26][27] The Washington Post editorial staff went further describing the movement as "lunatic fringe."[28]Mark Fenster, a University of Florida law professor and author of the book Conspiracy Theories: Secrecy and Power in American Culture, says that "the amount of organisation" of the movement is significantly stronger than the organization of the movement related to doubts about the official account of the assassination of former United States President John F. Kennedy,[3] though this is likely the result of new media technologies, such as online social networks, blogs, etc.
jomper
Inactive Member
To begin with there is computer sim data that is not being released for verification. The only response I've seen to this from "debunkers" is along the lines of "It's just not going to be released, so stop going on about it because it's not important". That's a terrible argument and not a rational basis for not verifying what has been presented as science, so it seems this point cannot be debunked.
I don't personally want the
to investigate the theories you incessantly tell "truthers" they must subscribe to, I want the public millions already spent to be given proper value by being treated as credible scientific research and properly verified as such.
You mean like the 80,000 New Yorkers who had their democratic call for an independent enquiry denied through legal technicalities?
Jazzy
Closed Account
When you find the undetectable means, I'm sure you will be able to call for it. You aren't looking?
You just didn't show the lawyers enough money. You weren't paying?
Don't mess about. Work with George, raise the money, and go...
jomper
Inactive Member
Again with the basic ignorance of the scientific method. If you're NIST you create a theory first ('it was obviously the fire that did it") and then ignore the troublesome physical evidence accordingly.
Real science examines all the data and all the physical evidence and comes up with theories afterwards. But I don't expect you to understand that: you can't even get your head around the simple point I was making about verification.
jomper
Inactive Member
More than enough to be a legitimate petition. If you follow the link I provided you will see that it foresaw and attempted to deal with the technicalities involved.
Cairenn
Senior Member.
I did and it tell me much. Nothing about why they can regather the signatures and resubmit them in accordance with the rules. That was from 2009, they have had 4 years to do it properly. That still doesn't answer my question of the PERCENTAGE needed to get something on the ballot. Can you post a link to that?
I get a little tired of the 'victim mentality' I see in CTs. If others have to follow the law, then they should also.
I get a little tired of the 'victim mentality' I see in CTs. If others have to follow the law, then they should also.
jomper
Inactive Member
Then you didn't look very carefully. The required number was 30,000 signatures -- you do the math.
Some people through history have challenged unjust laws, even though people like you have accepted them without question.
You'll be saying the NCST Act provides rational grounds for NIST to withhold scientific data next. Lol!
Cairenn
Senior Member.
This is the entire article on the link you posted. Please point out in it where the figure of 30,000 is mentioned.
Did you post the wrong link?
Once Again, The Will of the Voters Is Denied
October 9, 2009
Yesterday afternoon, Justice Edward Lehner of the State Supreme Court rubberstamped Referee Louis Crespo’s recommendation that the decision to establish a local commission to investigate the events of September 11th not be put before the voters on November 3rd.
After showing interest in weighing both sides’ arguments in the hearing, the Judge’s short decision gives no indication of having considered the arguments put forth in the Petitioners’ memorandum of law, nor any acknowledgement of the need for a new investigation, which the City of New York callously dismissed as “irrelevant”.
On a dark day for democracy, the patriotic call for answers by hundreds of 9/11 families, first responders and survivors has been stifled, and the will of the people of New York City once again denied.
Judge Lehner ruled that modifying the petition to make it “legally permissible” would result in it being “inconsistent with the law sought by the signatories of the Petition” despite the fact that all 80,000 signatories agreed by signing the Petition that “If any provision of this law is held to be unconstitutional or invalid for any reason, the remaining provisions shall be in no manner affected thereby but shall remain in full force and effect.”
The deadline for inclusion on the ballot falls just before the election, making it possible to appeal Judge Lehner’s decision. NYC CAN is weighing all options and will make an announcement early next week on this issue, as well as on how it will be moving forward on other fronts. Regardless of the outcome in court, the quest for answers continues full throttle. This fight is only the beginning.
hemi
Senior Member.
Cairenn, did you hear that? People like you accept unjust laws without reason! What were you thinking?
Lol indeed.
jomper
Inactive Member
It was a link to a website. The information you're asking for is there on the home page if you'd only bother to look.
hiper
Active Member
Well we seem to be circling round the core issue here aren't we?
NIST hiding behind it's own inverstigation instead of standing by it.
I think the 3000 deaths care little for you demonstrating diplomacy when due diligence on NIST's part was all that was needed.
My conclusion is that NIST ignored basing their conclusions on scientfically investigated evidence.. the dust and the steel.
Which is obviously what happenend with NIST doing the investigating.
How could they ever come up with anything that didn't fit the government terrorist narrative.
George B
Extinct but not forgotten Staff Member
After sleeping on it I want to add a fifth option. . .
5) It happened something like NIST Reported but evidence is being avoided/suppressed that would be or would have been very embarrassing to a powerful people or group . . . and could be or could have been revealed if a complete and proper investigation had been accomplished . . .
George B
Extinct but not forgotten Staff Member
Money cannot make the Government release the data for the simulations or allow a trusted disinterested third party expert review and validate their findings . . . that is the will of the government to do the proper thing . . . heck people want the government to pay for everything . . . why should they pay for something the government should have already done . . .
Chuck
Active Member
[...] Stop with the false magnanimity. Does it really make you feel good pretending you care more for the 3,000 dead than those who disagree with you? I have relatives that lived through that horrific day and they have friends whose lives were forever snuffed out, so don't play the bleeding heart card.
You've not provided a shred of proof that NIST was errant. This thread is going nowhere.
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