House Oversight Hearing on UAPs - July 26, 2023

I'd imagine murdering people to maintain the secret would also fall into the category of unlawful/illegal actions.
He claimed threats against himself and others, and claimed some had been killed in UFO related incidents, but I don't recall him claiming anyone had been murdered. But if that happened and it can be proven in a court of law, then that would be a criminal act.
 
He claimed threats against himself and others, and claimed some had been killed in UFO related incidents, but I don't recall him claiming anyone had been murdered. But if that happened and it can be proven in a court of law, then that would be a criminal act.

UFO related incidents as well as to keep the secret from getting out. It goes without saying these are all just allegations that would all have to be proven in court, but if we're keeping track of illegal activities he's alleging are taking place, killing people to keep these things a secret are obviously worth adding to that list.
 
Can or may they then also not use any of the information for use in their work in Congress?
I'm thinking they can't just spell what they learn out loud, but if the procedure is to be more than just a facade of democracy at work, then they should be able to propose actions based on what they learned.
 
Looking at this tweet from Anna Paulina Luna, does she say this with in mind that people will be watching that have never heard of if before? Or does she claim that a lot of new info will be talked about today? I mean, other than talking about stuff, we will not see new video or photos. Unless I am wrong here.

Screenshot 2023-07-26 at 09.46.19.png
Well, maybe some of us didn't know the Pentagon has been "losing" billions of the taxpayers' money (per Burchett). Other than that I think the Congresspersons could have learned more from the "exclusive interviews" already out there in Internetland than from this hearing.
 
I'm thinking they can't just spell what they learn out loud, but if the procedure is to be more than just a facade of democracy at work, then they should be able to propose actions based on what they learned.
and maybe pass legislation. etc.
 
UFO related incidents as well as to keep the secret from getting out. It goes without saying these are all just allegations that would all have to be proven in court, but if we're keeping track of illegal activities he's alleging are taking place, killing people to keep these things a secret are obviously worth adding to that list.
This is what irks me. More claims, just as much evidence. This whole hearing just made the whole thing more sensational, rather than clarifying anything. They even put the NYT article on a pedestal... Ffs...
 
Can or may they then also not use any of the information for use in their work in Congress?
The answer to you initially question is they cannot legally divulge any classified information they learn in the performance of their official duties as long as the information is still classified.

The answer to this second question is a bit more complicated. A member who learns classified information as a function of his/her official duties cannot disseminate that information within Congress to those without an established need to know within the established confines of their position. On the other hand, a member could possibly act on classified information learned, such as proposing legislation or supporting budget allocations, to address something they learned from classified sources.
 
This is what irks me. More claims, just as much evidence. This whole hearing just made the whole thing more sensational, rather than clarifying anything. They even put the NYT article on a pedestal... Ffs...
and what's with answers like this:

it's a yes or no or 'i dont know' question. about his belief, ie. not classified in anyway

2:06:50
"You say the government is in possession of potentially non-human space craft. Based on your experience and extensive conversations with experts, do you believe our government has made contact with intelligence/extraterrestrial?"

Grush "something i can't discuss in a public setting"

Source: https://youtu.be/KQ7Dw-739VY?t=7612
 
I was supposed to be on NewsNation this morning to provide the skeptical perspective, but they ran out of time. I watched most of the hearing via a zoom call.

Very little new. Probably the most significant thing about the hearing is that it happened at all, and will direct attention and congressional action towards the various issues.

Grusch was kind of frustrating, as he said even less than before, and mostly resorted to SCIF.

Graves was asked about, and described a "fooball-field-sized" UFO over Vandenburg airforce base. Eyewitness accounts only. This sounds highly improbable to me that only a few people noticed it. I need to go over that description again.

Fravor said nothing new that I noticed.

Matt Gaetz, who is a member of the House Armed Services and has higher clearance than Burchett and Luna, talked about seeing a photo and maybe a photo of radar showing an odd craft, and a formation of four craft. Interesting, but just his non-technical impression.
 
and what's with answers like this:

it's a yes or no or 'i dont know' question. about his belief, ie. not classified in anyway

2:06:50
"You say the government is in possession of potentially non-human space craft. Based on your experience and extensive conversations with experts, do you believe our government has made contact with intelligence/extraterrestrial?"

Grush "something i can't discuss in a public setting"

Source: https://youtu.be/KQ7Dw-739VY?t=7612

its like you claimed dead alien bodies and craft are in our possession why is this question an issue of classification lol
 
Some things Grusch said worth noting:

-The information he's gathered comes from at least 40 individuals he interviewed, all either former or currently working in the intelligence community. This at leasts casts doubt on the idea that the info he's gathered just came from public Ufology sources and also that it all just came from the usual circle jerk suspects (Elizondo, Davis, Taylor, etc.)

Nobody has claimed "it all just came from the usual suspects". Just that the usual suspects exert a strong influence on the rest of the believing community whom Grusch has been evidently mingling with both within and without the DoD.

How about looking at it this way:

The U.S. Department of Defense is the largest employer in the world, with over 1.34 million active-duty service members, including soldiers, marines, sailors, airmen, and guardians. DoD also maintains over 778,000 National Guard and reservists, and over 747,000 civilians bringing the total to over 2.87 million employees.

42 % of Americans believe in UFOs and 39 % in ghosts. One in ten Americans report that they have seen a UFO.

If the DoD represents a rough a cross-section of the American society (with the major exception of gender parity) -- and let's keep it conservative and assume only 30 % of DoD personnel believe in UFOs and 20 % in ghosts -- we'd still be left with 861,000 UFO believers and 574,000 ghost-believers. (By the way, in comparison, 22 % of Brits believe in UFOs and 7 % believe having seen one.)

I'm pretty sure there are many, many informal circles of believers, as well as an ample amount of mutual camaraderie, amongst believing active-duty DoD members sharing amongst themselves all manner of rumours as to what they believe the DoD hides, and also their own alleged UFO sightings. Hence I deliberately used the term "gossip corners" and it wasn't really meant in disrespect. In other words, there's no shortage of DoD believers for Grusch to interview. True, hardcore, believers are no doubt a smaller percentage but I would suspect in an organization as huge as the DoD they'd still amount to a significant number of individuals.

We often see what we believe, while certain beliefs (such as UFOs) are culturally and thereby geographically specific. It's essentially the case of confirmation bias meeting folklore affecting human perception and hypothesis-formulation. UFOs are modern Western folklore which is especially pronounced in countries with a considerable percentage of sci-fi enthusiasts, and further reinforced by film, literature and media visibility (some of that visibility being deliberately promoted by the UFO lobby, including financial sponsorships). It's a powerful feedback loop.

If you'd ask the average American "have you ever encountered a djinn?" (the evil spirits in Islamic tradition), I'd wager you'd get a very different ratio of 'believers' as well as 'sightings'. With ghosts you'd likely get a fairly universal one, and so on and so forth.

Long story short: Anecdotes from lots and lots and lots of believers constitutes weak scientific evidence. But since that's about all that ufology has to offer, anecdotes by large numbers of people, anecdotes from people of impeccable service record and high ranking, coupled with blurry pictures and footage, remain the go-to evidence to bring to bear -- though media, through internal communications and even through congressional hearings. And yes, it does convince a lot of people.

Yet all of the above fails to constitute scientifically viable evidence. From the existing body of evidence, UAP footage, radar data and other physical records represent evidence that best lends itself to reliable scientific scrutiny, while not entirely dismissing first person accounts.

However, the low information content and high interpretability of these physical records render them far too open to speculation, poor for scientific verification and ultimately unimpressive as evidence.

That UFO theorization invariably, throughout history until this very moment at the Capitol Hill, concerns itself with low quality evidence, is to be expected from any exercise requiring a lot of speculative latitude.
 
This is what irks me. More claims, just as much evidence. This whole hearing just made the whole thing more sensational, rather than clarifying anything. They even put the NYT article on a pedestal... Ffs...

Well if we want evidence it sounds like the way to get it is to dismantle the entire compartmentalization, hyper-secretive, over-classification intelligence community apparatus that exists, as well as calling people out who tacitly endorse this system by chastising people like Grusch coming forward as being "sanctimonious" and criticizing their view of possessing a "higher calling" as inherently posing a security risk and therefore labeling them as untrustworthy. Examples of this attitude are easy to find around here.

If we want high quality evidence, perhaps we can lay the blame at the individuals who make the sharing of any such evidence a crime punishable by life imprisonment. We can't demand evidence for his claims on one hand while criticizing the actions of Edward Snowden and Chelsea Manning on the other and pretending like national security is the only thing that matters while belittling concerns about accountability and transparency as secondary and tertiary concerns at best.

At this point it's absolutely clear that what keeps Grusch from providing evidence is the imminent threat of life imprisonment if he does so.
 
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Graves was asked about, and described a "fooball-field-sized" UFO over Vandenburg airforce base. Eyewitness accounts only. This sounds highly improbable to me that only a few people noticed it. I need to go over that description again.
Fairly odd that for ages Graves has been going on about squares in spheres and paraphrasing what he remembers of the SA screen from Gimbal but just forgot to mention the red football field sized UFO that appeared over a major US airbase until today.
 
...

At this point it's absolutely clear that what keeps Grusch from providing evidence is the imminent threat of life imprisonment if he does so.
The assumes the existence of the evidence in the first place. I haven't seen anything to indicate that we should give him that level of trust.
 
Well if we want evidence it sounds like the way to get it is to dismantle the entire compartmentalization, hyper-secretive, over-classification intelligence community apparatus that exists, as well as calling people out who tacitly endorse this system by chastising people like Grusch coming forward as being "sanctimonious" and criticizing their view of possessing a "higher calling" as inherently posing a security risk and therefore labeling them as untrustworthy. Examples of this attitude are easy to find around here.

If we want high quality evidence, perhaps we can lay the blame at the individuals who make the sharing of any such evidence a crime punishable by life imprisonment. We can't demand evidence for his claims on one hand while criticizing the actions of Edward Snowden and Chelsea Manning no the other and pretending like national security is the only thing that matters while belittling concerns about accountability and transparency as secondary and tertiary concerns.

At this point it's absolutely clear that what keeps Grusch from providing evidence is the imminent threat of life imprisonment if he does so.

Snowden and Manning had thousands of NSA and military documents they released, that is evidence.

What if the UFO evidence just doesn't exist? How are you going to be satisfied that it doesn't? Rather than just assuming it's being covered up in perpetuity.

Can this negative ever be proven to your satisfaction?

I am asking this question genuinely.
 
Fairly odd that for ages Graves has been going on about squares in spheres and paraphrasing what he remembers of the SA screen from Gimbal but just forgot to mention the red football field sized UFO that appeared over a major US airbase until today.
Wasn't he asked to comment on it today? Maybe he just wasn't confident enough in the event to state it publicly before-hand.
 
At this point it's absolutely clear that what keeps Grusch from providing evidence is the imminent threat of life imprisonment if he does so.
I thought he already experienced drastic reprisal and extended that to friends and family? I'm not buying that argument... his choice is between lawful reprisal and unlawful reprisal. I'd take my chance with spilling the beans...
 
Nobody has claimed "it all just came from the usual suspects". Just that the usual suspects exert a strong influence on the rest of the believing community whom Grusch has been evidently mingling with both within and without the DoD.

How about looking at it this way:

The U.S. Department of Defense is the largest employer in the world, with over 1.34 million active-duty service members, including soldiers, marines, sailors, airmen, and guardians. DoD also maintains over 778,000 National Guard and reservists, and over 747,000 civilians bringing the total to over 2.87 million employees.

42 % of Americans believe in UFOs and 39 % in ghosts. One in ten Americans report that they have seen a UFO.

If the DoD represents a rough a cross-section of the American society (with the major exception of gender parity) -- and let's keep it conservative and assume only 30 % of DoD personnel believe in UFOs and 20 % in ghosts -- we'd still be left with 861,000 UFO believers and 574,000 ghost-believers. (By the way, in comparison, 22 % of Brits believe in UFOs and 7 % believe having seen one.)

I'm pretty sure there are many, many informal circles of believers, as well as an ample amount of mutual camaraderie, amongst believing active-duty DoD members sharing amongst themselves all manner of rumours as to what they believe the DoD hides, and also their own alleged UFO sightings. Hence I deliberately used the term "gossip corners" and it wasn't really meant in disrespect. In other words, there's no shortage of DoD believers for Grusch to interview. True, hardcore, believers are no doubt a smaller percentage but I would suspect in an organization as huge as the DoD they'd still amount to a significant number of individuals.

We often see what we believe, while certain beliefs (such as UFOs) are culturally and thereby geographically specific. It's essentially the case of confirmation bias meeting folklore affecting human perception and hypothesis-formulation. UFOs are modern Western folklore which is especially pronounced in countries with a considerable percentage of sci-fi enthusiasts, and further reinforced by film, literature and media visibility (some of that visibility being deliberately promoted by the UFO lobby, including financial sponsorships). It's a powerful feedback loop.

If you'd ask the average American "have you ever encountered a djinn?" (the evil spirits in Islamic tradition), I'd wager you'd get a very different ratio of 'believers' as well as 'sightings'. With ghosts you'd likely get a fairly universal one, and so on and so forth.

Long story short: Anecdotes from lots and lots and lots of believers constitutes weak scientific evidence. But since that's about all that ufology has to offer, anecdotes by large numbers of people, anecdotes from people of impeccable service record and high ranking, coupled with blurry pictures and footage, remain the go-to evidence to bring to bear -- though media, through internal communications and even through congressional hearings. And yes, it does convince a lot of people.

Yet all of the above fails to constitute scientifically viable evidence. From the existing body of evidence, UAP footage, radar data and other physical records represent evidence that best lends itself to reliable scientific scrutiny, while not entirely dismissing first person accounts.

However, the low information content and high interpretability of these physical records render them far too open to speculation, poor for scientific verification and ultimately unimpressive as evidence.

That UFO theorization invariably, throughout history until this very moment at the Capitol Hill, concerns itself with low quality evidence, is to be expected from any exercise requiring a lot of speculative latitude.

I don't need a lecture about what constitutes good and bad scientific evidence. I've never claimed anything he has told us is rationally compelling evidence that should sway any reasonable person to believe in aliens.

However, a) this isn't a scientific conference. We keep holding a committee hearing like this to the same standards we expect from a scientific conference. Many things were discussed in this committee such as the need for a centralized data collection mechanism by which pilots (specifically commercial ones but military ones as well) can report sightings. This meeting lacked focus, but many of the issues discussed are issues that require much lower types of evidence that the issues most of us here are *really* interested in. And it just so happens that the standards of evidence we require for *those* claims are literally illegal for him to provide.

So I'm hoping to see more people actively calling for structural changes to the intelligence community hyper compartmentalization and hyper secretive apparatus so that the kind of evidence we want, if it exists, will actually finally be legal for someone like him to provide.

Given that at least one poster around here outright confirmed that if he had ever worked in any of these programs himself, he'd take the secret to his grave out of some ridiculous sense of obligation and "integrity" to the government he swore an allegiance to, I'm not holding my breath that we'll be seeing many calls for reform here.

It's quite amazing to see someone criticize Grusch for not having/providing any evidence for any of his extraordinary claims, but simultaneously turn around and say "If I were in his position, I'd never disclose any of this either."
 
Grusch was kind of frustrating, as he said even less than before, and mostly resorted to SCIF.
I may be misremembering, but wasn't his previous talk about reprisal much more toned down? I don't remember him even hinting at it being drastic, though my memory sucks, it's worth a review.
 
The assumes the existence of the evidence in the first place. I haven't seen anything to indicate that we should give him that level of trust.

Fair enough. I should have worded it as "from providing what evidence he has". He was quite specific about the specific names and locations of programs and people involved in the things he's alleging. He just can't share any of that publicly but repeatedly said "I have shared that in my 11 hours of testimony with the senate, and can share more about this in a private session."

If people here want to equate "I can't share that publicly" with "that just means he doesn't have shit" then idk what to tell ya. That's just an ideological blinder getting in the way, not any kind of reasonable skepticism I'd ever endorse.
 
I'm amazed none of the questioners asked about basic shapes or sizes of the craft or the morphology of the alien bodies (did they have two arms & legs, two eyes etc.) Surely even if Grusch hasn't seen these things directly he has this basic knowledge and could have characterised them without without having to go to a SCIF.
 
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So what now for disclosure? I'm assuming the take away by the ET hypothesis believers is that the evidence is being withheld. It's been three years since the military videos came out, Mick interviewed someone two years ago about whether or not a similar hearing would finally disclose anything. So will be have another whistle blower in a year or so and go through the same dance again?
 
This meeting lacked focus, but many of the issues discussed are issues that require much lower types of evidence that the issues most of us here are *really* interested in. And it just so happens that the standards of evidence we require for *those* claims are literally illegal for him to provide.

Assuming such evidence exists. You're willing to assume it based on anecdotes by former officials of rank. You can certainly do that. But it's still naive and unscientific. And this is not snark. Metabunk is primarily concerned with finding and examining hard evidence to support anomalous claims.

Suppose for a moment that the big picture we've painted here about the influential UFO lobby, feedback loops, and modern folklore affecting observations by even non-believers let alone believers, is true, and that there really is nothing more to it. Wouldn't it then be OBVIOUS that the DoD simply has nothing to hide, and therefore nothing more convincing to offer. But they'd still be damned for coverup.
 
hyper secretive apparatus so that the kind of evidence we want, if it exists, will actually finally be legal for someone like him to provide.

Given that at least one poster around here outright confirmed that if he had ever worked in any of these programs himself, he'd take the secret to his grave out of some ridiculous sense of obligation and "integrity" to the government he swore an allegiance to, I'm not holding my breath that we'll be seeing many calls for reform here

you do realize that in order for YOU to see the stuff you want to see as a member of the public, that means China and Russia will see it all too...right?

They dont hide stuff because they dont trust the normal American public, they hide stuff so our enemies dont get the info.
 
Snowden and Manning had thousands of NSA and military documents they released, that is evidence.

What if the UFO evidence just doesn't exist? How are you going to be satisfied that it doesn't? Rather than just assuming it's being covered up in perpetuity.

Can this negative ever be proven to your satisfaction?

I am asking this question genuinely.

You're asking me the kinds of questions you'd ask a UFO believer.

I'd personally be satisfied that no evidence exists if folks who have had access to his 11 hour testimony can come forward and say "We followed up on all the alleged evidence Grusch presented in his testimony and found no credibility to any of his allegations."

I'd trust Dr. Kirkpatrick if he came forward and made such a statement, but at this point we don't know if what he's looked at is the same stuff Grusch has looked at. I'd also trust the word of the senators privy to the information Grusch shared if they came forward and made this statement.

It doesn't "prove" there's no evidence, but proof is a ridiculous standard that only applies to math and logic. Them coming forward would be good enough for me.

I'm not sure why you think your question would be that difficult to answer unless you're under the mistaken assumption that I'm a Ufologist.
 
I'd trust Dr. Kirkpatrick if he came forward and made such a statement, but at this point we don't know if what he's looked at is the same stuff Grusch has looked at. I'd also trust the word of the senators privy to the information Grusch shared if they came forward and made this statement.
Kirkpatrick has already made statements that whilst not specifically in direct reply to Grusch, directly contradict the claims of Grusch, yet here you are.
 
Assuming such evidence exists. You're willing to assume it based on anecdotes by former officials of rank. You can certainly do that. But it's still naive and unscientific. And this is not snark. Metabunk is primarily concerned with finding and examining hard evidence to support anomalous claims.

Suppose for a moment that the big picture we've painted here about the influential UFO lobby, feedback loops, and modern folklore affecting observations by even non-believers let alone believers, is true, and that there really is nothing more to it. Wouldn't it then be OBVIOUS that the DoD simply has nothing to hide, and therefore nothing more convincing to offer. But they'd still be damned for coverup.

I'm assuming he has, at the very least, the names of people, locations, and names of projects and companies involved in the things he's claiming they're involved in. I'm assuming he has these things because he outright says he does, under public oath, and very clearly stated that he is willing to share these things in a private setting. A colossally stupid thing to say if he weren't prepared to follow up on it.

That doesn't mean these names actually reveal what he thinks they reveal. They might be dead ends for all we know. But yes. I do take him at his word that he has in his possession the things he claims to. This isn't that controversial, nor requires any grand leap of logic or reasoning. If we aren't even willing to grant that he has the names of the 40ish people who he has interviewed and told him about these programs then, idk what to tell you.
 
I'm amazed none of the questioners asked about basic shapes or sizes of the craft or the morphology of the alien bodies (did they have two arms & legs, two eyes etc.) Surely even if Grusch hasn't seen these things directly he has the basic knowledge and could have characterised them without without having to go to a SCIF.
Not if he learned this hypothetical "basic knowledge" from classified sources and he wasn't cleared by DOPSR to discuss it publicly.
 
and what's with answers like this:

it's a yes or no or 'i dont know' question. about his belief, ie. not classified in anyway

2:06:50
"You say the government is in possession of potentially non-human space craft. Based on your experience and extensive conversations with experts, do you believe our government has made contact with intelligence/extraterrestrial?"

Grush "something i can't discuss in a public setting"
That was what most struck me. He repeatedly declined to say things he's previously said, on the grounds that he can't talk about it in a public setting. But he was in a public setting while making previous statements. Of course he was not then under oath and subject to charges of perjury when talking to the media.

(Edited to remove orphanned sentence fragment)
 
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I'm not sure why you think your question would be that difficult to answer unless you're under the mistaken assumption that I'm a Ufologist.

To give a lot of credence to the notion that Kirkpatrick hasn't been privy to the same anecdotal evidence (plus a few photographs, according to Grusch) as Grusch, does seem as if you've already been swayed by ufologist attempts to discredit Kirkpatrick's mundane conclusions thus far. Don't you think that's exacty what ufologists would claim?
 
When Fravor was seeing whatever he was seeing, nothing was showing on radar.
According to Kevin Day, they did indeed have this specific object on radar and it was marked.
See this transcript ... https://otter.ai/u/0OtR6GhjauIHKJIcAZbs5Qri1vc ... search for "merge" and that's one of Kevin Days' statements on this issue:

In fact, the only time they ever broke formation when Commander Fravor intercepting one of them, and that one that he intercepted, I drove them to the point in the sky 28,000 feet and as soon as he got what we call the merge plot position, which is two objects in the same vertical piece of sky. Then on a two dimensional display, it looks like one, they've merged, it's called merge plot, can't distinguish anymore, as soon as that, as soon as he was at that point in the sky, this object went from 28,000 feet down to the surface of the ocean. (...)
The did not see some of the details Fravor reported. But the object was identified on radar.
 
Kirkpatrick has already made statements that whilst not specifically in direct reply to Grusch, directly contradict the claims of Grusch, yet here you are.

I'll just quote myself in response because it speaks for itself:

"I'd trust Dr. Kirkpatrick if he came forward and made such a statement, but at this point we don't know if what he's looked at is the same stuff Grusch has looked at."

I don't know what he's looked at. I don't know if he's been told the same things Grusch has been told. I don't know if he's seen the same photos and documentation Grusch has allegedly seen. Since I don't know any of these things, I'm not going to make assumptions and inferences on the basis of those unknowns.
 
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