WTC7: Did the fires burn long and hot enough?

[Oxymoron]

She is a bit too scientific for me but I guess she must be right because she has all those certificates and letters after her name and I couldn't argue with that.

 

[muttkat]

When you only cherry pick something to get the answer you want, your conclusions will often be wrong

FACT: "There is no scientific basis for the conclusion that explosions brought down the towers," Lerner-Lam tells PM. "That representation of our work is categorically incorrect and not in context."

The report issued by Lamont-Doherty includes various graphs showing the seismic readings produced by the planes crashing into the two towers as well as the later collapse of both buildings. WhatReallyHappened.com chooses to display only one graph (Graph 1), which shows the readings over a 30-minute time span.

On that graph, the 8- and 10-second collapses appear â€" misleadingly â€" as a pair of sudden spikes. Lamont-Doherty's 40-second plot of the same data (Graph 2) gives a much more detailed picture: The seismic waves â€" blue for the South Tower, red for the North Tower â€" start small and then escalate as the buildings rumble to the ground. Translation: no bombs.

http://www.popularmechanics.com/technology/military/news/debunking-911-myths-world-trade-center

debunked, let's move on

Not only that but there were OTHER seismographs in the area and I notice that they are totally ignored. I wonder why?

The FDNY head honcho seemed to think there were bombs in the building.

 

[Jazzy]

She is a bit too scientific for me but I guess she must be right because she has all those certificates and letters after her name and I couldn't argue with that.

The way she dragged her knuckles put me off some. One doesn't have to imitate her if one doesn't wish to. (Pre-expurgated).

 

[muttkat]

Ah, Muttkat, Mynym, Wood and "dustiness".

It's possible to work out the height of a WTC tower when the air has been expressed from it.

Given the weight of a tower to be 450,000 tons and the SG of steel to be 7.81, the density of water 62.2 pounds per cubic foot. the length and width to be 210 feet and the height 1360 feet,.

The volume of the tower is 210 x 210 x 1360 = 6 x 10^7 cubic feet.

If it were solid steel it would therefore weigh 13 million tons. As it only weighed 450,000 tons, then the height of the steel alone would be 47 feet.

So 1360 feet becomes 47 feet.

How deep was the basement?

This is off the top of my head, about 7 stories.

 

[muttkat]

Yep there are a few debunkers on here who persistently reiterate that bunk. Like you say... if he had admitted it, would the FBI not include him on their list for it.

Excuse me Oxy, I used to have that saved on my favorites on my other computer. Like I said he was on the FBI's 10 Most Wanted List for OTHER BOMBINGS but not for 911 and the reason being that they didn't have enough evidence.

Islamic militant leader Osama bin Laden, the man the United States considers the prime suspect in last week's terrorist attacks on New York and Washington, denied any role Sunday in the actions believed to have killed thousands.
In a statement issued to the Arabic satellite channel Al Jazeera, based in Qatar, bin Laden said, "The U.S. government has consistently blamed me for being behind every occasion its enemies attack it.
"I would like to assure the world that I did not plan the recent attacks, which seems to have been planned by people for personal reasons," bin Laden's statement said.
"I have been living in the Islamic emirate of Afghanistan and following its leaders' rules. The current leader does not allow me to exercise such operations," bin Laden said.

http://archives.cnn.com/2001/US/09/16/inv.binladen.denial/index.html

 

[muttkat]

There is a topic for that, somewhere. Best go there.

Being the WTC 7 collapse pile was larger than 1 & 2's is there a different physics calculation for WTC 7?

 

[muttkat]

It's just floor 8.

Read the report. They go into extensive detail as to how they figured it out.
https://www.metabunk.org/files/NCSTAR_1-9_WTC7_unlocked.pdf

I can only wonder being that data wasn't taken for 4 days and samples until Sept 16 how inaccurate the data out there is, it is, because being water was diluting all the evidence, if someone was to accuse of nanothermite, tritium levels being present, they are called whatever and laughed at by some. Responders PAH levels weren't taken until 22 - 24 days later, environmental samples of residential buildings in lower Manhatten were taken from Nov 4 to Dec 11,2001and stating everything is OK, thermal images not taken until Sept 16, EPA lied, now responders are dying because of it, the New York Times having to sue to get the responders statements about what happened, apparently their statements contradict the official story & they are ridiculed by various persons on this site. Being the Bush Administration lied about WMD in Iraq, it was planned, lied about not knowing we were to be attacked, how we were to be attacked, FBI thwarted from investigating terrorists activities pre 911 or gagged, 911 Commission, a year and 2 months later which changes the timing of 911, can't track hijacked jets but can track space junk thats the size of paint flakes, dumpsters spray painted airplane parts here,...... The fact that NIST's has published findings that have not gone thru the peer review process & reports its findings on collapsed events that have never happened in the history of mankind and for you people to use it as some kind of Bible just makes me sit back and think.........You people who believe the official story believe a group of people who have lied, delayed, murdered, prevented investigations, have used extremely shoddy investigating and???????

 

[muttkat]

I can only wonder being that data wasn't taken for 4 days and samples until Sept 16 how inaccurate the data out there is, it is, because being water was diluting all the evidence, if someone was to accuse of nanothermite, tritium levels being present, they are called whatever and laughed at by some. Responders PAH levels weren't taken until 22 - 24 days later, environmental samples of residential buildings in lower Manhatten were taken from Nov 4 to Dec 11,2001and stating everything is OK, thermal images not taken until Sept 16, EPA lied, now responders are dying because of it, the New York Times having to sue to get the responders statements about what happened, apparently their statements contradict the official story & they are ridiculed by various persons on this site. Being the Bush Administration lied about WMD in Iraq, it was planned, lied about not knowing we were to be attacked, how we were to be attacked, FBI thwarted from investigating terrorists activities pre 911 or gagged, 911 Commission, a year and 2 months later which changes the timing of 911, can't track hijacked jets but can track space junk thats the size of paint flakes, dumpsters spray painted airplane parts here,...... The fact that NIST's has published findings that have not gone thru the peer review process & reports its findings on collapsed events that have never happened in the history of mankind and for you people to use it as some kind of Bible just makes me sit back and think.........You people who believe the official story believe a group of people who have lied, delayed, murdered, prevented investigations, have used extremely shoddy investigating and???????

And I couldn't get to that site.

 

[muttkat]

Floor 8 might not have had any fire at that level early on. It would take time for a well-insulated floor above a burning floor to actually catch fire by being heated from below. It looks quite possible to me. It is just the way fire spreads in an insulated building. Following Mick's reference should help you.

Or perhaps it was torched or blown up as Barry Jennings stated and that might of attributed to the fire. I would agree that there should of been a partial collapse but getting 2 building blown up and another having all the floors give out at the same time is BS.


There are different words here. "Cite" is a verb meaning to quote. "Site" is a noun meaning place.

I knew that.

Steel can be turned to dust only by evaporating it in a vacuum. That isn't possible except in a supernova. Your statement is wrong.

Your statement is only a half truth, nuclear reactions can produce similar reactions.

Evaporation involves two basic processes: a hot source material evaporates and condenses on the substrate. A underground, subsurface nuclear explosion is a very energetic hot source material especially in the fireball which can vaporize 1341 people, bend thick steel beams into horseshoe shapes, vaporize 45,000 desks, chairs, 3000 copying machines, 5000 copying machines,.... eject large pieces of buildings and embed it into other buildings.

A subsurface nuke explosion can also produce high temps, energetic radiation, intense electromagnetic fields...EMP, ESD's, melt door handles, engines,explode cars, which happened after the collapse of 1. 2, and WTC 7, fry electronics and most of the radiation effects were absorbed by the surrounding rock it vaporized and caused it to melt into globs of glass, people, steel, concrete, thus a piece being named "the meteorite." All these events which happened on 911. I'll prove it to you later if you don't believe it because you believe NIST.

When I looked up supernova I see the words shock wave, nuclear fusion, high temperatures, luminous, explosions....some of the things nuclear bombs do.

"She stated to La Voz de Aztlan that the two terrorists had taken advantage of a situation that occurred around 1700 hours of Wednesday October 10 when a large contingent of Sugar Industry Unionists were entering through the metal detectors".

It seems to be somewhat later than 911.

Your story is only a partial story.

That were impersonating press photographers except they forgot to leave their 9mm guns, dynamite, and hand grenades at the Hotel Mexico, where they were staying. lol Yes somewhat later Oct 12th. Before 911 and after, there seemed to be "MOSSAD Gone Wild" in the USA, doing dope deals, going to homes, having explosive residues found in their vans from a fake moving company, going to offices of high ranking military ...officials, getting into mischief but in the end they were quietly deported after serving long jail sentences of 2 months or so. In this day and age its good to be Jewish.


[...] No.

"A thick piece of steel (that is a piece with a high volume/surface area ratio) that got hot enough to soften, would if left alone end up permanently softened"

The pictures that showed the steel beams didn't state that. A responder stated there was a firetruck about 20 feet or so underground at the WTC that was staying in a semi liquified state still burning. That would of been neat to see.

can be rephrased as

Critical Temperatures. -- The "critical points" of carbon tool steel are the temperatures at which certain changes in the chemical composition of the steel take place, during both heating and cooling. Steel at normal temperatures has its carbon (which is the chief hardening element) in a certain form called pearlite carbon, and if the steel is heated to a certain temperature, a change occurs and the pearlite becomes martensite or hardening carbon. If the steel is allowed to cool slowly, the hardening carbon changes back to pearlite. The points at which these changes occur are the decalescence and recalescence or critical points, and the effect of these molecular changes is as follows: When a piece of steel is heated to a certain point, it continues to absorb heat without appreciably rising in temperature, although its immediate surroundings may be hotter than the steel. This is the decalescence point. Similarly, steel cooling slowly from a high heat will, at a certain temperature, actually increase in temperature, although its surroundings may be colder. This takes place at the recalescence point. The recalescence point is lower than the decalescence point by anywhere from 85 to 215 degrees F., and the lower of these points does not manifest itself unless the higher one has first been fully passed. These critical points have a direct relation to the hardening of steel. Unless a temperature sufficient to reach the decalescence point is obtained, so that the pearlite carbon is changed into a hardening carbon, no hardening action can take place; and unless the steel is cooled suddenly before it reaches the recalescence point, thus preventing the changing back again from hardening to pearlite carbon, no hardening can take place. The critical points vary for different kinds of steel and must be determined by tests in each case. It is the variation in the critical points that makes it necessary to heat different steels to different temperatures when hardening.

They are essentially in agreement with each other. The high volume to surface area would allow only very slow cooling, allowing the material to remain soft.

This point has no relevance to the collapses.

and when steel is subjected to temperatures in the 100's of 1000's, millions of degrees it gets real soft and has relevance to collapses which will be a guaranteed reaction.


This statement is FALSE. It has a partner with the suggestion that liquid fuel was recovered from a fire.

You are INCORRECT AGAIN, From the S H & E at Ground Zero

72,000 gallons of diesel fuel were stored in a tank (on basement level 7) for the WTC complex backup generator/power systems. Final status: The tank was eventually located and inspected. Although slightly damaged, no leaks were found. The fuel was removed.

 

[Oxymoron]

You are INCORRECT AGAIN, From the S H & E at Ground Zero

72,000 gallons of diesel fuel were stored in a tank (on basement level 7) for the WTC complex backup generator/power systems. Final status: The tank was eventually located and inspected. Although slightly damaged, no leaks were found. The fuel was removed.

Yes and 'Popular', (with the government and debunkers), Mechanics still has this bunk on their site to date:

Second, a fifth-floor fire burned for up to 7 hours. "There was no firefighting in WTC 7," Sunder says. Investigators believe the fire was fed by tanks of diesel fuel that many tenants used to run emergency generators. Most tanks throughout the building were fairly small, but a generator on the fifth floor was connected to a large tank in the basement via a pressurized line. Says Sunder: "Our current working hypothesis is that this pressurized line was supplying fuel [to the fire] for a long period of time."

NB Perhaps someone could induce them to remove the bunk... (even if it means closing the site as there is nothing left afterwards)

​

Read more: 9/11 Conspiracy Theories - Debunking the Myths - World Trade Center - Popular Mechanics ​

​

http://rense.com/general63/brutalpurgeofPMstaff.htm

The Hidden Hand Of The CIA, 911 And Popular Mechanics

A brutal purge of the senior staff at Popular Mechanics preceded the publication of last month's scandalous propaganda piece about 9/11. Pulling the strings is the grand dame of Hearst Magazines and behind the scene is her obscure husband a veteran propaganda expert and former special assistant to the director of the C.I.A.

The magazine pushing the government's 9/11 propaganda, Popular Mechanics (PM), is published by the Hearst family. Its March cover story, Debunking 9/11 Lies, has been exposed by credible researchers to contain numerous distortions and flawed conclusions. American Free Press revealed that Benjamin Chertoff, the 25-year-old senior researcher who authored the 9/11 article, is related to Michael Chertoff, the new Secretary of the Department of Homeland Security (DHS). The PM article illustrates how a propaganda method, used by dictatorships, is now being employed by the U.S. government: controlling mainstream media outlets to promote its version of 9/11.

The actions of Michael Chertoff concerning the events of 9/11, the non-investigation that followed, the USA PATRIOT Act, and the propaganda being disseminated in PM, are strikingly similar to actions attributed to the Nazi ministers Joseph Goebbels and Hermann Gvring.

 

[Mick West]

This thread is approaching retirement age. I'm going to do a little housekeeping, moving things into appropriate threads.

I'd like to encourage people to start new threads wherever possible. Long rambling threads like this are just chatting. Rather a waste of time.

 

[Jazzy]

This is off the top of my head, about 7 stories.

If true, it's a wonder that any of it appeared above ground level, isn't it?

It should be apparent to anyone that the only steel "dust" to be found was that produced when a hundred and six floors scraped past fifty-odd core columns in a rather rough manner, and that apart from that maybe ton of dust, ALL the rest remained on site as wreckage.

 

[muttkat]

Yes and 'Popular', (with the government and debunkers), Mechanics still has this bunk on their site to date:

Second, a fifth-floor fire burned for up to 7 hours. "There was no firefighting in WTC 7," Sunder says. Investigators believe the fire was fed by tanks of diesel fuel that many tenants used to run emergency generators. Most tanks throughout the building were fairly small, but a generator on the fifth floor was connected to a large tank in the basement via a pressurized line. Says Sunder: "Our current working hypothesis is that this pressurized line was supplying fuel [to the fire] for a long period of time."

NB Perhaps someone could induce them to remove the bunk... (even if it means closing the site as there is nothing left afterwards)

​

Read more: 9/11 Conspiracy Theories - Debunking the Myths - World Trade Center - Popular Mechanics ​

​

http://rense.com/general63/brutalpurgeofPMstaff.htm

The Hidden Hand Of The CIA, 911 And Popular Mechanics

A brutal purge of the senior staff at Popular Mechanics preceded the publication of last month's scandalous propaganda piece about 9/11. Pulling the strings is the grand dame of Hearst Magazines and behind the scene is her obscure husband a veteran propaganda expert and former special assistant to the director of the C.I.A.

The magazine pushing the government's 9/11 propaganda, Popular Mechanics (PM), is published by the Hearst family. Its March cover story, Debunking 9/11 Lies, has been exposed by credible researchers to contain numerous distortions and flawed conclusions. American Free Press revealed that Benjamin Chertoff, the 25-year-old senior researcher who authored the 9/11 article, is related to Michael Chertoff, the new Secretary of the Department of Homeland Security (DHS). The PM article illustrates how a propaganda method, used by dictatorships, is now being employed by the U.S. government: controlling mainstream media outlets to promote its version of 9/11.

The actions of Michael Chertoff concerning the events of 9/11, the non-investigation that followed, the USA PATRIOT Act, and the propaganda being disseminated in PM, are strikingly similar to actions attributed to the Nazi ministers Joseph Goebbels and Hermann Gvring.

I was going to mention they're being related but you did it for me. I always thought they being related had something to do with Popular Mechanics inaccurate views.

 

[muttkat]

It has gotten a bit messy but in fairness a lot of that was in response to direct questions.

Just to finish off on the fake OBL tapes:

http://www.prisonplanet.com/bin_laden_tape_a_fake_swiss_lab_says.htm

PARIS (AP) - The latest audiotape statement attributed to accused terrorist mastermind Osama bin Laden is not authentic, a Swiss research institute said.

The Lausanne-based Dalle Molle Institute for Perceptual Artificial Intelligence said it is 95-per-cent certain the tape does not feature the voice of the long-absent terrorist leader.
The review of the tape was commissioned by France-2 television and its findings were presented by the institute's Professor Herve Boulard in a special TV report shown late Thursday.
He said the institute compared the voice on the tape, first aired two weeks ago on Al-Jazeera, an Arabic television network, with some 20 earlier recordings of bin laden.
U.S. experts maintain the tape will likely never be fully authenticated because its poor quality defies complete analysis by even the most sophisticated voice-print technology.
But U.S. experts who have heard it generally support the conclusion by U.S. law-enforcement officials that it probably is bin Laden speaking.
In the tape, the speaker refers to recent terrorist strikes U.S. officials believe are connected to bin Laden's Al Qaeda network. If fully verified, it would provide the first evidence in a year that bin Laden survived U.S. bombing in Afghanistan.

Its amazing that a reporter was able to find Bin Laden in those hills but the US govt couldn't. At one time either Kenya or Sudan had him for the US authorities & the US govt didn't come get him.

"If Osama thinks he can hide and run from the US & our alies he will be sorely mistaken."--Bush jr 9/15/01

"I don't know where he is. You know I don't spend that much time on him, Kelly, and to be honest with you...I don't know where he is....I...I'll repeat what I said. I'm truly not concerned with him."--Bush jr
3-13-02

 

[Cairenn]

What reporter was that?

It bothers me when folks do the Jr thing with Pres. George W Bush 's name, since he isn't a junior. And I don't even like him, but it shows a dismissiveness of Facts to me. If you will do that to lessen him, then you do the same about others. This is not misspelling or grammar, it is altering the facts.

 

[muttkat]

Its amazing that a reporter was able to find Bin Laden in those hills but the US govt couldn't. At one time either Kenya or Sudan had him for the US authorities & the US govt didn't come get him.

"If Osama thinks he can hide and run from the US & our alies he will be sorely mistaken."--Bush jr 9/15/01

"I don't know where he is. You know I don't spend that much time on him, Kelly, and to be honest with you...I don't know where he is....I...I'll repeat what I said. I'm truly not concerned with him."--Bush jr
3-13-02

Would that be the same thing as stating King Obama or Nobama?

 

[muttkat]

What reporter was that?

It bothers me when folks do the Jr thing with Pres. George W Bush 's name, since he isn't a junior. And I don't even like him, but it shows a dismissiveness of Facts to me. If you will do that to lessen him, then you do the same about others. This is not misspelling or grammar, it is altering the facts.

Oh, the reporter was Kelly.

 

[Mick West]

Bin Laden video discussion excised to:
https://www.metabunk.org/threads/evidence-that-osama-bin-laden-was-involved-in-9-11.1848/

 

[Mick West]

And if I have the time I'm going to excise the various conversations into separate threads tomorrow.

 

[Mick West]

I'm locking this thread because it's gone vastly off topic.

New topic in new threads please. I'll make a "dustification" thread.

Dustification:
https://www.metabunk.org/threads/wtc-the-dustification-of-steel-judy-woods-theory.1946/

 

[Mick West]

If someone wants to continue a discussion, then start a new thread, and include a link back to the last post on that topic here. If necessary/possible I will move the preceding posts into the new thread.