The Westall School Incident

[NoParty]

We have one witness Terry...

A bit off topic, but have you ever explained why "Three-Dollar Kit"?

 

[purpleivan]

A bit off topic, but have you ever explained why "Three-Dollar Kit"?

I've got to say, you're not the only one who's been curious about that. Thought about that on and off for the last few years, since coming across the site in relation to the Travis Walton "abduction".

 

[Mendel]

I've got to say, you're not the only one who's been curious about that. Thought about that on and off for the last few years, since coming across the site in relation to the Travis Walton "abduction".

Her blog says the Travis Walton case inspired the name, though I can't figure out how.

 

[purpleivan]

Her blog says the Travis Walton case inspired the name, though I can't figure out how.

Ah, I didn't know that. I came across the site and read the sections about the Travis Walton and the Hill's "abduction" and read those. Then, only later, did I see the the blog section and read that, but for some reason didn't read the early parts of it.

 

[Charlie Wiser]

A bit off topic, but have you ever explained why "Three-Dollar Kit"?

Travis Walton's case was the first (along with the Hills) that I looked into in 2021 when I made the site. I liked Raymond E. Fowler's theory that two crewmembers fooled the other five in order to have plausible witnesses. (Karl Pflock also suggested this idea.) In a letter to Allen Hynek, Fowler suggested the mocked-up UFO might be a balloon kit similar to this, which cost three dollars:

 

[Scaramanga]

We have one witness Terry who says she saw the landed craft in the Grange and got close enough to feel its heat. (Again I'm ignoring Victor who claims he along with many other witnesses saw two craft for two hours alongside the school - nobody else corroborates this and his timing doesn't work.)

Terry's testimony in terms of what she saw, what she did, what the UFO did, and who else was there, has changed drastically over the years in ways that bad memory can't account for. And there's no evidence she told any other students at the time. Nobody corroborates it, including another student Tanya whom Terry claims was present at the Grange in varying states of hysteria or consciousness.

I don't think it's worth going into detail for discussion here, but (at the risk of self-promotion) I've collected her stories over the years and compared them here (scroll down to "Case study: Feeling the heat") with quotes and linked sources. As an example of how her story got more and more amazing, she initially told Shane Ryan (reported in Yahoo Groups in 2007, and in his doco 2010) that the UFO was rising up in the air and overhead when she arrived at the Grange, but by 2016 the UFO was landed in front of her for a few minutes before taking off (so she had time to approach and feel its heat).

No, I am quite certain I have seen a documentary in which one of the boys ( who is interviewed for the documentary ) clearly states that there was a purple glow around the edge of the object, and that he actually got onto the object briefly. I suppose I'm gonna have to find it.

Also, you can't just invent which bits of testimony are reliable and which aren't. There are numerous court cases where people have added to testimony and their later testimony turns out to be more accurate than an initial one. Even in my own UFO report ( 1977 ) I failed to initially add that the UFO changed shape...because that just seemed a little too crazy. You can't just automatically assume that later evidence is 'embellished'. And there's a certain level of double standards with regard to later testimony....for example the Rendlesham case where later evidence by Halt and other witnesses is 'embellished'.....yet base Commander Conrad makes a statement 11 years later and nobody seems to question whether his memory is working fine or he is changing the story.

 

[John J.]

And there's a certain level of double standards with regard to later testimony....for example the Rendlesham case where later evidence by Halt and other witnesses is 'embellished'.....yet base Commander Conrad makes a statement 11 years later and nobody seems to question whether his memory is working fine or he is changing the story.

A point you made in post #662 of that thread. Respondents pointed out that Conrad hadn't changed his story or added new highly dramatic claims.
"...nobody seems to question whether... he is changing the story", because he hasn't.

Also, you can't just invent which bits of testimony are reliable and which aren't.

Where there are conflicting accounts, they can't all be objectively correct (even if all witnesses believe their accounts to be accurate).
Either some are largely correct and others significantly wrong, or they're all wrong.
The Westall School incident provided multiple witnesses to the same event. Some claim to have seen something unusual but explicable, and others claim to have seen something utterly extraordinary which involves e.g. visiting aliens as part of the explanation.

The accounts of the "unlikely but explicable" witnesses, who identified what they were looking at as a balloon, might be supported by the fact that balloons were being launched from Mildura and some drifted further than the distance from Mildura to Westall.

 

[Scaramanga]

A point you made in post #662 of that thread. Respondents pointed out that Conrad hadn't changed his story or added new highly dramatic claims.
"...nobody seems to question whether... he is changing the story", because he hasn't.

Well you can't add new dramatic claims to 'nothing happened'...without obvious inventing of material. But why do we assume that Conrad's statement after 11 years is factually correct ? Why do we take his word for it that nothing happened, yet cast doubt on Halt's claim that something did ? Is it not just as possible that someone could do the reverse of embellishing the story...and relate 'nothing to see here, folks' when they know stuff did actually happen ?

 

[Ann K]

Well you can't add new dramatic claims to 'nothing happened'...without obvious inventing of material. But why do we assume that Conrad's statement after 11 years is factually correct ? Why do we take his word for it that nothing happened, yet cast doubt on Halt's claim that something did ? Is it not just as possible that someone could do the reverse of embellishing the story...and relate 'nothing to see here, folks' when they know stuff did actually happen ?

I understand, a verbal report is always subject to question: is it true, is it a misinterpretation, is it a deliberate falsification? But we were discussing the additional factors of the fallibility of memory and the tendency of humans to embellish. Telling a different story after a long period of time opens up the possibility of either or both of those confounding factors to be in play. Telling the same story does not.

 

[Charlie Wiser]

No, I am quite certain I have seen a documentary in which one of the boys ( who is interviewed for the documentary ) clearly states that there was a purple glow around the edge of the object, and that he actually got onto the object briefly. I suppose I'm gonna have to find it.

Also, you can't just invent which bits of testimony are reliable and which aren't. There are numerous court cases where people have added to testimony and their later testimony turns out to be more accurate than an initial one. Even in my own UFO report ( 1977 ) I failed to initially add that the UFO changed shape...because that just seemed a little too crazy. You can't just automatically assume that later evidence is 'embellished'. And there's a certain level of double standards with regard to later testimony....for example the Rendlesham case where later evidence by Halt and other witnesses is 'embellished'.....yet base Commander Conrad makes a statement 11 years later and nobody seems to question whether his memory is working fine or he is changing the story.

I have all the Westall interviews and posts I could find over the years, transcribed, and there's no result searching on purple (glow). I think a primary school child (as an adult) came out with a story of seeing aliens in the UFO, but nobody else to my knowledge.

For Terry's testimony in particular, it seems absolutely clear that she embellished her story. Not reporting that your UFO changed shape is not on the same level as the differences in her story. You can't walk up to a landed UFO and forget you did that, and instead report decades later that it was already taking off when you arrived... and then re-remember it was actually landed for several minutes. It's nonsense. And if you did have such a weird memory, you'd surely comment on it and try to explain it. But she acts like she's unaware of it - or, from my perspective, she's hoping nobody notices. Standing next to a landed UFO, that you just watched disappear behind trees to its landing spot, is an absolutely remarkable event that you don't misremember and then re-remember. Let alone not tell your schoolmates about at the time, even while they're telling their own stories of the same event.

If she really did run to the Grange it's possible she saw a glimpse of the Hibal balloon (though IMO the evidence shows it landed in a field southeast of the Grange) that she is now describing as a landed UFO with flashing lights, giving off heat. (Although, that doesn't explain her changing story.) But it's extremely odd that she told nobody about it at the time, and was not visited by "men in black" like the other two girls were who ran to the Grange. (I think it's quite likely the men in black story is true, that the authorities wanted to see how the girls interpreted what they saw - and indeed Tanya was told it was an experimental balloon... which IMO was true.)

 

[Charlie Wiser]

In support of the above, this is how Tanya described the visit to Coulthart in his 2021 report for Channel 7 News Spotlight "Secrets of the UFOs":

Tanya: They didn't want me to speak of the incident to absolutely anybody. And because it was "in the interest of national security, so we want you to keep this under your belt and not discuss it with anybody."
Host: Did they try and explain to you what it was?
Tanya: Yes, they did. One of them actually told me that it was a very special weather balloon.
Coutlhart: Did you believe it?
Tanya: No, not even - not at the age of 12. I knew better. I know what I saw and it was definitely not a balloon.

Source: Secrets of the UFOs, Ross Coulthart, 2021 (timestamped)

 

[JMartJr]

UFO skeptics should avoid the temptation to make a game of "take a drink every time somebody says "I know what I saw.""

 

[Scaramanga]

I understand, a verbal report is always subject to question: is it true, is it a misinterpretation, is it a deliberate falsification? But we were discussing the additional factors of the fallibility of memory and the tendency of humans to embellish. Telling a different story after a long period of time opens up the possibility of either or both of those confounding factors to be in play. Telling the same story does not.

One of the reasons I want to get hold of my own 1977 UFO report is precisely to see how my memory of it 49 years later matches what is in the report made on the day of the event. Bear in mind, also, that I had no idea at that time that the Police even had official UFO reporting forms...which I filled in. But I do recall that I did not report everything ( such as the object initially being a sphere and then changing shape ). In fact I can fully see how, for example, Penniston's initial report of the Rendlesham 'craft' was quite basic. Of course people can embellish stuff later....but I do not think one should automatically presume they are doing do. At least, not unless later statements seriously contradict earlier ones.

 

[Mendel]

One of the reasons I want to get hold of my own 1977 UFO report is precisely to see how my memory of it 49 years later matches what is in the report made on the day of the event.

then write down now what you think you wrote then, so you have committed to something you can compare

 

[derwoodii]

This aired last night as the event was 60 years ago

The Westall UFO Mystery

Duration: 30 minutes 32 seconds30m
In 1966, a Melbourne high school was thrown into chaos when strange objects appeared in the sky. Sixty years on from Australia's biggest UFO sighting, witnesses are still looking for answers about what they saw at Westall.


https://iview.abc.net.au/video/NC2602Q009S00

 

[Minus0]

Project Hibal. - he is a technician who worked on the Hibal project at Mildura during this timeframe and wrote a memoir] This field is visible from the offices to the southeast of the school/Grange, and Shane Ryan has witnesses who saw activity there.

Neat video showing a launch from Mildura

Source: https://youtu.be/wOzXtePz7kA

Would not be surprised if this was misinterpreted as a flying saucer while it slowly came down above the ground

 

[Charlie Wiser]

This aired last night as the event was 60 years ago

The Westall UFO Mystery

Duration: 30 minutes 32 seconds30m
In 1966, a Melbourne high school was thrown into chaos when strange objects appeared in the sky. Sixty years on from Australia's biggest UFO sighting, witnesses are still looking for answers about what they saw at Westall.
https://iview.abc.net.au/video/NC2602Q009S00

Thanks - and urgh, there is so much misinformation and twisting of facts in that presentation - starting with James Fox at 1:45:

The significance of the Westall case is the sheer volume of eyewitnesses saying the same thing that they did 60 years ago.

Later the number of witnesses is given as 300, but even if we take the ~10 witnesses interviewed here (as adults), only 3 of them said anything on record in 1966 (two girls Joy and Marilyn, and science teacher Andrew Greenwood), so how can we possibly know there's a "sheer volume" of 10 or 300 or whatever saying the same thing 60 years ago as today?

 

[Charlie Wiser]

Would not be surprised if this was misinterpreted as a flying saucer while it slowly came down above the ground

The technician I spoke with (pseudonym Steven Thorn, who wrote a memoir of his time on the program in the 60s), identified this *witness illustration (R in the composite) as a deflating Hibal (that is, one with a slow leak because of a malfunction when the payload was released, which is supposed to destroy the balloon). Note the band across the middle:

*This witness wasn't at the school, he was 40km away earlier in the morning so it seems likely this was the same object.

A Westall witness drawing (Phyll T):

And this is what a functional Hibal looks like at high altitude:

A couple of witnesses (as adults) said it had lights around the edge.

Other witness descriptions - note these could all plausibly be a deflating Hibal, but the descriptions the media likes to focus on are the "flying saucer" ones.

"it seemed to have two parts (like it was two-storied), with a flat saucer-like bottom, on top of which was something like a dome." (Tanya)
"somebody's got some way of projecting a film of something into the sky" (Paul S)
"silver space blankets"... "Everyone knew it was rubbish blowing around until someone yelled, flying saucer. Then mass hysteria took over." (Rob N)
"I could see that it was just a large deflated balloon" (Peter A)
"I'm convinced it was a half flat weather balloon." (Jack T)
"It appeared to be floating as if being carried through the air by the breeze [like] a shoal of fish swimming very slowly through the ocean." (Jelte H)

The only contemporaneous illustrations:

I wrote more about the Hibal program in relation to the Westall incident here with sources for the above quotes.