The Origins of AAWSAP

[boringrealit]

What would you have them do? They have no subpoena power. Should they get the FBI or the ATF to mount a SWAT like raid on Lockheed and Raytheon where they bust down the door and confiscate all the servers and find the UFOs? This all assumes Lockheed and others actually HAVE recovered UFOs. IF in fact, they do not have UFOs, then saying "no we don't have any" would pretty much be the end of the story.



Again, something like AARO has no subpoena power. They can't demand people come talk to them and they can't force anyone to give up their sources.

Take Grusch for example. He claims many people, or as you keep putting it "high ranking people" have told him all about various UFO programs and aliens. Having made these claims, he wont say who told him these things. Now what? How do you propose AARO or anyone else investigate these claims? Grusch has refused on multiple occasions to cooperate with AARO, so they're dead in the water as far as Grusch and his claims are concerned. They can talk to others, like Davis who is likely one of Grusch's sources, but even then anybody that talks to AARO is kept anonymous. Grusch has also yet to show up for any SCIF sessions AFAIK where he might, but doesn't have to, share his sources.

So, what does one investigate if the ones making the claims don't cooperate?

One can try to triangulate with various claims to discern patterns. Grusch, Davis and Elizondo have made multiple claims about a UFO that crashed and was captured in Italy in ~1939 and eventually ended up in the US. They all tell this story in the media and they all make it seem like it's a quasi-classified event that they know about because of their connections. They likely heard it from each other, Grusch getting it from Davis. They're each other's sources.

There is nothing classified about the story, even a dumb-ass like myself was able to track down the various components that make it up. Some likely forged documents, an old UFO magazine and the ramblings of serial fantasizer got jumbled together. Link below.

So, we have Grusch saying he heard all these UFO claims from "high ranking people" and then he shares a sorta secret story about an Italian UFO. Davis claims to be one of Grusch's sources and he shares the same Italian UFO story. The story isn't secret at all. It's a continuation of the captured and reverse engineered UFO trope that goes back for decades. A trope the likes of Davis and Puthoff and Vallee have been talking about for decades.

There are a few "high ranking people" that are into esoterica and UFOs, including Alexander and Stubblebine in the past and people like Gallaudt more recently, but they are few and far between. I think the vast majority of the supposed sources for UFO programs are from a small number of people that keep circling back around to repeat their self full-filling beliefs.

And here's a great example of false claims and ARRO doing exactly what you wanted them to do. Recall from the Dolan video you shared in post #147, according to Dolan, reading Vallee's work, Puthoff was told about General Sheehan "touching a craft":

15:50
Vallee writes sheen (Sheehan) then told the story of his boss instructing him to take a flight to a certain facility.

Valet (Vallee) writes presumably a Lockheed site. That's interesting. Where he saw and touched a craft.

He also said he would honor his secrecy oath and not reveal more. However, he did say he did acknowledge that he found

a nine billion dollar discrepancy in some budgets which led him to uncover

the project. This is all valet (Vallee) describing this.

And here we have ARRO being told the same story, but in this case they could track down the supposed sources, who said the event was not about UFOs:

View attachment 90142

We know that Mellon sent Puthoff, Davis and Elizondo to AARO as "whistle-blowers".

We know that Puthoff, Davis and others were involved in AAWSAP/AATIP, NIDS, TTSA and other private programs

And AARO said the participants of AAWSAP/AATIP and related private organizations (TTSA, NIDS?) were responsible for much of the UFO/crashed retrieval claims (pg 36):

View attachment 90145

And since AARO has to keep people anonymous, they assigned numbers to them:
View attachment 90144

And one can try to figure out who is who from this list:

View attachment 90143


But this is AARO doing what you claim they didn't do. Someone, likely Davis or Puthoff repeated the story of, likely Sheehan, touching "a craft" but with the UFO angle. AARO tracked down, likely Sheehan, and he denied the claim or at least clarified it as not a UFO.

Again, the source for most of these claims is the same small group just repeating things over and over. Not an organized pysop.

Italian UFO thread:
https://www.metabunk.org/threads/claim-a-ufo-crashed-in-1933-italy-and-the-us-recovered-it.13282/

They probably should have subpoena power then, but they are at least able to take part of classified material, maybe not to high enough level. I don't remember how that mess ended, but if they are unable to do their job because of lack of power or secrecy, then they are inherently worthless and has the opposite effect. People will ask "if UFOs aren't real, then why do they have so high classification?" Which makes the whole project look bad, besides that they don't seem to be able to do normal things like create a homepage in a years time or use their twitter account until they get shamed to start posting. All they have to do is go to the sources, go to the locations check up everything. But I bet they haven't even heard the IGs (who probably should have done all this already).

Besides that, their total lack of transparency is another issue. Another reason why people don't trust them. If Grusch calls them out, then they have to disprove his claims by being open and supportive. Or at least make people think they are. But their directors stay almost totally silent - until they left to position and goes on podcast-tour. That looks extremely bad. Do you see why I think they intentionally tries to fail? They don't try to disprove, debunk or convince. All they've done is make the disclosure-movement look important and necessary by their lack of transparency.

They even made congress look good in comparison! Congress at least have open hearings and travels to places to look at crafts or whatever. And of course, the message from congress is "aliens and UFOs are real, probably demons too". This are the people that AARO made look more trustworthy by failing at basic communication.

But personally, I find the "asking the corporation if they are hiding UFOs" to be the worst. Most people don't read the report, but those that do are UFO nuts and they will just find that provocative. Again the opposite effect - unless that is exactly the effect they want: to mobilize the Disclosure movement.

 

[Mendel]

I am really concerned about all of the unsubstantiated misleading claims you are casting into this discussion. Please look for evidence!

No. Or rather, we'll see when the second half of the reports comes out. If it ever comes out. AARO is probably canceled before then.

I'll just say given their track-record from the first part, I have no faith at all in them. Their level of investigation was to ask the accused corporations "are you hiding anything UFO-related?" and when they said "no", that was it. No wonder no one trusts them. Which is exactly what I mean when I say that creation of distrust looks intentional.

It's in the first volume, and other things they've released. They have been finding what people thought were UAP programs, and identifying them. @NorCal Dave named some examples above.
That's an excellent level of investigation and transparency.

Wasn't that report supposed to come out in 2023 btw?

I can't find how much money they have gotten, other than 11 million for 2024. Might be USG's least effective program.

I don't deny that any kind of UAP program is wasted money on some level. Though the sensor research AARO has been doing seems useful.

They probably should have subpoena power then, but they are at least able to take part of classified material, maybe not to high enough level. I don't remember how that mess ended, but if they are unable to do their job because of lack of power or secrecy, then they are inherently worthless and has the opposite effect.

AARO has always maintained that their access to classified material is sufficient for their purpose. Anything else are unfounded rumors spread to discredit AARO.

Besides that, their total lack of transparency is another issue. Another reason why people don't trust them. If Grusch calls them out, then they have to disprove his claims by being open and supportive.

Grusch is far less transparent than AARO is. I could not tell you a single hard fact that Grusch revealed in his Congress hearing.
For AARO to examine Grusch's claims, Grusch would need to respond to their interview offer and sign a witness statement. He has not done that. I do not know of any claims Grusch made that are specific enough to be investigated.

But their directors stay almost totally silent - until they left to position and goes on podcast-tour.

That is false, too.

 

[John J.]

....the government is actually saying "UFOs are real and we are hiding them,

No it isn't!
What individual representatives or senators might say or believe is not the same as the standpoint or policy of the USG, even if they're from the party of government.

And those that have actually done investigations of the claims that USG are hiding UFOs have come out in support of the claim.

You need to start posting checkable sources for claims like this. I'm sure there are on-line "investigators" and others who are "in support of the claim".
As far as I know, The White House isn't and no government agency is.

Re. the 2022 United States Congress hearings on UFOs,

Rep. Tim Burchett (R-TN), attended the hearing despite not being a member of the committee. He criticized the Pentagon's transparency and their dismissiveness of the notion that the UFOs could be extraterrestrial aircraft.

Wikipedia https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2022_United_States_Congress_hearings_on_UFOs, my emphasis.

In response to the July 2023 Congressional hearings in which David Grusch stated his case,

White House Press Secretary Karine Jean-Pierre referred questions about Grusch's complaint to the Department of Defense (DoD). In a statement, Sue Gough, spokesperson for the Pentagon, said: "To date, AARO (All-domain Anomaly Resolution Office) has not discovered any verifiable information to substantiate claims that any programs regarding the possession or reverse-engineering of any extraterrestrial materials have existed in the past or exist currently. AARO is committed to following the data and its investigation wherever it leads."

General Mark Milley, the chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, gave an interview to The Washington Times on August 6, 2023, in which he stated that he had never encountered evidence that would verify the claims made by Grusch regarding "quote-unquote 'aliens' or that there's some sort of cover-up program". Milley added that he was unsurprised that such rumors would circulate and be believed by some within an organization as large as the U.S. military

NASA stated: "One of NASA's key priorities is the search for life elsewhere in the universe, but so far, NASA has not found any credible evidence of extraterrestrial life and there is no evidence that UAPs are extraterrestrial.

Representative Mike Turner, the chairman of the House Permanent Select Committee on Intelligence, said, "every decade there's been individuals who've said the United States has such pieces of unidentified flying objects that are from outer space" and that "there's no evidence of this and certainly it would be quite a conspiracy for this to be maintained, especially at this level"

Quotes from Wikipedia, David Grusch UFO whistleblower claims https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Grusch_UFO_whistleblower_claims

So that's AARO, NASA, the Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, the chairman of the House Permanent Select Committee on Intelligence all denying, or publicly disagreeing with, "claims that USG are hiding UFOs". The White House referred questions to the Pentagon, which cited AARO.

The government is not saying "UFOs are real and we are hiding them".

I would rather the disclosure movement, David Grusch, Rep. Luna, Jim Lacatski etc. etc. found something else to be interested in; preferably while choosing to understand and follow relevant evidence. I think their views on UFOs/ UFO retrievals are at best mistaken and misguided.
But their views are not illegal (even if they are, IMO, damaging) and perhaps do less harm than the views held by some US politicians, "influencers" and self-styled investigators about anthropogenic climate change and vaccines (amongst other things).

...the message from congress is "aliens and UFOs are real, probably demons too".

Source? Did Congress have a vote on this? Issue some declaration? Or are you referring to the opinions of individual members of Congress?

 

[NorCal Dave]

But personally, I find the "asking the corporation if they are hiding UFOs" to be the worst.

You've made that abundantly clear, but have so far failed to recommend what you think they should have done instead.

Grusch, Puthoff, Davis and others have claimed, without any evidence, that contractors like Lockheed have UFOs. These are un-evidenced claims that AARO is now supposed to debunk or investigate.

How would you suggest they proceed?

If Lockheed says they don't have any UFOs, then how would you suggest AARO proceed?

What do you think they should do in this situation?

If Grusch calls them out, then they have to disprove his claims by being open and supportive.

Supportive of who? Or what? No. Grusch is the one making the claim, the burden of proof is on him. If you want AARO to debunk Grusch, then he should get his ass in to an interview with AARO. Which he wont.

Grusch claimed there was a secret UFO retrieval programs in the government. While he did not make this claim to AARO and they don't really need to answer to his claims made in the media, others made similar claim to AARO and they responded:

They found NO EVIDENCE to support anybody's claim, including Grusch, of UFO programs as described. As Grusch has never spoken to AARO and has NEVER revealed any of his sources, that's about all that can be done.

Again, what are you suggesting needs to be done that wasn't, besides them farting around on Twitter?

Congress at least have open hearings and travels to places to look at crafts or whatever.

AARO cannot have open hearings as all they people they talk to are anonymous in the public reports. Like the lack of subpoena power, that's just the way Congress set it up. When Puthoff and Davis spoke to AARO, their names were redacted.

What Congress people "traveled to places to look at crafts"? Luna, Geatz and some others went to Florida to see some photos. If any of them went and saw "craft", please source this claim.

Where do you think AARO should go to see "crafts"? Lockheed's skunk works? What if there are no "craft" to see?

What happens when some of the "high ranking people" that are the supposed sources are revealed? Like Davis' qusi-claim about Wilson. The source in question refutes the claims made about them. Wilson said categorically he did not talk to Davis and didn't know who he was and did not find a secret UFO program. Davis' claim is debunked, right? Wrong. The video you shared has UFOlogist Dolan using the standard conspiratorial logic that "absence of evidence isn't an absence, it's proof of the evidence":

12:28
...really wants to maintain that the Davis notes are fake and who say, you know, silly things like, well, you know, Wilson denied it, so we have to take him at his word. There are journalists literally who have this position. I cannot believe it. Or people who say, well, Davis won't confirm it.

Uh, yes, of course Davis is not going to confirm it. Of course Wilson's not going to confirm it. If if you read Davis's notes that he takes, Wilson actually said, "If this ever comes out, I'm going to deny it 100% 10,000%." It's obvious.

How could he possibly uh confirm that?

If Wilson denied making the statements and even Davis wont admit he was supposedly who Wilson was talking to, it means Wilson did say these things to Davis.

It's completely bassakwards and you're insisting AARO get to the bottom of all of this nonsense. Somehow.

 

[Mendel]

It's completely bassakwards and you're insisting AARO get to the bottom of all of this nonsense. Somehow.

Might as well ask AARO to investigate Close Encounters.

 

[Z.W. Wolf]

They probably should have subpoena power then, but they are at least able to take part of classified material, maybe not to high enough level. I don't remember how that mess ended, but if they are unable to do their job because of lack of power or secrecy, then they are inherently worthless and has the opposite effect. People will ask "if UFOs aren't real, then why do they have so high classification?" Which makes the whole project look bad, besides that they don't seem to be able to do normal things like create a homepage in a years time or use their twitter account until they get shamed to start posting. All they have to do is go to the sources, go to the locations check up everything. But I bet they haven't even heard the IGs (who probably should have done all this already).

Besides that, their total lack of transparency is another issue. Another reason why people don't trust them. If Grusch calls them out, then they have to disprove his claims by being open and supportive. Or at least make people think they are. But their directors stay almost totally silent - until they left to position and goes on podcast-tour. That looks extremely bad. Do you see why I think they intentionally tries to fail? They don't try to disprove, debunk or convince. All they've done is make the disclosure-movement look important and necessary by their lack of transparency.

They even made congress look good in comparison! Congress at least have open hearings and travels to places to look at crafts or whatever. And of course, the message from congress is "aliens and UFOs are real, probably demons too". This are the people that AARO made look more trustworthy by failing at basic communication.

But personally, I find the "asking the corporation if they are hiding UFOs" to be the worst. Most people don't read the report, but those that do are UFO nuts and they will just find that provocative. Again the opposite effect - unless that is exactly the effect they want: to mobilize the Disclosure movement.

What's your purpose here on Metabunk? What are you trying to accomplish with this argument?

 

[Ann K]

No, it isn't up to the witness. It is up to the police, relevant investigator, or whoever wants to know what's going on.

My opinion is that those who want to know "what's going on" are only the people who want "the proof" of UFOs, rather than "the truth". Neutral witnesses do not want the task, because neutral witnesses can't take those tall tales seriously. Nobody wants his resumé to say "led the team on a wild goose chase".

Serious people in the government have serious matters to attend to. Hunting alien craft from enemy countries is serious. Doing the same for some imagined extraterrestrial beings is not.