So, the rabbit hole is a deeper twistier maze than you first thought... now what?

[Warren K]

As I shared in my first-time newcomer post, I have a family member down the hole…

...way down…​

​

...way way WAY down…​

​

We didn't know it was this bad and we don't know where to start.

A bit of background

1. My wife and I, the kids, the lost individual we'll call "Jane", and everyone within our circle have undergone a "family trauma"—an event I can't share more about for a multitude of reasons but be sure we've all been affected. Our goal is to make sure we keep together while we work through these things. Some have sought counseling. The events of the trauma were/are not directly related to Jane's run down the rabbit hole… rather Jane's run started near daylight and as the event has turned her world upside down she has run deeper into the hole. It's possible she was deeper than we suspected beforehand, but the event has removed all stops, imho.
   
   The unfortunate part is that, though we've passed the "main event", we—especially Jane—are still dealing with real-world, non-emotional fallout in the wake of that event and will be for the foreseeable future.
   
   
2. In general, the familial relationships are decent, standard… ups and downs. Everyone is open and caring, communicative. All except one thing—Jane and I don't talk the subjects that line the walls in her hole. I've called her (and others) out on the carpet for offensive memes with less meat… back when I didn't realize these things needed more delicate handling. She and my wife talk more about these subject—I get updates as a third party. This evening, I was updated…

Before we get into the update…

I'll admit with some guilt that I haven't yet finished the book—it's right here on my desk alongside the rest of things that life has thrown at me, half hidden so the kids don't ask—but it is still an active item. A couple weeks back, my bookmark had surged to page 100 in our copy, "High Bypass Jet Engines" in Chapter 7 "Chemtrails", before life handed the book to my wife and me other things.

So far I know a few things:

• Keep the communications channels open;
• This is not going away on its own and needs to be dealt with directly, respectfully, and with sincerity and love.
• This is going to be a long slow battle (unfortunately life affords us little time for this, Jane is running faster than we can call after her), and Jane is going to have to do most of the work… we can only help point her at the exit.

Where we're at

After this evening's update, my challenge is how to organize this chaos, these seemingly disparate conspiracies so intricately woven together, or simply how to even wisely pick a piece and start.

Where Jane's alternative interests were historically in the paranormal and alternative medicines, recently we have found her deep within the anti-COVID-19-vax camp with that strongly tied to political agendas and business. Tonight we hit bedrock with (again, I'm a third party):

1. COVID has been made up by the Rothschilds. Frankly, this a family I know nothing about, but after a quick Wikipedia the anti-Semitic connotations of their involvement makes me ill.
2. Authorities are not human—we are "not alone". (I assume that to mean aliens…)
3. Vaccine is meant to mono-humanize (not sure what this means, reading from notes not mine, possibly to control us all as one?).

There was also some discussion on an expected press release from our Provincial health authorities next week where the consiracy-minded expect the gov't to shut everything down and people without a health passport will even be denied access to grocery stores. Set aside, how unlikely the gov't would ever be to turn people away from food, our COVID-19 numbers have been declining, and such an strong measures do not appear warranted. Jane has already express "the movements" position that if the lock-down doesn't occur, it will only be because of the power of the movement, that is, they're poised to steal credit for intervening in something that isn't likely to happen! (I got wind of this "proclamation" a few days ago and had already predicted this claim would be made in light of the favorable numbers).

There was also some mention of Trump in there fighting this cause. We're friggin' Canadian—get Trump out of my head-space already!
…and then, factor in:

• Previous conversations about the involvement of Freemasons and the Liberal Canadian federal government.
• COVID-19 has evolved from being man-made to now this evening being non existent.
• the vaccine from being connected with 5G networks… to being a population control…
• A re-budding of spiritual interest and an involvement with a local Catholic parish via a member who has potential fiduciary interests with Jane, and who may or may not be leading Jane further down the hole. We don't know this person, who Jane met as client seeking professional services and now considers a friend mere weeks later (professional services pending)—alarm bells have been ringing.

When my wife has these conversations with Jane, it's been described like a fire hose of thoughts.

Where now?

Anyhow, sorry… that's all a bit of a brain dump and I'm getting worked up. There's probably more to our mess than all this, and I'm sorry for barfing this all over your screens. We simply don't know where to turn…

So back to the beginning… where do we start in battling the conspiracies while still navigating the real-world "WTF" mess our family event has left us with?

I don't need a solution—how can anyone come up with a solution that accounts for my vaguely described family problems… I need strategy on the conspiracy front, or a way to even organize all these things I've never heard of before. It's overwhelming.

Either way this is more involved than debunking some inter-web troll on some random post, or the guy at work with unusual opinions. Please help. A sign-post or rough compass point even.

Thank you for reading.
Warren

 

[Mendel]

My thoughts; I haven't had a family member down the hole, just based on my online exposure to these problems.

So back to the beginning… where do we start in battling the conspiracies while still navigating the real-world "WTF" mess our family event has left us with

I wouldn't go to "battle" there. You recognize Jane is deep down the hole, unsettled by your family trauma, I don't expect she'll respond to rational argument. Identify and address her emotional needs first.

What you could have a careful eye out for is family members on the brink, who start doubting and might be sliding, whose hold on reality you could shore up with common sense thoughts (like your "they're not taking our food") and pointing out the fearmongering going on that never turns out quite like fearmongers predicted. Talking to family members about these issues (and listening to them! not fighting) protects the remainder of your family, who can then be models to Jane on healthier ways to deal with these CTs. This strategy also narrows down the scope and craziness of the issues you'll need to discuss.

If you are concerned about a person in the Catholic parish, find someone there to talk to who maybe knows that person (or knows a person who knows...). Catholics are generally not all that conspiracy-prone (though there may be exceptions), and that problematic person might already have a reputation in the parish. Find allies. Spirituality isn't a bad thing per se, especially when mainstream religions are concerned. (You don't need a "membership card" to talk to a pastor.)

The reddit forum r/QAnonCasualties supports people whose family members went down the rabbit hole, you're probably going to find more people in your type of situation there than you will find here. Metabunk is better suited to debunking claims that a Google search with the word "debunk" or "fact check" added can't deal with.

 

[NorCal Dave]

I need strategy on the conspiracy front, or a way to even organize all these things I've never heard of before. It's overwhelming.

Very sorry to hear what's happening Warren. If it's any consolation, as I type this my poor wife is on the phone with her brother dealing with their mother and step father and step siblings and...Oy Vey (and I'm not Jewish). I'm often reminded of a line from the movie Four Christmas's, "You can't spell families without lies"!

Mendel makes good points above. One of the problems your facing is that it sounds like your playing catch up in the conspiracy world. I'm thinking many of us on this forum are nodding our heads, "oh yeah I've heard that one" when we read each conspiracy theory you mentioned. There is a lot of good info on here for many of these theories and I'm sure people here will help find info on specific theories. But, yes, educating oneself on all of this BS can be very time consuming! I'm semi-retired and have time to look into these things, it can become it's own rabbit hole.

Either way this is more involved than debunking some inter-web troll on some random post, or the guy at work with unusual opinions. Please help. A sign-post or rough compass point even.

Just throwing this out, as I just heard my brother-in-law say "these things will work themselves out in time" to my wife.

Sometimes just sitting back may be the best strategy. Not saying you should do nothing, but maybe step back and ask yourself, "if I DO NOT challenge or otherwise try to debunk Jane's ideas, what would happen"? Not sure exactly where she fits into the family, but take a look at the amount of influence Jane has on others. If she's not converting lots of others to her beliefs, maybe just let her be for a bit?

The thing is, you (we) can't save someone from themselves. We can try find common ground and try to share what we learn, that is counter to what they may believe, but ultimately, like all of us, the believe what they believe. Sometimes, we just need to be ready to help out when they're ready, otherwise it sounds like you have enough to deal with. Hang in there brother.

 

[Mendel]

Common sense thoughts:

1. COVID has been made up by the Rothschilds. Frankly, this a family I know nothing about, but after a quick Wikipedia the anti-Semitic connotations of their involvement makes me ill.

Covid is all over the world, in every single hospital. There is no conspiracy that big that can be kept secret, people always talk. We have TV footage of Wuhan, Italy, NY in 2020 and lots and lots of personal twitter stories.

1. Authorities are not human—we are "not alone". (I assume that to mean aliens…)

Again, a) authorities are elected, b) authorities have families and acquaintances, c) someone (their doctors) would talk.

1. Vaccine is meant to mono-humanize (not sure what this means, reading from notes not mine, possibly to control us all as one?).

in most Western countries, ~70% of the population is vaccinated, but no evidence of evil effects has appeared; the people I know that have been vaccinated (including myself) haven't changed; vaccines used all over the world.

• Previous conversations about the involvement of Freemasons and the Liberal Canadian federal government.

in my experience, the freemason's control of world affairs is comparable to the Rotarians or Lions clubs, i.e. not a lot. The rest is paranoia because they keep some secrets to feel special. It's very hard for a government to keep important secrets, for two years! that don't involve a war.

• COVID-19 has evolved from being man-made to now this evening being non existent.

See above.
euromomo.eu mortality data shows that Covid strikes differently in different countries, depending on when the virus reached them, how quickly governments responded, and the general conditions in a country; this also applies to Canadian provinces (and to Sweden!). If an epidemic only exists if a government fails to protect its citizens from it, we're doomed.

• the vaccine from being connected with 5G networks… to being a population control…

if a small drop of clear liquid can phone home, our smartphones are way too big
Improvements in hygiene and health care have historically controlled populations, because people stopped having so many children when they found out that more of them reliably survive. When kids are a people's old age insurance, this is important.

• A re-budding of spiritual interest and an involvement with a local Catholic parish via a member who has potential fiduciary interests with Jane, and who may or may not be leading Jane further down the hole. We don't know this person, who Jane met as client seeking professional services and now considers a friend mere weeks later (professional services pending)—alarm bells have been ringing.

This may or may not be a problem, you need more information.
If you create a situation where Jane defends this person, that would strengthen their bonds; I expect your wife can best judge how to make your concerns known. But basically, you do need more information to figure out whether your concerns are justified or not. Don't become paranoid yourself!

 

[JMartJr]

Again, a) authorities are elected, b) authorities have families and acquaintances, c) someone (their doctors) would talk.

I agree with all that, but if I were talking to somebody stuck in conspiracy theories I don't know if I'd get into point "A" right away. Key to Q and many other conspiratorial systems is the idea that authorities are NOT elected, you just think that they are. Elections that come out a way they don't like are rigged, the "real" leaders aren't the ones you can see, etc. All that may have to be addressed at some point, but that is going to take a lot more than just an appeal to common sense to refute it. In any case, a disguised reptoid from Delta Pavonis 4, assuming they exist, might still win an election, so it doesn't really address the They Ain't Human concept.

 

[deirdre]

COVID has been made up by the Rothschilds. Frankly, this a family I know nothing about, but after a quick Wikipedia the anti-Semitic connotations of their involvement makes me ill.

A re-budding of spiritual interest and an involvement with a local Catholic parish via a member who has potential fiduciary interests with Jane, and who may or may not be leading Jane further down the hole. We don't know this person, who Jane met as client seeking professional services and now considers a friend mere weeks later (professional services pending)—alarm bells have been ringing.

no offense but it sounds like you might have a bit of a "rabbit hole" personality yourself. the fact that you jumped to "anti-semitic" concerns me.
the fact that you think a catholic church wants to steal "jane"'s money, also concerns me.
(ps. Jesus, the King of Kings, our Lord God.. was Jewish.)

Some Metabunk members jump to conclusions and "project" their ideas on what my intended meaning is in my comments. It's annoying, grossly unfair and sophomoric. I don't like them and I don't listen to them because of that.



Covid will end soon enough, i see no reason to bother with this at this time - 2 years in. I think you should concentrate on your emotional family trauma and the non-emotional fallout that came with it. Stress and a sense of no-control is the biggest factor in escaping into the rabbit hole. I feel that is where you can be beneficial to Jane.

It is, though, fair to tell this person she cannot be around the kids if she isn't masked or vaccinated, or whatever your family rules are. If she is talking or posting actual offensive things (vs things you are projecting are offensive), i think it is also fair to inform her that you dont want her doing such things in front of the kids. Of course if this is your wife's mother then you need your wife's permission.

For all the rest of it, i think you should just let your wife handle it. I think "Jane" is traumatized by an unrecognizable world, one that is moving in intolerable (ie. stupid) directions. and she is having trouble coping with that. Weltschmertz.
[h2][/h2]She is obviously comfortable talking to your wife -not you- so let her continue to do so.

 

[deirdre]

and just an empathy point to ponder:

my impression is that you came here to vent "to the choir", where you will be understood and feel accepted.

my impression is that Jane is doing the same thing. We all need to vent at times (it's healthy) and to be accepted when doing so. sounds like your wife, the Church, Jane's new friend are outlets she has found that will accept her as she vents. If she stops talking with your wife, then i'd be concerned.

 

[Mendel]

Key to Q and many other conspiratorial systems is the idea that authorities are NOT elected, you just think that they are.

Key to this fearmongering is the idea "but do we really know them", which works well regardless of whether it is true. For example, 1930s Nazi propaganda depicting jews as greedy powerhungry race bent on dominating decent people, even though everyone knew some jews and they were ok. The "some of my best friends are ..." trope plays into this.

People are ready to believe fear-confirming fantasy claims, over what they can see with their own eyes if they e.g. attend a local council meeting. And nowadays you can do that virtually! You can sit through 2 hours of raw WHO briefing footage, and without eerie music and fear-mongering commentary you're going to come away from that recognizing that these are just people trying to do their jobs as best they can, in ways you recognize from your own experiences.

The way to counter "they're aliens, and that's why they're doing this" is not to scramble to prove that they're not doing this, it is to say they're human too, and there are human reasons to do these things. Basically, the question is, "if what we hear from official sources is true, and you were an official responsible for everyone, what would you decide?" Obviously people too far down the rabbit hole will refuse to entertain this thought.

But if someone can still see that it's possibly just a human, then it's up to them to decide what they want to trust in: a world of humans where we're all just struggling to do our best, or a world of aliens that's entirely beyond our control, and where we're going to have to be fearful from morning to night without ever having any evidence that our fears are justified, except for the validation of others as fearful as ourselves, or those trying to sell us a miracle cure.

Your choice, based on the same evidence, is to either believe in an imperfect world run by humans, or a nightmare. Common sense makes this a clear choice.

And the key to opening up that choice is to counteract the dehumanizing propaganda with some human pictures: that the local mayor has kids that go to school with other kids; but the same mayor regularly meets with politicians on the State level etc. There's a network of humanity, of people doing people things. And that explains 95% of what you see on TV. (I'm leaving myself some leeway for corruption, but that's also human and fairly predictable.)

If you see a light in the sky, it could be a Chinese lantern, or it could be a UFO. There may be no way to prove this either way, but we should trust common sense, and distrust the people playing into our fears.

 

[deirdre]

i think it's scarier to think they are humans. at least if they were aliens, there would be hope that they'll decide to leave someday or catch one of those viruses, and die off, like in War of The Worlds.

 

[Sgt.Squarehead]

I found that the writings of Aleister Crowley (& books about him) were indirectly of great help to me in (mostly) escaping my own personal 'Rabbit-Hole':

"It must have a 'natural' cause." "It must have a 'supernatural' cause."

Let these two asses be set to grind corn.

Reading this, from an arch miscreant (and also privelleged insider) like Crowley made it all very clear to me!

So who is making money (or otherwise benefitting from) from Q-Anon?

PS - @Warren K - I think I'm recommending this much more for you than for 'Jane'...So many elements of her beliefs tie in exactly with the shenanigans of this old trickster! None of it is new or original, not even the aliens & shapeshifters...Crowley did the lot, a century ago:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aleister_Crowley

(Hope this meets with the links policy, not too sure how to summarise Crowley!)

 

[Warren K]

Thank you all for the responses, all of them.
…and again, thank you all for taking the time to even read my huge post.

It's going to take a few reads to fully digest your responses, but it all looks helpful, and I can't say I disagree with anything (at least, that I understand so far—I'll have to learn more about Crowley ) so perhaps I was just venting at the choir.

While I want to say specific thanks to many of the points made—and I likely will as I circle back—I want to first say thank you to @deirdre for calling out my own rabbit hole, or at least what may be some bad generalizations. I take no offense. With the contrast on public discourse turned so high in recent years it's easy to lose yourself along with the grey. So thank you.

I started writing a clarification, but it was becoming an essay. Clearly I need to unpack that some more but I do want to touch on the one part:

While I don't think the church is going to steal Jane's money, I'd be lying if I said the thought hadn't crossed my mind. I did dismiss it as extremely improbable nearly as soon as I had thought it, but it was there. So, it is something I need to check myself on.

My alarm-bell concern is more with the new friend as a professional representing Jane as I struggle to see how the financial dealings would be at arms-length. Jane had sought to hire this person for professional services and has now been taken under-wing to join this person's church and bible study group after disclosing the emotional baggage from the problem that ultimately resulted in her needing said services in the first place. This person was just "so easy to talk to". There may be nothing to it, friends help friends all the time, but that vulnerability is still a risk.

That we fear this individual or a new circle of church-based friends may be leading Jane farther down the her hole may be seated in the fact that we seem to see so much of the recent anti-vax/COVID content in our feeds (multiple sources, most not Jane) come coloured with the pen of the Christian conservative right. Now this is another point on which I must check myself as I suppose the Christian right is no more exclusive owner of these conspiracies than they are the exclusive provider of morality. It is probable they are victims of their own success in that their "brand" may simply be more identifiable than other brands especially the somewhat "brand-less" atheist crowd.

I can accept that I need to check myself on this, but the timing of Jane's seeming acceleration into free-fall and this convenient generalization would make this such an easy answer were it not so flawed. Ultimately, I cannot conclude anything from a mere suspicion, nor can I dismiss the suspicion simply because my generalization makes it too easy, all I can do is be mindful of the bias until we figure out where in fact her sources are.

There were other points and observations, but… essay. Thanks again for the prod, I think I needed that.


Otherwise, I suppose another high level take away after reading all of your responses is that there is no need to panic as I sure felt like doing that evening. In the end, as much synergy as our problem and the conspiracies have to play on Jane's emotions and mental state, they are otherwise mutually exclusive and do not form an honest feedback loop. That is, we can deal with them independently and as pointed out are probably best to do so.

Thank you all again.

I guess I have more reading to do to catch up.

 

[Mendel]

That we fear this individual or a new circle of church-based friends may be leading Jane farther down the her hole may be seated in the fact that we seem to see so much of the recent anti-vax/COVID content in our feeds (multiple sources, most not Jane) come coloured with the pen of the Christian conservative right. Now this is another point on which I must check myself as I suppose the Christian right is no more exclusive owner of these conspiracies than they are the exclusive provider of morality. It is probable they are victims of their own success in that their "brand" may simply be more identifiable than other brands especially the somewhat "brand-less" atheist crowd.

Generally speaking, catholics have been better at getting vaccinated than "unaffiliated" people, see my post at https://www.metabunk.org/threads/friend-has-fallen-into-covid-conspiracies.12058/post-259720 (white evangelicals are the worst).

But I've heard of anti-vax bishops and even a cardinal, so it definitely varies from place to place and from person to person.

You're welcome to post essays here, it may help you get your thoughts in order regardless of the responses.